April 10, 2013 3:41 am at 3:41 am #944620crisisoftheweekMember
That’s a nice trick. Qualifying as a moser or rodef because they espouse an opinion that is different than yours.April 10, 2013 3:47 am at 3:47 am #944621popa_bar_abbaParticipant
That’s a nice trick. Qualifying as a moser or rodef because they espouse an opinion that is different than yours.
You really are clueless, aren’t you.April 10, 2013 11:39 am at 11:39 am #944622samul18Member
Do not repost comments which have been repeatedly deleted.
-127April 10, 2013 12:02 pm at 12:02 pm #944623
ZD, However I do not belive that video tells anything or if it even occured on Yom Hashoa. It was likely done to inflame Anti-Haredi Sentiment
Your even-handedness is noted and appreciated.April 10, 2013 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #944624yichusdikParticipant
DY – you wrote ” the Zionists theme of Kochi veotzem yodi” So you were indeed talking about Zionists rather than Zionism.
But lets assume it was an honest error.
I disagree completely, but I hear where you could look at Zionism from an angle that could be contrived to be described as Kochi… but even in the poetic dreamings of the early Zionists, it was a matter of will to accomplish in the future (for example, im tirzu, ein zo agada) , rather than “see what I have done” in the past, which is what Kochi is about. Once Zionism translated from an articulated dream into a reality that needed to be fought for, it is my opinion, derived from talking to the people who actually fought for it, that any vestige of Kochi…, if there even was one to begin with, went straight out the window as the miracles of Israel’s victories were revealed.
I submit that it is simpler, more logical, and more in line with how Zionism is articulated today, and for several decades, if not most of a century, that for those Zionists who are not motivated as Religious Zionists are, it is much more a matter of “ein somchin al hanes, but we will embrace what is given,” than it is of Kochi…April 10, 2013 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #944625
All one has to do is ride a taxi with a secular driver and see how many times he mentions Hashem.
Even the “100%” seculars know that they are there because of Hashem and His miracles.April 10, 2013 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #944626
I am not going to enter into this controversy because the ones who oppose Yom Hashoah will not change their minds and the ones who respect that day will continue to commemorate it. Just two facts to correct some of the posters: Tisha be’av and Tsom gedalyah were not just instituted by chazal, it is by the novi (tsom harevi-i, hachamishi,etc) so it is divrei nevi-im that we must observe. The aveilus from Rabbi Akiva’s talmidim started in the geonim’s times (check your halacha)and clearly, there were days that were instituted to remember catastrophes (20 sivsan is just one example). And that was quite a while after the gemoro.
But my question to the opponents is more fundamental; they keep on saying that any commemoration should have been done on tisha be’av. Fair enough. So, tell me ,dear posters, do you say the “kinos’ that were made specially for the Holocaust? I suspect that most of you do not say it- thereby proving that you really do not want ANY commemoration. And that, I think, is truly sad.April 10, 2013 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #944627afsherParticipant
You can take a NYC taxi ride and also notice how many times the driver mentions his god everytime someone cuts him off.April 10, 2013 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #944628afsherParticipant
So, tell me ,dear posters, do you say the “kinos’ that were made specially for the Holocaust? I suspect that most of you do not say it- thereby proving that you really do not want ANY commemoration. And that, I think, is truly sad.
Of course I say the special holocaust kinoses every Tisha B’Av. And every shul I’ve ever davened in on Tisha B’Av, both in the city and upstate, has said it. I’ve never been to a shul that skipped it.April 10, 2013 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #944629gavra_at_workParticipant
I’ve never been to a shul that skipped it
Same here.April 10, 2013 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #944630HaKatanParticipant
ROB, it seems your belief in the idolatry of Zionism has now caused you to also be motzi laaz on the rest of Klal Yisrael.
Those kinos are not skipped, as far as I know.
But the lies and treachery of Zionism regarding the Holocaust (which the Zionists have some chutzpah to commemorate given this involvement) is certainly well-hidden and glossed over (unless you research online).April 10, 2013 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #944631
What lies and treachery? And please don’t quote Perfidy.
BTW, if you are against lies and glossing-over, will you admit that many gedolim in Europe screwed up royally and are directly responsible (since people listened to them 100%) for many, many deaths?April 10, 2013 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #944632
DY – you wrote ” the Zionists theme of Kochi veotzem yodi” So you were indeed talking about Zionists rather than Zionism.
I distinguish between those Zionists who ascribe to the Zionist theme of kv”y and those who try not to. I believe that all Zionists are in error for associating with Zionism.
I am also not merely repeating what I have been “conditioned” to believe, I have seen too much pride in the strength of the Israeli armed forces to deny this theme’s existence.April 10, 2013 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #944633
Truthsharer: Forget Perfidy, HaKatan has quoted much worse sources. He has quoted anti-Semites who claim that Jews run the world and that all the militaries of the world work for a Jewish mob boss (he doesn’t quote that claim, just other claims by the same guy).April 10, 2013 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #944634
BTW, where does it say it’s assur to have pride in one’s army? Being proud of your success does not mean that you think KAY.April 10, 2013 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #944635
to afsher and gavra at work: I don’t know where you daven on tisha be’av but I have never davened in a chareidi shul that says any of the new “kinos” (TRav Schwab or the Bobover rebbe).I venture to say that in Lakewood, Williamsburg and other chareidi places (and certainly in Israel) do not say it. prove me wrong.April 10, 2013 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #944636
DY: One does not have to believe in the same thing that the Secular Zionists did in order to thank HKBH on days like Yom Ha’atzma’ut and Yom Yerushalayim or to commemorate the Holocaust on the day that they chose. I personally think they chose the wrong day. That doesn’t mean that I should grossly disrespect those who died and survived by trumpeting my disagreement with the seculars on this issue.
And even though the name in Israel is about Gevurah, if you were ever in any Dati Le’umi or “Modern Orthodox” day school, you’d know that the entire day is somber and about the deceased and the survivors, not about the fighting.April 10, 2013 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #944637
Sam2: That’s akin to making a special bracha or saying Hallel on Good Friday and then justify celebrating Good Friday since you are doing it “correctly” with a bracha and true thanks to the RBS”O, unlike the guys in the Vatican.
Perfidy is not only historically accurate but it is authored by a secular zionist! And HaKatan never quoted such sources you accuse. Whatever are you talking about? Are you confusing it with the times you quoted evidence against Chareidim using Goebbels’ propaganda?April 10, 2013 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #944638
Oh look, we found an account created less than 10 minutes ago accusing me of something in the past. Interesting, OOM, I think we need an official troll call here.
There is a massive difference there. If the Karaites started celebrating Purim would we stop? It happens that not-Frum people celebrate a Yeshua from HKBH. Why should that stop the rest of us? Can you tell me, by the way, what propaganda I ever used against Chareidim?April 10, 2013 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #944639just my hapenceParticipant
Totally off topic, but Joseph – you’ve been quite busy lately haven’t you? That’s, what, 5 or 6 new user names in 2 days… Bored?April 10, 2013 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #944640
Sam2: Except here it is the “Karaites” who formulated and created and assigned this date. So it is more akin to the Good Friday analogy. And first show us where HaKatan ever quoted anti-semites, as you falsely accused.April 10, 2013 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #944641gavra_at_workParticipant
ROB: Bobov says it 🙂April 10, 2013 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #944642
That doesn’t mean that I should grossly disrespect those who died and survived by trumpeting my disagreement with the seculars on this issue.
I agree with that. As I wrote, I am appalled at the possibility that some severely “misguided” (to use a too forgiving term) individuals made a BBQ davka on Yom Hashoah, davka near Yad Vashem.
Yes, I believe that is true. If the focus was on the “gevurah”, I would rethink trumpeting my disagreement.
But the choice of dates still has a treif’e mekor.April 10, 2013 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #944643
Srofin: This is where HaKatan first quoted him (that I saw): http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/does-neturei-karta-have-a-point/page/2#post-342522
This is where I called him out on it: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/does-neturei-karta-have-a-point/page/3#post-342610
This is where he quoted it again several months later: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-was-the-national-anthem-or-g-d-bless-ameirica-not-sung-by-siyum-hashas/page/6#post-403270April 10, 2013 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #944644
DY: I agree that the choice of dates has a bad Makor. But it’s not a celebration. It’s a random date to commemorate. And the date could have been worse. My point is that we do more of a misservice than a service by fighting it. And the other two, which are celebrations, are based on historical events. Those were Yeshuos from HKBH, and the fact that seculars celebrate it also doesn’t detract from that.April 10, 2013 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #944645
Sam: He does not quote any anti-semites other than Bengurion, Weizmann and Gruenbaum if that’s what you consider them. He told you how to google information referencing how the zionists started up with Germany in 1933 causing untold problems, and then you chose a particular google result which you then absurdly attributed to HaKatan having quoted — something he did not. He simply provided a beginning reference on how to generally find information on the issue. (And that issue is factual.)April 10, 2013 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #944646
Ummm, no. The third link, the one quoting the Barnes review. That article was authored by a vicious anti-Semite who claims we run the mafias and militaries of the world.April 10, 2013 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #944647
Um, yes. All there is there is HaKatan followed Josh31’s instructions for him to google a term and HK showed J31 the results found for what he told him to search for.April 10, 2013 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #944648
GAW- yup, I would imagine that in Bobov (wonder which one, though) says it. In some ways, it proves my point. R”Shlomo Halberstam zz’l. who lost his wife, his father and numerous familt members in the Holocaust understood the need for the “kinah”. The ones who decied not to say it-many of them,espcially in Israel- never were part of the Holocaust.April 10, 2013 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #944650
But it’s not a celebration. It’s a random date to commemorate.
I thought we agreed that it wasn’t “random”.
BTW, I forgot to quote your words in my last post. My words,
“Yes, I believe that is true. If the focus was on the “gevurah”, I would rethink trumpeting my disagreement.”
were in response to,
“if you were ever in any Dati Le’umi or “Modern Orthodox” day school, you’d know that the entire day is somber and about the deceased and the survivors, not about the fighting.”.
Please understand though, that chareidim take holocaust commemoration no less seriously than other Yidden; plenty of books have been written, videos released, and programs run in yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs. Holocaust studies are an important part of our kids education. We just don’t specify a day other than 9 b’Av, and recognize, and care about, the fact that the date which was chosen was not at all random, but nefarious.April 10, 2013 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #944651zahavasdadParticipant
The Yom Hashoa BBQ has been debunked in the secular media as Anti-Charedi incitementApril 10, 2013 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #944652Matan1Participant
Why do you think he has the din of a moser?April 10, 2013 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #944653
Thank you for that info, ZD.April 10, 2013 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #944654
Matan: Read his blog. Or better yet, don’t. But some of the stuff he writes is actual Mesirah.April 10, 2013 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #944655
DY: And that’s fine. I don’t think anyone accuses Chareidim of not caring about the Holocaust (except those very few who go shake hands with deniers like the Chilariyah in Iran). I think they (not so wrongly) accuse many of being grossly unsympathetic by making Yom HaShoah more of a political statement than it should be.April 11, 2013 12:59 am at 12:59 am #944656Matan1Participant
I do read his blog. Thats why I asked.April 11, 2013 9:42 am at 9:42 am #944657just my hapenceParticipant
The ‘Joseph’s new screen-names’ count for the last few days is now up to 8. Just so’s the olam are aware…April 11, 2013 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #944658WolfishMusingsParticipant
DovBear is the second-most vile anti-Jewish “Frum” blogger out there
WOO-HOO! I’m #1! I’m #1!!
The WolfApril 11, 2013 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #944659Dovid HaMelechMember
I think he’s third, after failedjew and nonorthodox.April 12, 2013 10:14 am at 10:14 am #944660HaKatanParticipant
It’s amazing how the idolatry of Zionism is so blinding (to Zionists, but so plainly wrong to others) that when confronted with facts that clearly contradict the Zionists’ egel and the laaz put forth by “Religious Zionists”, all a Zionist seems capable to do is to be motzi laaz yet again and, almost as importantly, continue believing in his idol and not even attempt to answer the facts of the issues. This is simply because there are no answers for what these (secular) rishaim did and continue to do.
Again, let’s use Zionist sources, leaving out, liHavdil, the gedolei HaTorah’s clear denunciations of Zionism, including their own recalling of some of the various Zionist perfidies.
Elie Wiesel in his LA Times review of Tom Segev’s book 7th million:
“We know that Zionist leader Itzhak Gruenbaum, a future Minister of the Interior in David ben Gurion’s first cabinet, considered creating new settlements more urgent than saving Jews from being sent to Treblinka and Birkenau.”
And another gem, also from a Zionist source (AICE):
Aileh Elohecha, “Tziyonim”, asher Heviachem LaAvoda Zara shel Ha”Tziyonus”.
The Zionists’ outrageous and utterly foolish bragging that the Holocaust never would have happened had they been around then is such a bald-faced lie, only in part, because of their words and action/inaction during the Holocaust, as mentioned above and as can be found from Rabbi Weismandl’s Min HaMeitzar, for starters. They believed (and stated) that only through blood would they achieve Statehood; so Jewish blood was, in their mind, a perfectly reasonable price to pay. Yet, these reshaim claim, if there would have been an IDF then that would have changed…what, given that attitude above? How ridiculous!
Given the above, it is also very difficult to understand how anyone can think to ascribe any religious significance to Zionism and their holidays.
Anachnu Maaminim binei Maaminim viAin lanu al mi liHishaein ela al avinu sheBaShamayim.
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