Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
To add an example to what I posted above:
There is a svarah brought in halacha sfarim, (I don’t remember where, its possible it’s in igros moshe, but I think earlier than that as well) that although the halacha is that if you didn’t have kavanah for the first line of Shema, you must repeat it, nowadays you should NOT not repeat it, because nowadays we anyway do not have proper kavanah, so its better to not repeat it.
Meaning, nowadays the best thing to do is not to go back, because we anyway don’t have kavanah. At the same time. that is not the ideal; the ideal would be to be able to have kavanah, we are just not holding there.
Similarly, nowadays Chabad isn’t holding by sleeping in the sukkah, therefore the best thing nowadays for them is to sleep outside the sukkah (as it causes pain), that being said, the ideal was and still is to be at the level where you can and must sleep in the sukkah.
I know the examples aren’t exactly the same, mainly that in the first scenario you are anyway in a B’diavad, but you get the point.
DY (I refer to you because I it seems to me you are logic driven and not emotion driven, וד”ל):
As you so clearly wrote recently (and, like ujm pointed out, I wrote in my “summary”), your Tainah agaisnt MS is that the svarah is illogical, “backwards”. Why is it backwards? You explained twice:
“It’s backwards because it takes a mizvah and makes it k’ilu it’s chas v’shalom an aveirah (or at least a shortcoming that one isn’t “mitztaer”)”
“The notion that ideally one should be on a level to be so sensitive to the kedushah of the sukkah that he is mitztaer and therefore is pattur, is backwards.”
This seems to be one point (with two sides): The fact that MS’s svarah implies that it is a negative thing to sleep in the sukkah, and a positive thing to be on the level to not to sleep in the sukkah, is backwards – because the ideal thing is to do the mitzvah and sleep in the sukkah. If there is a p’tur, fine (like lighting indoors and eating outside on Shmini Atzeres), but it is “backwards to make the p’tur seem like a positive thing.[I don’t really want to argue on behalf of MS, I don’t know what he holds, but I’ll do so anyway because I find this conversation entertaining and enlightening. So, read the following with the caveat that I don’t know if MS woud actually agree to any of this.]
It does not seem to me at all that it is made out to be a positive thing. From reading this shakla v’tarya, it seems to me that MS would say that the ideal would be to be so holy that their sleep in fine in the sukkah. (Like in the quote MS quoted before, which, being that you are trying to have a logical conversation with him, I am sure you actually read. After all, you can’t debate someone if you refuse to read their claims!) Just that since we are in Golus, our sleep is on a lower level, and therefore doing so in the sukkah woukd cause pain. To re-iterate, not that doing so in the sukkah is improper – just that it causes pain. The ideal (at least to me – MS, you are the one that actually knows the party line on this, so correct me if I’m wrong) that MS would hold, appears to be being on a level where you 1) feel the spirituality of the sukkah, and 2) are at the level where you still feel comfortable sleeping there. When will we reach this ideal? Knowing MS, he is bound to say “when Moshiach comes” :).
DY, this svarah seems very spiritual, and for regular people it seems like a svarah which you would never find in a gemarah or shulchan aruch etc, which is true. We are used to svaros grounded in cold, dry halacha, not in the spiritual realms of “Makkif of Binah”, whatever that is. However, Chassidim evidently do employ svaros like this.
To MS: Can you tell me if what I said above is correct? I was making a lot of assumptions on what you would hold. Also, can you explain the Chassidic practice to employ lofty and spiritual svaros such as this? Is there a precedent in halacha?
This argument is so repetitive, it’s painful. I don’t really read the CR too often, but this thread got me interested, as I’ve always wondered about the Minhag to sleep outside the sukkah (and in fact, this thread did inform me on many things that I did not know too much about).
However, that was merely in the beginning; now, the rhetoric has descended to being reposts back and forth between MS and the rest, repeating the same Tainos<em/> to each other, and each side ignoring the other. (TBH, I particularly feel bad for MS, he clearly puts effort into his well-crafted and lengthy responses, and is now repeating the same thing time and time again.) Seems like it will be (to use the lashon of the gemorah) “chozeres chalilah” until they actually argue on what each other are saying, instead of repeating the same points again and again.
I’ll be misakem (summarize) the argument as I see it:
DY and the others claim the Chabad Minhag of sleeping outside the sukkah is against Shulchan Aruch, which states you must sleep inside the sukkah unless it is cold outside (or other exemptions, some of which are stated by other poskim, or given privately to people with extenuating circumstances).
MS agrees, (he also says it is against the SIMPLE understanding of the Shulchan Aruch and that the logic to do so seems weak), but being that this was the minhag of his rebbeim he follows it, notwithstanding the weak svarah to do so. He points to the Minhag of lighting indoors and eating outside the sukkah in shmini atzeres as examples of times when we go against the simple understanding of the Shulchan Aruch with weak svaros.
MS claims that if anything, the Chabad minhag is better as the Shulchan Aruch does lay credence to the idea of sleeping outside the sukkah, while it expressly states you must light indoors.
That is the first point I feel is being ignored: DaasYochid (and the others), what do you say to that? Do you agree that the Chabad minhag is *less* against the Shulchan Aruch?
The others respond to MS that the svarah of Chabad is weaker than the the svarah of those that light inside/eat outside, to which MS doesn’t agree. That is a subjective argument, with no answer. But it seems like DY and the others don’t understand the svarah at all, which MS has not explained at all. For my own question on MS – did the Tzaddikim of all the generations not sleep in the sukkah? And if they did, were they not holding on the level to feel “Makifin of Binah”? And if it is because they were so holy that them sleeping was “Makifin of Binah” was not a disgrace, do you concede that your Rebbe was less holy?
All in all, I seem to side with MS. All these minhagim go against Shulchan Aruch, and without our Tzaddikim, we would not be able to follow any of them. Making cheshbonos about what which svaros make less sense or more sense is illogical, they all don’t make sense, and our Tzaddikim felt it correct to so no matter what. The only question is, is how much does it go against the Shulchan Aruch, and for that, Chabad has the upper hand (however, still, the other minhagim should be followed, too).