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  • #596803
    Feif Un
    Participant

    Among all the things we thank Hashem for, today let’s also specify the following:

    * The nes of the War of Independence. This was truly rabim b’yad me’atim, just as it was by Chanukah. By all rights, the Jews should have been crushed, but because of the nes that Hashem made, we prevailed.

    * For creating a nation where Jews can practice their religion freely, and where Torah is studied at amazing levels.

    * For constantly protecting the country. Not only in the 1948 war, as mentioned above, but in all the wars that followed, where we were outnumbered and outgunned. It’s only because of chasdei Hashem that Israel has survived them all.

    * For allowing us access to mikomos hakedoshim, such as the Kosel, and many kivrei tzaddikim.

    May Hashem continue to protect the State of Israel, and guide its leaders to do what is proper. May Israel and the rest of the world know eternal peace soon, with the coming of Mashiach.

    Chag Sameach

    #945661
    always here
    Participant

    “May Hashem continue to protect the State of Israel, and guide its leaders to do what is proper. May Israel and the rest of the world know eternal peace soon, with the coming of Mashiach.”

    AMEN!!

    #945662
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Rav Velvel (The Brisker Rov) is well known to have said Hashem gave Klal Yisroel special Hashgacha to be able to create a state in EY run by Yidden.

    May Hashem continue to shine Hashgacha on Klal Yisroel.

    #945663
    yeshivabochur123
    Participant

    My rebbe said that the gematria of yom haatzmaut is the same as bitul hatorah.

    Yom haatzmaut is no excuse to leave the beis midrash and engage in frivolous activities. Neither is July 4 or Memorial day or any other secular holiday.

    #945664
    Feif Un
    Participant

    yeshivabochur123: not HaTorah, just Torah. They both equal 668.

    Teaching kids to recognize the greatness of Hashem and pointing out specific nisim is not bitul Torah, it teaches the kids valuable hashkafic lessons.

    Yom Ha’atzmaut is a day to give thanks to Hashem for the miracles involved with the State of Israel. The Yad Hashem can clearly be seen in it.

    For those opposed to it, how can you deny that Hashem helped with its establishment? Why would Hashem help with such open miracles if He does not want Israel to exist as it does now?

    #945665
    msseeker
    Member

    Feif Un: I’m tired of regurgitating the arguments. Please look for the older threads, or see TrueTorahJews.com for clear answers.

    #945666

    you are on very shaky ground when you start assuming why Hashem does things. hitler too, he should burn forever in the deepest pits of Gehenom, was an open nais. an ignorant nobody, an uneducated paperhanger from a lowly family, who in a few short years, through an incredible chain of events became the most powerful and dangerous man on the earth.

    #945667
    Cinci Bengal
    Member

    yeshivabochur123, Yom Ha’atzmaut is bitul torah but wasting time in the coffee room on the internet is not?

    #945668
    Shticky Guy
    Participant

    wasting time in the coffee room on the internet is not?

    Firstly a warm ???? ????? to Cinci Bengal on behalf of everyone. Hope your stay here will be a pleasant one.

    Secondly, wasting time on the internet is different cos its not the same ???????…?? :-).?? Jk.

    Yes you’re obviously correct about anyone just “wasting time” is ????? ????. But if its ok to spend “a short time” relaxing then instead of reading a book etc. one can visit ywn. And dont put ywn on level with stam internet. When I go online, I limit myself to mainly my emails and ywn instead of browsing. This is a frum moderated site where besides possibilities of ???? ????,?? ??????? ? ?? or ?????? ??? ??, we are all ???????.

    #945669
    Cinci Bengal
    Member

    Thank you Shticky Guy. I basically agree with everything you said. That is why I don’t understand why spending “a short time” celebrating Yom Ha’atzmaut one day out of the year would be anymore of a problem than any other recreational activity, ie. YWN.

    #945670
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Is anyone saying Hallel tomorrow? It’s the American Yom Haatzmaut!

    #945671
    Csar
    Member

    It’s less an aveira to say it on the American Independence Day than the Zionist Independence Day.

    #945672
    akuperma
    Participant

    It was hardly a miracle. The Israeli military was much better trained and many were veterans of World War II. They were fighting on interior lines. Except for the Arab Legion, the Arab military was untrained and poorly equipped, and often fighting each other as well. The British Empire (whom we did defeat, we only fought the Arabs to a stalemate – that continues) were collapsing and had recently been evicted from India and were shortly to flee most of their other overseas territories – they were bankrupt and actually quite happy to give up rather than fight for their empire.

    One should note that in Jewish tradition, victories over goyim are never celebrated. That’s why we don’t say Hallel on the last days of Pesach (and that was clearly a miracle – we weren’t even armed). For Hanukah we say we are saying hallel to honor the miracle of the menorah buring, not in honor of schechting the Greeks and the Misyavanim. But of course, how do those compare to 1948? What’s Moshe Rabeinu compared to Moshe Dayan? Who would want a Makacabee if you could have a Palmalnik? Note that the vast majority of Jews living in Eretz Yisrael in 1948 observed things first hand, and only a small minority thought a miracle had occured (you wouldn’t catch Ben Gurioun saying Hallel – if there had been a miracle, wouldn’t he have known about it).

    #945673
    Josh31
    Participant

    ZeesKite, you have stirred up the right wing regulars.

    One has taken a screen name which was the title of some of the worst oppressors of Jews in history.

    The other has spewed standard right wing kefira which may constitute Blasphemy for which one is obligated to tear Kri-a.

    Back to your point, historically the Torah Way has been to be good citizens and fly the flag of the country on its Independence Day. The Ponovez Yeshiva did so when it was in Europe and does so in Israel. The Nut Kases come out and protest each year like clockwork.

    #945674
    HaKatan
    Participant

    “For those opposed to it, how can you deny that Hashem helped with its establishment? Why would Hashem help with such open miracles if He does not want Israel to exist as it does now?”

    Yawn. More (regurgitated, as noted by others) Zionist wishful thinking (at best).

    As pointed out above (by others), why did Hashem allow the Nazi 3rd Reich to so cruelly and inhumanly murder so many of our forebearers among the many other unimaginable atrocities they committed against our people?

    Obviously, not everything Hashem allows to happen is necessarily the preferred approach, despite His permission for it to happen.

    While on the topic, there are those who hold that the Zionists hijacked the tremendous eis ratzon that existed after the Holocaust and, instead of allowing Moshiach to come, they replaced it with their idolatry.

    We would have had far better access to mekomos hakedoshim (and a Beis Hamikdash in its entirety and true and unending world peace, rather than only the Kosel retaining wall and some other mekomos that require an armed escort to visit).

    Not much to be thankful for, in that view, especially when the gedolim told them they shouldn’t.

    Regardless, what about the many Jews murdered while under Zionist rule?

    Al pi Derech HaTeva, none of the Jews who died in defense of this egel would have died at that time, many of them at only the very beginning of life.

    As well, the many families and individuals, victims of Arab terror, HY”D, would still be alive and well were it not for Zionist fallacies.

    (The Olam Hafuch aspect is that the Zionists are actually proud of their utter disaster and successfully and misleadingly convince many others of the same.)

    As the three weeks approach, this is all actually much more like Tisha BiAv material, unfortunately.

    #945675
    147
    Participant

    Of-course I would say Hallel on July 4th, but the problem is, that July 4, 1776 was Thursday Tammuz 17th, 5536; Hence I don’t feel up to reciting Hallel whilst in the midst of fasting;

    B’H that Iyyor 5th, is not a fast day, and hence I am up to saying Hallel on Yom ha’Atzma’ut.

    #945676
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Akuperma ,somehow you omitted Purim which celebrates a military victory. Especially Shushan Purim. As far your revisionist history most of the palmate did not serve in swim and regardless of the training. The Israelis had no planes, tanks or heavy weapons,only old rifles and makeshift bombs

    #945677
    pcoz
    Member

    “The British Empire (whom we did defeat, we only fought the Arabs to a stalemate – that continues) were collapsing and had recently been evicted from India and were shortly to flee most of their other overseas territories – they were bankrupt and actually quite happy to give up rather than fight for their empire.”

    The words hilarious oversimplification come to mind

    #945678
    Csar
    Member

    Purim does not celebrate a military victory.

    #945681
    lesschumras
    Participant

    The Jews of Shushan had an extra day to fight their enemies

    #945682
    147
    Participant

    pcoz:- the British were defeated both on July 4, 1776 and on Yom ha’Atzma’ut 1948. So they [July 4th & Yom ha’Atzma’ut] share an incredible lot in common.

    #945683
    Avi K
    Participant

    Akuperma, Megillat Taanit contains several dates of Hasmonean military victories as dates on which fasting is prohibited.

    #945684
    Sam2
    Participant

    To seriously answer the question, I have thought that just based on the Gemara in Arachin (10b maybe?) there is room to say that one should say Hallel on July 4th, V’yeish L’ha’arich. However, based on Rav Schachter’s Mahalach quoting the Chasam Sofer (that I have brought down in other threads) it’s probably not Shayach to say Hallel tomorrow.

    #945685
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Sam2: Isn’t 10b about vesset and losing count during shiva nekyim? Whatever, I’ll look it up tonight.

    #945686
    Sam2
    Participant

    Itche: I think that’s 11b. But I’m usually off by exactly 1 Daf more often than I’m precisely right actually, so it could be. e-daf would probably answer this quite easily.

    #945687
    2scents
    Participant

    I think that Mod-80 said it well.

    We shouldnt say Halled ont he 4th, since the Neis was not with us (assuming that this wqas a Neis).

    #945688
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    You were right; it was 10b but I don’t think it’s mashma like you said. BTW, am I correct to assume you’ve finished shas? Most people I know save kodshim for last.

    #945689
    Sam2
    Participant

    Csar: Have you read the Megillah recently? It’s an explicit Passuk that we’re celebrating the military victory.

    #945690
    Csar
    Member

    Which “military” victory? We had a “military” in Shushan?

    The Megilla states clearly that the date of Purim corresponds not to the day of the triumph but to the day the Jews rested from battle.

    #945691
    Avi K
    Participant

    Csar, how does he explain all of the celbrations of Hasmonean victories in Megillat Taanit? In any case, on Yom HaAtzmaut we were not only saved but ceased to be slaves to Ahashverosh.

    #945692
    Feif Un
    Participant

    Csar Joseph HaKatan: If you have an issue with Yom Ha’atzmaut, fine. Don’t celebrate it. But if you feel the need to berate those who do celebrate it, please go and take it up with a few others before doing so here. Please discuss it with the Roshei Yeshiva at Ponovez, and with R’ Ovadia Yosef (who says Hallel without a bracha on Yom Ha’atzmaut). When you’ve convinced them that the day shouldn’t be observed, then come tell us here.

    #945693
    Sam2
    Participant

    Csar: We fought, and won, and celebrated the day that we rested from our enemies. You can try and splice the resting from the winning, but it’s clear that we celebrated winning a battle in which we were fighting for our lives.

    And I am not familiar with that Meshech Chochmah, but I find it hard to believe that he says as you quote. Because the Gemara itself gives Ester’s answer. Her answer wasn’t that it was the resting they were celebrating, it was that the Goyim already know (“they are written in the histories of Persia”). So either he’s giving a different answer than the Gemara does or you’re misquoting him.

    #945694
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    AviK: are you serious? Chanuka and the other hasmonean victories was a celebration that we were able to keep the torah–since that was the only threat anyway.

    #945695
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Csar doesn’t read megilas Esther. It’s in Tanach.

    #945696
    Csar
    Member

    Sam: Instead of proposing your boich svaras or repeating YU reinterpretations, crack open the Meshech Chochmah. I gave a maare makom, so spare the “I am not familiar with that Meshech Chochmah, but I find it hard to believe”. I also told you what the pasuk in the Megilla says.

    #945697
    Sam2
    Participant

    Csar: I don’t know what a “YU reinterpretation” means, but I do know a B’feirush Gemara in Megilah 7a. See the 12th line. “She said to them, “I am already written in the history books of Madai and Paras.'” I’m sorry that the Gemara disagrees with your worldview. But I will look at the Meshach Chomchmah when I get a chance.

    #945698
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I should not even engage in this conversation as it is so old hat as to elicit a yawn…but I have to point out halachic misrepresentations- all you have to do is quote gemoro megillah 14a on the saying of hallel on any occasion that the jews are saved from destruction. Whether you like yom ha=atsmaut or not, you must be totally blind (you too, apokerma) to deny that the Jews of Eretz Yisroel were facing destruction in 1948.(and you cannot even use the answer that you don’t say hallel on a miracle in chutz lo-oretz!)

    Secondly, it is totally ridiculous to deny that we celebrate the military victories. Have the critics even READ “bimei matishohu ben jochanan kohen godol”? Of course, we celebrate military victories! Have you ever read parshas Masai- the war on midian,parshas beshalach- the war on amolek? From time immemorial, we had armies and military victories that were celebrated (look in tenach).

    #945699
    Sam2
    Participant

    Csar: I looked up the Meshech Chochmah (12:15, by the way). He does say what you claim he says. I don’t know how though. It’s against the Gemara’s answer. However, his point is still true.

    I think we’re arguing at each other here and not making different points. No one claims (I hope) that we are celebrating military victories because it shows our strength. Rather, we celebrate the victories because they usually mean that we are now free to live our lives and serve Hashem without people stopping us. We are not celebrating the victory. Rather, we celebrate the outcome of the victory. But, in essence, that’s what celebrating the victory means in the first place.

    #945700
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    bump

    #945701
    ezer15
    Member

    sam why are you so defensive for the modern

    #945702
    ezer15
    Member

    sam g-d said we get eretz yisroel back by mashiach and some people think they can do it before it so we can mix with society and start peace and never have people hated us this much analysis LISTEN TO THE RABONIM STOP THINKING YOUR SMARTER

    #945703
    musser zoger
    Participant

    What is strange is that yidden are the only people to actually have a problem with being politically independent in their own land.

    #945705
    musser zoger
    Participant

    sam g-d said we get eretz yisroel back by mashiach and some people think they can do it before it so we can mix with society and start peace and never have people hated us this much analysis LISTEN TO THE RABONIM STOP THINKING YOUR SMARTER

    1 question: If their was another holocaust R”L, wouldnt it be great if there would be haven like Israel for Yidden to escape to. Why must everything be black and white?

    #945706

    ?

    #945707
    Sam2
    Participant

    Ezer: I think I’m smarter? Listen to the Rabbanim? Excuse me? Read all my old posts again. I do nothing but quote Rav Schachter who gives Halachic (not political) reasons why one might celebrate Yom Ha’atzma’ut. You are free to hold otherwise. But I’m not trying to attack the world here, just defend it.

    #945708
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Mo’adim l’simcha l’geulah shleimah!

    #1268954
    torah is the best
    Participant

    I just heard a amazing gematria, which clarifies the what is accomplished on “Yom Hatzmaut” The Gematria of Yom Hatzmaut is exactly the same as Bitul Torah, which means that is all that is accomplished by celebrating the silly yom hatzmaut holiday.

    #1269035
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Did you just hear it by reading the old posts in this thread? It was written almost 6 years ago.

    You say it’s a silly holiday, yet many Rabbonim celebrate it. R’ Ovadia Yosef zt”l said Hallel on it. R’ Schachter shlita gives a psaht as to why it can be considered a Yom Tov, similar to Purim.

    Mods, do you allow links to YUTorah? If so, here’s a link to a great article that examines this question from both sides (it includes the views of the Satmar Rebbe in it as well as those supporting a Jewish State.)
    http://www.yutorah.org/togo/haatzmaut/articles/Yom_Haatzmaut_To-Go_-_5770_Rabbi_Ozerowski.pdf

    PLEASE DON’T CONCOCT THINGS IN THE NAME OF POSKIM. RAV OVADIA SAID TO RECITE HALLEL WITHOUT A BRACHA – WHICH IS SIMPLY RECITING PRAKIM OF TEHILLIM. THAT IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE.ย Rav Ovadia Yosef (Teshuvos Yabia Omer 6:O.C. 41)

    AND WHY NOT QUOTE FROM THE LINK THAT YOU YOURSELF POSTED INSTEAD OF YOUR OWN THOUGHTS? HERE IT IS:

    R. Ovadia Yosef (ad loc.) argues that even an atchalta dโ€™geulah is not sufficient to warrant reciting Hallel with a berachah on Yom Haatzmaut, since there are still numerous challenges and troubles in Israel. Although it is possible R.Ovadia would distinguish between Hallel and the other characteristics of establishing a Yom Tov, it is clear that he feels this type of atchalta dโ€™geulah is not strong enough at least regarding certain aspects of such a chag. He bases this on the Yerushalmi (Pesachim 10:6) that says although one should indeed recite praises (โ€œshirahโ€) to Hashem when He does miracles for you, this does not apply to โ€œtechilat geulatan,โ€ such as the night they left Egypt (as opposed to after crossing the sea).37 Also, it is worthwhile to note (as does R. Goren in passing) that we donโ€™t have records of a specific day of Yom Tov for the return of Jews to Israel in the time of Ezra, so too here one could argue that atchalta dโ€™geulah alone would not warrant a designation of Yom Tov.

    #1269055
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Mods, I never said that R’ Ovadia zt”l said to say Hallel with a bracha. It was noted earlier in the thread that he said it WITHOUT a bracha. Just to note, Sefardim don’t make a bracha on Rosh Chodesh, or the second days of Pesach (they don’t make a bracha anytime the full Hallel isn’t said). I also never claimed that R’ Ovadia claimed it could be a chag because of aschalta d’geulah – I wrote that R’ Schachter says that.
    My point was that to call it a “silly” holiday is wrong, as there are plenty of Rabbonim who take it very seriously.

    #1269070

    My point was that to call it a โ€œsillyโ€ holiday is wrong, as there are plenty of Rabbonim who take it very seriously.

    There are also plenty of rabbonim who think it’s silly (or worse), so why is it wrong?

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