YWN Coffee Room Nightly D’Var Torah
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- This topic has 1,881 replies, 126 voices, and was last updated 2 months, 1 week ago by Shlomo_123.
February 16, 2009 2:06 am at 2:06 am #1123751
nossond: sorry i did indeed read it!!! i liked it!!! shkoyach R’ Nossond!!!!February 16, 2009 3:36 am at 3:36 am #1123752
R’ nossond: well, you didn’t give me a chance to log on and read it, till tonite, i found it very fascinating too, it was great.$
all others: great divrei torah.$February 16, 2009 4:23 am at 4:23 am #1123753BemusedParticipant
These are quite good! Thank you!February 16, 2009 5:24 am at 5:24 am #1123755
thank you all for your inputs into the divrei torah you share with us. i will not have access to my computer for a couple days so i wanted to ask if the tuesday nite dvar torah can be l’iyluy nishmas my father- yona ben naftoli hertz z’l. 24th of shvat. my father’s dream was to live in eretz yisroel, which boruch hashem, was zoche to for almost 20 years. thank you.amichaiFebruary 16, 2009 6:36 am at 6:36 am #1123756
*****Monday’s D’var Torah*********
Birchos Ha-shachar-The Nature of These Berakhot:
by:Rav David Brofsky
The gemara (Berakhot 35a) teaches that it is prohibited to benefit from this world without first reciting a bracha. In fact, the gemara equates such behavior with me’ila (inappropriate use of items dedicated to a shul). This comparison is generally applied to the bracha made before eating and drinking. The Mishna Berura explains that this is also the rationale behind the establishment of birchos ha-shachar, in that one should recite a bracha upon every aspect of the natural order from which one benefits.
The Rishonim, however, raise a fascinating question. There are three broad categories of brachos: birchos ha-mitzva (recited before the performance of a mitzva), birchos ha-nehenin (recited before eating, drinking or smelling fragrances) and birchos ha-shevach (recited upon seeing or hearing something which warrants praise and gratitude).
Clearly, the birchos ha-shachar are a type of birchos ha-shevach. However, there may be different types of birchos ha-shevach. Most birchos ha-shevach are recited only after one has actually experienced the phenomenon upon which the bracha is recited. Therefore, only one who eats bread recites birchos ha-mazon, only one who hears thunder recites “she-kocho u-gevurato malei olam,” and only one who sees a spectacular mountain or sea recites “oseh ma’aseh bereshis”. On the other hand, is it possible that there are some birchos ha-shevach that one recites upon the mere existence of this natural occurrence, even if one has not actually experienced it oneself?
The Rambam writes that one should only recite these brachos as one performs the associated actions. For instance, as one fastens one’s belt one recites “ozer Yisrael bi-gevura,” and as one puts on one’s shoes one recites “she-asa li kol tzorki”. Furthermore, one who does not experience one of these occurrences, such as a person who does not hear the rooster crowing, should not recite the corresponding bracha!
Others disagree, claiming that these brachos refer broadly to the natural order created by Hashem and one must recite these brachos whether or not one actually benefits from or experiences the specific phenomenon.
While Rav Yosef Karo(Shulchan Aruch)rules that one who does not benefit from the theme of a specific bracha should recite an abridged bracha(without mentioning Hashem’s name), the Rema rules that common practice is to recite all of these brachos, regardless of one’s personal experience. (Sefaradim also follow this practice, as it was endorsed by the Ari z”l.)February 17, 2009 2:36 am at 2:36 am #1123757
asdfghjkl: that was great, thanx.$
mod72: sorry i can’t post one tonite.$February 17, 2009 3:46 am at 3:46 am #1123758
qwertyuiop: thanx my dear friend qwertyuiop!!! your welcome!!! i’m waiting for your’s when you can!!!February 17, 2009 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1123759
Since it is after Shkiah here in Yerushalayim (and thus ?”? ???), I will post (Not sure yet if I will do tomorrow as well)
This dvar torah is ??”? ?’ ???? ?”? ????? ????, who was taken from us 1 year ago, too young and too soon. We all miss him.
In this weeks Parsha, Mishpatim, it says:
??-???? ??? ???, ?? ??-???? ??? ??–??? ?????; ????-??? ???, ?? ????. ?? ??? ???? ????
When a man will open a pit, or when a man will dig a pit and not cover it… The “owner of the pit shall make restitution.
(Side note, ??? in Gematria (mispar katan) is 10, because one is only obligated on a pit of at least 10 tfachim)
The Vilna Gaon asks, why is the word ???, pit, written in full when referring to the opening (creating) of a pit, and written without the vav, ??, at the end of the passuk (will dig and not cover)?
The Gra answers that this is an allusion to a famous Chazal. Chazal state (Bava Kama) that if someone digs a pit of 9 t’fachim, and then someone else comes an makes this pit a pit of 10 tfachim, the 2nd guy is obligated for all damages caused by the pit, despite the fact he could argue he only did 10%.
This is why it says, ??-???? ??? ???, He created was a pit of 10 tfachim, he is obligated, since nothing else needs to be done to make this a halachic pit. Here it is written ??? in full, since it is not missing anything.
However, ??-???? ??? ??, even though he did not dig all 10 on his own, he is equally obligated.
There is a tremendous mussar here for us to see. Often we do not take the entire picture into account before doing things. We need to recognize that failing to do so can cause us to to harm. The second person only dug 1 tefach, but that was enough to make him obligated for the entire pit (despite the fact that the other 9 were done by others). Likewise we must be conscience of our surroundings and the entire picture when dealing with people. Lest we dig that final tefach.February 17, 2009 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1123760
JayMatt19: great vort!!! ?’ ???? ?”? ????? ???? ‘s neshama should have an aliyah!!!February 18, 2009 6:59 am at 6:59 am #1123761
JayMatt: shkoyach, ?’ ???? ?”? ????? ???? neshama should have an aliyah.$February 18, 2009 10:06 am at 10:06 am #1123762
This dvar torah is ??”? ?’ ???? ?”? ????? ????, who was taken from us 1 year ago, too young and too soon. We all miss him (and thanks to everyone who came to the siyum last night).
As well as Amichai’s father yona ben naftoli hertz z’l
The nishamos should have a aliya.
The following is taken from R’ Schwab on Prayer.
Why 18 brachos? Why did the anshei kneses hagedolah establish the Amida prayer with 18 brachos (the 19th was added later)? What is the significances?
Quite a few reasons have been sited by the Chachamim
-?? ???? ??? ???? ?”? ?????? ??????? ???, (Gemarra Brachos) – Corresponding to the 18 times Hashem’s name appears in Krias Shema
– (Yerushalmi in Brachos) ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ????- Corrsponding to the 18 times the names Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov appear as a unit in the Torah
– ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ?”? ??????? ????? ????? ????, Corresponding to the 18 times it says “???? ??? ?’, ??-???. In pekudei, talking about the construction of the mishkan
– (Midrash Tanchuma) – Corresponding to the 18 perakim of tehillim (from the beginning until #19, ???? ???-?, ???? ???). According to our siddurim ???? ???-?, ???? ??? is number 20. The gemarra says that the 1st 2 are counted as one. When the chachamim added the 19th bracha to the amida, they were spit into 2, so that there would be 19 tehillim prior to ???? ???-?, ???? ???. Perhaps, when the Bracha of ????????????????? is no longer needed, they will be counted as one, once again.
– ?”? ??? ???? ??’ ????? ?? ????? ???? ?”? ?????? ???? ??? (?????? ??) ???? ??’ ??? ????. Corresponding to the 18 times Dovid HaMelech mentions the hame of Hakadosh baruch Hu in the Midmor, ???? ??’ ??? ????.
– R’ Saadia Gaon, in his siddur, says that he counted 18 times in which the Torah mentions that someone said a tfillah to Hashem. He also mentions the fact that the Torah designated 18 days in the year as Yomim Tovim (Pesach -7, Succos -7, Shavuos -1, Rosh HaShana -1, Yom Kippor -1, Shmini Atzeres -1).
All of these are instances in which there is a factor of 18, but what is the significance?
(Gemara, Brachos) ?”? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??????:
To correspond to the 18 bones in the spine
???? ?’ ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ??????
When we bow during davening, we must do so to the point where all of the joints in the spine are open as it says “?? ??????, ?????? ???-?, ?? ???? All my limbs will say: Hashem, who is like you”.
Based on this, all the aforementioned instances where the number 18 is cited as the source for the amida being 18 brachos, are based on the fact that the number 18 represents the physical framework of the human being, and thus the number 18 is ideal symbolism to express the essence of tfilla, namely:
We are offering our entire body and soul as a korban to HaKadosh Baruch Hu through our tfilla. This is the meaning of ?? ??????, ?????? ???-?, ?? ????, and this is why we begin the Shmoneh Esrei by bowing down and involving our entire body in the tfilla.February 18, 2009 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #1123763
Mods, I don’t get it, why has it said, all day, that the last post was by qwertyuiop even though my dvar torah has been up?February 19, 2009 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1123764
JayMatt: shkoyach, both neshama’s should have an aliyah.$ and perhaps the answer to your question is, that i’m a special person.$February 19, 2009 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1123765
JayMatt, the CR main page will typically show the oldest approved message as “last poster” – when more than one post is posted simultaneously by the mods.February 19, 2009 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1123766
JayMatt19: awesome vorts!!! their nishamos should have an aliya!!! shkoyach R’ JayMatt19!!!February 20, 2009 1:01 am at 1:01 am #1123767
thank you jaymatt for the dvar torah. may the neshomo’s have an aliya. have a good shabbos.February 20, 2009 1:34 am at 1:34 am #1123768
who is posting tonight?February 20, 2009 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1123769
mod72: if i can google it, i’ll post now, unless you wanna till right before my HANGMAN GAME, for a typed one, which will be at about 9:35.$February 20, 2009 2:35 am at 2:35 am #1123770
i’m a little early, but here it is.$
****D’VAR TORAH FOR THURSDAY****
???? ?? ????
He shall bless your bread(23:25)
The Torah assures us that if the nation obey’s Hashem’s commandments, He shall bless ????, your bread. The gematria of ???? is 98. There are 98 curses listed in the admonitions of ???? ?? ????, as the punishment for those who stray from the Derech of the Torah. But for those who follow the Derech laid out by the Torah, the 98 curses will not come to fruition.(Rabbi David Feinstein, Sefer Kol Dodi) enjoy, and a good erev shabbos to everybody.$February 20, 2009 3:40 am at 3:40 am #1123771
thank you qwertyuiopFebruary 20, 2009 4:00 am at 4:00 am #1123772
mod72: no prob, anytime for an emergency D’var Torah.$February 20, 2009 5:48 am at 5:48 am #1123773
qwertyuiop: very nice one!!!February 20, 2009 7:45 am at 7:45 am #1123775
what happened to yashrus20?????????February 20, 2009 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1123776
It’ E’Shabbos – anyone have a D’Var Torah to share… chofetzchaim where are you…
please start signing up for next weekFebruary 20, 2009 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1123777
hey 72 – i just sent a dvar torah in on the segullah thread. (wrong parsha, but torah is torah, right??)February 20, 2009 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1123778CuriousMember
Here’s one googled from torah.org (sorry)
“… And he shall surely heal him.” [21:19]
The Chofetz Chaim, Rabbi Yisroel Mayer Kagan, uses this short phrase — “and he [who injured his fellow man] shall surely heal him” — to help us develop an entirely new outlook on interpersonal relations, on our coexistence with others in this world.
In the Talmud [Bava Kamma 88a], our Sages say, “From here (we learn that) permission is given to the doctor to heal.” Rashi, Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki, adds there, “and we do not say that ‘G-d made him sick; He will make him well.'” One who caused an injury must pay the doctor as necessary to heal the victim, but Rashi begins by accepting as a given that in reality, G-d was the one who caused the injury, not the human being.
The Chofetz Chaim helps us to look at what Rashi is saying. We see here that all pain or injury that a person suffers comes directly from G-d. This is true even when one person hits another! A person cannot hit someone else unless G-d deems it appropriate for the second person to be hit. Reuven cannot hit Shimon unless, in the opinion of G-d himself, Shimon “has it coming.” Reuven is involved only because, in the words of our Sages, “bad things come by way of a deficient person.” [The Hebrew idiom is perhaps lost in translation, but the intent is clear.]
The Torah is telling us that if someone injures me, I will just be wasting time and energy if I get angry at him. Obviously he is a “deficient person,” and I should consider avoiding him in the future — but what he did is his problem. Rather than taking revenge, I have to take stock of my own actions: why was it appropriate that I be hit?
Forgive me if I insinuate that you, like I, most likely do not live your life this way. I would be amazed to learn that among the tens of thousands of readers, more than one or two managed to avoid anger at a person who wronged him or her. But the evidence is that the Chofetz Chaim did indeed live life this way.
The Chofetz Chaim was called once to testify in court, and the lawyer wanted to explain to the court what an honest man the Rabbi was. He said that once the Chofetz Chaim caught a thief stealing property from his small home. He pursued the thief, shouting “it’s yours! I forgive you!”
The judge looked at the lawyer and asked if he truly believed this amazing tale. “I’m not certain, your Honor,” said the lawyer, “but I do know that they do not tell such stories about you and me.”
Another story is told of a yeshiva student who misbehaved on several occasions, until the Rosh Yeshiva, or Dean, decided that he would have to expel him. On his way out, the student decided to take his last parting shots — so he stood on the front steps, and while waiting for his ride home explained in a loud voice exactly what he thought of the yeshiva and the Dean who stood at its helm.
A few observers noticed that the Rosh Yeshiva himself was standing by a second story window, not trying to stop the student, but rather listening carefully. After the student had left, one of these observers asked why he did not have someone rebuke the student. “Because,” he responded, “I knew that some of what he said might be true. I was listening to see what I might learn.”
Obviously, this is a very high standard of behavior, one which cannot be reached overnight. Few of us have come close to this level. Nonetheless, it certainly doesn’t hurt to set such a high goal!February 21, 2009 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #1123780
Hope everyone enjoyed their Shabbos. We had a real wet one here in Yerushalayim, Please daven that the rain continue.
The following d’var torah is an Avnei Nezer, as quoted in the Tallilei Oros.
?? ???? ??? ????
Why does the Torah refer to the Jewish slave as an ??? ????? Why not ??? ???????
The origin of the word ???? comes from Avraham Avinu (and applies to all of Klal Yisroel) for his ability to stand up against the world. As the midrash says, the whole world was on one side, and Avraham, alone, was on the second side.
This strength is true freedom. A person is not pressured by the foreign ideals and opinions of others. in fact, he ignores them. Something which is ??? he will cling to, even if nobody else is doing so. This is a truly free person
Therefore, when discussing the Jewish slave. A slave who cannot be forced into slavery more than 6 years, because the essence of a Jew is to be a truly free person. Therefore the Torah uses the term ????. Because even as a slave, his essence is still that of a truly free person.February 22, 2009 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1123781
JayMatt19: great vort!!! thanx!!!February 22, 2009 4:15 am at 4:15 am #1123782
shavua tov. gr8 vort, thank you.February 22, 2009 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #1123783
I did not see that anyone signed up for today (nor do I see a new list up), anyway nossond, sorry in advance.
In Parshas Ki Sisa, as well as on a ta’anis, we read the passuk ?????, ??? ???-? ???? ??? ????, ??? ????? ???? ?????, ??? ???? ???? ????
R’ Yonasan Eibushits says that this passuk seems odd. We have Moshe davening that Hashem have rachamim on Klal Yisroel after the chet haegel. Why does he mention that Hashem took us out ??? ???? ???? ????? How does Moshe expect Hashem do show compassion? One does not mention all the good things A gave to B when asking A to forgive B. DOING SO WOULD JUST INFURIATE A MORE!!
So what was Moshe saying when he said ??? ???? ???? ????? He wasn’t talking about all the miracles Hashem provided for us, because obviously mentioning them would not assist us in receiving Hashem’s rachamim. Rather, Moshe was reminding Hashem that we were just on the 49th level of tumah. Moshe was saying to Hashem “What do you expect from them, look, you took them out ??? ???? ???? ????, because there was no other way!, they were 1 step away from the point of no return!. What else do you expect from such people? This was the argument of Moshe Rabbeinu.
There is a tremendous mussar here for us to learn. We need to be able to put aside our ego and our “thoughts of self” when trying to help people. We also need to recognize where they are coming from. May we be zoche to properly assist all those who seek our assistance.February 22, 2009 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #1123784syriansephardiMember
Jaymatt: that was niceFebruary 22, 2009 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1123785
hey what’s this week’s parsha? JayMatt isn’t eved ivri in mishpatim? that makes this week teruma, no? a drop confused here.February 22, 2009 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1123786
The rules allow multiple Dvar Torah’s per day.February 22, 2009 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #1123787
JayMatt19: wow that was graet!!! i’m with mod72-we should call this thread Nightly D’vat Torah-Featuring Rav JayMatt19 of Yerushalayim!!!!!February 22, 2009 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1123788
>>hey what’s this week’s parsha? JayMatt isn’t eved ivri in mishpatim? that makes this week teruma, no? a drop confused here<<
got confused due to shekalim. It has been edited, prior to your comment i might add 😉
It is nice, though, that it is read so carefully.
Joseph, I know multiples are allowed, however, I just try to give when it is my turn, or an unclaimed day.
Will you grace us with some words of wisdom (and of course Torah) on Tuesday?February 22, 2009 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #1123789
hey your dvar torah was edited after my post was submitted. i read that sentence three times before i asked about it 😉
and sure i read everything. so make sure they’re accurate and don’t EVER try reusing one – i’ll catch you in a second…February 22, 2009 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1123790
Aren’t men said to fear commitment?February 22, 2009 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1123791
>>hey your dvar torah was edited after my post was submitted. i read that sentence three times before i asked about it ;)<<
You have no proof of that! All i know is I submitted a correction prior to an post of a mistake being posted
>>and sure i read everything. so make sure they’re accurate and don’t EVER try reusing one – i’ll catch you in a second… <<
Awesome! I challenge myself. Not only to be original on the board, but to be original to myself. I want to use this opportunity to pick up sefarim and find things I did not know about. This one, however, I have used beforeFebruary 22, 2009 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #1123792
>>Aren’t men said to fear commitment?<<
Which halacha or mussar sefer does that appear in? You wouldn’t dare quote a secular source in the CR Beis Medrash!February 22, 2009 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1123793
JayMatt, actually, we might. if the moderator who posted would care to testify.
plus we can watch when your post changes to the next hour and then count how many minutes pass till mine does. that way we would find out exactly when the originals were posted. then ask the moderator what time he came on to change yours.
oh and YOU can do the watchingFebruary 22, 2009 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #1123794
>>JayMatt, actually, we might. if the moderator who posted would care to testify.
plus we can watch when your post changes to the next hour and then count how many minutes pass till mine does. that way we would find out exactly when the originals were posted. then ask the moderator what time he came on to change yours. <<
That depends. Is the time on the bottom the original time, or the edited time. When I was doing hangman, and i made an edit, the time did not resetFebruary 22, 2009 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1123795
i know that. it’s the original time for both. that’s why i said we need the mod to testify as to what time he came on and edited your post. then we could look at you edited time, versus my original posting time. got it?
it’s a little shaky unless the moderators have to punch in and out or something… otherwise the moderator is gonna pasken in your favor – guaranteed.February 22, 2009 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1123796
The edit button is only available for 5 minutes after the post in question was submitted (Send Post).February 22, 2009 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #1123797
joseph, a moderator edited itFebruary 23, 2009 5:33 am at 5:33 am #1123799
*****MONDAY’S D’VAR TORAH*****
Mishenichnas Adar marbim b’sima: From the beginning of Adar we are supposed to increase our simcha. This curious obligation brings a question to mind. To “increase” our simcha implies that previous to Adar we should already be in a state of simcha, only that we should increase it when Adar begins. What is the nature of the pre-Adar simcha, and in what way are we supposed to increase it?
According to the wisdom of Rav Tzadok HaCohen t”zl the answer can be revealed in taking a quiet moment of earnest introspection during which we may actually be able to feel the extraordinary merit of being a Jew and the incredible privilege to be able to offer our personal service to, no less than, the Master of the entire universe. The joy that we could derive from a moment of such exquisite splendor is larger than the ability of any words to convey. This is the type of simcha that we should feel every time that we prepare to fulfill a mitzvah. The holy Ari t”zl attributed all of his extraordinary capabilities in revealing the secrets of the kabbalah to his passionate simcha in fulfillment the mitzvos. Imagine how much this approach could enhance our avodas Hashem!
Simcha shel mitzvah is incumbent upon every Jew during the entire year, but from the beginning of Adar we are advised to increase and intensify our focus on our great and glorious destiny. From the upcoming Rosh Chodesh Adar, prior to fulfilling our daily mitzvos, by spending more quality time reflecting on our great fortune as avdei Hashem we can upgrade the quality of our service of our Creator in addition to elevating our own simcha!
by Rabbi Yitzchok SchwartzFebruary 23, 2009 7:34 am at 7:34 am #1123800
asdfghjkl, i’ll excuse you this time for Googling, but only because it was a good one. Pretty deep.February 23, 2009 7:40 am at 7:40 am #1123801
asdfghjkl: ?????.$February 23, 2009 8:04 am at 8:04 am #1123802
moish: thanx, glad you liked it!!! btw i find nothing wrong with googling a d’var torah!! a good d’var torah, is a good d’var torah!!!
qwertyuiop: ???? ??? (i love writing in hebrew too!!!)February 23, 2009 9:45 am at 9:45 am #1123803YW Moderator-39Member
Please take it easy on the new guy
by Rabbi Mordechai Kamenetzky
After an entire portion filled with commandments regarding man’s obligation toward his fellow man, the Torah focuses on a very spiritual aspect of our existence. Hashem commands His nation to build a Tabernacle in which He would figuratively dwell. Thus the Torah begins this week’s portion with a mainstay of Jewish life — the appeal.
The Torah instructs the Jewish nation to contribute gold, silver, and an array of other materials to the great cause of erecting and furnishing a Mishkan (Tabernacle). However the appeal is worded very strangely. Hashem does not ask the people to give; he asks them to take. Exodus 25:2: “Speak to the children of Israel and let them take a portion for me.” The question is obvious. Why does the Torah tell the people to take a portion when in essence they are giving a portion? What is the message behind the semantic anomaly?
Max and Irving went fishing on an overcast afternoon. About two hours into their expedition a fierce storm developed. Their small rowboat tossed and tossed and finally flipped over into the middle of the lake. Max, a strong swimmer, called to save Irving, but to no avail. Irving did not respond to any plea and unfortunately drowned. Max swam to shore to break the terrible news to Irving’s poor wife.
“What happened?” she screamed. “Tell me the whole story!”
Max recounted the entire episode in full detail.
“But what did you do to try to save my Irving?” she shrieked. Max explained once again. “I kept screaming to your husband, ‘Irving, give me your hand — give me your hand — Give me your hand! But Irving just gave me a blank stare and drifted away.”
“You fool!” shouted the widow. “You said the wrong thing. You should have said, ‘take my hand.’ Irving never gave anything to anybody!”.
We often make the same mistake that Irving made. When we hear the word “give” we recoil. In its first solicitation, the Torah is teaching us a lesson. When you give with true heart, you are not giving anything away. You are taking a share for yourself. Materialistic pleasures in which many people indulge are eventually digested and forgotten. The new cars become old ones, the glorious homes fall to disrepair, and the newest gizmos become outdated. The only items that remain are those that we give. They remain in a storehouse of merits and eventually will repay us and our descendants. The Montefiores and the Rothschilds are not forever cherished for opulence and indulgence. They are remembered for their great benevolence and charity. They not only gave for eternity. They received for eternity as wellFebruary 23, 2009 9:47 am at 9:47 am #1123804
did you even read it yet?
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