Forum Replies Created
Chayala, that’s a cute story.
Josh, dark suits today is an adopted frum levush as Jews have adopted there own levushim throughout centuries to distinguish themselves from the goyim. Let’s not go into whether you have to do that or not. The point is that those boys who do wear these suits and hats should be proud about it.
You know what, maybe with a change of levush comes expectation of more maturity and responsibilty which could very well be that those who do dress casually without a suit and hat don’t feel the change.
In any case, I think it’s important to let the boys know that the fact they are are going to HAVE to fulfill all the mitzvos that they will do is cause for celebration.
About bas mitzvas, okay, so maybe it’s NOT ONLY because of girls not performing more new mitzvos from one day to the next. But it is also not tzniusdig that girls should be focus and center of attention. I understand that Wolf brought a wedding celebration as an example against this reasoning. However, a bas mitzva is completely different than a wedding. Obviously, a bas mitzva girl will not be on the other side of the mechitza as her male guests would be by her chasunah. By a chasuna men and boys are busy being mesamiach chusan (hopefully), not her.
Anyway, the bottom line is, my husband and I will do as our minhug is (and I think a bar mitzva was a minhug in ALL of klal Yisroel, except today where it might become extinct in certain communities because “what’s the point” ) and make beautiful bar mitzvahs for my sons, iy”H. By beautiful I don’t mean lavish or showy, but rather a modest SIMCHA, an expression of thanks to the RS”O and excitement of our sons “coming of age”. And no our girls will not be jealous. They have no such hasugos of such “equality”. They will be excited as well for this SIMCHA.
Thats why it should be a shul focused celebration, not a hall celebration.
SJS,Why is a wedding different? There is no need for a hall there either.
There is no need to have a fancy hall celebration for a bar mitzvah and THAT sends the wrong message IMO.
Who said it needs to be a fancy hall celebration?
oomis, while girls and boys are equally chiuvim in fullfiling the the mitzvos. girls DO NOT do ONE SINGLE mitzva more after they turn 12. Boys ARE mchiuv to perform numerous new mitzvos, from one day to the next.
About making something nice for the girls when they turn bas mitzvah, I agree with you. You may have missed my last post regarding msking that day special for her.
A600kilobear, those who will marry BT’s and make sure their kids get accepted into frum schools can help people become frum.
There is barely place for children from frum families in these overcrowded schools so only the “best” families are easily accepted. The rest have to beg. Forget it when you are BT! It’s hard for them! I just read a letter in the Yated of how a BT father is crying becasue his children can’t get into schools.
You can’t play with people’s lives. If we are really ready to accept them in terms of totall integration within our families and schools then you have point, otherwise at the rate it’s going it will be a disaster.
Years ago, when a person became frum, they could send their kids to school without a problem. They could marry their kids off, with maybe a little more diffuculty than the regular family, just like any other family with issues, but today with the shidduch scene being what it is, this is even harder.
Only ten, fifteen years ago, when even the secular world beleived in family values, then you knew that a father is a father and a person’s mother is a mother. Can you guarantee that all of those we bring into our communities are not memzerim?
Years ago, if a person said he’s Jewish, he was. Today with so many sham conversions of the Reform and Conservative created a nightmare regarding really knowing who is a Jew untill it is too late.
It is not so simple to go to a college campus or the streets of Manhattan and set up a table and promote Judasim to anyone who claims they are Jewish. One needs to see the outcome of all of this.
I say that for those who are already frum, let’s take care of them. I feel it’s heartless to leave them hanging without freinds or a support system.
A600Kilobear, I basically agree with you, exept for a few points. What do you suggest, that the cheiyah ruahs on two feet, the Arabs should take over?
And I don’t think the Israelis will come running. America itself is on the verge of an economic collapse, the real estate bubble HAS collapsed, there are barely any jobs to be found, Sdom is here too in terms of immorality, and if the Mosque next to Ground Zero gets built then you can be sure the Muslim’s victory will become more than only symbolic.
The SJS, the FACT is, that boys’ lifestyles change when they turn 13 and the reason for the bar mitzvah celebration is that they should be excited for those changes.
Girls lifestyles do NOT change. It is an INNER change, a change in their penimius and girls do understand that when their upbringing is not focused so much on what each gender gets or doesn’t get. In my community, it is totaly not an issue, and I think in most communities where there is an acceptance of each of our different roles girls don’t even think twice about this.
I’m sorry if I’m being blunt, but thinking in terms of if boys get this then girls have to as well, if boys can do this then girls can as well, leads us down the path of women Rabbas.
Girls and boys are different, the way they come of age is different, what their halachic obligations are is different, and the way we go about these changes is different.
Girls, in communities where boys bar mitzvas are celebrated and not the girls bas mitzvas DO NOT feel less significent nor do they feel their role is of less importance in any way, just because boys have their bar mitzva and the girls don’t have big deal made of their bas mitzvas.
SJS, it’s exactly as Mod-80 said.
Girls and boys ARE different, period.
SJS, so for a big bas mitzvah bash do you think girls would want to become boys? Well if they don’t and they won’t act like boys nor perform religious obligations like the boys do, then they will not have a big celebration as well (nebach, nebach, poor girls , my heart bleeds for them, lol). It’s a package deal.
I think kids do clearly know what authority is, if the parent acts with authority in all situations.
A lot of kids have lost that respect to their parents because the parents are afraid of them.
Hitting out of anger and abuse, or without using seichel, can cause kids to hit as well.
SJS, I have children with completely different character traits. Some I’ve only potched once or twice, and some got quite a few petch from me.
When I see kids talking chutzpadig to their parents, it disgusts me. I want to go over and give a few ztezes on the rears of these kids AND their parents.
Health, I agree with you. Most of these kiruv orginizations leave the fresh BT’s sort of adrift on their own.
Also, I don’t believe we should go fishing for BT’s.
I say we should just concentrate on being good Jews, Jews with emes and derech eretz.
Josh31, reason “a” is for adult babies(the parents)only.
Reason “b” is a beautiful reason to show our excitement over this mitzva.
Here’s my reasoning for reason “c”: Boys entire LIFESTYLES change at age 13. Their chiuv to perform mitzvos makes their lives more demanding. From dressing like adults in suit and hat, to putting on teffilin, making sure to daven with a minyan, expecting them to act with more maturity… There’s a lot more that’s expected from a bar mitzvah boy (and older) than from a bas mitzvah girl regarding the performance of mitzvos.
A girl doesn’t cover her hair at that age, isn’t required to perform mitzvos shehazmon grama, her lifestyle doesn’t change. And because of the demands that are placed on a bar mitzva boy from one day to the next, we make it exciting and special. We make him have enthusiasm towards his coming of age so that he will take upon all the new mitzvos that he will perform with excitement.
That’s why we make we celebrate when we make a wedding, btw. Setting up a family is much more demanding than being single. From a husband (or wife – but is should really be the husband’s department) providing for his family, having children, bringing up children… It’s certainly much more burdensome than being single. So the wedding celebration is all about injecting excitement and to show that’s it’s an amazing time where we are building another binyan aday ad.
Lgabeh lavish and ostentatious simchos is another story. First of all, Jews have to act betznius in all aspects of our lives, even if they have all the money in the world. Tznius with our houses, simchos, dress and action.
Seperately from this is the crazy, needless pressure to keep up withe the “Cohens”. As my shitta is the middle way, I wouldn’t recommend making simchos in the house if others in the community do make it in a hall. I do believe that going the total opposite of ostentatious and making it in a very poor manner can also have a negative effect. So a simple hall, nicely, but not extra lavishly decorated, and excitement from the heart is a perfect recipe for perfect simchas. Simchas are excatly what the word implies – it’s a time for simcha.
As for bas mitzvas, I personally think a nice, women only type small celbration in one’s home, or a celebration for immediate family, also in the home, not in a hall, is a beautiful idea. I don’t see anything wrong with that. I think it’s a beautiful thing to show excitement at the time when a girl becomes mchiuv to do the mitzvos.
A potch in time saves nine!
A potch only until an appropriate age,
A potch for chutzpah or doing something unsafe.
Then an explaination why that potch you gave,
And with a kiss and hug, your relationship is safe.
I think, as oomis said, a potch can be used until a child can be reasoned with.
Btw, I think there is an halacha that one cannot hit a child over bar mitzvah.
Baalie teshuvas years ago usually had a better chance of integrating within the frum community because the moral decay in the secular world wasn’t that bad, so there wasn’t so much suspicion regarding the BT’s.
Also most baalei teshuvas years ago (I’m not talking about Russian baalei teshuvas which is a seperate category) became frum because they were attracted to Yiddishkeit or simply attended a frum school.
Today there is this mass movement to freneticly grab any person who claims they are Jewish and influence them to become frum, in an effort to stem the imagined total dissapearance of frum Jewry.
Granted, in the secular world assimilation is tragic and of immense proportions. But the cutting off of a large percentage of Jews from klal Yisroel is not a new phenomenon. It happened quite a few times in history.
The frum community is b”H growing nicely.
I don’t think we should focus on making baal teshuvas. I think we should focus on taking care of the new BT’s that are already in our communities, even after they were married and established a family. Ersht demelz, they need support.
Mod-80, I’m willing to bet you became a baal teshuva quite a number of years ago.
Most brand new baalie teshuvas today really stand out because of a number of reasons.
So did you chap as in realize or did you chap literally
smartcookie, I’ll let your figure it out… 😉
Smartcookie, the following explanation is not for you, you know this already. 🙂
Actually, I made a mistake. The correct translation of the word “chap” is “catch” The past tense of this word is “chapped” and the translation is of course, “caught”. This is the literal translation. But figuratively, this word could be applied as the word “realized”. Like I caught on what the moderator meant with “I’m with you”. (Smartcookie, that answers your question, in case you didn’t figure it out yet…)
I think it’s very normal to be insecure in certain areas, especially when we are young and the older we get, IF we work on ourselves, the more secure we become about ourselves.
I think that the most important thing is to have in mind that it doesn’t matter what others think of you, you only need to focus on doing the right things.
So if your freinds talk to you, it’s self destructive to start analyzing why they are talking to you. It’s important to focus on yourself, that YOU should BE a freind.
There’s nothing wrong with being klutzy. But if you are not keeping on tripping every second step you take or dropping objects, then I doubt your are klutzy though. I think your are just feeling like that.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so if you will be confident and appreciate the beauty that you most certainly have, then you are beautiful.
The word “chap” means realized in Yiddish.
Josh, the point is not about asking the kids what they want. It’s about SHOWING them what’s really important in life. Granted the bar mitzvah is only one night, while camp is for a few weeks. But still, my opinion is that a special celebration (relatively speaking, to each his own) at a time when a boy starts having a chiuv to perform the mitzvos, really shows the kids where our priorities are.
Again, it’s not how much one spends, but one spends where they feel it’s important.
Ha, ha Moderator-80, I was so busy when I first saw your post, I didn’t chap the what you intended with capitalizing the word “WITH”. I just chapped.
Moderator-80, thanks a lot.
gavra, while it’s true that it’s not how much parents spend for a bar mitzvah that’s important, if they spend a lot on vacation, camp, etc. and almost nothing on a bar mitzvah celebration then it doesn’t show how important such an occasion is to them.
I think most words could be used in a figurative way, not only in a literal way.
For example, if someone says “They were running late, so I ran to help them set up for the party”, doesn’t mean that they ran with their feet. It means that they got to there quickly, whether by car or by walking or any other mode of transportation.
gavra, very well said.
Mod-80 I’m saving up for my son’s Bar Mitzva, so the only thing I can spare you is some change.
SJS, celebrating that event in Israel is showing that it’s a special occasion.
Also, I don’t think kids have a true concept of money. They have a concept of fancy and flashy vs plain and simple.
True it’s not davka about how much one is spending. But I think it’s an important part of chinuch to make a (relatively) big matzav of important occasions and issues.
You don’t have to take the entire bar mitzva party on a cruise. That’s flashy (to say the least) and sends the wrong message.
But I believe one should mark these occasions with the budget one spends on important things so that kids SEE that it is important.
2morecents, may I assume you son’s chasunah will resemble his bar mitzva?
One should not assume that just because not marking the occasion worked for one kid it will work for others.
It’s not about fressing or lavish simchos. It’s not about keeping up with the Cohen’s. It’s about showing how important this occasion is for a boy, it’s marking it with simcha. MOST kids, if their parents spend money for other inconsequential things like camp and not on a bar mitzvah celebration, will get not get the simcha and that special feeling of being able to perform all the mitzvos that grownup men do.
I believe one spends where their priorities are. Everything else is lip service.
SJS, sorry in my previous post I used a patroninzing tone that I hate when others use for me.
Sorry about that.
But you get my drift. I think that celebrating an occasion does give kids a feeling of how important the occasion is.
Its important to stress the importance of the Bar Mitzvah (and even Bat Mitzvah) to your kids properly. Its a coming of age event for all kids – whether or not you celebrate it.
Whether or not you think it’s important, your kids will not get that, even if you explain the concept till your blue in your face. You need to prove to your kids that it’s important to you.
If all they see that you are spending money for a nice kitchen (hatzlocha with the remodeling and use it gezunterheit), vacations, etc. they’ll assume that that is what’s important. The bar mitzvah will be lip service. With kids (and ourselves), it’s not about the talking and explaining. It’s about the action.
SJS, Everything in life is petty but we must understand that materialism, if used the right way can have very powerfull effects and just the opposite, if used the wrong way will have negative effects. Let’s face it, 13 year old boys will not appreciate the mitzva to the fullest extent that even adults have trouble appreciating.
I’m not saying an axtravant, money wasting affair will have the right hoshpaoh. That focuses too much on the materialistic part. However, it is vital to show the bar mitzva boys what a special occasion this is.
If you go on vacation and spend money, buy your kids electronic toys etc., is this not fleeting? Even a nice house, while we look at it as it’s lasting, in reality it is not. Time passes by. We don’t live forever bound to our materialism whether it’s a house or car.
The feeling that you put into your kids by marking this occasion to the best of your ability is lasting. You are showing that this is important to you.
Let me ask you, will you make their weddings in shull too? You can make the chuppah outside. Not too many people need to come to the sheva brochos after the wedding, so how about inviting ten couples and doing it in your house? A wedding is certainly fleeting as well.
The bottom line is that no, special occasions don’t need to be big and ostentatious. In fact this downplays the holiness of such occasions as everyone is focused on shtissim. But still, we must try our best to make our simchos “real special occasions” by marking them ACCORDING TO OUR LIFESTYLE (that we can really afford to live – not on credit cards or charity), bar mitzvos included.
Health, I certainly will not argue with someone who knows exactly how many times it will take to punish my kids before they learn a lesson or if they will be more resentful that I drag them in as opposed to expect them to come in on their own when other kids are still playing outside. I absolutely cannot argue with someone who knows my kids inside out.
That being said, I really don’t want you to worry for them, so I’ll expalin to you what I mean with dragging in my kids as you seem to have taken the word “dragging” quite literally. With dragging in my kids, I don’t mean that I drag my kids by the hair while they scream, kick and cry. I simply meant that I need to exert my entire authority without resorting to yelling to get my kids in the house while tons of kids are still playing outside.
Nebach on my poor kids for their witch of a mother who calls them in at an appropriate hour (my opinion anyway) , makes them eat with flatware instead of their hands and wipe their mouths with napkins not with their sleeve, forces them to take baths, doesn’t let her kids fight, or enforcing other such terrible and mean rules.
I think I should seriously worry if they will resent me.
When we remodeled our kitchen (I don’t have a big kitchen, but this was a necessity as it was old and nausiating) we were trying to cut costs at every corner. We called our Rov if we really need a milchig stovestop or we can forego it.
My Rov said a gevaldige thing. He said if we put in new cabinets (not custom made, but cheapest of the cheapest)new sinks and new countertops we can spend the extra $250 for a separate milchig stovetop.
Same here. I’m not talking about bas mitzvas. I’m not talking about extra luxuries or extravagant affairs. I am talking about boys marking a major event in their lives, an event that marks their entrance into adulthood and their full responsibilty to follow the Torah laws.
If one doesn’t go on vacations and their entire lifestyle is totally moneypinching in all areas, I can understand them for only sponsoring a kiddush in shul. But if there is money for extracurricular activities (like music lessons,etc.), vacations, a nice house then I would think that only a kiddush in shul shows that one places more importance in other areas of their lives.
Not that I’m saying one should make extravagant affairs. I think a person’s entire lifestyle should be lived how they can afford it and those who live lavishly can’t necessarily afford it. But I think one should make a bar mitzvah (not bas mitzva)in the same bracket as how they live their lives so that the children can see that we are very serious about marking this milestone to the best of our ability.
Health, I appreciate your concern regarding my dragging in my kids. But really, I’m not resentful that I have to do so. All I said was that it’s hard to drag in my kids when all the other neighborhood kids are still playing outside.
Giving my children alarm watches will not help regarding it becoming easier. I will have to enforce the rule of them being in at a certain time which would not be easy as I know they will have a bucketfull of excuses and then they would need consequences. At this point I don’t see the need for that.
My kids are b”H responsible in the areas I expect them to be. I see no need to enforce a rule that I believe would rather be appropriate when they are a little older.
As I said, when I will determine the time is ripe, I will teach them responsibilty in this area as well. In fact, at that time I will suggest to my kids that they can set their alarms on their watches as a reminder to be home on time. (I just thought it was funny for all my kids to have alarm watches going off at the same time and envisioning them running into the house at once, which as I said before is not really realistic expectation at this time.)
As for my kids seeing that I am bossy, well they would see the same thing if I would try to enforce the rule that they should come in on time on their own.
There is no dodging it. Parents need to be bossy, or rather the correct term for that would be authoritative. As long as parents don’t abuse their authority by trying to use it to inflate their ego or make unreasonable demands of their children, then yes their children should see their parents as their authority who has the last word.
mazal, please don’t think that I think what you’re doing is wrong. I just meant to say that I don’t think it would work for everyone. If it works for your family then that’s what counts.
Since this happened only once, I wouldn’t say anything either. If it continues on a steady basis, I’d have a talk with him in a non-judgemental way and see if there is a problem with him as it could very well be a mental problem.
If you discern that he’s normal, but not a baal middos, then in a polite way, I’d make him aware that his behavior can be disturbing to others.
smartcookie, that’s an excellent idea. In fact, I paid my daughter to tutor a younger sibling and it worked like a charm.
I didn’t think of using this in general, but it’s and excellent idea. I’ll just subsitute small money (change for the younger kids)for coupons and then I won’t have to give my kids an alllowance, which I believe is not the greatest idea.
So thanks aries and smartcookie, this is a really fabulous solution.
So again, everyone gets to choose what they think is right for their own family.
That’s so true, aries.
mtornik, you are right. Some parents never take the time to help their kids with their issues. The busy lives they lead makes them ignore burning issues and they think it’s going to work out on their own.
Of course, then there are always people who blame their good (albiet human) parents for all their problems.
actually aries, while your coupon idea is a good one, the drawback is that kids can feel an entitlement while they do their jobs that they are supposed to. I’d rather not give out coupons for my kids doing their duties which they have to learn to do anyway.
But your idea is still a good one. I guess as with every idea it has its pros and cons.
I think I’s rather stick with a small allowance, which also has its pros and cons.
mazal, I tend to agree with your philosophy, but I think it’s a scary road to travel. I personally know people who became very effected by having almost nothing, while their freinds had a lot (accordingly anyway). These people developed jealousy, the grass-is-always-greener on the other side syndrom, or the neverending craving for materialism.
Of course, on the other hand, people who got this kind of chinuch also became very appreciating people, people who are not materialistic.
I guess it boils down to really, really knowing your kids well amd being sure they are not growing up resentful.
So while I may agree with your shitta, I’d rather travel the middle road.
aries your coupon idea is an excellent one.
I would say if you believe a child can’t look at his/her watch until eleven, try the alarm watch.
Ha,ha, ha. You can’t be serious. That’s really funny.
No thank you, I’m not giving my kids alarm clocks. I don’t have a problem dragging them in.
It’s easier to blame neighboors and everyone else than being a good parent!
Why do you say that? Were you blaming the neighbors?
aries, I agree with your last post.
However, I still think, and maybe that is not shayach for all parents as we each have our own style, that one cannot only make rules based on what one thinks is the right way. I have seen people, and I call them shitta mentchen, who for no money will they accept that they are too rigid in their demands of what they expect from their children. And it’s not that their demands are not correct. Rather they are not correct within their surroundings.
Taking a little example of the silly bandz. I personally feel that kids should not get something out of the blue. I feel they need to earn it, whether it is finishing a chart or whatever or it needs to be a special occasion. But when all my daughters freinds got the silly bandz, and my girls asked for them, I got it for them. No, I didn’t get two, three packs for each of my girls, like their freinds got. My kids got only one. But I don’t believe I should have not brought them any at all just because I don’t believe in not buying for kids just like that. I don’t believe it’s healthy for kids to drool over what others have. So yes, they got less than what others got. But yet they weren’t deprived.
That’s why I like the idea of an allowance as I’ve mentioned before, because it teaches kids to make their own (hopefully smart) decisions so at least when kids buy something, or save up the money they can learn lessons, such as the value of money.
Big things, such as bar mitzvahs, camp, etc. children should not have a say and of course parents should do what is best for the family, not what others are doing.
But again, my opinion regarding day to day life in the 21st century, I’m not talking what was in the previous generations, is that there needs to be a balance between not indulging and not depriving our children. And yes, there is the factor of the surrounding environment that a parent needs to think consider.
That’s how I feel about it, but we as humans and parents may have different opinions.
Health, knowing the time is not the only prerequisite for a child to have the responsibility of being home on time. A child must be mature enough to keep track of time even when they are engrossed in playing.
We can have a different opinions about the age where one can expect their child to come in at a certain time. I don’t expect it as of yet from my kids, nor do I care to enforce such a rule that my kids at the age that they are should come in on there own. As I said, I think eleven years old is the ideal age to teach kids that they must come in at a certain time on there own.
People shouldn’t throw their hands up in the air and say “I can’t”!
I agree. That’s why I opened this thread so that there can be discusions which would bring forth good ideas on the issue of “where we can find the middle way, the balance of not spoiling our kids while not being too restrictive”.August 1, 2010 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm in reply to: Breach in Tznius: Recent affliction attacking Klal Yisroel #1025982
Do you mean that any solution is better then no solution? That seems destructive.
Doing nothing is the most destructive thing of all. One has a chiuv to protest pritzus or any other sin in a suitable forum. What negative outcomes can happen if one writes in places such as the CR or other non-threatening places, such as writing letters to publications and the like, about the importance of tznius?
I propose the problems isn’t “those evil prutzahs”.
Prutzasdige women are part of the problem. They are not babies. They are adults who make adult decisions and should know better. We will all be held accountable for are deeds, prutzahs included.
I propose we as a society – men and women – need to do some soul searching, and reevaluate our priorities.
That would be the ideal situation, but it will never happen if people will not be aware of the harshness of pritzus.
Or terribly large seforim which have little to do with Halacha, but running on the terrible need to make more and more rules to compensate for the lost feeling of tzinius.
If you are talking about Rabbi Falk’s sefer, then it has much to do about halachas of tznius.
You are right though. It cannot compensate for the lost feelings of tznius. That’s a tragedy in itself.
Has the sledgehammer mehalach ever worked in our generation? EVER? Or has it just made people defensive? Has anyone really done anything because you threaten them?
On this forum, I don’t see anyone threatening anybody. Saying the truth about din v’cheshbon is not threatening. It is saying the truth.
Also, in a lot of schools where tznius is very enforced, the majority of girls do end up being tzniusdig as married women. Learning about tznius and enforcing the rules from when girls are young, create a feeling of tznius in these girls which doesn’t change for most of them, even after marriage.
It is also very important to create a feeling FOR tznius, not just OF tznius, as you are trying to say. But the bottom line is that, yes, using the sledghammer to chisel a beautiful form of a Jewish daughter as opposed to leaving one huge blob of a human is what we are doing our entire lives in chinuch as parents and educators. Certainly we should do that in the area of tznius.
This is not Europe. There is no organized Kehilla. We need to accept these realities, and look inward.
Wow! You brought out a very good point. Maybe that is the problem and that’s why in the Chassidishe communities halachas of tznius are , in the majority of cases, mostly adhered to.
Anyone who is unsure about mixed swimming with one’s wife should call their Rabbi and ask a sheiloh.
You talk about kids being spoiled today. I said kids are spoiled in every generation.
As I kid I wasn’t spoiled. Neither were my freinds. Cerainly we were not lacking in materialism, but it was not that things were needed as much as they were today. Today’s necesities used to be considered luxuries. That kids get a lot more is an understatement. The generation before that, the children of Holocaust survivors were certainly not spoiled. In Europe too, there was rampant poverty. In the more affluent countries such as Germany and certain parts of Hungary, there too, for the vast majority the children were not spoiled. Maybe they had a doll, some sweets, good quality clothing, certainly not what kids have today.
I’m not saying life was easy in previous generations. I’m saying that every generation had their challenges. I understand that you have a different opinion. I’m just stating my opinion.
The reason I opened this thread was to come out with concrete ideas on how to not spoil kids even if kids around them are being spoiled. That I’m frustrated with other parents who do give things without cheshbon because it does effect the way I need to parent, did make it’s way into some of my comments. There’s nothing wrong in expressing some frustration at this situation, just like when you express frustration at for example, the lack of ahavas Yisroel in the CR.
You then analyze me and tell me what I think, how i feel and what I mean by what I am saying. Then you tell me what I think about you, how I should feel, what I should be saying, what I should be doing, what I brought into the conversation, what I shouldn’t have brought into the conversation, quote by quote by quote.
Of of course I’m analyzing you. I’m showing you quote by quote where I feel you are overstepping the line by being judgmental and rude. Imagine if I were to say that your parents were stingy because they didn’t give you what other kids in your times had. That would be a disgusting thing to say. Well, I think it is the ultimate of rudeness to say that “I’m holding my kids accountable and responsible” for not coming in one time. Or other such comments.
Every post that appears on this or other threads is not a personal answer to you so stop taking everything so personally. It is not a personal debate with you either.
If a post is addressed to me, if you write philospoher, then I assume it is a comment that you intended for me. Otherwise I may simply write a post stating my different opinion, just as you are entitled to do so.
Not everything needs to be chewed up and digested and quoted and answered word for word and point by point.
That’s how I do it if I have points to make. No I don’t have to do it. I want to.
And not everything or everyone needs to be analyzed to see if they have a motive behind their words.
That’s right. That’s why I’m quoting you for you to realize that I am not analyzing or digging deep into your words. I’m simply offended at your words. It’s right there in black and white.
You are entitled to your opinions as I am to mine.
I agree one hundred percent. I just feel that disagreements don’t warrant being called judgemental or posting comments in a very disparaging way.
Lets just call it a truce.
Sure, I’d love to do so.
Philosopher, I don’t know what your problem is. Honestly, you started this discussion about dragging your kids in, and holding them responsible and accountable right here, I brought down your quote!
I never said I didn’t write about dragging in my kids. I said you started that discussion. Here’s where you did:
If you and your husband decide that bedtime is at 7:00 and your neighbors don’t put their children to sleep until 8:00 are you doing something wrong?…
I never said I hold them responsible or accountable. In fact I said you CAN’T hold kids responsible if your kids are younger than 11 years of age. My kids are younger than eleven years. I said I have to drag them in. There’s nothing wrong with that. They are kids and they are allowed to act like kids.
Secondly, just because you start one topic on a thread does not mean that it isn’t going to lead and veer off to include other things. That is just plain ridiculous to say. Your entire comment about me is ridiculous and it has absolutely nothing to do with me. It is your own self-projection. Maybe you are reading ME wrong, or you are just plain offended by any comment I make. You don’t own this blog and it isn’t up to you to control it.
And where did I say you are not allowed to change topics? All I said was that you started the discussion about other parents’ rules, not I.
You assumed that YOU knew what it was like raising children in previous generations, but that is impossible for anyone to know because they were never parents in a previous generation
Well, I certainly grew up in the previous generation. I was the kids and I know what we had back then. The kids back then had MUCH less that today. There was much less the parents had too. The current generation is much more steeped in materialism, and I wanted to start a thread about kids being spoiled. You don’t have to agree that kids are more spoiled today. But you don’t have to take such an agressive stand against my opinion.
Obviously you only know how to talk nicely to OTD’s (assuming I believe you about all of that). The following is what I find offensive:
You don’t have to look what others are doing, and you don’t have to judge them right or wrong. You only need to focus on your
own family, your own deeds, your own choices and your own decisions and stop worrying so much about everyone else.
Yes I do have to worry about what other people are doing lgabeh how it affects my kids. However, if you have a different opinion you can say it decently. You don’t have to talk about judging (your favorite word). You can just say, in a non-threatening way, that one should look what’s good for their children, not what others are doing.
Also you wrote:
I didn’t expect my kids to tell time or keep track of time. That was MY responsibility, and if I was late they were late. I didn’t blame them I blamed myself for not paying attention to the clock or for losing track of time.
While you are not saying it outright, since you were addressing me, it is obvious that you are implying that you are saying that I hold my kids responsible, not me, for their bedtimes, or that I blame my kids for there coming in late. You even say that outright in your last post, that I hold my kids responsible and accountable.
I don’t know why you keep on repeating about past generations challenges. What’s the point? I said I am sure every generation has it’s own challenges.
Overall, posts that are addressed to me are written in an agressive manner. Of course your going to deny that. I’m not assuming otherwise.
The funny thing is that you write:
In the early years when my kids were little I couldn’t afford to buy them the toys they wanted. When I was a kid my parents couldn’t even afford to buy me a real Barbie doll and I understood that, but I was a little envious that my friends had the real thing and I had a cheap imitation. Most of my friends went to sleep away camp, I didn’t even go to day camp. It was considered a luxury for girls at that time. Today even the poorest of kids manage to get into some camp. Parents are looked upon as bad parents if they don’t do whatever they possibly can to send their kids to camp.
Yes kids have a lot more in this generation than in previous ones…
Then you write And each generation complained about how spoiled their generation of kids were.
Well, make up your mind, are kids today more spoiled or not?!!!
The point is not what was in my generation or the previous one. You can wax nostalgic about it. The point is that today’s kids ARE spoiled.
aries, first of all, I don’t know why you’re talking about blaming kids. No on is doing so. Not me, nor any other poster here.
Second of all, I originally started this thread about materialism, not any other rule that parents have. You are the one that bought up the topic of other kids’ bedtimes and I never said I care when other people do take in their kids. All I said is that I DO have to take that into consideration.
I’m sure childraising was challenging in your generation as well as generations before. However, regarding materialism, this is a very challenging generation. You don’t have to agree with me, but this is my opinion.
You know areis, you are always busy about not being judgemental. And yet you yourself are very judgemental whenever you try to bring your point accross. It’s very annoying when you write your posts suggesting I wrote or implied things that I never did. I suggest that you don’t try to project from my posts what your FEEL I am projecting, because you are doing a bad job. Just stick to what I say, if you want to honestly debate an issue.
I really like these ideas regarding how to not overindulge kids:
1. Set an allowance
2. If a child wants an item that is bigger than what you want to spend for special occasions, they have to work for it
Also it’s important to spend enough time and give enough attention and focus on cultivating a close relationship with our children.
Health and aries. There’s good advice and then there’s reality.
First of all, I don’t believe that kids under eleven years of age can be held accountable to know the time when they are expected in the house if all the kids are playing outside. If a kid goes to a freind’s house, you can ask the mother to send her/him home at a certain time. But when all the neighborhood kids are playing outside then it’s understandable that kids lose track of time. If a child is over eleven, then you can teach them responsibility in this area. If a child is under eleven, the yes, the parent may have to drag in the kid. Some kids are naturally obedient, and some kids (from what I’ve seen is most kids) need to be dragged in when they are called in earlier than the others. Feel free to disagree with me that kids under eleven can know when to come and will come in on their own.
aries, Nobody’s saying that you need to raise kids according to other people’s values. What I’m saying is that neighbors and freinds DO have an effect on our values, especially kids, whether you agree with that concept or not. Otherwise we would send our kids to public school, if freinds don’t have an hashpoah. Let’s be realistic. I’m not talking about making an extravagant bar mitzvah, for example, because all your kids freinds are making it. I’m saying in day to day life, yes one’s freinds and neighbors way of life and middos do make a difference and DO have an effect on one’s child.
As it says in our shacharis davening after brochos, yehi rotzen…shetatzileinu…imaychaver ra, imishuchen ra.
That’s why, in this day and age of excessive materialism, it is a balancing act between what you do have to give your kids even if it is little more than what you would really like them to have. If you are just going to stick to your guns and not consider what others get, you might bring up a resentful child that may rebel. So it’s a real balancing act to consider what is essential to the child, even though you don’t really think it’s essential, but in the broader picture it is, and knowing where to put limits.
It is sort of like defensive driving. Even if you are a good driver, if others out there are not, then you can be right, but you can be DEAD RIGHT.
So yes, you may have your shittas, and they may be good ones, but the way you bring up your kids must be with consideration of what others around you are doing.
Therefore it’s doubly hard, because you need to give in a way that will not cultivate in your child a feeling of entitlement and also not a feeling of resentment. This IS because of the excessive materialism of others. This applies to all other values, rules and principles in parenting.
Yes rules are VITAL, yes it’s important to let our kids know that we don’t do what what every Tom, Dick and Harry does, yes it’s important to stick to our principles, but we must do so with seichel.
aries, you’re right. But it’s very hard to drag in your kids 7:30 when all the neighborhood kids are out untill much later.
Do you think kids won’t resent being called in every day the earliest than all the neighborhood kids? There’s a limit how much you can do because you feel it’s right.
That’s what I’m saying. It’s true that you have to stick up for your principles. But in today’s generation, if a parent wants to do what’s right, they need to tread a very carefully and it’s hard.