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  • in reply to: Feminism #1162572
    philosopher
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    hereorthere, Some minhagim that are adopted by a large part of klal Yisroel are not shaalos to be asked. Taking an example of the afikomin as I’ve mentioned yesterday, let me expound on this. My husband will not ask a shaalah if he is doing the right thing here because this is how his father, gandfather, uncles, cousins, his Rebbe and his fellow Chassidim do it. This is a minhag.

    Now minhagim are what large segments of frum Jews adopted depending where they live. This is transfered from from father to son and within a particular community. There are no shaalos to ask here.

    Then there is Daas Yehadus, what is the accepted practice in klal Yisroel in each generation. My humble opinion is that this becomes minhagim.

    Now some people on this thread judged minhagim and das Yehadus not to be within the parameters of halacha. That is not for us to decide. Only the Rabbonim can do that.

    Halachic shaalos come up when one doesn’t know what the din or the minhug is. These shaalos can be like what do I do if I used a milchig fork for a hot fleishig dish or asking one’s Rov if they need to or what they should and how they should check for worms in fish.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162571
    philosopher
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    missme me I meant walked on the treadmill …

    in reply to: Feminism #1162570
    philosopher
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    I just powerwalked and met two Chassidishe women in turbans and SAS shoes powerwalking. Now these women who are bringing up large erliche families are being judged here, because they like me could’ve jumped on the treadmill and then sat outside in the backyard where nobody sees us. Instead we went for a powerwalk.

    So that’s it? If some people in klal Yisroel does something that is in the eyes of others assur the other has a right to judge them?

    missme, you wrote “well, if the Rabbonim insisted on them following things K’Halacha, there might be a revolution by those people. They might go completely off the derech. So the Rabbonim don’t crack down even on things that are really kneged halacha, so that they can convince these people to at least keep some of the important stuff. “

    What you are essentially saying is that Rabbonim are not assuring things that should be assured because the people will rebel. I don’t understand how any person can say Rabbonim are not acting in a certain way where they don’t speak out against people doing the wrong thing because of the tzibbor’s reaction. Goodness!

    Now when I explained to you that the Rabbonim are not afraid of a “revolution” because they have assured a lot of things for our generation, you still attack me as you wrote ” clearheaded… what’s your point in saying that numerous ossurim Rabbonim have made in our current times, that our parents were never restricted of?? are you chas vshalom thinking the Rabbonim Shlita (or zt”l) made things up??? c’v!! “

    I have NOT EVEN REMOTELY implied that Rabbonim make this up! I have as explained above said that Rabbonim assur a lot of things these days and they are not afraid of a revolution. Is that what you think of our holy nation that we will rebel if we are told to do something?

    Furthermore you are bashing me, a woman who sacrificed a lot to do right thing and GO AGAINST MY NATURE TO STAY HOME AND BE A STAY AT HOME MOM FOR MY BABY AND BE HOME WHEN MY KIDS COME HOME. I don’t understand how anyone could bash someone saying that being home is boring and despite that stays home because she feels its right. Do you thing I created my inborn nature, or do you think Hashem gave it to me?

    I don’t undersatnd how one can bash someones stating the facts of life (me), klal Yisroel, Rabbonim, or debate reality because it doesn’t fit their beliefs. I don’t think that’s called debating honestly.

    If you want to see how I debate in an honest fashion, go look in the Worms in Fish thread and see how after one post I was debating something that I wasn’t sure what halacha as it pertains to me (i.e. what my Rov holds- Rabbonim have different opinions on this issue)is. I called up my Rov and got my facts straight. And then when I made an opinion regarding this halacha and someone condradicted me and also suggested I ask my Rov why he poskened as he did. Despite feeling uncomfortable to bother him, but wanting to know the facts I called up my Rov again. Sure enough that other person was right and I conceded to that other poster by saying he’s right. Check it out. you can see exactly what I’ve written in the Worms in Fish thread.

    That’s called debating in an honest fashion. You get your facts right and don’t attack the other person for having a diiferent shitta than you.

    I wanted to finish off with air out, not air when I go to the mall. In any case, yes I will be judged for going to the mall by Hakodesh Burach Hu himself who sees and knows what a sacrifice it is for me be a stay at home mom.

    If you want to make sure that every aspect of your life is observed according to “explicit” posukim and meforshim then go ahead. But you cannot critisize me for disagreeing with you.

    EDITED

    in reply to: Feminism #1162563
    philosopher
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    missme, I for one would not make a revolution nor go off the derech. There are numerous ossurim Rabbonim have made in our current times that our parents were never restricted of.

    In fact a lot of people are complaining that are becoming at risk kids because they are too restricted.

    I think you are being very judgemental on a large part of the frum women who are modest, refined and live halachically proper lives.

    Take me for instance. I gave up a career to be a stay at home mom (granted today I’ve been playing a hookey and ran to the computor whenever I got a chance) but being a stay at home mom is very boring for me. Are you going to judge me because I sometimes go to the mall to air ?

    in reply to: Feminism #1162561
    philosopher
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    hereorthere you wrote” You are not doing anything “different” with it, then how it was meant to be used.”

    Who said that I did? I said that it is applied differently today, not that it is applied differently than how it’s meant to be applied.

    You said “Perhaps you could say, that details of which aspect of the Halacha are in effect, have changed, but nothing in the Halacha has changed, since it includes all its details. “

    Fine, you could say that but that still doesn’t change the fact that halacha is not lived in the same way as generations ago simply because the lifestyles were different and they couldn’t be applied in the same way.

    Notice that I don’t say halacha changes to our lifestyle I say halacha is lived differently.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162559
    philosopher
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    About women going out proves my point again. In the Rambam’s times women probably went out very scarcely, while today women go out not only more, but any time they feel like it, to take a walk, go shopping etc. Does anybody have a right to say or imply that frum women are violating halacha?

    This proves my point, that while halacha still applies – the way it’s applied today is not the same as it was applied generations ago, simply because our lifestyles have changed.

    That is vastly different from the conservative or reform people who pick and choose halacha to fit their agenda.

    Frum, God fearing Jews, observe halacha to the letter. However the way halacha is applied is different in each generation because the way of life in each generation is different.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162557
    philosopher
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    “Women have to understand that the natural way is for men to rule over them. Women are not meant to be leaders or out in public more than necesary at all – see the Rambam on that. “

    Yes sir. We’ll make sure to only go to the market when necessary, once or twice a month.

    Otherwise we women are absolutely trampling on halacha – not.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162556
    philosopher
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    anon for this, thanks, I just saw your post. I didn’t realize it before. I will check it out.

    I just knew that there is more to this posuk!

    in reply to: Feminism #1162552
    philosopher
    Member

    hereorthere, our minhag is not to be makpid what time we eat the afikomin, although I’m so tired my chatzos, I definitely would like my husband to be makpid on eating the afikomin before chatzos, but he is still in middle of discussing yetzias Mitzrayim by chatzos, as per his minhug.

    Your saying “This change was already IN the origional Halacha, because the Halacha states that a man may have ONLY as many wives as he can take care of to their satisfaction (not an exact quote but the basic halacha as I understand it).” I’m not saying that the change cannot already be in halacha. Maybe if halacha is learnt correctly there can be found all the changes of how we live halacha in the original halacha. But the metzias is that this halacha is lived differently today.

    Kasha you write”Incorrect. It is possible the majority practices a certain halacha incorrectly”

    Nu go ahead. Take any of my examples and explain how you live them differently, according to your ideal of how halacha is supposed to be practiced. Buy a slave, take two wives, force your wife to wash your feet, whatever. The main thing is that you are the one that is a faithful servant of Hashem.

    EDITED

    in reply to: Feminism #1162545
    philosopher
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    And just to reinforce what I’ve written in my previous post, I have NOT poskened any halachas here. I am not a rabbah nor do I want to be one nor do I think a rabbah is a valid Rabbi.

    What I have done is again, bring examples of how halacha is practiced nowadays to show that minhagim change the way halacha is applied. This is the metzias. If you feel I am not correct, then don’t bash me. Bring forth one of my examples, whether it’s washing a man’s feet, the issue of slaves, multiple and whatever else I have forgotten. Then based on an example that I’ve made a mistake and klal Yisroel is not practicing it the way I’ve put it down, let me know about it.

    I’m not implying that we can chas vesholom change halacha or minhugim. Neither did I say that just about anyone can decide what halacha is. However whichever way we look at it, minhugim and Das Yehudi change the way we live as practicing Yidden. The reality is that in the midbar the way the Yidden lived was completely different from today. The halachas stayed the same throughout the generations, however the way we live it HAS cahnged.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162542
    philosopher
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    I have NOT argued against our meforshim. Give me one instance where I did. I have merely stated WHY either a Rov will not accept someone’s excuse for divorcing his wife because she doesn’t wash his feet, I have explained why even though according to the Torah having more than one wife is allowed frum Jews have adopted a more stringent practice, and whatever other example I’ve used throughout this thread is what IS the practive of klal Yisroel in these times whether you like it or not. Just because my argument clashes wiyh YOUR position doesn’t mean

    a. that my position in this case is not correct and

    b. that even more importantly, chas vesholom I am arguing against the meforshim. It is incorrect and unfair to say that I did. I never said the meforshim are wrong or even that I don’t agree with their opinions. I HAVE SAID that the practical application of halacha has changed throughout the ages and if you do not agree then you ARE arguing against the metzius.

    In fact the only person I have argued against is you, not chas vesholom our holy Rabbis. It is because you think that your position IS the mefarshim’s that you THINK I’ve argued against them. However I do not agree that YOUR stand IS the meforshim’s stand. And because of HOW KLAL YISROEL PRACTICES HALACHA your stand CANNOT BE CORRECT. AS I HAVE BROUGHT DOWN INSTANCES THAT ARE HALACHA THE WAY THE MAJORITY OF KLAL YISROEL PRACTICES. If I am wrong in any instance of how halacha is practiced today that I’ve bought down throughout this thread, whether it is about the slaves or anything wlse, please let me know.

    I do need to make one correction when stating that there are people who have a minhug to eat the afikomin after chatzus. I meant to write that there are people who are not makpid to eat a afikomin before chatzos even though it clashes with halacha. Now whether you like it or not, a large number of Chassidim including my husband’s rebbe are not makpid to eat the afikomin before chatzos. They expound on the Haggadah untill way after chatzos and only then eat the afikomin.

    Now last but not least. Ruling over one’s wife can mean in minhagim as the wife adopts the husbands minhagim after marriage. It does not explictly say in the Torah that the husband rules over his wife in every aspect.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162536
    philosopher
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    Kasha thanks for your compliment and thank you for being accomodating and repeating your sources. The reason I asked you for the posuk and the meforshim is because you have not retreated in the face of very logical arguments and therefore I thought I missed something regarding your sources.

    1. as I’ve mentioned before, there is no explicit posuk in the Torah stating that a man rules over his wife

    2. we have chewed through a lot of the meforshim, whether it was the Rambam, Torah Temima and other meforshim where Wolf and I, who are are the same page regarding the subject of feminism, presented not only logical arguments but the reality as well.

    For example; while the Rambam said that a man can divorce a woman if she doesn’ wash his feet, I have stressed that in these times no Rabbi would agree that a man should divorce his wife because of that reason. There are numerous such instances that halacha, while unchanging, is clearly applied differently than years ago.

    I will bring a different example as well. According to halacha a man is allowed to have more than one wife. While cherem d’Rabbeinu Gershum was adopted it there never was an outright halacha ossuring a man from having multiple wives. In fact in Teiman, until very recently men had more than one wife. Why did that change? More specificly why did the Taimany adopt the practice of only marrying one wife if the cherem d’Rabbeini Gershem was never adopted as their minhag? Simply put, halacha does not change, but minhag hamokom changes the way we apply halacha. The accepted APPLICATION of halacha can change(not halacha itself, but the application of it)to a stricter or more lenient practice – that’s called minhugim. Sorry, but minhugim do exist and they can sometimes clearly clash with halacha. An example of such a case would be where some families eat a kasieos afikomin after chatzos which is clearly against halacha.

    Kasha, while in theory your arguments are strong, it is not the reality.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162517
    philosopher
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    Kasha, you wrote “clearheaded: I quoted verbatim an explicit Mishna, without offering an interpretation. The interpretation was yours, not mine.” So what what is your point by bringing this Mishna? If your point was to prove that women are not eaual because they are under someone’s reshus, I proved you wrong.

    In addition, you keep on stating that it is an explicit posuk in the Torah that a wife is ruled by her husband. It is not.

    Maybe the meforshim expound on a certain posuk in the Torah. Which meforshim are you talking about?

    in reply to: Feminism #1162489
    philosopher
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    Wolf, I like your point that a king doesn’t support his subjects, it’s the other way around. That certainly shows that that a husband has different responsibilities than a king and therefore the analogy of a husband ruling over a wife as a king over his subjects doesn’t apply.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162487
    philosopher
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    Kasha, I’m getting tired of arguing with you so even though I might not answer your predicted confutation, I have not conceded deafeat.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162486
    philosopher
    Member

    Kasha what excactly do you want to prove when you bring from “Kesuvos 48a-48b (Mishna) – A girl is always in her father’s “Reshus”, until she enters her husband’s “Reshus” for Nisu’in”, if it’s not that a woman is an object to be ruled over?

    Now what happens when she decides not to marry? Furthermore, what happens if she doesn’t have a father who takes care of her i.e. abandoned her or he died? And what happens if she doesn’t have any brothers either to be under their reshus?

    The mishna, in my humble opinion is clearly talking about who has an obligation to take care of the woman, but not that she is under a reshus as an object.

    The orange/ apple analogy that you bring forth proves my point – not yours. Apples and oranges are euqal in the terms of being classified as fruits, however they are different fruits.

    The husband should be TREATED as a king and the wife as a queen simply because that’s simply what they are. As to who rules over whom, as I continue to mention that is mekom (in this case not only place, but time as well) minhag. Therefore if there would be a king in England he would rule over his queen equaly as his queen rules over him. In other words, they are both figureheads and on equal footing.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162473
    philosopher
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    kasha, you have a very simplistic and unhealthy view of the term that a woman is merely a chefetz.

    1. a chefetz cannot refuse not to be bought. A woman may choose not to marry at all. Unlike a man, a woman has no chiuv to get married.

    2. Were a woman an object to be aquired then she would not be able to refuse a person who wants to aquire her, like a slave could not refuse to who would buy him, or a chefetz demanding who it’s owner should be.

    That is regarding whether a woman is an object.

    There is a completely different factor of whether women are equal to men. Now of course those who believe that women are mere objects will surely not think that women are equal to men. However since women are NOT objects we can discuss equality. As I have already pointed out on a previous post, women are different but equal to men. How that is carried out in terms of how a husband treats a wife is depended on the makom.

    Now halacha doesn’t change, however lets take an example of a slave. You have all the halachas in the Torah regarding a slave. Were a person to own a slave in modern times, even if he acts within the parameters of halacha, he will be considred a cruel person by everyone, including the Rabbis.

    Therefore, while halacha doesn’t change minhag hamokom does and it would be cruel to treat a wife as women would be treated in Chazal’s or Rambam’s times.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162472
    philosopher
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    Wolf, Rabbis over the centuries have debated the paradoxes of Chazal’s words. The Torah is full of secrets that still need to be discovered.

    There are answers to these questions and if one explores the subjects thoroughly one can find the answers. Let’s take for example the question of Iyov. Did he exist or didn’t he? Here’s my opinion on Chazal’s seemingly condradiction. As far as I know, Iyov wasn’t Jewish, but he was a tzaddik so I’m not sure if the term lhavdil should be used in this case but I will use it just in case it should. L’havdil eilef alfei alofim Yoshke, is considered the “messiah” in the Christain religion. Did Yoshke exist? Definitely. But he was a mere mortal and not the “messiah” as the Christian’s claim. Therefore, he existed but he did not exist as the being the Christian’s claim he was.

    This explains Chazal’s contradiction. Iyov existed. He probably did suffer tremendously. But in other ascriptions that were attributed to him, he did not exist.

    There are answers to our questions. However, there is a fine line that one must watch not to cross and that is the boundry of knowing that as humans it is simply impossible to know all the answers. We can try to find answers but there are things that we will never know the answer to because we are mere mortals.

    In Judasim it is healthy to ask and think, there’s no need to act like robots, on the other hand we must realize our limitations.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162464
    philosopher
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    cherrybim, the sun can revolve around the planet Earth as well as the earth revolving around the sun as in space it’s all relative. The heavenly bodies are revolving around each other. Some scientists talk about the subject matter of relativity.

    In any case, is science conclusive as of today? Do scientists know everything there is to learn about the world? Definitely not! Experimenting and exploration is going on full force by tens of thousands of scientists in hundreds of feilds. We have not arrived at the sum total of all truths, which will iy’H be when Moshiach comes and our eyes will behold the truth.

    Until then what we know today can become outdated because of new data tommorow. Now Moshiach should be here by then,but our generation who believes in science that we know today to be facts will be definitely be proven otherwise in 150 years hence and we will look like fools just as we look at the people who believed those “facts” of 150 years ago to be true.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162458
    philosopher
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    Throughout our generations there were people who thought of themselves as more knowledgeable than our great Rabbis of the past because of the science current to their times and therefore discredited our Rabbis sources of knowledge as divine. What happened then is Chazal’s halacha became something which they chose not to practice either. For if one believes that Chazal’s or any of our great sages sources are not divine, whatever they held were merely whatever was then the accepted truth, then why follow their halacha c”v?

    Whoever believes only the written Torah is divine could end up c”v like the Karaite sect who did not believe that the oral Torah was written with divine inspiration.

    Chazal were maybe not malochim in a literal sense, however they were definitely on a higher spiritual level than we can comprehend.

    Wolf, you wrote” I suppose this is a seperate discussion of whether or not everything Chazal said is from a divine source or if they were effected by their contemporary culture or science.” With all due respect, you are not the one to determine IF something that Chazal said was from a divine source or effected by their contemporary culture.

    We cannot dispute Chazal, only those great Rabbis that are on their level could. What we can do is try to clarify their positions, which I feel I have done in my previous post.

    Wolf, you asked me for sources and as I have explained in my previous post, as a woman I would not know where to find sources to support my opinion. If I would see all the passages from Chazal regarding this issue I feel I could base my opinion on their wording alone.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162409
    philosopher
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    Wolf, would you make the same argument about Moshe Rabbeinu being human and infallible as you do about Chazal?

    Chazal were molachim, they were not mere mortals and whatever they taught was from a divine source.

    While I generally agree with you wolf, I take exception this time with your line regarding our great Rabbis because thinking that their words do not apply to us has led numerous people down a slippery slope.

    Now whatever Chazal have said about woman can apply. That does not make women inferior in intellect. Chazal just show that womens’ thinking is inferior in the situations that they spoke about. However that doesn’t mean womens intellect is inferior in all situations. In fact in other situations their intelligence might be superior. Women and men think differently, their thought patterns are different and women learning to be rabbas are not learning like men are learning in serious yeshivas.

    That does not mean women have overall lower intelligence. Not at all. Women have a binah yesierah. It is a DIFFERENT KIND OF INTELLIGENCE THEN MEN. It’s as simple as that. Women learn differently and think differently, but we are not less intelligent.

    Now were I a man who learns Torah, I would be able to bring numerous sources on the intelligence of women. And I am also certain I would find sources which state that womens’ intelligence is greater in certain situations then men.

    I’m repeating what I said before, no gender as a whole is better or smarter than the other, just different, each with their maalos and chasronos.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162399
    philosopher
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    Wolf,why would you want to prove chazal wrong, hypothetically?

    I think it’s important to stick to the facts.

    Anyway, I don’t think it’s derech eretz to try to prove chazal wrong even if it’s just in theory.

    in reply to: Any recommended Jewish novels? #1125541
    philosopher
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    I love Meyer Bendet’s books, but I have not seen them around for quite a while.

    He wrote True Identity and the sequel Double Identity

    The Orphan – two books

    Our Man in Russia

    The Accused – two books- this is definitely the BEST novel I have ever read!

    There’s another great book that he wrote but I forgot the title

    He is definitely the best frum author in my opinion.

    Marcus Lehman’s books are also good.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162303
    philosopher
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    anon, a father babysitting one’s own children falls in the category of helping ones wife or kids, and is considered a chesed not a profession.

    Hashem gave specific and different characteristics for each gender for them to fulfill their respective roles. Just because this instinctive understanding has become blurred in this immoral, liberal, mixed up society does not change the directive in nature that Hashem created.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162289
    philosopher
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    Wolf please don’t take offense, but I do think babysitting as a profession belongs to a woman.

    Just-a-guy, are you talking about babysitting as a father babysits his kids or babysitting as a profession? Those are two seperate things.

    I do think a babysitting profession belongs to a woman. There are unbecoming manly jobs for men too and a man does not need to act in a woman’s role for parnossah. That’s doubly unbecoming.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162273
    philosopher
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    Just-a-guy , what in the world does food stamps have in correlation with babysitting?

    in reply to: Feminism #1162270
    philosopher
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    Sorry, I meant to write Rabbis , firefighters, soldiers,etc. are manly jobs and women occupying such roles are not doing Hashem’s will for the gender He created them for.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162267
    philosopher
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    There is a difference between equality which is the social norm today in democtratic societies and then there is feminism which is a totaly seperate premise.

    Equality means having equal rights but different roles, this belief is not neged haTorah and this is in fact what is practiced by the majority of frum Yidden today.

    Then there is feminism which stands for women being able to perform men’s jobs and having no problems vice versa the men.

    Rabbis, firefighters, soldiers, all these occupations are man’s and a woman’s occupation and a woman in such a role is not doing Hashem’s will for what He created her. It is unbecoming for a woman to work in a manly role as much as it is for a man to have a job as a babysitter.

    When the whole rabbah thing came out, frum people were having a hard time figuring out why there’s something wrong with the concept. They knew inherentely that there’s something wrong but they couldn’t articulate why. And that’s because you can’t find sources in the Torah against such concepts. Rather those who are living the life of true avodas Hashem and are not influenced by the surrounding culture know instictively that men and women have an obligation to fulfill their respective roles in life.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162236
    philosopher
    Member

    It is indeed very telling that those who have disputed what I have written in my previous post, have skirted the issue regarding being assertive when the husband is veering from the right path or making bad decisions. I know what I’m talking about. I have seen cases where the woman has blindly followed the husband and it led to disaster and I have seen the fakerte instances too, where the wife stood up for what’s right and that led the husband too comply with doing the right thing (of course that must be done in the right way).

    I cannot bring sources regarding the topic of submissivness as I am a woman who doesn’t delve in actual study of Torah (I’m not a feminist). However, I would venture to say that even while Rav Miller spoke about women being subverssive, where he to be asked whether a woman still is mchiuv to wash her husban’d feet, when she doesn’t wnat to, I highly doubt he would say that she must do that.

    There is such a concept of the “fifte shilchun aruch” i.e. common sense. For example, if a woman has born a girl and boy and she doesn’t want to have more children because she is not michiav to do so al pi halacha and her husband too has fulfilled the mitzvah of having children. Will any Yeshivish/Chassidish Rov agree with her? Why does she need to seek a heter anyway if al pi halacha she is in the right? That’s where the fifte shichun aruch comes in. Maybe we can even call this daas Yehudi.

    The same is with the issue of women being submissive. If today a man insists that his wife wash her feet and she doesn’t want to, I highly doubt where he to ask a Rov what to do with his insubordinated wife, the Rov would tell him to divorce her. It is much more likely the Rov will tell the husband to cut out the shtuss.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162226
    philosopher
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    missme, your decision on what is the natural order of the world and nuch dertzi your deciding what the Torah’s way is, does not necassarily reflect the true Torah way. For if you were right, then Avrohom would have to listen to Sura and not the other way around and Oin ben Peylos’s wife would not be hailed as a courages woman who saved her husband, but rather that her husband did not do the right thing by listening to her.

    Rochel Imeinu too was not submissive to her future husband when she did not honor their predetermined codes and gave them over to her sister. That’s not submissive.

    There are indeed numerous intances in the Torah and Jewish history where women were assertive and were not submissive to their husband’s wishes. If women were only submissive in nature then they would certainly not be able to influence the atmosphere of their homes and their husbands in their spiritual leanings. I have seen numerous times that when the wife was submissive to the husbands demands when they were not the right thing to do, and went along with his wishes, then the ending was not good to say the least.

    Rather a wife should be submissive and assertive, each in their correct times. And maybe because the woman’s role is to be submissive most of the time and in most cases (some men do need a more assertive wife)Rav Miller said the wife is submissive.

    I’m glad that you wash your husband’s feet or your wife washes yours, so I’ll concede the point that no women will wash their husband’s feet. But I guarantee you that MOST frum women who are yirah shomayim, and follow halacha will not wash their husband’s feet. As others previously pointed out, minhag homokum can have a huge impact on how we live out halacha.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162219
    philosopher
    Member

    I think this thread is becoming rather pointless. What’s a difference who should listen and obey whom, sometimes the wife’s opinion is correct and sometimes the husband’s. If everyone understands their tafkid in life, be they a man or woman and there’s mutual respect and honesty in the marriage then it will be sholom v’shalvah.

    One thing I can guarantee you, I nor any frum woman will wash their husbands feet.

    in reply to: Broken Engagements #919201
    philosopher
    Member

    While a lot of you seem to agree that the less chosson and kallah meet before and during the engagement the more likely it it for the engagement to last, the question is why?

    And that’s because even the nicest people have negative characteristics, as that is one aspect of being human. And these negative character traits surface and are visible when chosson and kallah meet often.

    So should a chosson and kallah meet less or just go for this new kind of pre-marital therapy?

    in reply to: Broken Engagements #919194
    philosopher
    Member

    May I be so bold as to suggest that’s it’s because young people feel they need to get “the perfect” shidduch and that doesn’t materialize because as humans everyone has their faults. And when you spend more time together the negative characteristics come up. What is a girl or boy supposed to look away from when they see their chosson/kallah has some anger management issues or not enough sensitivity or is conceited or any other of the myriad negative but human characteristics?

    What could a person look away from?

    Well, the easiest thing to do is call the whole engagement off.

    in reply to: Am I Right Or Am I Wrong? #685972
    philosopher
    Member

    I agree with the moderator.

    You are in the right here, however you won’t get anywhere with such a storeowner so unless you go to small claims court where you might not even win and it’s an expense as well, you will not get anywhere with him.

    This is naturally a frustrating experience for you, but I’d also suggest you let it go.

    in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025244
    philosopher
    Member

    mazal77 thanks for the chuckle.

    in reply to: Where do you shop? #685893
    philosopher
    Member

    Thanks mazal77 and dunno for the info.

    mazal, the skirts I saw from JC Penny were in their catalog. They don’t always have the same stuff in their stores. I don’t know what they have on their website because I can’t access their site from my computor since I have a whitelist for the internet.

    Hems, in addition to being let down with the extra fabric a skirt has, can also be lengthened by putting a wide matching ribbon on the edge of the skirt. These ribbons can be found in trimming stores.

    Can someone tell me where I can shop for my preteen daughter? I’m looking for a place with good quality, but cheap clothing.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162066
    philosopher
    Member

    smartcookie, you are indeed a smart cookie.

    in reply to: Feminism #1162065
    philosopher
    Member

    mosherose,

    It is not halacha that the wife is not allowed to have her own opinions and the husband SHOULD listen to the wife if her opinion is correct, like Hashem commanded Avraham Avinu to listen to Sura Emienu.

    There are a lot of couples who’s wife does not voice her opinion strongly and the husband does things that are not correct.

    You are hiding under halacha when you say a man shouldn’t help his wife with womanly duties. In fact Rav Miller speaks very strongly against men who able yet don’t help out at home.

    in reply to: Mistaken Lyrics #1087765
    philosopher
    Member

    movingmountains, I asked the same question on another thread and got answered by Daas Yochid. I copied his translation onto this post.

    Anovim lyrics: (not my translation)

    At the hour that the king moshiach comes, stands on the roof of the beis hamikdosh (holy temple) and he announces to Israel and says:

    Anovim anovim, (modest ones) the time of your redemption has come, and if you dont believe, see my light that shines

    in reply to: Feminism #1162026
    philosopher
    Member

    I gave up a career to be a stay at home mom, to be able to be home for when my kids come home and not have to send my baby to a babysitter. However, changing daipers, cooking, laundry and everything that involves housework bores me to tears. (lately I’m spending too much time here because of this reason).

    While I do agree that these things are important, but not every woman can enjoy doing these things.

    I think in today’s society we focus too much on our wants and as Jews our life needs to revolve on what we need to do to fulfill our tafkid.

    If that works out with our wants, then great. But even if it doesn’t we still need to do what Hashem requires of us.

    I feel that women should stay at home whenever possible untill their kids are old enough to handle a working mother. They should not be brought up with babysitters, nor come home to an empty home without a mother because she is busy working (like I did). If a mother can work around her kids schedules and work when the kids are older and in school, that’s great.

    in reply to: Where do you shop? #685885
    philosopher
    Member

    boredstiff, Anne Sez? I’ve never heard of them. Where are they located and do they have a website?

    artchill, I’ll tell you another thing, besides for the prices, why I can’t shop at frum stores (I’m not degrading frum owned stores, they have their advantages for those who do shop there). I don’t know where you live, but where I live the frum women’s clothing stores basically carry the color BLACK. Black, black and black again. HELLO, I hate black.A black skirt and shoes is were it ends for me. I love color! Pretty purples, different shades of blue, pretty beiges, rich browns. I once asked a saleswoman why they basically carry the color black, she said anything else doesn’t sell well. This is the color that women buy. It’s not the frum stores fault that they barely carry clothing with color. They are only providing for their clients what they want.

    in reply to: Where do you shop? #685884
    philosopher
    Member

    sofdavar, I bought a nice long skirt by JC Penny a few weeks ago that was $22 on sale (yes, I had a coupon and paid $18). It has a very nice cut and washes beautifully. I’m not sure if they still have it, but check it out. The style # for missus is xa957-1057. The style # for petites if anyone is interested is xa730-6039.

    It comes in black and other other colors.

    JC Penny also has a skirt in a very nice length which is actually available in different legnths for petites, misses and tall. It is also available in different colors. Here is the style number for misses xa814-3430 petites xa714-3430 and tall xa233-3430.

    I forgot to mention in my previous posts that JC Penny has great prices and a lot of good quality items. They have long sleeved t-shirts in the fall winter and spring. the brand is St. Johns Bay. I make sure to buy tops only if the material is made mostly of cotton.

    BTW, if you want to make a t-shirt neckline that is somewhat too large, tzniusdig, and the top has a hollow space between the outer and inner area of the neckline then you can do that by making two slits on the inside part of neckline on both sides of the seam (there’s usually just one seam in the neckline.) Pin a small safety pin on one side of a rubber that fits into the hollow space of the neckline and pull through. After making sure how much space you need, place anther safety pin on the other end of the rubber. Then sew the two ends of the rubber together. Sew the slitted fabric of the neckline secure to the rubber so that the fabric doesnt unravel and you’re good to go.

    in reply to: Where do you shop? #685880
    philosopher
    Member

    Talbots, Macy’s and Lord and Taylor are expensive and that’s why I wait for the sales. And I signed up for e-mail coupons.

    I don’t buy a lot of stuff, I don’t have the money for any extras but whatever I do buy I make sure it’s good quality with a nice fit and I find that to be only in the more expensive stores.

    Here’s how you find cheaper stuff at talbots online.Go to talbots.com and click on sale. They keep on getting new stuff in every week or two. Checking under outlets is mostly a waste of time and is not cheaper. Also sign up for e-mails to be informed when their sales stuff goes on sale for further reductions.

    Now you won’t find what your looking for every time you search, but if you enjoy browsing on line, then eventually you’ll find nice things. If you don’t enjoy browsing then it’s not for you.

    You should not have a problem with their 25″ long skirts when you hem them down an inch if the skirt is not a straight skirt.

    Lord&Talor and Macy’s also have fabulous sales. I just brought a $215 spring jacket for $64 at Lord and Taylor.

    You can barely find tznius clothing in most non-Jewish stores after their spring collection sells out and they only have their summer collection in. With their spring, fall and winter collections you shouldn’t have a problem if you look in the right places.

    The bottom line if you want good quality is – you need to wait for the sales, enjoy looking for bargains and only buy with coupons.

    in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025231
    philosopher
    Member

    oomis1105, you’re right. But this subject initially started out about if it’s tznius when girls have a freindly chat with policemen and deliverymen within earshot of me,the parent.

    in reply to: Where do you shop? #685875
    philosopher
    Member

    Thanks mischiefmaker for starting this thread.

    It’s not only where you shop, but how you shop is equaly important. If you learn the art of shopping, you can get great quality clothes for a fraction of the cost.

    For example, I saw a beautiful skirt that I wanted on Talbots.com. The skirt was $100. I waited and checked every other day if the skirt went on sale. Sure enough it went on sale and combined with a coupon, I snagged it for sixty dollars. Sometimes by the time the sale starts my size is sold out, however I still would not pay full price.

    %40 off is only when I was davka looking out for an item, however I generally buy when stuff is at least %50 off and mostly %60 off.

    Quality and good fit is very important. That’s why I generally shop at Macy’s, Lord and Taylor and Talbots. They carry good quality clothes, are mid priced and on sale you can get bargains.

    Also for fit it’s important to remember that women and girls 5’4 and under should get dresses, tops and coats in petite. I buy skirts in Misses sizes as they are longer. When I need to legnthen a skirt or dress more than the hem allows, I add a matching 1&1/5 inch ribbon on the bottom.

    in reply to: Honesty In 'Redding Shiduchim' RE: Weight #685667
    philosopher
    Member

    outoftowner123, your approach is correct and I like your attitude.

    mischiefmaker and sofdavarhakol hundreds of dollars for the “perfect outfit” is not hundreds of dollars for a wardrobe.

    And hundreds upon hundreds is also not the right amount of money to spend on a wardrobe. Hundreds of dollars is more like it. (Mischeif maker, painful stuff is not included in the wardrobe)

    sofdavar, I’m not a girl, but I am married woman and I like fashionable good quality clothes. Here’s where I shop – Talbots, Macy’s, Lord and Taylor for clothing. Shoes – Cole Haan (they’re comfortable as well as fashionable) Except for makeup (I buy MAC in Bloomingdales and some Macy’s stores also carry this brand) which never goes on sale, I never, and I mean, never pay full price. And I usually shop with coupons.

    Just a fashion reminder – if you’re 5’4 and under in height only buy petite!

    P.S. maybe we should open a thread for shopping and fashion

    in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025229
    philosopher
    Member

    Oh, and I forgot to mention that the most important ingredient in chinuch is siyatta dishmaya. First and foremost.

    in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025228
    philosopher
    Member

    tomim, We’ll see. Hopefully you’re right. I have explained to my kids that it’s dangerous and not tznius to talk to men other than relatives and the police are only there for emergencies. Hopefully, it will work.

    You have to understand something. When a child goes into the street, a mother can hit the child (yes, I do believe in hitting in such instances), and take the child into the house and explain this is a punishment for running into the street.

    But a older child talking to strangers when everybody around them is doing it, is a different situation. You cannot punish the child in front of everybody and I don’t think taking away priviliges is the right thing to do as a child can become obstinate and it’s not wise to make a bigger issue about this.

    Therefore I asked if people have any ideas on how to make kids comply out of their own free will-not because of a power struggle which I don’t think is wise in this situaton. But it doesn’t seem that people have any creative ideas here.

    Hopefully, with Hashem’s help, my children will be smart enough to understand that it’s important not to chat with strangers as we have discussed and will act differently than all the neighborhood kids the next time this situation comes up.

    And I’m still thinking of ideas how to help my kids make the right choices out of their own free will – not because they were coerced to do so.

    Discipline IS important, but you cannot fight all the time. you have to be wise and know that different situations call for different implementations.

    Actually, I like that sentence – different situations call for different implementations.

    in reply to: Non-Jewish Jewish Music #688419
    philosopher
    Member

    That’s true. Some tunes composed by by Jews sound more crazy and wild than the some composed by non-Jews.

    in reply to: Non-Jewish Jewish Music #688417
    philosopher
    Member

    I think Shalheves’s songs are all original songs composed by Yitchok Rosenthal.

    Anyone knows if Anovim is an original composition by Yossi Green or is from a non-Jewish source?

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