Forum Replies Created
December 12, 2012 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm in reply to: Throwing bleach at R' Nuchem Rosenberg to achieve justice? #912407
The Little I Know:
I completely agree. Whether you agree or disagree with his methods, there is never an excuse to throw bleach at people. The response to this even must be unequivocal, this is wrong under all circumstances.
Although, I have to say I if somebody accused my father of doing such things, I might do things I’d later regret.
My point was in response to Ben Levi, that abuse is some new-fangled excuse for OTD. Abuse is wrong on every level, but I find it insane that frum people seem so dismissive about it. You’d think they would care, even if just to prevent kids from going OTD.December 12, 2012 7:33 am at 7:33 am in reply to: Throwing bleach at R' Nuchem Rosenberg to achieve justice? #912388
Ben Levi, yours is perhaps the most misinformed post in all of the CR. I don’t quite have time to detail all the wrongness here, but let me make 3 points now:
- Our schools sending our frum children OTD goes back way further than 15 years. I know for a fact this has been going on for at a minimum 30 years.
- Is it your contention that we should just assume 10% of children born to frum families will go OTD? And we (parents and educators especially) should sit back and do nothing about it? I’d love to see a torah source for that.
- The children that do go OTD do so because of tremendous pain. Theirs is not a happy life, at least for the transitional period. Don’t you care a bit about their pain? About your own childrens pain?
The reason experts are concerned about abuse is because child abuse causes children to go OTD. It is that simple. Even if you disapprove of changing the chinuch system, there is still no excuse for tolerating abuse.
When did this conversation become about drugs and alcohol? Neither I nor PuhLease do either (I can’t speak for Jakbre) so it is a topic for another discussion.
In any case, most of the druggies and alcoholics I know are still frum. I’m sure their parents are very proud.
I’m curious what your story is. Why did you decide to become non-religious?
As silly as it may seem, I felt the same way the first time I (as a guy) put on blue jeans as you did wearing pants.
While science and history do not disprove anything, it does cast serious doubt on many parts of the Torah. Perhaps this is due to the background that I came from, where the Torah is considered the absolute with no room for any other considerations.
A great example of that attitude is the response from my brother when I asked him how he might reconcile any scientific evidence disproving the mabul. His response was “It’s irrelevant to me what science says. If the Torah says it’s true, then it’s true.” (Note I’m not trying to say the Mabul never happened, just what his response was to the possibility.)
I’m not a scientist, nor am I any kind of talmuch chacham. However, I do not believe that it is possible to reconcile science with the Torah in many cases.
While this wasn’t a major factor of why I’m no longer religious, it did play a role in why I was willing to walk away from a religion that held nothing but memories of pain and guilt for me.
Following G-d’s orders, as described in the Torah, is mandatory even it is not “pleasurable”. It is mandatory even if it is “painful”.
Ice cold and callous.
You go frum and don’t give a dang that you are killing your parents?
Why did you reject Judiasm
Because Judaism was the source of much pain in my life. I guess for some (or many?) people learning, davening, shabbos, kosher, etc. is a source of pleasure, but for me, it wasn’t.
In addition, I have been learning more about history and science, and the more I learned the less plausible religion seemed. I finally left when I stopped believing.
why did you embrace whatever you have embraced
I didn’t embrace anything in its place.
Regarding your point about Pascal’s Wager. I am not a betting man. I will live my life being true to myself, and take my chances.
Teachers who teach English literature and people who quote or reference goyish words really a part of the OTD problem
No, the exact opposite. People who truly believe that statement are part of the OTD problem.
then you find fault with my good advice
I didn’t find fault with any of your advice, rather I pointed out that this thread was not about trying to help those who are “OTD”. I opened myself up to questions, not to being “helped”. I can see PuhLease feels the same way.
it is certainly not your place to determine whether or not one is going to hell
According to some here, it is unequivocal. If you aren’t “frum” (as determined by them, of course) you will burn in hell. And that’s final. The circumstances simply don’t matter.
What advice would you give to a non-religious jew considering becoming religious, if his/her parents are staunchly anti-religious? Would you worry about “killing” parents then?
By your response to those who are trying to help
Trying to help whom? I joined this conversation because reallynow asked for input. I’m not here to get “helped”. I’m not angry, nor am I rejecting any advice, simply having a conversation.
Staying religious based on plain Emunah Pshuta without any proofs that Judiasm is authentic, IS DEFINITELY KEFIRA
I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. Kudos to you for making the effort to prove it to yourself and not just going with the flow.
I am also interested in hearing your beliefs
Beliefs about what specifically?
I’d also like to add my comments to some of the previous posts here.
That being said, what everyone seems to be missing is who is truly the most responsible for the person going off the derech. And that, of course, is the person himself who went OTD.
You know nothing of the pain suffered by any of the individuals in question, or you would not be so quick to judge.
In addition, that statement helps nobody. Blaming the victim will not help you prevent others from leaving religion. The purpose here isn’t to blame the schools or the parents, it’s to understand what’s going wrong and to fix it.
He will face consequences down here
What consequences are there down here?
and, most importantly, he will face the music upstairs
Do I need to point out that this won’t scare anybody who is no longer religious?
I’m not sure if you realize that you do not sound like you’re engaging in a dialogue, rather, it comes across as preaching. All the things you list as being “the best” are all things that I grew up with, and gave up. Clearly, we disagree on what the best things in life are.
I’m sorry to hear how you were treated.
that you knowingly are shortening your loving grieving parents’ lives
You can only live your life for somebody else for so long. At some point, you need to be true to yourself. And I’d hope that as a parent, that’s what you want for you child.
But let’s be honest – when somebody becomes frum, we don’t worry too much about whether their parents are grieving.
I too have made the decision to no longer be religious.
I’ll put myself out there and open myself up to questions. I may not answer all of them, though.