July 1, 2010 12:18 am at 12:18 am #1056110mosheroseMember
“But does it necessarily follow that someone who wears a nice, clean, pressed, etc. blue shirt is not looking respectable?”
In the yeshivish world it is disrespectful to wear a colord shirt.July 1, 2010 2:01 am at 2:01 am #1056111kapustaParticipant
In the yeshivish world it is disrespectful to wear a colord shirt.
Uh, disrespectful to whom, exactly?
Where in the Torah does it say that someone has to wear a white shirt?July 1, 2010 3:16 am at 3:16 am #1056113
Disrespectful? Now Iv’e heard it all!!!July 1, 2010 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1056115bptParticipant
Is a white shirt with a Nautica logo on the pocket any more “yeshivish” than a blue shirt with no logo?
A Pushete Yid – (who is apparently nisht azoi pushit!)
You make a very interesting point. My boys wear white shirts. Oddly enough, logos on the pocket are not really an issue in HS past 9th grade, but once you hit bais medrash level, high end shirts are almost mandatory (think Brooks Brothers, Paul Fredrick, ect)July 2, 2010 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1056116
Unfortunately, people are enamored with the uniform and not the person wearing it.July 2, 2010 6:28 am at 6:28 am #1056117sof davar hakol nishmaMember
“Unfortunately, people are enamored with the uniform and not the person wearing it. “
yes but people do see past it. It may take time, but c’mon , i hope were not all THAT superficial.July 2, 2010 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1056118
yes but people do see past it. It may take time, but c’mon , i hope were not all THAT superficial.
The fact that people will reject other people sight-unseen because they don’t wear the uniform without even bothering to examine if there are other positive traits that the person has clearly shows that we ARE that superficial.
The WolfJuly 2, 2010 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1056119
“i hope were not all THAT superficial. “
i think that horse is long out of the barn.July 4, 2010 12:02 am at 12:02 am #1056120emoticon613Member
maybe i’m blind or maybe i never peeked at my brother’s and all my clients’ (i’m a housekeeper as a side job) shirts while i fold them, but i never saw any logo on any white shirt. on the other hand, i have seen logos on colored shirts.
and i would have to think very hard about marrying someone who did have a logo on his white shirt.
and i would NOT let my boys wear logos on their white shirts. it’s stupid. i’m a girl and i never wear logos.
that having been said, i still believe that white shirts are respectable for b’nei Torah. it’s plain and simple, and bekavodig at the same time.
just a question – why don’t rabbanim (note the term rabbanim, not rabbis) wear colored shirts?July 4, 2010 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #1056121
“why don’t rabbanim (note the term rabbanim, not rabbis) wear colored shirts?”
They are the ones who should wear the white shirts during the week so that we respect them and their roles.
But a Talmid should not dress as a Rebbe.
In the time of the Beit HaMikdash the white Bigdai Kehuna showed the special role of those who were most directly involved in the Divine service.
See the Gemara in Shabbos 119B. Different factors that led to the Desstruction of the first Temple are brought down: Rabbi Yitzchak says because they equated the great and small and Isiah 24:2, “And the nation will be like the Kohain…”. Later a reason is brought by Rabbi Yehudah because they disgraced Talmidei Chachamim (Torah scholars). If boys just past bar mitzvah dress like established Talmidei Chachamim, then it is very easy to disrespect rabbanim.
During the week for the rest of us when there is a a need to dress bekavodig, a solid light blue shirt will do.July 4, 2010 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1056122
emoticon613: Well said!
Josh: “They are the ones who should wear the white shirts during the week so that we respect them and their roles.”
Bnei Torah must also dress their part. While the uniform of Bnei Torah changed over the years, today it is a white shirt.July 4, 2010 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1056123
and i would have to think very hard about marrying someone who did have a logo on his white shirt.
Thus fulfilling the dictum of Chazal “al tistakel b’mah sheyesh bo ela b’kankan.”
The WolfJuly 4, 2010 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #1056124ch123Member
some of these logo-wearers, if they knew what type of people represent htose logos they wear, I’m not sure if they would be souch proud wearers…….July 4, 2010 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1056125
If we are to have any Kavod HaTorah we can not have entire communities dressed in the Levush of Talmidei Chachamim (Torah scholars).
Those who represent themselves to the world as Torah Scholars are held to a very high standard. This standard is so high that most of us are not there, and certainly not bar mitzvah boys who have not had many years to develop themselves to that standard.
To have teenagers carry the flag of “Bnei Torah” may spur some of them to these higher standards eventually, but the flag is going to get soiled.July 4, 2010 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1056126tzippiMember
So if someone, for whatever (obviously nefarious) reason, wears a non-white shirt he’s not begeder ben Torah anymore?
Wish I could find and link this, but last year sometime there was an incredible story in Yated about a Shuvu school and how the founder ran in to Shabbos, in a shul in the Shuvu city, in his painting clothes, and the brachos he got from the rebbe in whose shul he davened.
I personally don’t see not wearing a white shirt as something “off”, that we have to be dan lekaf zechus over, but for those who do, please be dan lekaf zechus as often as possible.July 4, 2010 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1056127emoticon613Member
josh – i disagree. i think it gives the boys a very powerful push upward, and it also causes them to act in the bekavodig manner of a ben Torah from that young age. where does it say that the disgrace of talmidei chachamim was caused by boys dressing like their rebbes?
i didn’t understand that bit about the kohanim, can you explain it again?
wolf – 🙂 it’s not true. i never said that the people wearing logos are any worse than those who do not wear logos, i said that those who do are not for me. maybe it’s because i was tortured through school by logo-wearers who were totally absorbed in themselves and what they could do to elevate their status, but i have this bad feeling about logo-wearers. of course, i said i would have to ‘think very hard’ about marrying someone who wears logos, not that i never would. i would have to make sure for myself that the logo isn’t reflecting something undesirable.
josh – hachitzonius meorrer es hapenimiyus. even if we’re not on such a high level, dressing like a talmid chacham can make it easier for us to get there.
tzippi – it’s a great story, but i think that the point was a different one, although i sort of see how it connects here. the point was that he was so involved in kiruv, avodas hakodesh, that he didn’t have time to change into ‘bekavodig’ clothes before davening. but what i’m saying here isn’t really that. i’m trying to define and find the reason for, what is considered bekavodig.July 5, 2010 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1056128tzippiMember
Emoticon613, I know that there is a difference and it’s not a situation you encounter everyday. But re the everyday situations: there is also looking at a person and trying to see where he’s coming from. It may not be from l’hachisland or other negative places.July 5, 2010 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1056129Yanky R.Member
A Jew dresses like a Jew. Its always was that way, from the time we were in Eretz Mitzrayim, and always should be that way. The uniform of the Jew may vary over time, but there is always a Jewish uniform.July 5, 2010 5:48 am at 5:48 am #1056130
Emoticon613, you are right the external influences the internal.
But having a bar mitzvah boy dressed as a Rebbe can have direct negative effects on him. He will look down on those not dressed likewise. He will disdain his secular high school studies. I have even seen such dress affect Kibud Av.
“dressing like a talmid chacham can make it easier for us to get there.”
In many cases it can come to make you think you are already there.July 5, 2010 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1056131
The pnimius is also meorrer the chitzonios.
Is my sons high school, the Rabbeim watch closely those who decide to wear only white shirts, and very often after observation discourage cetrtain boys from doing so. The official yeshiva dress code allows for blue and pinstriped shirts.
Wearing a white shirt announces your affiliation, the same way, lihavdil, wearing a baseball jersey announces the team you like to follow. Wearing the uniform does not you a member of the team and wearing a white shirt does not make you a ben torah. In the minds of many, since the outside impacts the inside, it stands to follow that wearing a white shirt makes one a ben torah and baal middos.July 5, 2010 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #1056132
“The uniform of the Jew may vary over time, but there is always a Jewish uniform.”
So, what IS the jewish uniform?July 5, 2010 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1056133
Ask your LOR.
Per my LOR, it includes a white shirt.July 5, 2010 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1056134
And, as per my LOR, it does not have to be a white shirt.
Which begs the question — what type of uniform is so… un-uniformish?
The WolfJuly 5, 2010 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1056135
“Per my LOR, it includes a white shirt.”
Per my LOR is does not. According to your LOR by wearing a blue shirt I am ipso facto dressing like a goy?
Just an FYI: My LOR is the one you praised as a tzadik on another thread.July 5, 2010 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #1056136
My dear and beloved — blue-shirt donning — brother apushatayid:
I hereby extend an open-invitation to you to visit my shul and receive the Aliya of your choice – in your blue shirt.
Please note, that my opening sentence was “Ask your LOR.” Noting what my LOR said, was merely coincidental and as you saw secondary to the above.July 5, 2010 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #1056137
Since there are many well respected LORs, and the opinions of these LORs regarding the “uniform of a yid” varies from one to the next, it follows that either there are multiple uniforms (which is all the rage in the sports world today, to encourage fans to purchase multiple jerseys) or no uniforms at all.December 4, 2012 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1056140WiseyParticipant
Ask the potential spouse why he/she dresses that way? Which group they associate themselves with? Why do they follow their chosen hashkafos? This should solve the problem quite easily and also a serious discussion like this will reveal if the person thinks about these issues or just walks through life blindfolded following their friends’ ideas and beliefs. (not suggested for a first date)February 1, 2015 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1056141About TimeParticipant
R’ Shmuel Berenbaum had certain ideas about yeshivas and what a ben torah should be immersed in. R’ Shmuel said in a shmooze it’s bitul torah for a ben torah in yeshiva to be reading a newspaper “even one such as the yated”. R’ Moshe Tuvia Leiff, heard from R’ Shmuel, that if there would have been daf yomi in the days of the Yevanim, they would not have included it in the decree.
R’ Shmuel, further,had a certain view of what should be learnt in a yeshiva. Some 35 years ago, a small group of talmidim and alumni formed a chaburah to learn the Rambam’s moreh nevuchim at night in the yeshiva’s ezras nashim. When R’ Shmuel found out about this, he told them they cannot do this in yeshiva and must learn this elsewhere. More recently, some 15 years ago, a fellow arrived in yeshiva and started a navi chaburah during night seder. Again when it came to R’ Shmuel’s attention, he briefly told him that it was not acceptable.February 1, 2015 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #1056142Rema711Member
L613 the white dress shirt stands for purity and the black hat, black pants, black suit jacket stands for humility, cause black is all the colors in one, the reason we wear it is what I just wrote, and also because we are in front of Hashem all the time, so we should dress our best, it’s like standing before a president, when u are standing before a president u want to look ur best, all the more so for the president of presidentsFebruary 1, 2015 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1056143About TimeParticipant
The Kitzur ( chap.3) spells out the reason for wearing black.
White is more kabbalistic.February 1, 2015 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1056144Rema711Member
About Time both are equaly important suffice to say
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