Your 21 year old son may be ready for marriage

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  • #1781533

    rational
    Participant

    I believe very strongly that encouraging 21 year old boys to get married is just going to exasperate the problem.

    I am exasperated by the exacerbation of ignorance of the English language here.

    #1781534

    philosopher
    Participant

    Yossel Pupek, there are Chassidishe masmidim and metziunim learning in Chassidishe yeshivas and talmidei chachumim who actually “know how to learn” as you put it and there are also Yeshivishe (I think Litvish is the wrong term as the majority of so-called Litvishe are not Litvaks, they do not shtam from Litvishe families at all…) who hutzka around and have a lot of fun in EY while they are supposed to be shteiging away so there goes the “years in EY”… There is no “everyone is like this here and everyone is like that there” reality.

    And a boy can learn in kollel after marriage as most Chassidishe do. The money that Yeshivishe spend on relatively “older” boys and girls relative to Chassidishe boys and girls getting married at an earlier age, is costs a bomb for Yeshivishe parents. Yeshivishe girls go to sem in Israel and then college and boys are learning till they start shidduchim at age 24 and beyond…while Chassidishe young women, generally married at age 18-21, are working in offices supporting their young families while the husbands are shteiging AND REALLY LEARNING (hopefully actually…but the possibility is there if one wants it) in kollel while the shver gives pennies ($200 or so monthly ) or nothing to the couple accordingly to Yeshivishe parents who generally “supports” couples long term …

    After the couple has a kid or two (in ah gitte shu…) the Chassidishe husband goes to work as it says in the kesubah it is the husband’s chiav to provide for the wife not vice versa. And it’s the wife’s job to bring up the kids! If a woman wants to work and has the right kind of job job where she can be home when her child comes home from work then that’s fine too- the family doesn’t revolve around the mother’s job/career.

    And back to the learning issue, what about the Yeshivishe living in EY who generally start shidduchim at age 21? They don’t learn, only robotically memorize gemara?

    I’m not a man so I can’t say for sure but I believe talmidei yeshiva learn according to their abilities and preferences, some with memorization and some by deep analysis. In all yehsivas I believe, certainly in Chassidishe, there are different shuirim and maggidei shurim who delve deep or skim through and certainly are in kollel one can choose chavrusas according to the way thry want to learn. There’s something for every type of learner in yeshiva unlike in frum girls schools where almost EVERYTHING is REALLY taught by memorization.

    #1781536

    leiby
    Participant

    and to all those talking about economic security i noticed that by 24 they do have degrees right?! maybe from bmg

    #1781541

    flowerpot
    Participant

    we just married our son off at 21 to a girl who’s 23 .
    our friends all commented how amazing it is that we are helping to solve the shidduch crises .
    no shidduch crises in our home , simply because we are open minded and found wonderful shidduchim for our children , looking past backgrounds ( we are both ffb wirh the ‘right’ last names with money that didn’t give us a particular happy childhood ) and our children are married to wonderful ppl and are blissfully happy!
    If more people
    would be like us there would be no shidduch crises !
    Our friends are all in this parsha and as much as they claim they would take anyone , anything , there is always a but . just not that, just that one thing not. sorry but the shidduch crises is self made !

    #1781535

    leiby
    Participant

    yossel pupik: i don’t appreciate amaratzus on that same daf it says hu lun vehu lehu and rashi explains that it means that if you have hirhurim you should get married anyways. furthermore if you’ll open a shulchan aruch even ezer 1:3 you’ll see in the niesei kelim that not marring because of bittul torah is only if you defeated your yetzer hora. i don’t believe that that all litvishe bochurim have no hirhurim hence according to halacha they must get married before 20.

    #1781558

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Takes 2
    Please don’t start with the holding to the kesubah so boys should work and not learn.
    Do you know what the conditions of the kesubah are?
    How much is a husband actually required to give his wife? (hint it doesn’t include a new car lease every two years, nor multiple new clothes every yom tov, nor new clothes for the big children at all,)
    Do you know that how many women lost their rights to their kesubah because they walk outside with their hair / legs showing?
    Or you just know “boys have to go to work stop wasting time learning?, it says it in the kesubah “

    #1781564

    philosopher
    Participant

    Most Yeshivishe girls today don’t get engaged by 19 as they are in seminary or pursuing a degree and girls these days, many Chassidishe included, are generally more picky so it usually takes a longer time to find the right one. But still, 24 year old boys getting engaged to 20 year old girls is for sure contributing to the shidduch crisis.

    In some Chassidishe circles girls are not in a rush to get married and they get engaged by 20 or 21 and oftentimes the boy is younger by a year or so. In my opinion if this trend continues, there will be a glut of “older bachurim” of age 21 and older years of age on the market. Its a Chassidishe shidduch crisis looming in some circles h”y if this trend continues. This upcoming trend excludes Sqvere, Monsey Viznitz, Satmer where the boys and girls generally go at a younger age of 17, 18 and 19 and they are generally not as picky and have “old-fashioned” ideals of kids marrying as soon as possible which has both pros and cons. Of course everything is bashert, but there are trends of thought patterns in each generation and I personally think that although going too quickly is not ideal ( although many are very successful with this shittah) girls going later age of 21+ in the Chassidishe oilim and Yeshivisha boys starting shidduchim at age 24 is playing with fire.

    Although to be honest my daughter-in-law is a year older than my son, when I did the shidduch I had no clue that this is a new Chassidishe trend, but it she is the right girl for my son b”H. Shidduchim are bashert and the bottom line is that we don’t have much say even though we think we do, but it is also the truth that if this trend continues it is a shidduch crisis waiting to happen because by the time girls are ready to get married at age 21, there are boys years 18+ on the market so the pool of boys become bigger and the boys that are a year or two older than the girls have a smaller chance of finding a shidduch.

    Again, everything is bashert and everyone should do what is right for them, but trends where everyone does the same thing is still dangerous.

    #1781571

    bk613
    Participant

    “I don’t know of a single Litvish godol in the world that ever said not to get married at 18. If you know of any please advise who.”
    I would imagine all the Rabbonim who signed the various Kol Koreah encouraging boys to date at 21 are opposed to them dating at 18. If they all agree with you, why aren’t they pushing (or even suggesting) to start at 18 (12th grade)?
    The way our society and educational system is currently structured 18 year old boys are not ready to get married. If you want to promote changing the system, fine, but the vast majority of 12th grade boys have no business getting married.

    #1781575

    Joseph
    Participant

    bk613: “I would imagine all the Rabbonim who signed the various Kol Koreah encouraging boys to date at 21 are opposed to them dating at 18.”

    That’s an assumption (or as you put it yourself, your “imagination”) and a wrong one at that. The current standard in the hamon hoam is 22-23. By encouraging 21 they’re seeking to encourage younger marriages in a manner that they feel the hamon hoam might listen. If they encourage an immediate jump from 23 to 18 they know they’ll be ignored.

    But that doesn’t demonstrate they oppose 18. I note you’ve still failed to answer the simple question of naming *any* Litvish Gedolim that are on the record as opposing marriage at 18.

    There are none.

    But maybe you know better than Chazal.

    Philosopher: The glut of extra Chasidishe boys can marry the glut of extra Litvishe girls. This trend is also happening somewhat and has picked up over the last decade or more.

    Leiby and KlugerYid: Excellent comments.

    #1781608

    philosopher
    Participant

    Joseph, Chassidishe boys marrying Yeshivishe girls is not a trend, they are exceptions, which will continue to happen but I can guarantee you it will not become a trend, certainly not in the next 100 years unless Moshiach comes before and things may be different. These kind of marriages are not new, “neutral” Chassidim CAN BE (but are not necessarily) similar to Yeshivisha/Litvishe but with shtreimlach and have “intermarried” for decades. Also, if people have what some consider “issues” that are hard to surmount within their communities they can “marry out” if they care more about shidduchim than others’ shittas. But most Chassidim are not neutral and would never make such a shidduch and vice versa- the average Yeshivishishe, no matter the age, will not be seeking to marry a Chassidishe person.

    Also for some for whom this has worked are those who do not follow their parents derech and become more “modern” in levush and custom and they are more open to mixing with different types. But also this type of mixing is few and far in between, it is more common for these people to find their other “modern” half with backgrounds like their own.

    #1781615

    bk613
    Participant

    Joseph, you have also failed to answer my question to name a single American Litvish Rav who is on the record supporting boys dating at 18. I’ll also point out that I asked you first. Saying that “its a Chazal so surely they support it for this generation too” isn’t a legitimate answer. Rabbonim oversaw the creation of the current Yeshiva system, are you implying they forgot/ignored this Chazal?

    Please answer this, and not with a simple yes or no: Regardless if it’s right or wrong, do you believe that 12th grade yeshiva boys in 2019 are fully prepared for marriage?

    #1781667

    refoelzeev
    Participant

    I find it interesting that Joseph has failed to comment on my point. Shtika kehodaah?

    #1781665

    klugeryid
    Participant

    Bk613
    Can you name me a single American rav who has good on record stating that one should eat Matzah on the first night of pesach?

    No they are not ready. Because they don’t need to be.
    Humans are procrastinators.
    If they had to be ready, they would be just as ready as they are at 24

    #1781666

    leiby
    Participant

    I know 2 chasanim that are 19 u couldn’t find more mature or responsible people. I also know a 22 year old chosen who is not mature at all. Age is apparently not a metric.

    #1781732

    Yossel Pupik
    Participant

    Leiby – Rashi on קידושין כט says no such thing, in fact he says that בני בבל should marry first and then learn so that they won’t have הרהורים, however בני א”י who will be distracted by family obligations should learn first and then marry (EVEN THOUGH they will have הרהורים). You are actually referring to the רמב”ם brought by the ב”ש in שו”ע who says that מי שיצרו תוקפו should marry first. This is can be interpreted as an extreme case of הרהורים, hardly a פירכא on the litfishe Yeshiva system.
    Before you call someone an am haaretz you should check your sources.

    #1781733

    Haimy
    Participant

    The Brisker Rov was 16 by his engagement. Chazal have harsh words for someone unmarried by age 21. A successful magid shiur told me that it’s not talked about but mechanchim are aware of the difficulty litvishe bochrim face due to the delayed opportunity to get married. It’s a win win for both boys & girls to begin marriage closer to 20 when a boy is mature enough.

    #1781740

    Yossel Pupik
    Participant

    Philosopher – I was referring to the litfishe system as apposed to the chasidishe system. Of course you will have serious guys and hutzkeners on both sides, the point is what the  system is designed to do for those who take it seriously.
    Learning after kollel does not address the issue, as whatever the amount of time he will stay in kollel, whether it’s 5 or 10 years, once he gets married his clock is ticking. The later he gets married, especially if he stays in B”M shiur long enough to get a mahalech in learning, he’ll stay in learning longer.
    In EY they’re basically in kollel for life so this isn’t that much of an issue, hence the 21 age of getting married.
    Referring to the kesuba, if the wife is mochel on any chiuv the husband has then he isn’t obligated anymore. Practically any case of the husband learning is only possible if the wife wants him to, so any talk of kesuba isn’t relevant

    #1781746

    philosopher
    Participant

    Yossel Pupik, there were great tzaddikim who married early and our great Sages worked while learning. Starting shidduchim at 24 is ridiculous…And you didn’t answer me regarding Yeshivisha Israelis starting shidduchim at 21- are they weaker learners than all the groisse American talmidie chochomim who start dating at 24?

    #1781756

    Yossel Pupik
    Participant

    Philosopher – Again, I’m not talking about great sages. I’m talking about a system designed for average bochurim, who, if they take it seriously will develop a mahalech in learning which they will take with them their whole life.
    I did address the Israeli system. I compared the American system where for the most part the yungerman has a ticking clock from when he gets married until he needs to go to work. The Israeli yungerman, however has no clock he’s in kollel for life. BTW I heard from Americans who learned in Ponevezh and Chevron that Israelis are better than Americans in bekius, but Americans are much better lamdonim.

    #1781825

    philosopher
    Participant

    Yossel Pupik, I don’t know any Yeshivisha men well and no bucharim at all, so I can’t really tell, but I’m skeptical that there’s no negative side effects on the majority of bachurim by marrying so late.

    I’m not saying a boy should get married by 18, 19, although most of the boys I know are serious boys who go on/went on to set up beautiful families , but by 20,21 it’s important to establish a family. Learning long term if applicable, i.e the wife having a job that doesn’t put the family in second place or the shver HAVING the money and willing to help out, can be done after getting married. You did try to convince me that American boys “need” to learn till age 24 unlike Israeli boys who are in shidduchim by 21 because they will always be in kollel. I don’t buy that. American boys can get married and be in kollel too.

    #1781823

    shvuger12
    Participant

    I don’t know if there “is or isn’t a shidduch crisis”. Nor have I spent the time to think whether there is or isn’t a haskafik issue with the concept of a shidduch crisis.

    What I do know is that there is a major compatibility problem. The older boys who are of dating age in the yeshiva world have significantly more exposure and gashmiyus then the girls who are supposedly looking to marry those guys. There are significantly more girls who just want a serious learning guy, then guys who want to marry the girls who only want yeshivish guys.

    #1781983

    Joseph
    Participant

    That isn’t a compatibility problem; it is a mathematical problem. There are simply more girls than boys, overall, in shidduchim.

    #1781981

    leiby
    Participant

    yossel u might want to check the other sources

    #1782303

    Yossel Pupik
    Participant

    Leiby – Groiser Talmid Chuchem, which sources are you referring to?

    #1782078

    akuperma
    Participant

    I question whether anyone has the knowledge and experience for marriage until they are well past middle age. Fortunately, Ha-Shem “programmed” people to get married well before they are ready, thereby giving all the kids a “learning experience” and securing the future of the human race.

    #1782502

    philosopher
    Participant

    akuperma, that’s right. No one is ready for marriage, you have to work on marriage by working on middos. Couples are compatible if they have an attraction for each other and share interests. After marriage it’s working on the marriage that makes long term compatibility.

    The age of marriage, whether 20 or 30, doesn’t make one more “ready” to get married.

    #1783375

    familygirl
    Participant

    Refraining from causing tzaar to the countless girls is more important than going to Israel for 3 years while being single. You can go after you’re married.

    #1783632

    Yossel Pupik
    Participant

    Familygirl – I happen to agree with you, I don’t think that eliminating the 2 years in EY will lower the overall level of learning. If anything, it would be beneficial. Some do gain from their years in EY (I was 1 of them) but most either don’t gain anything or see a yerida in their ruchnius. And sending 1000s of 20 somethings away with practically 0 hashgacha is not a recipe for success.
    What bothers me is that this is not being talked about as an option for eliminating the age gap. Rather, what the “marry at 21” crowd is saying is that bochurim should go to EY at 19-20 so that they come back at 21, effectively depriving them of their formative years of learning in post high school B”M, but C”V not to eliminate the learning in EY.
    Another point to address this age gap thing. We’re talking about at most 5% of girls who will be left out R”L. However, we need to take into account the higher divorce rate which will inevitably happen if we lower the marriage age across the board. Yes, many are ready for marriage at 21 but many are not. Why is it better to have divorced girls than to have single girls?

    #1783643

    rational
    Participant

    “The Brisker Rov was 16 by his engagement. Chazal have harsh words for someone unmarried by age 21. ”

    Misleading.
    The Brisker Rov married at age 24
    Rav Chaim his father married at age 20.

    #1783682

    Joseph
    Participant

    Lowering the age of marriage will lower the divorce rate not raise it. As singles get older and being unmarried start having unrealistic meshgasim about what they expect from marriage and a spouse, and are then disappointed when their fantasies are unrealized; whereas marrying younger and more innocent before developing those unhealthy expectations will enhance their marriage that they started earlier in their lives.

    Look at the Chasidish and Eretz Yisroel divorce rate (where they marry younger) compared to the non-Chasidish/non Eretz Yisroel divorce rate (where the average age at marriage is a bit higher). The former have a lower rate of divorce.

    #1783396

    devny
    Participant

    Older single women are more likely to maintain a high spiritual level than older single men. Most older single men end up going off the derech as a way to solve their problems.

    By the way, my husband is 6 years younger than me, and he’s a ultra – chassiddishe FFB and I’m a baalas teshuva. So we scored like 20,000 points against the “crisis” when we got married! Our shadchan was like, “dude, I totally won the jackpot, you guys owe me $1.5 billion”.

    #1783739

    rational
    Participant

    “I don’t know of a single Litvish godol in the world that ever said not to get married at 18. If you know of any please advise who.”
    ” Chazal have harsh words for someone unmarried by age 21. ”

    The above are interesting statements that carry no weight.
    After some research, here are some facts:
    Age of Litvish Godol at his marriage:
    Brisker Rov : 24
    Rav Aharon Kotler: 22
    Steipler Gaon: 28
    Rav Schach: 26
    Rav Moshe Feinstein: 27
    Rav Chaim Kaniefsky: 24

    #1784083

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Older single women are more likely to maintain a high spiritual level than older single men.”

    What evidence do you have of this? I don’t believe it holds water.

    #1784155

    devny
    Participant

    Joseph, my dear husband, it’s plainly obvious. Just open your eyes and look around.
    Oh, and don’t forget to leave the back door unlocked on your way out this morning, I gave the house key to Mrs. Goldenschwartzenberg so she could put up the kugel.

    #1784250

    politics256
    Participant

    Yes go ahead get him married. A possibility you should consider, he may get divorced in the next year or two, maybe even with a child who he will have to support and fight to have a relationship with and see.

    #1784299

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Avoid divorce by remaining single for life.

    #1785512

    devny
    Participant

    My aunt’s cousin’s nephew got married at 21, and he was super mature. So it must be that all boys at 21 are.
    Sound logic. Irrefutable. Unequivocal.

    #1786917

    frumtd
    Participant

    Encourage more girls to wait till they are 22-24 to get married. That will also solve the shidduch crisis. And girls can do that without making boys change. Boys have an obligation to support their family. How is a 19/20 year old girl able to take on that commitment before she has finished schooling. Further, things like automatic tuition breaks for kollel families is equivalent to support via tzedaka which goes against the dictates of chazal. Better to collect garbage than to take charity. So, going into life with the opinion that you will suffice with jobs that cannot provide for a family, just does not seem right to me.

    #1786918

    frumtd
    Participant

    It should also be noted that in the chassidic world there are tremendous problems related to getting married at young ages. There are numerous cases and it is growing each year of boys or girls deciding after they are married they are not feeling the religion and it creates tremendous problems. There are many divorces related to this and many more families where people remain married but in these messed up relationships. You have a whole generation of kids growing up exposed to every sort of filth on the internet. Even chassidic yeshivos that tried banning the internet in the home instead off the record only push that the parents watch tv and movies in the car or in the office, but not in the home where the kids sees it. Frankly, in todays messed up environment where so many are not honest or sure where they are at when at aged 20, pushing people to get married at a young age is just a growing recipe for disaster.

    #1789762

    Rabbi of Crawley
    Participant

    If boys marry girls aged 18, 19 who just left school and need mama all day, that is the shidduch crisis

    #1790213

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Funny how the frum world considers boys 21 to be ready. In the real world, ready means ready to support a wife and then a family. Being responsible is part of being mature. Being supported by someone else does not necessarily mean such a person is ready. Ready for marriage? Seems more like a boy at 21 just moves from his mother taking care of him to a wife while he sits in yeshiva. When I was 21 I probably could have gotten married if that’s what being ready means. Girls are so eager–or desperate–they are just happy to be married regardless if the guy is mature, able and willing to support, or handle issues that come up in a marriage

    #1790223

    Joseph
    Participant

    flatbusher: the frum world is the real world. The rest of the world is crazy. In Europe we got married in our early teens. Even in America most states have minimum marriage ages of between 14 and 16. Even New York’s minimum age for marriage was 14 until less than 2 years ago. Massachusetts’ minimum is 12 for girls and 14 for boys. California has no minimum age.

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