December 1, 2018 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #1634925
Not every boy is ready for dating at age 21 but many boys are.
A mature & responsible young man may very well be ready.
Why this matters?
Countless bnos Yisroel may be spared a lifetime of remaining singe if enough boys marry someone close in age. In addition, min the society we live, the nisyonos of a single boy are quite difficult. Marriage at a younger age for a boy that’s ready removes many michsholim.
Your son probably doesn’t feel comfortable starting the conversation, so you will need to have a candid talk with him about beginning shidduchim.
Dovor b’ito mah tov!December 1, 2018 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1634952GadolhadorahParticipant
The artificial pressures to marry at very young ages, for both boys and girls, driven by a fake “shidduch crisis”, only create unnecessary stress and tensions. Let them figure it out for themselves on their own timelines. A boy may be “ready” for marriage in terms of maturity but may want to take time to learn for a year or two w/o the pressure of supporting a family, may want to pursue a secular graduate degree or profession or simply want to take some time to pursue whatever he feels passionate about. Let them decide for themselves.December 1, 2018 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1634999
Why so old? Even 18.
Not every boy is ready for dating at age 18 but many boys are.December 2, 2018 12:26 am at 12:26 am #1635010ANON21Participant
Yes many boys are ready at 21 and I’m all for younger marriages. But this invented shidduch crisis and this solution remains a theory and also borders on kefiraDecember 2, 2018 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #1635255
If your son is 21 & is a mature boy then you should definitely bring up the subject of marriage & whether he would like to begin dating. Hopefully, if more boys marry girls of similar age we won’t have several thousand unmarried older girls like we have today. You don’t need to call it a “crisis” if you find that word disturbing, we can just call it the 2000 missing boys of marriageable age dilemma.December 2, 2018 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1635273
Who decides on ones maturity rediness or readiness in general.
If one says “im signed up on a section 8 list
And plan on going on welfare etc” (all too common) , does that mean hes ready?
If some one says he “plans” on going into chich “one day” (all too common) does that mean hes ready?December 2, 2018 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #1635284agutyarParticipant
Most yeshiva boys in Eretz Yisrael are in shiduchim by the age of 21, so it seems pretty normal to me, though I don’t understand the connection between this and the “shidduch” crises. Some say they should get married older and marry girls a couple of years older older than the boy.December 2, 2018 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #1635288
Takes2 – grow up. You seem like an intelligent human being so much of the time but when this topic comes up you sound like a whiny anti vaxxer. No logic, nust mindless hatred for the lifesryle you obviously know nothing about. Stop acting like a 3 year old and let it go already.December 2, 2018 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #1635291The FrumguyParticipant
I’m sure that 99.99% of parents, when asked, will claim that their son is mature enough to get married. I hate to break it to them, but most of them are NOT.
I encounter Beis Medrash bochurim daily and see how tremendously selfish and uncaring they are. Parents need to have a reality check when it comes to marrying off their children.December 2, 2018 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1635327takahmamashParticipant
Unless a young man of 18 or 21 or whatever is ready to take a job and support his wife according to the obligations of their ketuba, he is not ready for marriage.December 2, 2018 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1635313👑RebYidd23Participant
Selfishness and uncaringness don’t go away with age, they get worse.December 2, 2018 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1635387
Takes2 – grow up. You seem like an intelligent human being so much of the time but when this topic comes up you sound like a whiny anti vaxxer. No logic, nust mindless hatred for the lifesryle you obviously know nothing about. Stop acting like a 3 year old and let it go already.
Firstly u dont know to size me up the way you did. Secondly i don’t stand for political correctness in general and certainly not when p.c. crawls into the yeshivish / chasdidish world.
I call it a spade a spade when i see one, even though i will be steering up some uncomfortable feelings.December 2, 2018 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1635398
Takes2- i agree that you are generally that way..i also dont care about pc and call it like it is. But ive been here long enough and every time this topic comes up younare all over it with all the self control and logic of the anti vaxxers. Its all emotion and no thought. Knee jerk responses.
Sorry. Just calling a spade a spade.December 2, 2018 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1635425
Pleas point out or send me the url of what it it is that bothered u in the past regarding shiduchim of a 21 year old.it would help me understand precisely what is bothering u.December 2, 2018 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1635416justme22Participant
If he is ready why would his parents be the ones telling him he ha ready. If at 24 .. he doesn’t act ready I understand his parents getting involved but a kid who is ready is more likely to decide so on his own that’s part of been ready
I happen to believe that this “ shortage of boys “ mentality is a lack of bitachon. Ussually girls stay single longer not because there are no boys but because boys choose a different type or because she is looking for a different thing or not really looking ( fear , etc)
When a girl becomes what boys consider a good shiduch she will have an easier time and boys also at times have plenty of girls available but none for him – too many small parts to equationDecember 2, 2018 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1635404ZionGateParticipant
In the 2 shuls ( 1 small, 1 midsize) that I daven , there are 11 singles over 22 yrs. of age , counting brothers & sisters. On my block, I counted 7 ( they go to different shuls, so I’m not counting them twice).
Between 5-8 more that are in the neighborhood whom I know casually. There’s no shidduch crisis?
And this is only a 5-10 lock radius.. Yeshivish, not to yeshivish but black hats, even some chassidic, some no hats.
IOW, a mix.
Some parents know others in other neighborhoods who are also single and talk about the problem.. I’ve never encountered this situation before, and it must be going on everyplace except maybe in all chassidic neighborhoods.
There’s a shidduch crisis.December 2, 2018 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1635442justme22Participant
I think there is a shiduch crisis but not because of a shortage rather because everything has become much more complicated for the youth from religion to socioeconomic Issues and also we have a different community system.
Often kids are told what to look for and while trying to listen to their mentors they are not compromising because the advise is not congruent with who they are and one could go on and on for example Lakewood is newish development in Dating ..December 2, 2018 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1635466bochur23europeParticipant
I’m a 24 year old Bochur who just left the Mir, and was in an American yeshiva before, and from my personal experience the age of starting shidduchim is entirely dependant on each individual, I have been in dorms with boys who are 19 and are way more mature than boys who are 21 who I encountered in the Mir.
I have one friend who is 22 who is in the Mir, who hardly leaves his room and he comes home and his parents think he is a top bochur but they have no idea what is going on, where really he is not mature enough to start dating, and they keep throwing ‘top girls’ at him. It’s a very dissallusioned world shidduchim, I have dated girls who judge every boy just by the name of the yeshiva they went to.December 2, 2018 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1635501
If 2000 unmarried American chareidi girls above the age of 25 is not a “crisis ” then I don’t know what else to call it. If getting boys to marry a bit younger can help solve this problem than we should be responsible & try to make it happen.
A lack of bitochon? Helping out other yidden from living a life of loneliness is a mitzva, we don’t apply bitochon to absolve ourselves from mitzvos.
There are countless single girls who are leaving their childbearing age who will never experience the joys of motherhood due to the shortage of boys. It’s baloney that so many boys have left the chareidi world & that explains the shortage.
Some people have shidduch crisis phobia & simply cannot accept that Hashem would allow such a scenario. They think it’s kefira to believe that such a crisis can even happen, let alone trying to fix it. I wasn’t addressing my post to anti shidduch crisis diehards.
There is much the rest of us can do without them.December 2, 2018 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #1635508
Unless a young man of 18 or 21 or whatever is ready to take a job and support his wife according to the obligations of their ketuba, he is not ready for marriage.–
U hit the nail on the head.
Your average bachur today has zero clue as to what it even says in the kesubahlet alone what his responsibilities are.December 3, 2018 8:08 am at 8:08 am #1635630
I don’t think anyone is denying that there are lots of singles of all ages who want to get married but have not yet.
The debate is whether to call this a crisis. Crisis puts people into crisis mode- girls start to panic if they are not married by 20, because they are scared that means they will stay single forever. That puts pressure on people to make hasty decisions, to date before they are ready. We don’t want to exchange a shidduch crisis with a divorce crisis. Let’s take the alarmist reactionist attitude out of it, and try to help people get married without frightening them, making them feel desperate.December 3, 2018 8:08 am at 8:08 am #1635631
“There are countless single girls who are leaving their childbearing age who will never experience the joys of motherhood due to the shortage of boys.”
I have seen numbers presented for the younger set- showing for example, how there are more 20 year old girls than 23 year old boys. But I have not seen numbers or the older set – is there data that a generation earlier there was also an age gap and that there is a shortage of “boys” in their 40s? setting aside that the 35+ men want much younger women..are there really fewer of them?
The issues facing the older singles are different than those facing the younger – and I don’t think shrinking the age gap will solve it. There are many older single guys out there too. If every boy was married but there were lots of single girls left at 35+ then the age gap theory would be correct. But that is not the case. Focusing on the age gap as the answer to the shidduch crisis distracts from other issues that are at play as well, especially among the older set. We need to help the men and women who are single get married- whether it is to maximize their ability to be good spouses, help them remove emotional or other barriers, help them network so that they can find each other, help them climb out of their boxes so that they can consider other boxes. Having 21 year old guys start to date may help the next generation, but it does nothing to help today’s older singles. These are the ones who really need our help and problem solving skills now so they can get married and raise families.December 3, 2018 8:08 am at 8:08 am #1635633
“When a girl becomes what boys consider a good shiduch she will have an easier time ”
I disagree- sometimes it is the girl or boy who is a bit different who is looking for someone a bit different who will be easier to set up since their needs are better defined. It is those who are very typical, who are not any different than hundreds of other girls like them, who do not stand out on a list of other girls like them, and have to compete with hundreds of others for the same shidduchim that have it hard.
Also, it is never a good idea to “become” something that you are not just to get a shidduch.December 3, 2018 9:46 am at 9:46 am #1635703GadolhadorahParticipant
Winnie: Well stated!!!
A boy or girl is not obligated to consider how his/her decision on choosing a life-partner might affect the shidduch prospects of others. It is probably the most important single decision they will make in their lifetimes and should be driven on what works best for the two of them, not on what some CR poster might have speculated about some Fake Shidduch Crisis or how the machatonim will be outraged about a a “mixed marriage” aka litvish bochur marrying girl from some esoteric chassidus they’ve never heard of.December 3, 2018 10:24 am at 10:24 am #1635729
Actually, Chasidish boys marrying Litvish girls might be very helpful in getting the shidduch numbers mismatch eased, and more shidduchim accomplished.December 3, 2018 10:24 am at 10:24 am #1635731ZionGateParticipant
Here’s Shmerl, the town crier in the market:
Hear Ye… !!
Global warmi….oops… Climate Change will yet be the destruction of ye… No shidduch crisis, no evidence..
Hear Ye…. Get ye to Mars, Florida is diappearing by 2019… Hear ye…December 3, 2018 10:44 am at 10:44 am #1635757apushatayidParticipant
40-50 years ago, there were frum yidden, who shidduchim with frum yidden. Yes, chassidishe tended to marry chassidishe, and non chassidishe tended to marry non chassidishe. if you were a shomrei torah ummitzvos you were a candidate for marriage. Fastforward 40 years, wrong camp, wrong seminary, wrong denier stockings, wrong yeshiva in ey, wrong chabura, wrong type of sheitel, wrong shul, everyone is the wrong “shnit”. of course there is a lack of potential shidduchim.December 3, 2018 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1636046
40-50 years ago, there were frum yidden, who shidduchim with frum yidden. Yes, chassidishe tended to marry chassidishe, and non chassidishe tended to marry non chassidishe. if you were a shomrei torah ummitzvos you were a candidate for marriage. Fastforward 40 years, wrong camp, wrong seminary, wrong denier stockings, wrong yeshiva in ey, wrong chabura, wrong type of sheitel, wrong shul, everyone is the wrong “shnit”. of course there is a lack of potential shidduchim.
This is exactly the reason why we have a shidduch crisis today, but of course hardly anyone will admit to it.
To add to the fire so to speak , it is for these very reasons of political correctness and social/ peer pressure that there is such division in klall yisroel.December 3, 2018 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1636099
APY – Yes!!!!
Takes2- YES!!!December 5, 2018 7:33 am at 7:33 am #1637627
APY, et al
The challenges we face face today are in essence an outcome of our successes.
When the frum community was small, it didn’t matter so much what your background was, it just mattered that you were frum. That was an improvement over the previous generation- my grandparents’- when there were so few frum people that it was no so uncommon for a frum person to marry a non-frum person.
Now that there are so many of us, just being frum isn’t enough- the pool of potential matches has to be narrowed to be effective, so people create the differences and nuances in types, schools etc.
Although there were good things about the olden days, we cannot reverse the clock, and we have to deal with the reality today, as nice as nostalgia is. (Also, don’t fool yourselves that there was no discrimination in shidduchim back then- I don’t think you would often see a Hungarian-Polish intermarriage, for example; there were factors back then that did matter that we would not consider important criteria today.)
Another thing, considering how many we are today, how mobile and inter-connected, a problem that affects even a small percent of our society translates into a large number of people, a critical mass that becomes very visible, hence a “crisis”. So even if the same percent of our community is not getting married as 40-50 years ago or 100 years ago (I don’t know if this is true- does anyone have data comparing today to back then?) it’s a lot more individuals.December 5, 2018 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1637929casperParticipant
A 21 year old boy may be ready for marriage, but he also may not. As with everything in life, it depends on the specific person in their specific situation. It’s best to listen to him and not pressure into taking such a huge step in his life if he is not ready.August 29, 2019 10:38 am at 10:38 am #1781191
Did anyone ever think that maybe the 21 year old boys are not mature enough because they don’t have to be?
Maybe if they knew they were starting shidduchim at 21 they would be different.
If girls knew that they weren’t starting until 23, they would also act like babies.August 29, 2019 10:38 am at 10:38 am #1781192
Everyone has to take responsibility for the pain and anguish of another person, let alone thousands and thousands of girls.
Even a girl at 23 years old who is not considered an “older single” (although maybe a Lakewood girl would be), is still going through endless pain and suffering.
Let’s stop this shidduch crisis now.August 29, 2019 10:39 am at 10:39 am #1781196philosopherParticipant
Interesting, in the Chassidishe world boys are considered ready by 19, in some Chassidishe cirlces they even start shidduchim by 18. Most Chassidishe married men also start working at an earlier age than Yeshivishe men. Men starting shidduchim by 18-19 and working to support their families is more in line with what Chazal had in mind.
I really don’t get why Yeshivishe boys start shidduchim by 24. You don’t necessarily mature as you grow older, middos simply become more entrenched if one never worked on their middos at an earlier age. A boy or girls who is selfish by age 18 will most often be just as selfish, and sometimes even more, at age 24.August 29, 2019 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1781210lowerourtuition11210Participant
Along with other age related issues we have waited until we felt that our children were ready. We did not predetermine an age but based on their maturity and ability to support themselves once married is one our considerations.August 29, 2019 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1781251yungerman1Participant
IMHO, most boys are NOT ready when they turn 21.
Secondly, why not encourage girls to not date until they turn 20-21? This will result in an immediate smaller pool of girls, and hopefully the trend can continueAugust 29, 2019 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1781309
Unfortunately divorce rates in the Frum community are on the rise. I believe this is because many people are not prepared for what marriage is about, and have false expectations. When those expectations aren’t met, they think they made a mistake, and end things. They don’t realize that divorce won’t solve their misconceptions.
I believe very strongly that encouraging 21 year old boys to get married is just going to exasperate the problem. They’re even less likely to be mature enough to know what it takes to have a successful marriage.
I think a better solution for the shidduch crisis is remove the arbitrary and ridiculous stigma against dating a girl older than you. The 24 year old guys should be encouraged to date 24 year old girls, and above. Obviously not a 40 year old woman, but a year or two is no big deal, and a 26 year old with G-d’s help can have many children. So that’s no excuseAugust 29, 2019 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1781359👑RebYidd23Participant
If your son is old enough to get married, it’s not your decision to make.August 29, 2019 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1781414
@RebYidd23 you can’t make decisions for your kids, but it is a parent’s responsibility to try to stop their kids from making irresponsible and reckless life decisions, that affect others as well as themselves. Plus, if they want support (which at 18/21 they’ll need), they’d best listen to their parents.August 29, 2019 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1781413CTLAWYERParticipant
Has your 21 year old learned a trade, finished the required education to get a professional or tradesman’s license; prepared to work and earn enough of a living to support a wife/children without parental or government welfare?
If the answer is no, he is not prepared for marriageAugust 29, 2019 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1781401
IMHO, most boys are NOT ready when they turn 21.
Secondly, why not encourage girls to not date until they turn 20-21? This will result in an immediate smaller pool of girls, and hopefully the trend can continue
What will they do until age 20?August 29, 2019 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1781403
“Unfortunately divorce rates in the Frum community are on the rise. I believe this is because many people are not prepared for what marriage is about, and have false expectations. When those expectations aren’t met, they think they made a mistake, and end things. They don’t realize that divorce won’t solve their misconceptions.”
I think more importantly people are too quick to get engaged/married, to someone who may not be right for them, because they are worried that they chalilah won’t ever get married. If boys dated at 21 there would be no shidduch crisis hence no one worried.
“I think a better solution for the shidduch crisis is remove the arbitrary and ridiculous stigma against dating a girl older than you. The 24 year old guys should be encouraged to date 24 year old girls, and above. Obviously not a 40 year old woman, but a year or two is no big deal, and a 26 year old with G-d’s help can have many children. So that’s no excuse”
Agree 100%!!! This is just a meshugas in the head of marriageable boys and their mothers.August 29, 2019 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1781444
In my Torah I see that Chazal wrote Shemona Esrei L’Chuppa.
Does anyone else have a different version? Or does anyone know better than Chazal and decided to disregard them?August 29, 2019 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1781492
@Joseph they also encouraged getting married at 14. No gadol today would advocate that, and you know it. Times have changed.August 29, 2019 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1781473kj chusidParticipant
I really never understood the logic of the frum litvishe who are makpid on shulchan aruch, but when it comes to
Shidduchim they 1. Disregard the first part even hazer 2.disregard halachos such as yichud and general rules of tznius for the so called dating process.August 29, 2019 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1781477bk613Participant
Which current day, Litvish American Rabbanim support and encourage boys to get married at 18? Do all the ones that don t support it not know the Torah?August 29, 2019 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1781507
bk613: I don’t know of a single Litvish godol in the world that ever said not to get married at 18. If you know of any please advise who.August 30, 2019 12:56 am at 12:56 am #1781520Yossel PupikParticipant
Philosopher – The reason why litfishe bochurim marry at 24 while chasidishe marry younger is because in the litfishe Yeshiva system (which is geared to teach bochurim how to learn, not just robotic blatt memorization) is about 3 years post bais medrash post high school and then 1-2 years in EY and BMG freezer, which brings them to 23-24.
Joseph – see Kiddushin 29b הא לן והא להו. In short, if your learning won’t be disrupted by being married you should marry at 18, but if you are like most people who have obligations to their family which will take you away from learning then בן י”ח לחופה doesn’t apply to youAugust 30, 2019 5:14 am at 5:14 am #1781537leibyParticipant
theories why there is a shiduch crisis is garbage if the boys get married at 24 and the girls at 19 math dictates a crisis end of storyAugust 30, 2019 7:50 am at 7:50 am #1781532
Yossel P: And what’s the (non-)excuse for working boys or for anyone else not in yeshiva learning? Or for girls, for that matter.
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