yichus in shidduchim

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  • #596939

    room420
    Member

    Is yichus a maaleh in a shidduch and if so how important is it? Does it take precedence over any other maaleh

    #769617

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    The most important “yichus” a person has is him/herself. Any other ancestors are secondary.

    In other words, if the person him/herself is unworthy, it doesn’t matter who the ancestors are. If they are worthy, then their lack of worthy ancestors (which is something over which they have no control) should not be held against them.

    The Wolf

    #769618

    msseeker
    Member

    Pimary maalos: ????/??????, ???? ????, ???? ?????

    Secondary maalos: Yichus, looks, money.

    #769619

    yid.period
    Member

    I’m sorry but this is a silly question

    #769620

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Of course it is a maaleh. Some things it takes precedence over, while some other things takes precedence over it.

    #769621

    dunno
    Member

    The famous line: “Yichus is a bunch of zeros but you need the one before it.”

    #769622

    gregaaron
    Member

    Like anything else, it can be either a ma’aleh or a chisaron. If a person takes the lessons of his/her family to heart, and strives to live up to the family reputation, then it’s a ma’aleh. If (s)he uses it as an excuse to do and get whatever (s)he wants, it’s probably not such a good thing.

    How important is it? As important as you make it. If you are specifically looking for yichus, then yeah, it’s important and should take precedence over something you don’t care about as much. It all depends on what you’re looking for.

    #769623

    adorable
    Participant

    chassidishe circles- very important

    modern circles- not important at all

    everyone in between- it depends

    #769624

    yeshivabochur123
    Participant

    I’d like to marry someone with yichus but it depends on the person. Some people don’t care about yichus. If everything else is good it shouldn’t be meakev.

    #769625

    person3
    Member

    Why should it matter??? You’re marrying a person – not his father, grandfather… If the person has good middos and the right hashkafos – why should his yichus matter?

    #769626

    IUseBrains
    Participant

    It is definitely a maaleh, however, if a person has his own yichus, that’s a even a bigger maaleh.

    because, it means that it was more difficult to reach certain madregos and the person reached them anyhow without zechos ovos.

    However, zechus ovos always helps.

    #769627

    s2021
    Member

    I dont know how important good yichus is but if someone has sketchy yichus you should definately use caution. Even if the person seems wonderfull.

    #769628

    its something to consider

    #769629

    ZachKessin
    Member

    A guy (or girl) who is a jerk will not be any more or less of a jerk if their grandfather is a Rosh Yeshiva. Nor will a kind an polite person be any different if their father is not.

    (For the record my father is a university microbiology professor and my grandfather is a retired shop keeper)

    #769630

    bpt
    Participant

    Do you mean yichus as in doros are pure? Yes, that’s important.

    Do you mean which odom godol they desend from? Nice bonus, but not that important (at least, not to me)

    I’m marrying the person, not the relative.

    #769631

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    if someone has sketchy yichus you should definately use caution. Even if the person seems wonderfull.

    Thank goodness you’re too old to date my kids. Not that you’d want to anyway, considering the fact that almost no one in my family is frum.

    The Wolf

    #769632

    Health
    Participant

    “Pimary maalos: ????/??????, ???? ????, ???? ?????

    Secondary maalos: Yichus, looks, money.”

    This is true, but not reality. What I find the two things most people care about is either Yichus or Money, or both!

    #769633

    BSD
    Member

    Let’s not pretend- we are all proud that we are bnei avrohom yitzchok and yaakov. If your father is famous or a millionaire it matters to you. If your father is a tzaddik that matters too, and it matters to a potential shidduch as well. There is something that gets passed along-either it’s zchus avos or genes or something. You find very often that greatness or wealth stays in a family. All things being equal, it’s definitely a major plus. Having said that, the first priority is that (s)he be a mentch. Avrohom Avinu was mishadech with besuel not because of his yichus-a better mechutan he could have found. It was the imahos’ middos that put them on top of the shidduch list.

    #769634

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Let’s not pretend- we are all proud

    Who’s pretending?

    When it comes to marriage, I couldn’t care less who your grandfather is.

    we are all proud that we are bnei avrohom yitzchok and yaakov.

    Big deal. We all are. To paraphrase a movie line: “If everyone’s special then no one is.”

    The Wolf

    #769635

    tomim tihye
    Member

    Isn’t Moshiach supposed to be from a “Kupah shel shrotzim” (or something like that)?

    #769636

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Moshiach is going to be from Ben Dovid. Pretty good yichus.

    #769638

    s2021
    Member

    “Thank goodness you’re too old to date my kids”

    Wow, so I guess ther starting young- heh? My 21st birthday is almost here!

    #769639

    yid.period
    Member

    Pacman

    And what was dovid hamelech’s yichus? born out of incest (moav and lot) and deception (tamar and yehuda)…

    Avraham Avinu? (idol merchant father)

    There was a good ruse I heard once (maybe someone can quote it) where a Rabbi asked a group of girls “Who would you rather marry?

    1) A guy who is estranged from his siblings and obsessed with his good looks

    2) A convert who doesn’t know a word of torah”

    … There are two others

    (btw, 1 is yosef, 2 is R’ akiva)

    disclaimer- not saying marry a bad person, just saying yichus doesn’t matter

    #769640

    Rabbi Akiva was not a convert.

    Torah should be capitalized

    #769641

    yid.period
    Member

    Point taken on the capitalization of Torah; I apologize to anybody who took offense.

    Apparently the R’ Akiva thing isn’t so clear though…

    “We also know that Rabbi Akiva was either himself a convert or a child of converts:

    We can hardly appoint Rabbi Akiva because perhaps Rabban Gamaliel will bring a curse on him because he has no ancestral merit. (Brachot 27b. See comments of Rav Nissim Gaon.)”- from Aish.com (mod 80 you can edit out this link but this is just for you if you’re interested: http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/48939037.html )

    But fair enough, I am not sure… I said I didn’t remember how the story went…

    #769642

    i dont know

    im pretty sure that the consensus is that his father , Yosef, was a ger

    thanks for the information

    #769643

    yid.period
    Member

    Like I said, could be. Thanks for correcting me.

    #769644

    cshapiro
    Member

    looks, money and then yichus…

    #769645

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    This is not the first time there has been this discussion.

    And it was noted last time that the people who were saying that yichus is nothing at all, were, understandably those without.

    Yichus is not everything, and it is not even the most important thing, in most cases. But it is something that is worthwhile considering. For loads of reasons. Which anyone with an ounce of sense can understand.

    #769646

    yid.period
    Member

    cshapiro

    football player to you is a girl with a brooklyn bump to me.

    If by yichus you mean the chashivus of her parents’ bank account, then I think it’s very important.

    #769647

    cshapiro
    Member

    yid, i dont get it??

    #769648

    yid.period
    Member

    oh well

    #769649

    anon for this
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft, I knew a woman who used to say, “yichus is like potatoes; the best part is underground”. And she definitely had yichus (though not chassidish).

    #769650

    room420
    Member

    The argument that actually took place in room 420 was as follows”what’s more important- a girls yichus or her cooking abilities”

    #769651

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    As far as yichus goes, outside of her close family who you have to deal with after marriage, I can only care about two levels of yichus: Kosher and Pasul.

    #769652

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    And it was noted last time that the people who were saying that yichus is nothing at all, were, understandably those without.

    Ah, so you think we “gutter bloods” are jealous of your holy ancestors?

    Sorry, I don’t get jealous over things over which I have no control. I may be jealous of your learning, of your personal piety, and many other things. But of your ancestry? No, sorry.

    I take pride in things I can accomplish. My parents and grandparents have their own successes, but I take no pride in them because I had no part in them. I’m happy for them for their success, just like I’d be happy for my neighbor if he suddenly did something wonderful. But to take pride in it? Sorry, not me.

    When the time comes for shidduchim for my kids, I’m not going to give any candidate one bit of preference because their great-grandfather was someone special over someone whose great-grandfather was a simple person. I will encourage my kids to pay attention to the candidate him/herself… not any yichus that they may or may not have had.

    But yeah, what do I know. As you pointed out…

    But it is something that is worthwhile considering. For loads of reasons. Which anyone with an ounce of sense can understand.

    … I obviously don’t have an ounce of sense.

    The (completely and utterly senseless) Wolf

    #769653

    yid.period
    Member

    cooking abilities. Good food keeps kids otd (ON the derech).

    #769654

    When it comes to marriage, I couldn't care less who your grandfather is.

    Wolf- very well said. Once youre married it only matters if your spouse is a mentch and not if his/her grandfather was a gadol hador or not.

    #769655

    person3
    Member

    Everyone who feels yichus doesn’t matter – when you will have a child in shidduchim and you are offered two equally suitable prospects but one has yichus and the other doesn’t – which one would you choose and WHY??

    #769656

    I don’t think it will affect my decision. By my shidduch my parents clearly tried to focus on the prospective boy and just inquired enough to make sure the family was welcoming. Not if they had major yichus

    #769657

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    when you will have a child in shidduchim and you are offered two equally suitable prospects but one has yichus and the other doesn’t – which one would you choose and WHY??

    Whichever one my child wants!! Because s/he is the one who has to live with the spouse.

    The Wolf

    #769658

    yid.period
    Member

    person3

    There is no such thing as two people who are the same… Therefore, I would make a decision based on the facts about THE PERSON… I would have no hava amina to even ask about yichus or care to listen if it was being related.

    Sorry I know it’s not the answer you’re looking for.

    (btw, you could give the same dilemma about any trivial quality; doesn’t mean it’s worth anything)

    #769659

    Poster
    Member

    People with Yichus look for a spouse with Yichus. my husband once told me that unless you have Yichus, you cant understand why someone else finds it so important.

    #769660

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    you cant understand

    I always find that to be a cop-out answer. Almost anything that can be conceptualized can be explained. I may not agree with you at the end of the day, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t understand.

    Instead of telling me that I’m incapable of understanding something, how about trying to explain it to me.

    The Wolf

    #769661

    BSD
    Member

    Wolf-“we are all proud that we are bnei avrohom yitzchok and yaakov.”

    “Big deal. We all are. To paraphrase a movie line: “If everyone’s special then no one is.”

    The Wolf “

    We are merely .05% of the world population (if that). Our achievements in proportion to our numbers are staggering. Has that nothing to do with yichus? And no, not “everyone” is special(hence the hatred of the nations throughout history)

    BTW do you shtomm from shvartzi wolf? Is that why you use the hei hayidiuh?

    #769662

    BSD
    Member

    “When it comes to marriage, I couldn’t care less who your grandfather is.”

    That is, unless gramps is moving in!:)

    #769663

    yid.period
    Member

    my Rebbe in Israel always used to say “If you can’t explain it, it means you don’t fully understand it”

    #769664

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    We are merely .05% of the world population (if that). Our achievements in proportion to our numbers are staggering. Has that nothing to do with yichus? And no, not “everyone” is special(hence the hatred of the nations throughout history)

    We are talking about shidduchim here. Since you would never consider a non-Jew for a shidduch anyway, it doesn’t matter how small we are compared to the rest of the world. For the purposes of shidduchim, the “universe” consists only of Jews and, in that regard (converts excluded), we are *all* descended from Avraham, Yitzchok and Ya’akov… so, for the purposes of shidduchim, it’s nothing special — since everyone has those attributes.

    The Wolf

    #769665

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    That is, unless gramps is moving in!:)

    Touche!

    The Wolf

    #769666

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    BTW do you shtomm from shvartzi wolf? Is that why you use the hei hayidiuh?

    Can you please translate “shtomm?”

    The Wolf

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