July 21, 2008 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #1086139feivelParticipant
could be you are right joseph, not how i recall the Halachah, but im not positive.
such an Eved Hashem as yourself, maybe Yosef?July 22, 2008 8:07 am at 8:07 am #1086140
Yes you have a point. You made it once, twice.July 22, 2008 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1086141
Yes, how dare someone obsess over Shomer Shabbos, eating kosher, or maintaing tzinius?
If thats your view of halacha, the Reform share your philosophy. ALL halachas, tzinius and otherwise, are the responsibility of every Jew, man and woman.July 22, 2008 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1086142who caresMember
tell these “FRUM” stores that just because the sleeve had 5 inches more they don’t have to charge us 5x the price for a shirt. Try looking for tzinius clothing in economical manner, I’ll tell you what turns a lot of people off the “frum” stores that sell the long sleeved tops and not open neck lines feel they can charge what ever they want well not everyone can afford it.July 22, 2008 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1086143
I really hope that comment was sarcastic. If it’s not, perhaps you should get your head checked…July 22, 2008 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1086144
illini, Reenmasheen is on the ball. Only someone of your anti-halacha ilk could think it sarcastic and tell him to get “head checked.” I confidently submit that it is you who needs a physician.July 22, 2008 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1086145
Again, how dare you insinuate that I am anti-halacha. You know nothing of me. You have never met me. And hopefully you never will (for that would I mean I will have met you).
Placing the responsibility of a man’s yetzer on women is completely inappropriate. If men have the yetzer, they must learn to control it. Otherwise, they have accomplished nothing. Forcing others to change their ways to protect your feebleness is no great personal accomplishment; on the contrary, it is a massive personal failure.
That is NOT to say that tznius isn’t important, or that women have no responsibilities in the matter. In fact, they have MOST of the responsibility in that area. But to pin the failings of men who can’t keep their yetzers in check on women is at best medieval, and at worst downright LAZY.July 22, 2008 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1086146charlie brownMember
my wife buys tznius clothes at non-frum stores for a fraction of the price of the frum stores. The drawback is that you need to spend more time going from store to store and looking through racks and racks of non-tzniusdik clothes till you find something, as opposed to going to a frum store where hopefully most of the stuff is ok. But don’t let your financial situation cause you to not dress tzniusdik.
Try Fox’s clothing (foxs.com) , or try the department stores (lord and taylor, macys etc) when they have sales.July 22, 2008 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1086147
You’ve more than made clear with your various comments that if halacha is not to your liking, well by golly, “reform halacha” (without as much so saying.) The “if there is a Rabbinic will, there is a halachic way” attitude.
A woman who violates hilchos tzinius causes men to sin, in addition to the sins she is doing. The Rabbonim have rightfully taken responsibility to insure that women do dress tziniusdikly.July 22, 2008 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1086148
The important thing is that we all help each other reach higher levels of kedusha. And one of the most important barometers of such kedusha, is maintaining the highest degrees of tzinius. And we should all encourage each other to reach such madreigas.July 22, 2008 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1086149
I am always very impressed with how most Chasidim maintain tznius so beautifully. They are impeccably dressed, so tastefully, yet with such tznius.July 22, 2008 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #1086150reenmasheenMember
thanks for backing me up josephf illi is probably just one of those people who follow everything kehalacha but when it comes to other people he just doesnt give a darnJuly 23, 2008 4:28 am at 4:28 am #1086151
to illini07..again you didnt dissappoint us..so you seem to be a ball madreiga and histaklous doesnt affect you… one of the holy tzaddikum of our generation ,not with us anymore, asked one of his chassidim that went to work with public trans., “what about histaklus?” so the chassid said, “me it doesnt affect” so the rebbe said “how many avairous were you over to say it doesnt affect you?” the gemmorah brochous 20a mentions a amoreh that tore off a dress of lady he thought was jewish because wasnt tzuniousdik…according to mr illini07 and others, why didnt he mind his business and control his…anyway, can see most of the less then dass ball habayis “opinions”, according to this gemmorah and plenty others,are am haratzes and ignoring the fact of human fallecies, se erashi “uvedam anovim susoi” breishis 49 posuk 11July 23, 2008 7:12 am at 7:12 am #1086152
And Joseph – I highly recommend you start “reaching higher” by “looking within”, not outside at WOMEN who may or may not be dressing tznius. THAT, sir, is THEIR issue.
YOUR issue is, controlling YOUR eyes, mind & heart – as you encounter women dressed in a way that may cause you to sin – jewish or non-jewish.
Get it? TZNIUS – (in the sense that you’ve been going on and on and on about – namely “women’s tznius”) is a WOMAN’S issue. NOT SINNING thoughts-wise or otherwise – THAT IS WHAT YOU need to concern yourself with (surrounding this issue.)
If YOUR WOMEN don’t dress tznius – wife, children – then you may have some power to influence them.
But to think of taking this topic to a public forum – which isn’t anymore your domain (opportunity to influence) – is ANTI-TZNIUS.
I find it disgusting actually. And I suspect other decent women and men on this forum feel similarly.
GO GROW YOURSELF. Don’t be so busy “helping women grow b’tznius”.July 23, 2008 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1086153
The Reform share the philosophy you espoused. But amongst the Rabbonim, tzinius has and always will be an issue they will publicly address to insure our noshim tzidkonius dress properly and appropriately.July 23, 2008 11:50 am at 11:50 am #1086154
And DONTJUSTFOLLOW – I highly recommend you start “reaching higher” by “looking within”, not outside at people who may or may not be eating pork or violating Shabbos. THAT, ma’am, is THEIR issue.
YOUR issue is, controlling YOUR eyes, mind & heart – as you encounter people doing things in a way that may cause you to sin – jewish or non-jewish.
Get it? KASHRUS & SHMIRAS SHABBOS – (in the sense that you’ve been going on and on and on about) is OTHER’S issue. NOT SINNING thoughts-wise, doing-wise or otherwise – THAT IS WHAT YOU need to concern yourself with (surrounding this issue.)
If YOUR PEOPLE don’t eat kosher or keep Shabbos – spouse, children – then you may have some power to influence them.
But to think of taking this topic to a public forum – which isn’t anymore your domain (opportunity to influence) – is ANTI-KOSHER & ANTI-SHABBOS.
I find it disgusting actually. And I suspect other decent men and women on this forum feel similarly.
GO GROW YOURSELF. Don’t be so busy “helping others grow in Shmiras Shabbos”.July 23, 2008 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #1086157
Kashrus & Shmiras Shabbos – are “universal issues”.
Tznius – while it may affect a man – IMHO – it’s UNtzniusdig for him to address WOMEN on this topic in a public forum. And that is my main point.July 23, 2008 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #1086158
Nobody here is an amorah. Or anywhere close.
And there you go again, calling people who you’ve never met am haaretzes. I am quite aware of human FALLIBILITY. Human fallibility dictates that first and foremost, humans must work on THEMSELVES to restrain their own yetzer.
If a woman is dressed in an untzniusdik fashion, and you truly do everything in your power to control your yetzer, and it REALLY is a case where someone else causes you to sin, do you think that HKBH cannot judge you based on your culpability. Is HKBH a giant calculator with only two buttons, aveirah or mitzvah?
Increasing tznius community-wide is not an inappropriate goal. But it must be done through the right methods. And phrasing it as “we must control our women” is more indicative of the Taliban than it is yiddishkeit.July 24, 2008 5:59 am at 5:59 am #1086159
Your humble opinion (“IMHO”) is just that and nothing more. The Rabbonim, who are far wiser than you, have constantly and consistently bemoaned the appalling lack of tzinius and taken steps to correct it.
P.S. The Rabbonim are [gasp] men.
P.P.S. Tzinius is a halacha from the Torah and thus a “universal issue.” Halachically we are OBLIGATED to advise someone if they are violating ANY halacha if there is even a small possibility they will correct it. This obligation includes a man seeing a woman violating a halacha like tzinius. The only time one is exempt is if they are absolutely certain the tzinius violator will refuse to shape up and follow halacha.July 24, 2008 11:40 am at 11:40 am #1086160shauleMember
i think that was a foolish comment by lgbg its part of the way hashem made the world that a man has a yetzer horo for a women so now we ask all women to please dress in a proper way so our test will be much easier to pass and trust me igbg if you dress properly much less people will be starringJuly 24, 2008 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1086161
to illini07 page 4..”there you go again and.. calling ..” we dont have to meet people to know them, we can dicern plenty by ther writings..you say “nobody here is an amorah” can you explin what you’re trying to refute and how? all of you who are so ball madreigeh and provcative wear dosnt affect you and say nmind your bussines so we braught reyoh otherwise, so what did you refute. your dimyon to taliban is typical of you and like minded, by some the whole taryag is taliban..reminds me of another poster who comlained way back..eqauted with “talibanization”..we have yet to here of ehrliche yidden to compare the torah(which inckludes arebai chelkai shulchen urech to taliban the only ones who did it were you and like minded..see rambanm hilchos yom tov “v’chaiv bes din l’hamid anoshim..” legabay pretzous , the rambam was way before ‘TALIBAN’ …whoever used the term “control our women ..” is take not the right wording. anyway, its a lost case..July 24, 2008 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1086162
to illini07 page4..that you are “quite” aware of human falibilty” (we are content with our spelling), so what, “hamasheh ikor not hadrash”July 24, 2008 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1086163
Why do you refer to yourself as “we?” I never have understood that. Do you have multiple personalities, or are you a conglomerate of various commentors?July 24, 2008 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1086164
why thank you for admitting to my point.
However your wrong, i was in a resteraunt the other night. and i was sitting in the corner and observing the scene. this is what was going on:
there were a couple of tables of men eating there dinner, do to the fact their very clever wives went to the country for the summer(that’s a total different issue in tzniyus), anyway a ‘shikse’ walked in and im not exagerating, every single guy stopped eating and starred at this ‘shikse’.
so shaule i have a question for you: is it this ‘shikse’s’ issue or the mens issue?
dont you think they should heve kept their noses in their plates??
and yes its true the yetzer hora is really strong. but you got to fight it.
just a total side point regarding the issue of leaving men at home in the city:
it use to be around 5-10 years ago, for a woman or a man to go find shmutz they had to go out of their way. now however the tumah is litteraly sticking to us! by one press of a button you have an intire world of tumah! men and women do not have to go far! honestly i dont know why leaving your husband in the city is not band, but atleast niave ladies WAKE UP!!!
and im not trying to sound like a tzdaykus and all, but tzniyus to me is my main priority. so thank you for the insult.July 24, 2008 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #1086165cherrybimParticipant
Everyone has their own weakness. You can’t blame the alcohol for the alcoholic; the casinos for the gambler; tobacco for the smoker; food for the glutton; the mouth for gossip; the way people dress for your perversions; etc.
The Torah is talking to frum people. The Torah says: Don’t try it because you might like it. But accept the responsibility and don’t play the blame game. It’s not going to work after 120.July 24, 2008 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1086166
after reading all four pages at once, I have an intresting observation, what (and why) do people get all worked up about tznius? Talk about increading shabbos and kashrus, shmiras haloshon, everybody is all for it tznius people get upset. Where the yetzer hara is strongest there lies the most potential for kedusha.
Our faliure in tznius is that the main focus is on inches, whic are important, but the idea that tznius is a focus on the neshma and giving ti more importance than the guf is oftern not stated. The other factor which turns a lot of girls off is the all or nothing attitude, they are told if they violate a school tznius rule: “you are not a bas melach”. This all or nothing atitude than fosters a feeling, well if I am not a bas melach than I can wear/do what ever I want. Instead of being negitive we have to build on the posotive, when we see a girl dressed tzniusdig praise her compliment her tell her what a bas melach she looks like.
Another big mistake that parents/schools make is they focus on chumras and style and not on halacha. For example the schools get all upset if a girls wears a long long skirt- till the floor. Personally I think if its not tight its more tzanua and secondly that is not halacha! in halacha one may not wear a short skirt. a long loose fitting skirt might not be the style of a rebbitzen but it is not against halacha and there for should not be assured. When schools start adding on chumars (if you can call it that) the girls end up not keeping the halacha itself. I could give a lot of examples were schools demand the girls keep to a certain style which has no basis in halacha. I have had a lot of experience dealing with girls who have been “tramatized” by school overdoing it.
The ikar is to teach hashkafa and halacha together in home and in school. and not impose our chumras (or style) on others.July 24, 2008 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1086167
illini makes a good point: you can’t blame the women, you have to work on yourself. Hashem doesn’t test us with things we can’t pass. You have the ability to pass every test Hashem gives you. If you would be unable to look away from the woman, then she wouldn’t have walked in! The fact that she did means you have the ability to overcome your instinct. Work on yourself before you work on others.July 24, 2008 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1086168
to illini07..RE:why use “WE” “US”…we mentioned already in other posts way back..WE will try again. dont have the sefer in front so will try to present as WE remeber a chosid passed the town of where the holy reb ahron of karlin resided and thought while we’re here let me learn something from him. As he knocked on reb aron karliners door the rebbe caled out “ver is dort” so the chassid answered “eich” (it is “I”)so the rebbe answered (angrily (?) ) “there is only one “I”, unoichi hashem elok..” (the other unoichi we should remeber ,”v’unoiche ufar v’eifer..so the chssid left and said “es hot zeich geliont..” if you noticed, yiden medakdekin dont say eich (I), but mir..so mir cant bring myself to say “I”, like you say i might still be ball gaiveh but..when mir readen some one posting “I am APPALLED….” “I” “I” “I”..es shtunged fun gaiveh…now onecs or twice..ok .so to say mir every second word doesnt fit in the lauguage…July 24, 2008 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1086169ayin tovParticipant
When I think about tznius it’s not just clothing and dress codes that come to mind.
Drive around B.P. Monsey Flatbush and many other heimishe neighborhoods and look at the size of the homes going up. I alaways wonder, when people sit down with an architect to build a home what do they say. Please design a 10,000 square foot home for me?
The way we live our lives and the cars we drive should also be done tzniusdik.
I know 2 serious gevirim whose homes are simple and the outside and redone very nicely on the inside. They do’t turn heads or poke peoples eyes out. They are alaways involved in local tzedakos go to a daf yomi shiur and dress mentchlach even on a Sunday.
I know other people who lease cars they can’t afford to buy and live well beyond their means and that to me is not tzniusdik.
The worst part about living in such a showy way is that they are raising high maintenance children who can only live a fancy life after they are married as well.
May we all merit to have the menuchas hanefesh to be able to learn and to fargin yenem.July 24, 2008 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #1086170
Do you, per chance, recall how Sarah Umainu acted when Avrohom Avinu had his “guests”?
THAT is the proper definition of tzinius!July 24, 2008 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1086171
Yasher Koach for that maaiseh from Rebbe Aaron HaGadol of Karlin!July 24, 2008 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #1086172
to ayin tov, page 4..that in itself is not assur..where is it gepaskened if one can afford something, one is not allowed to aquire it because the next cant affod it. ain l’dover soif.cant buy expensive dress because the other cant afford, or this type of car because etc etc..de toirah hot nit geassered..adderabeh the toireh said “lo sachmoad”,not “dont buy anything your neighbor cant afford so he shouldnt be jealeous..” But the problem is see ,kli yakor dvorim on “ravv lochem soiv huhor hazeh, penu l’chem tzafonu..” also see sheloh hakodoh last 2 pieces mesachteh suckkoh..hey “i can try”is there any a)oinuas devorim,b)shakker,c) chillil hashem in this post? let me know so we can correct (if your right)July 25, 2008 12:16 am at 12:16 am #1086173
to josef…saw it in sefer “v”zicron l’rishonim..” has collection of memres from kedushas leivy,chiddishei hurim, karliner…but saw and heard it many times. wi’ll try to find it and post name of sefer….so even mir bal gaveh..(i mean “vayigbor libo bdarkai hashem (we hope and try..”, also “vlo yisbayesh mipnay hamaligun..tor, simon alefh) so excuse my arrogance, cant bring myself to write “I”, “I”,”I” (sound like obama,won’t divide jerusalem but leave it up to the 2 parties..and many more,hashem iyishmaraynu, and its not a jokeJuly 25, 2008 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1086174
joseph, I’m not arguing with you about what tznius should be. However, you can’t force it on people. A woman or man must choose for themselves. If it offends you, then avoid it! Hashem wouldn’t have tested you if you couldn’t pass the test. Sarah CHOSE to act the way she did. Her husband and neighbors didn’t force it on her.July 25, 2008 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1086175
Bowzer, you are correct that yeshivos are asuring things that have no problem in halacha. Unfortunately, I just saw a note about the dress code for a yeshiva whose Rosh Yeshiva I admire very much. It said that one is not allowed to use any clips or bobby pins to fasten his yarmulka.
This is a real problem, as it means the yeshiva is focusing on chitzonius and politics, rather than yiras shomayim and ahavas yisroel. This particular yeshiva is known to be one of the most embracing of the chareidi yeshivos. I will gently speak to the Rosh Yeshiva and tell him that this is a problem. Lo dayecha ma sheasra Torah?July 25, 2008 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1086176HEAD IN THE SANDMember
pritzus is goodJuly 25, 2008 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1086177
funny you mention about bobby pins in yarmulkas. my nephew was at my house the other day and asked me for a pin. i asked him for what, he told me to keep his yarmulka on his head. honestly that was never a problem before so i asked my sister why all the sudden he wanted one. she told her son “are you a leader or a follower?”
basically this new bobby pin/clip shtik is some guy decided to bring it in style.
and yes it is wrong for a school to put such a sign up, but maybe this rosh yeshiva wants his talmidim to be leaders and not followers.July 25, 2008 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #1086178
Do you believe you can impose Shmiras Shabbos or eating Kosher?July 27, 2008 3:08 am at 3:08 am #1086179
Lgbg, I will buy your newphew a pack of clips.
Seriously, you raised a valid point in your story about the restaurant. If we insist our women should dress like nuns, then where do you think our men will focus their attention? On the non-Jews.
In fact, dressing attractively is a requirement for Jewish women, as long as it is tzniusdig. The gemara says a father must buy his daughter things that will make the men “jump” on her, meaning want to marry her on the spot.
In addition, there is a halacha in Shulchan Oruch that a wife who doesn’t use the standard makeup and perfumes of the times can be divorced without a kesuvah.
Let us not Talibanize the women in the guise of non-existent halachos. Keep tznius, but at the same time, dress attractively.July 27, 2008 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1086180
the yeshiva would be best off leaving the bobby pin issue aloe, there will always be some fad gong in and than out, better to teach and focus on halacha, which very few institutions do (both boys and girls) than on the lattest fad. when I was in Sem thay told us not to wear “biz ” skits, now any sem would be thrilled if the girls wore such tzniusdig skirts, it’s not worth focusing on the non-halchic issues (especially since the bobby pin keeps the yarmluka in place!)focus on halcha and hashkafa, I have seen this method work over and over again even with severe cases.July 27, 2008 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1086182
Josephf, we don’t impose anything on anybody. See Chazon Ish hilchos shchita. We gently motivate people by showing them the beauty of yiddishkeit. We do not show the beauty of yiddishkeit to somebody by throwing acid in the face of her sister. That is the Taliban religion.July 27, 2008 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #1086183
Any halacha not to your liking is deemed “Talibanization” and “dressing like Nuns” by you.
For the record, a Beis Din may “impose” compliance with halacha on a consistent refuser.July 27, 2008 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1086184
Pashuta yid- I think you are missing an important point- the make up and perfume is between a woman and her husband- not to be worn on the street. Food for thought: At Yerushalmi weddings do you know when the kallah has her make up professionally put on? after the mitzvah tantz!July 27, 2008 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #1086185ujmParticipant
Tznius MUST be enforced by ALL means available as the crime is not victimless. The victims of the purveyors of pritzus are the innocent men in her path. Yes, INNOCENT men who will undoubtable see it unwillingly and to their great constenation. And the farce about the goyim are dressed like that anyway is boneheaded, as people stick to and notice their kind.July 27, 2008 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1086186ujmParticipant
Poshit, You just worry about getting your own wife and daughters dressed appropriately instead of trying to make sure everyone elses wives and daughters are dressed inappropriately for your benefit.July 27, 2008 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #1086187
joseph: no, you can’t impose that. You can say that you won’t have a guest who doesn’t keep Shabbos or kosher, but you can’t force someone to do it. That’s not your test, that’s the person’s test, and they have to do it. You can offer advice, but you can’t force them.July 27, 2008 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #1086188
to pashute yid..page 5..your slipping up again…like the first time we bumped into you and you were comparing dass torah to taliban, talibanization, now say we want our women to dress like nuns afre l’pima ..then complain why other posters have you on the pro freikeit list..look thruout articles you’ll see plenty posters who have that shito on you and those other posters so dont jump on me (not that we care..)now even you would’ve een right, which isnt the case, but just to be medame to taliban, nuns dos alein shows your character… we will try to find your comment way back and link it anyone remember where ?July 28, 2008 1:03 am at 1:03 am #1086189
Jent, Joseph, UJM and others:
Do you agree that throwing acid on people and hitting them on buses is correct or incorrect?July 28, 2008 3:56 am at 3:56 am #1086190
Reb Jent, the gemara Kesuvos says a few places that if too strict with tznius, Lo hinachta bas l’Avraham Avinu.
My point is that I see the frum women dressed just fine where I live, and it isn’t even the most yeshivishe neighborhood. I am having trouble fathoming how there could actually be a major tznius problem in Lakewood, of all places. I have been there a few times, and didn’t see any hint of a problem. So I can only conclude that there is a movement out there to begin Burkification and Nunnification proceedings.
Incidentally, what would be if some people advocated shaving the women’s heads, as do certain Chassidishe groups? Should all women be required to follow suit, even if it is not their minhag? Can we force them? Should the acid/bleach crew be called in to insure compliance?
What do you say, Jent?July 28, 2008 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1086191
whats everyone fighting for? arent we heading into tisha bav?
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