May 3, 2017 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1269122
For all this talk about if the celebration is of military victory or a relief from our tormentors, it’s neither. This day celebrates the beginning of a bad war! It’s an independence day. Nothing more, nothing less. If you’d only keep it that way without stuffing in religious significance we’d all be better off.
If you really want to celebrate in the Jewish tone, celebrate the end of the war, 9th of Adar or the tenth, being the day after. Perhaps the ending wasn’t glamorous enough, but that would be a celebration of Hashem’s help. Celebrating an announcement that started (or preempted) the war is simply a nationalistic idea. Just keep it as that.
And, at this opportunity, I thank Hashem once more for the wonderful display of kindness and miracles He showed us in our times, ועל ארץ חמדה טובה ורחבה.
As the Medrash says in Shir Hashirim, this is great and wonderful and let them rejoice, but we await the presence of the Shechinah.May 3, 2017 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #1269166
1. According to the Chatam Sofer (Sukka 36a) yishuv EY pushes off talmud Torah.
2, The gematria of יום העצמאות is 668. This is also the gematria of מבורכת and מצות ה’ אליכם (using the tetragrammaton). BTW, in gematria דונלד טראמפ is משיח בן דוד. So much for gematriot.
HaLevi, the date of the declaration is the proper day to celebrate as that was when the British left and we became independent. It was also a great kiddush Hashem as the British and Americans both warned BG against it. He thumbed his nose at them saying that in order to be realistic a Jew must believe in miracles. He also said about the UN “Oom (the Hebrew acronym) shmoom”.May 3, 2017 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #1269215
So it’s a celebration of the thumbing of a nose? As I said, it is a completely secular commemoration. It’s about a declaration of independence, not of divine deliverance. Celebrate with fireworks, not liturgy.
Or do what you want but don’t make believe it is what it isn’t.May 3, 2017 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #1269210
“If you really want to celebrate in the Jewish tone, celebrate the end of the war”
On chanukah we dont celebrate the end of the war. Now while we celebrate (primarily?) the Nes PAch shemen, we do celebrate the military victory and independence too (eg read AL hanisim ,and see the Rambam “והושיעם מידם והצילם וגברו בני חשמונאי הכהנים הגדולים והרגום והושיעו ישראל מידם והעמידו מלך מן הכהנים וחזרה מלכות לישראל יתר על מאתים שנים עד החורבן השני:” ) though the fighting continued after Chanukah.May 3, 2017 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #1269246
HaLeiVi, the secular Israelis celebrate it as a secular event. Religious Zionists celebrate it as a recognition of Divine intervention.May 3, 2017 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1269253
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
That’s precisely what he’s objecting to.May 3, 2017 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1269267
Religious Zionists celebrate it as a recognition of Divine intervention.
Then why celebrate when the war began? Celebrate when it was won.May 3, 2017 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #1269285
The capacity to defend oneself and one’s community with the intervention of HKBH is worth celebrating, when such capacity has been absent for millenia. The celebration of the end of the conflict resonates too, because more importantly than victory, it can be a celebration of the beginning of some semblance of peace, or at least the temporary absence of violence.
Finally, more than one gadol, more than one Rav, more than one educated Jew, more than one simple maamin have looked at the events of the past 100 years and seen the indications of the Ikvesa Demeshicha. And the concepts of overcoming shibud malchuyos along with the clearest of kibutz goluyos are so clear that an Iver could see them.
Now, the period before zman hamoshiach (and which one are you talking about, Ezer, ben yosef or ben dovid?) isn’t exactly clearly defined in our tradition. One thing that seems clear though, is that it is a time of tumult, confusion, and conflict.
I believe that we are in the time of ikvesa demeshicha. It would be simplistic and perhaps foolish to draw a perfectly straight line from the founding of a secular state to the onset of a messianic age. That is precisely the context – tumult, confusion, conflict – out of which the geulah will come.
However you see the medinah, the fact of its existence and the context within which it was created indicates to me, at least, that we are approaching the geulah, even if its two steps forward, one step back.
And, to me, that is worth celebrating. If for you, it’s worth saying kinos over, at least you are doing so because the ultimate geulah matters to you.May 3, 2017 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #1269294
the problem is, that it was never really won, and never really over. There was a truce, with Israel coming out on top. Until the fighting started up again, and again…
But I guess, it is like chanuka, which came after a specific series of battles was won, although the war restarted and continued for many years.
If we follow Chanuka’s example, when the day of celebration was when the Beis Hamikdash was re-dedicated, we should find a day of spiritual significance connected to the battles- maybe regaining the kosel in 1967 and being able to daven there? So it would be Yom Yerushalayim. And if you move it over several days, it is 3 Yimei Hagbala and no sefira issues for all deos.May 3, 2017 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1269298
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
WTP, how about we choose the day the third Beis Hamikdash is built?May 3, 2017 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #1269488
“PLEASE DON’T CONCOCT THINGS IN THE NAME OF POSKIM. RAV OVADIA SAID TO RECITE HALLEL WITHOUT A BRACHA – WHICH IS SIMPLY RECITING PRAKIM OF TEHILLIM. THAT IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE. Rav Ovadia Yosef (Teshuvos Yabia Omer 6:O.C. 41)”
This is a common misconception. According to halacha, saying Hallel even without a bracha is not the same as saying Tehillim, and there are halachic problems with saying Hallel even without a bracha on a day on which one is not supposed to be saying Hallel.
There are shitas that hold that it is assur to say Hallel without a bracha on Yom HaAtzmaut even if they feel that the day is a day that should be celebrated.
I believe that those people who hold that Hallel (w/o a bracha) should be recited, often refer to this as “saying Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut” (and don’t feel the need to add the words “without a bracha”). Of course, it doesn’t hurt to clarify for those who might misunderstand. But someone who does not do so is not saying something incorrect (since they didn’t say “with a bracha”).May 3, 2017 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #1269525
I don’t know. Ask R’ Hershel Schachter. He’s the one who holds that no matter what day of the week it falls out on, it should be celebrated on the 5th of Iyar.May 3, 2017 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #1269630
“According to halacha, saying Hallel even without a bracha is not the same as saying Tehillim, ”
“and there are halachic problems with saying Hallel even without a bracha on a day on which one is not supposed to be saying Hallel.”
“There are shitas that hold that it is assur to say Hallel without a bracha on Yom HaAtzmaut even if they feel that the day is a day that should be celebrated.”
(please dont cite כל הקורא הלל בכל יום הרי זה מחרף ומגדף. since nobody is suggesting saying it ” בכל יום”)May 4, 2017 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1270134
That is what I remember learning years ago. I don’t have a source off-hand, but I can try to find one, if I have a chance. I think the source may actually be the Gemara you quoted. I remember learning that the Gemara is is not referring to someone who says Hallel every day, but rather to someone who says Hallel on a regular day (meaning a day that does not call for it). It wouldn’t make sense otherwise – if somone says Hallel every day of his life but one, this Gemara would not refer to him??!!
In any case, if I have a chance, I will try to locate sources.May 4, 2017 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1270140
please dont cite כל הקורא הלל בכל יום הרי זה מחרף ומגדף. since nobody is suggesting saying it ” בכל יום”)
Because?? The RAV
from Boston himself said soMay 4, 2017 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1270146
“he date of the declaration is the proper day to celebrate as that was when the British left and we became independent. It was also a great kiddush Hashem as the British and Americans both warned BG against it.”
On the contrary it made us appear worse..
Beforehand there was a tremendous overwhelming latent sympathy for us after the holocaust.Afterwards,”the tough jews will/could take care of themselves”
(The nazi trials also started to diminish)May 4, 2017 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1270158
Or possibly a Nisayon
D’varim13:2-6May 7, 2017 8:16 am at 8:16 am #1270627
Any luck finding it?
The Gemara says “everyday” which makes more sense than on a day a nes occured.. what would be wrong with saying Hallel on a day a nes occured? Saying it everyday even when nothing occured minimizes hallel so that is “mecharef umegadef”
(not that the Gemara needs by backing since it says “everyday” and eve nyour peshat that the gemara deosnt say would still only preclude Hallel on a ” regular day (meaning a day that does not call for it).” So if it is said on a day of salavation it still wouldnt be a problem based on your derasha
As to whether Yom haatzmaut is a day a nes occured, that is a side (albeit related issue).
you also made several other unsubstantiated claims in your postMay 7, 2017 9:31 am at 9:31 am #1270648
Great idea, DY. Any idea when that will be? Oh, I think 9 Av, no? I think then no one will object turning a day of mourning into one of celebration.
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