Forum Replies Created
“That i know now that i am in a mixed college more then ever, how wrong and bad it is and how noooo frum person should be in his setting for ANY reason.”
on the market:
If that’s really what you believe, maybe you should switch. Based on the calculations I listed earlier, the monetary difference between different Touro schools is not that great (though it might take longer in a different school and I obviously don’t know your financial situation).
Anyway, since you seem to really be concerned about this, let me just say that I’m guessing the majority of people you’d be interested in wouldn’t have a problem dating someone who went to SCAS. (Though I should say that I’m not entirely sure what you’re looking for; I’ve heard the term learner-earner used, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard it defined.)
Also, I think a lot of frum people wold disagree with you about being in a mixed college setting. For example, BJJ’s founder got a doctorate from Columbia. (I don’t know, but) I would guess that she didn’t think it was such a horrible thing.
If I can weigh in on various comments…
1. Based on the websites, Brooklyn College is just under $3,000 per semester (with fees) while SCAS is close to $6,500. LCW is upwards of $8,000. While I don’t doubt that SOME people get good enough scholarships from Touro to make it the cheaper option, I would think that those people are in the minority. (Very much in the minority.)
2. Assuming that you are not dorming, LCW is not THAT much more expensive than SCAS. But, like you said, it probably will slow you down.
3. I’m sure there are learner/earner guys out there.
4. I’m no expert shadchan or anything like that, but it seems to me that with 7 billion people in the world, you’ve got a match. I think good general advice would be to live your life – in the way you see as proper – and you’ll find someone who fits you. Are there SOME people who will not want to marry you because you went to Touro on 23rd street and not 60th? Probably. But considering that you don’t think there’s anything wrong with 23rd street, do you think that those are the people for you to marry?
5. Why is it that Neturei Karta is allowed to hate Israel but others aren’t?
6. Somebody asked for your major. Depending on your major, it really might make sense to steer clear of Touro.
If by “directly from his words” you mean that you quoted from it, then it’s a false statement.
If you’re paraphrasing, I think a direct quote would be more useful. Thus far in this thread we have quotes from Rav Soloveitchik which were taken out of context (according to cantoresq) as well as (for those who were paying attention) direct quotes which were MISQUOTED.
greatest: You make a lot of assertions. I wonder if you could substantiate them.
“When Rav Soloveitchik writes “as long as one can live without it so much the better for the spirit ” that clearly is him saying stay away from it as much as possible.”
That’s not true. I’m going to paste what I said before. “As long” – unlike “the more” – may well refer to different stages in life. Once one needs to confront secular culture, Rav Soloveitchik’s statement is not limiting the extent.
“o darn it, i didnt want to reply on this thread, thought it would be shtultzy not to. ho hum.”
Not being familiar enough with your jargon, I’m not sure exactly what “shtultzy” means. But if it means that you ignore questions addressed to you because you think it’ll make you look that much cooler, you’ve lost some respect here. (I’m really not sure what it means, though.)
“He also did not send his students to outside colleges, he made his own.”
“And why in the world would anyone consider it a positive thing to spend years learning secular law – and if so for law, why not for MTV trivia?”
See “The Soloveitchik Heritage” where this issue is addressed with regard to Rav Aaron Soloveichik.
“If all knowledge comes from G-d (quote from Dr. Lamm) and therefore is worth pursuing then all knowledge that comes from G-d is worth pursuing – why limit your knowledge to what the colleges teach?”
What knowledge are you talking about (that colleges exclude)?
“Rav Hirsch was talking about Germany during Haskalah. He was right, then. He and his small Kehilla (about 300 members) saved German Jewry.”
I think that’s a gross oversimplification.
“Rav JBS himself wrote that the more one can distance himself from secular culture the better he is for it” – HaKatan
“secular culture entails destructive elements, many negative and perverse aspects; it may be a blessing and a curse simultaneously, and thus as long as one can live without it so much the better for the spirit ” – The Rav
At the risk of being labelled a pedant, I’d like to point out that HaKatan’s assertion does not flow logically from the out-of-context quote of Rav Soloveitchik.
Saying that the Rav felt that “THE MORE” one can distance himself from secular culture the better he is for it implies that secular culture is something which should be shied away from – if one must engage in it, it should be in as limited a capacity as possible.
“As long” – unlike “the more” – may well refer to different stages in life. Once one needs to confront secular culture, Rav Soloveitchik’s statement is not limiting the extent.
“I would define it as followers of the Rav.”
Popa: So, according to you, when did Modern Orthodoxy start?
Evolutionary theory and a literal understanding of Creation need not necessarily conflict. The assumption that some apes evolved into humans does not preclude Adam from being formed from Earth. Does it?
That’s a fair – and not necessarily easily answered – question. If, as I assume, you’re asking that because you’d like proof that R. Soloveitchik didn’t start Modern Orthododxy, I’d like to quote you something from the Wikipedia page on Hebrew Theological College:
“It [HTC} was founded in 1922 as a Modern Orthodox Jewish institution of higher education in America…”
In 1922, R. Soloveitchik was a teenager, (living in Europe).
If you were to believe that apes were akin to dirt, that might explain it, somewhat. No?
1. R. Soloveitchik was not the founder of Modern Orthodoxy.
2. I wonder if you could give some context on that quote.
3. You paraphrase and say “and that the reason for creating this new MO movement was that he (incorrectly) feared that traditional Orthodoxy would become a museum piece and couldn’t exist in the new America.” I wonder where you get this from. I doubt its accuracy.
“[N]o one disputes that a person who has a future in Tora, whether as a ram, rosh yeshiva or rav should learn full-time all his life.”
(If by “learn full-time,” you mean “not engage in any secular studies,”) I don’t think this is true.
“We don’t darshen mishnayos by ourselves.”
“Through toil at both of them” seems to be the pashut pshat in the mishna. (Artscroll writes it without citing anyone.)
Also, I realize that those who opposed the Mussar movement did not do so due to an aversion to good midos. Considering “yigias,” if it’s referring to derech eretz, it’s referring to studying derech eretz, no?
By the way, I’m familiar with the interpetation of “derech eretz” as “proper manners.” I was under the impression that that was a minority opinion among the commentators. (I guess I can look into that.) I suppose all
Follow-up question: According to those who interpret “derech eretz” as “proper manners,” it’s kind of hard to oppose the study of mussar, isn’t it?
yitayningwut: The next words in the mishna are “sheyigias shnayhem” – “throught toil at both of them.” It seems like it’s referring to some sort of exertion. Which seems to imply an understanding similar to that of Abelleh.
1. How I read the mishna is a fair question. (The reason I didn’t answer it is because it seems that the mishna could easily be read to be specifically speaking out against kollel.)
2. With regard to your friend, I’m guessing (pure conjecture, here) that Dr. Lamm would have suggested that he attend (a school like) YU where he could receive education in Torah and Madda.
3. “Do you think yafeh torah im derech eretz means to work 50 hours a week and learn 5?” If, as I seem to recall, most commentators read the “derech eretz” of the mishna as livelihood/culture (not the minority opinion of good manners), then yes, I think your 50:5 derech eretz:torah ratio (for a layman) is easier to defend than advocacy of a 0:infinity one.
4. As to how I read the mishna, I think it is saying essentially the following “It’s good to learn Torah and to engage in livelihood, because your time will be gainfully spent, averting you from sin (because your schedule will be full [depriving you of time in which to sin] or perhaps because you will be emotionally fulfilled, having done numerous positive things with your time).”
I don’t think it “fell apart and closed down in the middle of the year.” I think they got rid of one class (last year’s 9th).
First: Let us assume I have no proof whatsoever. Why should your unproven claim be believed more than mine?
Second: “Rabbi, Dr. Lander A’H, is the one whom instituted all policies in any Touro school. These are all acc. to Halacha.”
“What you think he [Dr. Lander] okayed it? Secondly, even if he did, does that mean he knew what he was going to speak on?
I said policies, not speeches.”
According to you his policy was to allow speeches about any topics?
I’m going to repeat again that what was discussed on the first page of this thread was not motzi shem ra.
“He did and thats “a fact, not an insult”!”
I know I asked you earlier in this post to substantiate this claim, but it’s coming up again so: How do you know this?
By the way, why did you refer to Rabbi Tendler as “Professor” Tendler? Also, it’s interesting that you think that one quote from somebody whose work is widely-available and can be found online indicates that somebody is a student in his university.
(I don’t mean to attack you, at least in this paragraph. I’m just wondering)If I quoted, say, Rabbi Belsky, would you assume I learned at Torah Vodaath? If I quoted Rav Elyashiv, would you assume I learned with him?
“”3. Why do you think I am bitter at Touro?”
Safe to say – because why else do you feel the need to keep putting them down?!?”
I think if you were to read the various things I’ve written in this thread, you’d see that I don’t keep putting Touro down. I get irked, at times, when people speak inaccurately and feel the need to correct misconceptions.
I’m not a halachist, so I might be wrong, but I don’t think that any of your examples of “sanctioned violations of Halacha” are actually violations of halacha. And, with regard to your third example, even if it is against halacha, blaming an institution for the misdeeds of one person seems remarkably unfair.
Health: I guess you have the right to be insulted by whatever you want, but the facts remain: I didn’t call you a liar, I said you lied. (Yes, there is a difference.) And, that’s not an insult; it’s a fact.
You’ve claimed around a dozen times on this thread (by my estimate) that people have said motzi shem ra (in the thread) about Touro. I searched through this thread (when I condemned you for lying) and I couldn’t find one instance of this. Ergo, I’m convinced that you lied.
With regard to the second lie you said, it’s false that Dr. Lander “instituted all policies in any Touro school.”
Also, I’ve got a few questions for you?
1. Why do you think I have ga’ava?
2. Why do you think I attend YU?
3. Why do you think I am bitter at Touro?
HaKatan: I don’t know how much involvement he had at various campuses (I would assume that each campus is basically run by people on campus, but who knows for sure), but I’m quite certain that he didn’t “institute all policies” in any Touro school. And my guess is that, no, Richard Joel doesn’t call the shots at Torah MiTzion Kollels.
Rav Daniel Lander is a person who is currently chancellor of Touro. Dr. Bernard Lander was a different person who used to be president of Touro. I’m not sure what this resolves.
Lashon Hara is an aveirah, true enough. I was responding to Health accusing me of motzi shem ra, which was an inaccurate claim. I think my offending statement was “ut, now that you mention it, there probably have been violations of halacha at Touro.” I’m not sure if this is lashon hara; maybe it is. Maybe I shouldn’t have said it.
Health: Let me attempt to address your various points.
I didn’t call you a liar, I said you lied. And (to paraphrase Rabbi M.D. Tendler) that’s NOT an insult; it’s a fact.
I’m not calling false statements lies because I haven’t seen proof that they are true. I’m calling them lies because I (personally) know they’re lies.
I’m glad they’re closed Shabbos and Yom Tov, and I’m glad you went there as a student…um, yeah, I don’t think the post-Lander administration has changed those things.
Dr. Lander is now 96 or so years old and dead for nearly 2 years. The idea that he “instituted all policies in any Touro school” – some 30 schools, at least one of which did not belong to Touro in his lifetime – is, I think, hard to believe.
No, for the most part, Touro policy is not dictated by me.
Also, for something to be motzi shem ra, I believe it has to be false.
Health: When I asked you about acting civilly, I was referring to things like calling someone you don’t know an “am ha’aretz.” When I said “stop lying”, I was not denigrating you on a personal level, but pointing out the fact that things which you type are factually inaccurate.
I can call something false if I know it to be false – even if I don’t want to explain it online. Why don’t you prove that it’s true?
“The school follows all policies he instituted even though he isn’t alive.”
Such as? And how do you know?
HaKatan: I didn’t claim that there were any violations of halacha at Touro. When I wrote “blatantly false” I could have been referring to (and I think I was – I’m not sure if I remember correctly) the assertion that Dr. Lander instituted all policies in any Touro school. But, now that you mention it, there probably have been violations of halacha at Touro.
Also, you’re correct: I’m not sure why Dr. Lander is relevant; if someone wants to explain it to me, that’d be great.
I haven’t posted in a while on this thread, so I may have some comments bottled up inside of me.
1. Health: Why can’t you attempt to be more civil?
2. Health: Please stop lying.
A. As far as I can recall, nobody here said any motzi shem ra about Touro. The fact that you find something mildly offensive doesn’t mean that it’s motzi shem ra. I know you accused various posters – I was first – of spouting motzi shem ra, but the accuracy of your statements is not commensurate with the amounts of times you say them.
B. You say “Rabbi, Dr. Lander A’H, is the one whom instituted all policies in any Touro school. These are all acc. to Halacha. The school carries on his tradition to this day.”
First, this is blatantly false. Second, as he is no longer president, I’m not sure why he’s relevant. You say that “[t]he school carries on his tradition to this day”, but I’m not sure what that means.
Health: I may be reading too much between the lines here, but it seems that you somehow got the impression that I hate Touro. Um…I hate to say this, but pointing out the fact that your attempts at defending the honor of Touro are rather pitiful is not equivalent to hating Touro. Whether I love Touro or hate it is not really something you could know from my postings here.
“I read either online or in the papers how the Rabbi??, Doctor, chief of YU said that!”
A quote out of context is not worth all that much. You, unfortunately, didn’t even give us a quote. A paraphrase out of context is REALLY not worth all that much.
“Perhaps, if I did -it would reveal which program I went to or had something to do with. As it is I’ve revealed too much info here about myself for the stalkers to gather!”
I’m pretty sure that all of Touro’s programs have had many dozens of students – mentioning which one you went to or had something to do with will hardly incriminate you. Certainly if this program, as you say, was SO popular that they had to limit the number of entrants to it, you will not be incriminating yourself.
Health: “one of Touro’s programs had the best reputation in the whole nation and they had to start testing to eliminate people applying to the program.”
I don’t like calling people liars unless I am certain they are lying, but let me just say that I absolutely don’t believe that that statement is true. Sorry; I’m not buying it. And somehow I doubt that telling us which program you heard something about will be akin to giving out too much personal information.
“The President of YU has openly declared that MO is different than orthodoxy.” What are you talking about?
“I’m not interested in getting into a bash YU party.”
What a pity. I feel so bad that people forced you to do what you didn’t want to do.
Health: At the risk of arguing with Popa, I’d like to suggest that it is actually impossible to prove which school is better. (Certainly, US News didn’t do it.)
Somebody asked which school to go to. I replied with some relevant comments which I believe to be true. (Perhaps due to my apparently lacking command of Jewish law,) I don’t understand how that is motzi shem ra. Maybe you can explain it.
Health: I didn’t say that I have no experience with either school – I said “Not having been a student in both.” I meant that I have not attended both institutions, not that I have not attended either one of them. Regardless, considereing discussions I’ve had with people in both institutions, my opinions are something more than “uneducated guesses.”
By the way, I didn’t denigrate Touro. I merely said that, to my understanding, YU is a stronger academic institution. If I say that the GRA was a greater Talmid Chochom (to my understanding) than R. Chaim Volozhin, is that denigration?
If I may, why do you love Touro so much?
By the way, when I declared Health wrong on both counts, I was referring to his guesses about me, not about the schools.
For whatever it’s worth, in my opinion, it’s unreasonable to think that you can determine the respect that one individual has for another by looking at the way in which he refers to him.
Obviously, if I refer to somebody as “Harav Hagaon XYZ” or “that bum, Finkelstein” this would not apply. But most instances of reference to individuals are not that blatant. Confidence in your ability to read somebody else’s (Rabbi Dr. Lamm’s) mind is a display of unwarranted haughtiness.
Health: Thanks for making inferences from my comments which were neither stated nor implied.
I didn’t say that YU’s better in every single major, and I didn’t say that it’s “sooo much better than Touro”.
And for whatever it’s worth, you’re wrong on both guesses.
Not having been a student in both of the institutions under discussion, let me just point out that I believe that the assertions that Touro is as good academically as YU and that their degrees are equally respected are false. I don’t have proof. But I believe that YU is considered to be, and is, a stronger academic institution.
Popa: If R. Lamm says something which “we can all agree to” why is it a matter of controversy?
I’m pretty sure I remember reading that he did step foot in YU.
Rasha Gamur: What do you think he meant by “secular knowledge?”
Dr. Seuss: I assumed your translation was correct. I was referring to your summary – “Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT”L said it is preferable to be physically murdered by the Nazi’s ym”s than to be “saved” by Yeshiva University and face the spiritual destruction there.”
He doesn’t say it’s better to be murdered than to face spiritual destruction, he discusses SAKANA of death. I don’t think he expected the murder that came about to actually come about (though, obviously, there was a sakana).
Dr. Seuss: That was a very liberal (i.e. inaccurate) summary of R. Wasserman’s letter.
Dr. Seuss: 1. Where does he say that?
2. Bais Shammai says to light 8 candles on the first night of Chanukah.
I just want to point out that in the quote from Rav Soloveitchik, he in no way states or implies that he ever attempted “to water down” Orthodoxy.