Forum Replies Created
Josephf, we don’t impose anything on anybody. See Chazon Ish hilchos shchita. We gently motivate people by showing them the beauty of yiddishkeit. We do not show the beauty of yiddishkeit to somebody by throwing acid in the face of her sister. That is the Taliban religion.
Yoshi, you are right. I often shudder when thinking aout what if I met a non-frum person, and wanted to invite him for a Shabbos and take him to shul. What in the world would he see that might motivate him? Would the type of davening in most shteiblach and yeshivishe shuls and the general attitude and behavior of the mispallelim be positive or negative on a total beginner. Do people come over and wish a warm shalom aleichem to a stranger, or just talk with their old buddies afterwards.
Are their any nice niggunim, or just fast mumbling. Would the drasha be comprehensible to a beginner, or just yeshivishe raid?
I get nervous thinking about it.
Lgbg, I will buy your newphew a pack of clips.
Seriously, you raised a valid point in your story about the restaurant. If we insist our women should dress like nuns, then where do you think our men will focus their attention? On the non-Jews.
In fact, dressing attractively is a requirement for Jewish women, as long as it is tzniusdig. The gemara says a father must buy his daughter things that will make the men “jump” on her, meaning want to marry her on the spot.
In addition, there is a halacha in Shulchan Oruch that a wife who doesn’t use the standard makeup and perfumes of the times can be divorced without a kesuvah.
Let us not Talibanize the women in the guise of non-existent halachos. Keep tznius, but at the same time, dress attractively.
Now, Lgbg, I am only popular because I made all the cholent for your Sheva Brachos. Please post a video here of everybody eating it.
Bowzer, you are correct that yeshivos are asuring things that have no problem in halacha. Unfortunately, I just saw a note about the dress code for a yeshiva whose Rosh Yeshiva I admire very much. It said that one is not allowed to use any clips or bobby pins to fasten his yarmulka.
This is a real problem, as it means the yeshiva is focusing on chitzonius and politics, rather than yiras shomayim and ahavas yisroel. This particular yeshiva is known to be one of the most embracing of the chareidi yeshivos. I will gently speak to the Rosh Yeshiva and tell him that this is a problem. Lo dayecha ma sheasra Torah?
Nameless, I appreciate your thoughts, however, my policy is that when someone throws around one of these yeshivishe slogans as did the originator of the thread, I challenge him to be masbir and matim what he said, or else it is simple, meaningless gayvah and arrogance.
JosephF and Feivel, you simply cannot have it both ways. If the Jews are on the same scale as the non-Jews, and every Jew is better than every non-Jew, then the lowest percentile possible for Weitzmann and Olmert is 99.8, a pretty stuning grade.
If Jews and non-Jews are on different scales, then how do you compare the two to say one is better than the other? It is impossible, as you have no common yardstick by which to judge.
Goodpop, you hit the nail on the head. Short of time, and will take an entire book to be maarich on this point, or at least a separate thread which don’t have time for now.
Somehow, the yeshivishe velt got it into their heads that the more primitive one is, the more broken is his English, the poorer are his Math skills, and the more ignorant of science, then the more endeared he is to the RBSH. I personally believe the exact opposite. The Torah is sophisticated enough to stand up to any challenges, and its learners should be able to present impeccably in front of any audience on any learned topic. This is the kiddush hashem we aspire to, not making utter fools of ourselves when meeting people of other backgrounds and education. Instead of teaching our youth how to make a better impression, we tach them how to avoid other people by banning everything and anything that might lead to contact with another human outside the yeshivishe velt. Then we can keep going around feeling smug and arrogant about how great we are compared to all the others. (If you can’t beat ’em, run away and avoid all contact so you don’t have to confront reality.)
As far as the drashos you mention, I was just saying the exact same thing to some friends. The basic drasha is always “We see from the Torah the importance of learning Torah.” What I asked my friends was, isn’t this somewhat circular reasoning? Of course if one is learning Torah one is going to see the importance of learning Torah. What needs to be explained is how that will improve the world, and why someone who is not learning Torah might want to start learning Torah, and how does one inspire himself to accomplish great things, and why does Torah learning make one more of a mensch (not because the Torah says it does, but a real-life example.)
It is so tiring to keep hearing the same yeshivishe slogans thrown around time after time, without the slightest hesber, or attempt to make relevant, or taama dikra in the sense of the taste of the posuk. Torah can be made to taste great, but only when one realizes the greatness of the world and the briyos, as a whole. Then the Torah adds flavor to everything in the world.
I would like to say pshat in shelo bairchu batorah tchila, not as the yeshivishe velt says that they learned torah like any other chochma (Why in the world would a person learn Torah if they didn’t feel it was from the RBSH? It would otherwise be the most boring and irrelevant subject in the world. How many non-Jews would have the patience to study a blatt gemara anyway. What good would it do them?) Rather I think the pshat is shelo bairchu birchos hanehenin on the Torah. They didn’t get a geshmak from it, but only learned it for the mitzva or because it was the yeshivishe thing to do. It became a drudgery and a meaningless cult. If they realized what a treasure it was and how it makes one a better person in bein adam lachaveiro and increased his ahavas habriyos and his anivus and his connection with the RBSH, and how talmidei chachamim are marbim shalom baolam with their mido tovos towards all human beings, they would have been dancing over every blatt, not knocking those who aren’t members of their cult with their stupid meaningless gayvah and arrogance.
Just my take on things.
100%. May I add when you are on the subway, and see a member of a minority struggling with many kids, you say hello and tell them how nice their kids are, and play with the kids for a minute or two.
Also realizing that other people also have a tzelem elokim (Unless they forfeit it like a suicide bomber or a nazi r”l), and have a mission on this earth. They all take pride in what they are doing. By building a bridge the right way, or painting a nice picture, or deliveriung the food to the store, or collecting the trash on time, they are doing a service to the briyos and to the RBSH. Millions of people both Jews and non-Jews have a chelek in every single word of Torah that is learned. This is the ikar anivus and hakaras hatov that allows one to be zocheh to any madraigos whatsoever in avodas hashem. Without it, every word of Torah is nothing but gasus haruach.
We in the frum community sometimes pride oursleves on doing and teaching chesed. I am reminded of the Rashi that says that the Chasidah is a treifeh bird, because “oseh chesed im mino” it only does chesed to members of its own species or club. We need to broaden our horizons and understand that our mission is to be kind to the whole world, and by doing chesed and giving them a taste of true yiddishe warmth, they will see how enjoyable it is, and seek to increase their own chesed. Thus, this sets off a vicious cycle of chesed in the entire world. Unfortunately so many of them believe it is a dog-eats-dog world, simply because they have never been exposed to any warmth from a fellow human being who is unrelated.
Torahis1, I am very sorry but this list is reserved exclusively for the biggest “apikursim” on YW, of which I am proud to be a member. You obviously understand that we can’t accept just anyone into this club. The application process alone will take you months. You first need a transcript from an accredited college, and 3 letters of recommendation from Rabbonim whose shuls you have been thrown out of attesting to your krum hashkafas. You must also get a letter from the Israeli govt saying you are a certified Zionist. You must wave the Israeli flag on Yom Hatzmaut, and say Hallel with a bracha and a flag. You must eat Bamba snacks with a blue and white logo. You must enroll for a zman at Rav Druckman’s Yeshiva. You must also get a signed letter from the Dean of Yeshiva University stating that you have walked in there at some point, and that you are familiar with their motto. You must be able to recite this motto b’al peh. Finally, you must visit 770 Eastern Parkway and learn 3 Lubavitch songs and be tested on your singing. You must chant Yechi Adoneinu before davening.
In addition to this, you must submit an original project of your own initiative proving that you are indeed an “apikorus” and that you are worthy of being inducted into the club. It will be judged by a panel of qualified judges.
Good luck, and we look forward to hearing from you.
To tvt, well-said. Let’s also not forget the posuk Lo btzidkascha hashem elokecha nosein lcha es haaretz hatova hazos lrishta, ki am ksheh oref atah.
Gayvah is asur mikol vakol. That is the gadlus of klal yisroel.
Azh, the Reb Moshe you quote is very shver, and I doubt you could defend it. Not that I can challenge Reb Moshe, as I am not a moreh horaah, but if one learns the Rambam, there is certainly room to ask questions. The Rambam (Talmud Torah 3,10) writes kol hameisim al libo sheyaasok btorah vlo yaaseh melachah vyisparnes min hatzedakah harei zzeh chilel es hashem ibazah es hatorah vichavah maor hadas vgaram raah latzmo vnatal chayav min haolam haba…kol torah sh’ein imah melacha sofa bteila vgoreres avon, vsof adam zeh sheyehai melastem es habriyos. He goes further in (3,11). He also says in (3,6) lo alecha hadavar ligmor, implying it is understood that in olam hazeh it is difficult to learn kol hatorah kula and one is not expected to finish, just to do his best, given the constraints of parnasa.
If Reb Moshe would have said that we don’t pasken like the Rambam, or that it is eis laasos lashem, and we must violate the Rambam, fine. But what bothers me is how you can learn a pshat in the Rambam which is 180 degrees the opposite of what the Rambam says in black and white. I don’t see how the Rambam could have made it any clearer that he feels one should not be somech on his learning for parnasah. How can you say that the words KOL hameism al libo sheyaasok btorah vyisparne min hatzedakah…KOL torah shein imah melacha sofa bteilah… means that one is mechuyav to support himself from tzedakah if he doesn’t know kol hatorah kula or will not be able to know kol hatorah kula if he works. Do you mean to say that this halacha only applies to one who has already learned Kol Hatorah Kula? Why didn’t the Rambam tell us this himself? This is probably the most shver Reb Moshe I have ever seen. If anybody can say pshat, please do so.
Joseph and Feivel,
Without getting into the merits of your statments, you’ll be happy to know that Catholics feel the same way about their religion, as do Muslims about their’s, and Hindu’s about their’s. So everybody is happy. Each feels that their co-religionists are better or holier or more saved than everybody else.July 22, 2008 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm in reply to: The greatest financial supporter of Torah Jewry in the world #634031
Hakatan, a rebuttal.
First, you seem like a sincere individual, but it is propaganda that you have been fed that has affected you. It is unfortunately rampant in the Yeshiva World, and you are not the only victim. Second, I live here in the comfortable USA.
Regarding your points:
1) The govt being short of money and choosing not to support yeshivos, does not mean it is trying to shutter them, any more than if a meshulach comes to me and I can only give him a meager amount for his yeshiva does not mean I am trying to shutter his yeshiva.
2) Regarding the lack of yahadus. Please show me anywhere in the world where the percentage of frum Jews is higher. The vast majority of Israelis today make a seder and I believe even fast on YK.
3) The reform movement began in Europe long before the Zionists and the medinah existed, and had already made a big percentage, possibly even the majority, of Jews to be non-frum. If chinuch was so perfect in Europe, how did this happen?
Regarding the statments of the zionist leaders during the holocaust, they are all lo maaleh vlo morid. The holocaust was perpetrated by the Nazis and the local anti-semites and tHere is not a single thing the zionists or anybody else could have done. Those statements by the Zionists are offensive and childish, but are essentially meaningless. I used to be bothered by them, and I read the Unheeded Cry by Rav Weissmandl, but I later came to believe nothing could have been done anyway. Let me explain. Supposedly there was some crazy deal that one could bribe the Germans and buy them trucks, and then they would save some Jews. Do you really believe this? EVery thing the Nazis did was based on deception and lies. Hitler violated every agreement he ever signed. In addition, the Nazis would always try to win confidence and then stab in the back. They would say before an aktion that everybody needs to assemble in the town square and leave their homes unlocked, and we are only going to take a census or something similar and anybody not showing up will be shot. SO they would all show up, and sure enough the Nazis would deport the group, and then raid their houses and plunder.
When they got to the camps, they were told they should remove their valuables for a shower, the Jews complied and then were gassed. Countless examples.
It is quite logical that the Nazis after receiving the 1 million dollar bribe for trucks would likely use those same trucks to go after even more Jews, now gaining more money plus more dead Jews in the process. Who in the world would trust a Nazi. In retrospect, maybe we should be glad that that bribe money was spent building up EY or for other causes, remaining in Jewish hands, rather than supplying the Nazis in some dubious deal.
So the Zionists, despite whatever they supposedly did or did not say, had absolutely no control over the killings, even a ki hu zeh.
Regarding Gush Katif, I felt terrible and totally opposed the expulsion, and had friends there. But nevertheless, there was a legitimate argument put forth that why should 30,000 or more soldiers be at risk to protect 8,000 people? It is not for me to decide, as majority rules in Israel, and they elected Sharon with full knowledge of what he was going to do. My only taynah was that if you don’t want to protect them, at least let them stay at their own risk, and don’t expel them. Why this was not done, I don’t know.
However, keep in mind that supposedly Rav Shach said that one should give up land for peace, and Rav Ovadiah Yosef supposedly wrote the same thing a while back, as well. So leshitascha, the right thing was done, anyway. The fact that it wouldn’t lead to peace was obvious to me, but could not be proved before the expulsion.
4) I am not saying everything the govt does is right. It has a long way to go, but you need to see the tremendous matanah the RBSH gave us that we have any Jewish gov’t at all over there. We have a beautiful land and country and beautiful people being moser nefesh to build and improve it each and every day.
5) Even the nonfrum in the govt have a pintele yid. I just read in Mishpacha magazine that Levi Eshkol every Shabbos would sit in a special chair and sing his father’s and grandfather’s niggunim.
6) You need to read Rav Teichtal’s Eim Habanim Smechah, where he excoriates the frum community for not working together with the Zionists to build a frum state. INstead they operated with their usual cherems and bans, and the Zionists were left to do the work alone. It is no wonder the state is not frummer. Finally, he brings a shtarker raya that the zionists have tremendous zchusim. We know that the land will vomit out sinners. Since the land hasn’t vomited them out, it is a rayah that they are chaviv in the eyes of the RBSH.
Joseph, if you really believe as you do, then try some math. The Jews are 0.2% of the world population. Therefore any Jew is automatically in the 99.8th percentile according to you. That would include Chaim Weitzmann, Ehud Olmert and all the Zionists, as well. So why do you criticize them constantly? Is it normal to criticize a child for getting a 99.8 on his report card because he didn’t get 100?
Gotcha there.July 20, 2008 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm in reply to: The greatest financial supporter of Torah Jewry in the world #634028
Hakatan, once again I ask you to back up your statements with facts. Is the Israeli gov’t of “macharivei Torah” as bad as the Nazis, the communists, the crusaders, the cossacks, the Romans, etc. etc. etc. in terms of the number of shuls and yeshivas they destroyed? How is it that the number of yeshiva bochurim in Israel now is more than possibly at any time in history? Is the Israeli army short of weapons so that they don’t have enough bombs to blow up all the shuls and yeshivas that you claim they would really like to. Could they not shutter every shul and yeshiva in one day, if they were actually macharivei torah as you describe. What is holding them back?
After a while, one can’t debate you, because you simply have been so force fed a diet of sinas chinam that you can’t see the simple emes that every child sees, that because of the benevolent policies of the Israeli govt, and their constant assistance, they have been partners in a rebirth of Torah learning and the blossoming of the klal and the land to an extent not seen in 2000 years. What actually is the biggest bracha you nebach interpret as a klala. I feel sorry for you, because while my heart is bursting with joy over what the medina has accomplished (of course at the same time mourning the 23,000 kedoshim, who are the soldiers and terror victims), you live your life in a deep depression over all kinds of imagined wrongdoings without any clue as to the gadlus of our nation. This gadlus is the medina’s concern for each yochid (Mrs. Goldwasser), the elderly, our establishment of countless shuls and yeshivas, our building of universities where top level research in physics, chemsitry, biology, and engineering takes place. Our use of this technology to provide a state of the art military, economy, health system and agriculture right smack in the middle of a dessert. The fact that her citizens are for the most part very happy, despite all the hardships.
Let us dance for joy at the RBSH’s gift, and let us daven for continued siyata deshmaya, and may an infectious sense of hakaras hatov and simcha spill over to the nonfrum, as well, so the nation joins together singing and dancing b’ahavah g’murah in a complete teshuvah, and may we see no more tzaros.
The postings of some here that Jews are better than others means that they are baalei gayvah which means that they are worse than others.
We are only better because as posuk says lo merubchem chashak hashem bachem ki atem hameat mikol haamim, and Rashi say memaatim atzmechem. We are anavim who appreciate everything and everybody from all walks of life and from all nations, and show boundless hakaras hatov to all who have helped the world in any way.
Our yashrus comes from anivus, and the feeling that we must always stive to do more for the world. The hasmadah and ethics of our avos remains imprinted in us so that even those who are not frum often accomplish great things as well, in so many areas.
Empty bragging that we are better because we have the Torah is the antithesis of all the Torah represents.July 9, 2008 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm in reply to: The greatest financial supporter of Torah Jewry in the world #634024
We could also add Medinas Yisroel to the list of greatest financial supporters of Torah in the world, as well. They deserve the same hakaras hatov as does the wonderful USA.
I totally disagree that there is anything wrong with frum girls riding bikes or jogging or doing anyting necessary for exercise, if they are dressed properly. The most unhealthy thing in the world is not to exercise. Even the Rambam says so in Hilchos Dayos. Anybody who asurs girls from exercising is a chosid shoteh who thinks that his conception of “tznius” is more important than saving a life.
Men, it is all in your own head. It is up to you to control your own yetzer hara, and not to let your own failures cause you to make women’s lives miserable and unhealthy.
If a man has a problem, then should we asur women from even walking? Maybe not let them outside at all. Maybe go to the burka. There are halachos of what is permissible dress. If these are kept, it is up to the men to do the rest, not to force women to do more because of men’s weakness.
Doesn’t gemara in beginning of Sota say it was normal for men and women to converse in the marketplace? It says that if a man was mekanai his wife, then it is painful for the women because everybody will say mai hai dka bodeles min haanoshim (what is going on with this woman that she stays away from men). The gemara says clearly that it is abnormal for a woman not to be able to converse with men, as long as its not excessive (al tarbeh), but not a normal amount of pleasant everyday menschlach conversation.
Anybody who thinks that meeting an old friend at a wedding and speaking to him and his wife or something similar should be forbidden, is trying to Talibanize our religion of menschlachkeit. I have never seen any outlandish, inapropriate behavior at a wedding between married couples.