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  • #1269122
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    For all this talk about if the celebration is of military victory or a relief from our tormentors, it’s neither. This day celebrates the beginning of a bad war! It’s an independence day. Nothing more, nothing less. If you’d only keep it that way without stuffing in religious significance we’d all be better off.

    If you really want to celebrate in the Jewish tone, celebrate the end of the war, 9th of Adar or the tenth, being the day after. Perhaps the ending wasn’t glamorous enough, but that would be a celebration of Hashem’s help. Celebrating an announcement that started (or preempted) the war is simply a nationalistic idea. Just keep it as that.

    And, at this opportunity, I thank Hashem once more for the wonderful display of kindness and miracles He showed us in our times, 讜注诇 讗专抓 讞诪讚讛 讟讜讘讛 讜专讞讘讛.

    As the Medrash says in Shir Hashirim, this is great and wonderful and let them rejoice, but we await the presence of the Shechinah.

    #1269166
    Avi K
    Participant

    TITB,

    1. According to the Chatam Sofer (Sukka 36a) yishuv EY pushes off talmud Torah.
    2, The gematria of 讬讜诐 讛注爪诪讗讜转 is 668. This is also the gematria of 诪讘讜专讻转 and 诪爪讜转 讛’ 讗诇讬讻诐 (using the tetragrammaton). BTW, in gematria 讚讜谞诇讚 讟专讗诪驻 is 诪砖讬讞 讘谉 讚讜讚. So much for gematriot.

    HaLevi, the date of the declaration is the proper day to celebrate as that was when the British left and we became independent. It was also a great kiddush Hashem as the British and Americans both warned BG against it. He thumbed his nose at them saying that in order to be realistic a Jew must believe in miracles. He also said about the UN “Oom (the Hebrew acronym) shmoom”.

    #1269215
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    So it’s a celebration of the thumbing of a nose? As I said, it is a completely secular commemoration. It’s about a declaration of independence, not of divine deliverance. Celebrate with fireworks, not liturgy.

    Or do what you want but don’t make believe it is what it isn’t.

    #1269210
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “If you really want to celebrate in the Jewish tone, celebrate the end of the war”

    On chanukah we dont celebrate the end of the war. Now while we celebrate (primarily?) the Nes PAch shemen, we do celebrate the military victory and independence too (eg read AL hanisim ,and see the Rambam “讜讛讜砖讬注诐 诪讬讚诐 讜讛爪讬诇诐 讜讙讘专讜 讘谞讬 讞砖诪讜谞讗讬 讛讻讛谞讬诐 讛讙讚讜诇讬诐 讜讛专讙讜诐 讜讛讜砖讬注讜 讬砖专讗诇 诪讬讚诐 讜讛注诪讬讚讜 诪诇讱 诪谉 讛讻讛谞讬诐 讜讞讝专讛 诪诇讻讜转 诇讬砖专讗诇 讬转专 注诇 诪讗转讬诐 砖谞讬诐 注讚 讛讞讜专讘谉 讛砖谞讬:” ) though the fighting continued after Chanukah.

    #1269246
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, the secular Israelis celebrate it as a secular event. Religious Zionists celebrate it as a recognition of Divine intervention.

    #1269253
    鈽 DaasYochid 鈽
    Participant

    That’s precisely what he’s objecting to.

    #1269267
    mw13
    Participant

    Religious Zionists celebrate it as a recognition of Divine intervention.

    Then why celebrate when the war began? Celebrate when it was won.

    #1269285
    yichusdik
    Participant

    The capacity to defend oneself and one’s community with the intervention of HKBH is worth celebrating, when such capacity has been absent for millenia. The celebration of the end of the conflict resonates too, because more importantly than victory, it can be a celebration of the beginning of some semblance of peace, or at least the temporary absence of violence.

    Finally, more than one gadol, more than one Rav, more than one educated Jew, more than one simple maamin have looked at the events of the past 100 years and seen the indications of the Ikvesa Demeshicha. And the concepts of overcoming shibud malchuyos along with the clearest of kibutz goluyos are so clear that an Iver could see them.

    Now, the period before zman hamoshiach (and which one are you talking about, Ezer, ben yosef or ben dovid?) isn’t exactly clearly defined in our tradition. One thing that seems clear though, is that it is a time of tumult, confusion, and conflict.

    I believe that we are in the time of ikvesa demeshicha. It would be simplistic and perhaps foolish to draw a perfectly straight line from the founding of a secular state to the onset of a messianic age. That is precisely the context – tumult, confusion, conflict – out of which the geulah will come.

    However you see the medinah, the fact of its existence and the context within which it was created indicates to me, at least, that we are approaching the geulah, even if its two steps forward, one step back.

    And, to me, that is worth celebrating. If for you, it’s worth saying kinos over, at least you are doing so because the ultimate geulah matters to you.

    #1269294
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    the problem is, that it was never really won, and never really over. There was a truce, with Israel coming out on top. Until the fighting started up again, and again…
    But I guess, it is like chanuka, which came after a specific series of battles was won, although the war restarted and continued for many years.
    If we follow Chanuka’s example, when the day of celebration was when the Beis Hamikdash was re-dedicated, we should find a day of spiritual significance connected to the battles- maybe regaining the kosel in 1967 and being able to daven there? So it would be Yom Yerushalayim. And if you move it over several days, it is 3 Yimei Hagbala and no sefira issues for all deos.

    #1269298
    鈽 DaasYochid 鈽
    Participant

    WTP, how about we choose the day the third Beis Hamikdash is built?

    #1269488
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “PLEASE DON鈥橳 CONCOCT THINGS IN THE NAME OF POSKIM. RAV OVADIA SAID TO RECITE HALLEL WITHOUT A BRACHA 鈥 WHICH IS SIMPLY RECITING PRAKIM OF TEHILLIM. THAT IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE. Rav Ovadia Yosef (Teshuvos Yabia Omer 6:O.C. 41)”

    This is a common misconception. According to halacha, saying Hallel even without a bracha is not the same as saying Tehillim, and there are halachic problems with saying Hallel even without a bracha on a day on which one is not supposed to be saying Hallel.

    There are shitas that hold that it is assur to say Hallel without a bracha on Yom HaAtzmaut even if they feel that the day is a day that should be celebrated.

    I believe that those people who hold that Hallel (w/o a bracha) should be recited, often refer to this as “saying Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut” (and don’t feel the need to add the words “without a bracha”). Of course, it doesn’t hurt to clarify for those who might misunderstand. But someone who does not do so is not saying something incorrect (since they didn’t say “with a bracha”).

    #1269525
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I don’t know. Ask R’ Hershel Schachter. He’s the one who holds that no matter what day of the week it falls out on, it should be celebrated on the 5th of Iyar.

    #1269630
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “According to halacha, saying Hallel even without a bracha is not the same as saying Tehillim, ”

    source?

    “and there are halachic problems with saying Hallel even without a bracha on a day on which one is not supposed to be saying Hallel.”

    Source?

    “There are shitas that hold that it is assur to say Hallel without a bracha on Yom HaAtzmaut even if they feel that the day is a day that should be celebrated.”

    Source?

    (please dont cite 讻诇 讛拽讜专讗 讛诇诇 讘讻诇 讬讜诐 讛专讬 讝讛 诪讞专祝 讜诪讙讚祝. since nobody is suggesting saying it ” 讘讻诇 讬讜诐”)

    #1270134
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    That is what I remember learning years ago. I don’t have a source off-hand, but I can try to find one, if I have a chance. I think the source may actually be the Gemara you quoted. I remember learning that the Gemara is is not referring to someone who says Hallel every day, but rather to someone who says Hallel on a regular day (meaning a day that does not call for it). It wouldn’t make sense otherwise – if somone says Hallel every day of his life but one, this Gemara would not refer to him??!!

    In any case, if I have a chance, I will try to locate sources.

    #1270140

    please dont cite 讻诇 讛拽讜专讗 讛诇诇 讘讻诇 讬讜诐 讛专讬 讝讛 诪讞专祝 讜诪讙讚祝. since nobody is suggesting saying it 鈥 讘讻诇 讬讜诐鈥)

    Because?? The RAV
    from Boston himself said so

    #1270146

    “he date of the declaration is the proper day to celebrate as that was when the British left and we became independent. It was also a great kiddush Hashem as the British and Americans both warned BG against it.”

    On the contrary it made us appear worse..

    Beforehand there was a tremendous overwhelming latent sympathy for us after the holocaust.Afterwards,”the tough jews will/could take care of themselves”
    (The nazi trials also started to diminish)

    #1270158

    “Miracles”
    Celebrations,Possibly
    Or possibly a Nisayon
    D’varim13:2-6

    #1270627
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Any luck finding it?

    The Gemara says “everyday” which makes more sense than on a day a nes occured.. what would be wrong with saying Hallel on a day a nes occured? Saying it everyday even when nothing occured minimizes hallel so that is “mecharef umegadef”
    (not that the Gemara needs by backing since it says “everyday” and eve nyour peshat that the gemara deosnt say would still only preclude Hallel on a ” regular day (meaning a day that does not call for it).” So if it is said on a day of salavation it still wouldnt be a problem based on your derasha

    As to whether Yom haatzmaut is a day a nes occured, that is a side (albeit related issue).
    you also made several other unsubstantiated claims in your post

    #1270648
    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    Great idea, DY. Any idea when that will be? Oh, I think 9 Av, no? I think then no one will object turning a day of mourning into one of celebration.

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