Eating Gebroks on Pesach

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  • #1486514

    laskern
    Participant

    I have a custom based on the Chacham Tzvi, Vilna Gaon as substantiated by his son and the Chasam Sofer to eat gebroks on Pesach.

    • This topic was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Y.W. Editor.
    • This topic was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.

    #1486546

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Eating gebroks is NOT a custom, it’s the halacha. Non-gebroks is the minhag, and it’s relatively new. Its a Chassishe minhag, apparently started by Dov Ber of Mezrevitch around 1800.
    Can anyone prove that today’s razor thin matzos have kernels of unbakec flour that can rise? Has anyome seem a proven case ( not an anecdote they heard fro somebody who heard from somenody?)

    #1486560

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky didn’t eat gebroks.

    #1486562

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    My paternal side is Litvak, we eat Gebrokts. My maternal side are Yekkes, they also ate them.
    A couple of my sons in law do not eat them, they get a different menu at our house during Pesach, as do their children. My daughters still eat Gebrokts in our home during Pesach. Since they are all here for the entire holiday they have never made Pesach in their own homes. This point was discussed/negotiated before they agreed to marriage. Our Rav agreed that they could still follow my customs when eating in my home. At some time in the future sould they make Pesach in their own homes, they’ll follow the husbands’ traditions.

    #1486585

    Toi
    Participant

    @Joseph- isn’t that due to a famous maaseh where he said that for some reason and didn’t want any chashash of sheker, so didn’t eat it in the future? I assume his real minhag was to eat.

    #1486589

    TheMir
    Participant

    See long shaarei teshuva siman tod samech. In a nutshell, they used to make matzo meal from thick Matzoh which had a real chance of not baking thru as the producers were in a rush. However ours is made of same thin matzos that we eat with the same neglible risk of chametz. So its a minhag based on historical risk. Which should not impede on simchas yom tov. However those who are stribgent should not be chastised.

    #1486614

    Joseph
    Participant

    @toi I think the maaisa was his second wife didn’t know his original minhag to not eat gebroks so she cooked gebroks for the first Pesach after their marriage. So he was quickly mattir neder while she was in the kitchen so he could eat gebroks rather than embarrass her by letting her know her mistake.

    #1486619

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky didn’t eat gebroks.

    And you know full well that that actually had nothing to do with the concerns upon with the minhag was founded.

    The Wolf

    #1486657

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Joseph: You are confusing the gebrokts story with the syory about the second rebbetizin not knowing his minhag not to eat cheese on erev shabbos and she made a milchigs kiddush on Shavuous for which he was matter neder so he could eat the cheese.

    Wolf: His family minhag was and is to eat gebrokts. He personally did not as he one time did not want to eat in someone’s house and stated he did not eat gebrokts.

    Both of these incidents are mentioned in the biography published by AttScroll.

    #1486669

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf: His family minhag was and is to eat gebrokts. He personally did not as he one time did not want to eat in someone’s house and stated he did not eat gebrokts.

    Yes, I know. That was my point. He wasn’t avoiding gebrokts for the fear of uncooked flour. His opinion was that there is nothing wrong with eating gebrokts, as his family ate it. Joseph’s leaving that fact out makes it sound like he held that gebrokts is a problem, when, in fact, his opinion was the exact opposite.

    The Wolf

    #1486675

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Bottom line: I plan to eat gebrokts this Pesach and every subsequent one. If you think that means that I’m eating chometz on Pesach… well, so be it.

    The Wolf

    #1486683

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Rav gifter ate gebrokts and machine matzoh

    #1486708

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Wolf: sorry, I misread your comment. I thought you were asking a question, not making a definitive statement. I too eat gebrokts.

    #1486731

    Avi K
    Participant

    The reason why Rav Yaakov did not eat gebrokts was that he said it to avoid eating by someone whose kashrut level was not good. However, the Gaon said that anyone who refrains from eating it will have to give an account as to why he did not do the mitzva of simchat Yom Tov. Some say that there is no reason for this minhag with machine matzot as there is no problem of under-baking. Interestingly, some in Chul only refrain from it on the first seven days and eat it on the eighth to show that they do not consider it to be chametz. On the other hand, someone told me that he has a cousin who is such a big Mitnagged he eats it every day EXCEPT the eighth.

    #1486737

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    TheMir, interestingly the Baal Hatanya basically says the opposite of what you’re saying. I.e. the thick matzos were cooked and kneaded thoroughly, but today’s matzos are cooked in a super hot oven for only like 20 seconds. This is why, in his opinion, it was OK to eat gebrochts for hundreds of years and now it isn’t.

    Matzah meal is the grossest substance known to man. Gebrochts evaders are not missing anything.

    #1486744

    laskern
    Participant

    The Chidah says that we have to show that this is only a stringency and not a prohibition by eating it on the last day.

    #1486754

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Everyone with the custom is lenient on the eighth day.

    I’ve never understood the simchas Yom Tov argument. I feel like they probably enjoy their Pesach more having an excuse not to shove their neighbor’s disgusting matzah-meal cake down their throat out of politeness.

    #1486756

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    The Gemara in Pesachin (41a) says straight out that you can fulfill the mitzvah of eating matzah using matzos that were soaked in water.
    The Raavan, a rishon, states that some people refrained from dipping matzah into soup on the first night of Pesach. He says it’s NOT because they were concerned it would become chometz. It was so the taste of matzah wouldn’t be changed, and they wanted the taste to stay in their mouths all night.
    The main source of the minhag today is from R’ Shneur Zalman Liadi, who held that since they changed the method of making matzos, by greatly shortening the time, it wasn’t kneaded as well, and some flour remained on the top of the matzos, that wasn’t kneaded into the dough. This is against what Rashi and the Rambam say, that flour which was heated in an oven can’t become chometz. There are others who disagree with them as well. R’ Shneur Zalman, when discussing the minhag of gebrokts, says the halachah is like Rashi and the Rambam, but since the Arizal said to be extra stringent on Pesach, we should take the other opinions into account, and be stringent.

    #1486765

    laskern
    Participant

    I can attribute the simchas yom tov argument to a tosafes in betza where tosfas says that when it comes to covering the blood there is still a oral prohibition but because of simchas yom tov they permitted it. You can differentiate maybe between meat and gebroks, but I can tell you that I rather it an empty soup than those noodles which are not that healthy full of cholesterol.

    #1487705

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Our family eats gebroks.

    Our family eats kitniyot.

    We “mish” on Pesach.

    Now I know why Joseph considers me “liberal.”

    #1487755

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Avi K. your friend’s cousin maybe someone I know in Manchester. Someone in Manchester told me he eats gebroks everyday of pesach for oneg yom tov. Except Acharon shel pesach because that’s when the chassidim eat gebroks, and he doesn’t want anyone to be choshed him of being a chosid. The problem is when like this year, acharon shel pesach is on Shabbos. You can’t make kneidlach on Shabbos, and of course they wouldn’t make them before shabbos. If you have them people may think you’re chassidish, if you don’t it’s a lack of oneg yomtov. I left him to ponder the matter…

    #1487777

    Joseph
    Participant

    takah, your gebroks and mishing can be forgiven. But not your kitniyos.

    #1487790

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Geordie613

    Why can’t you make it before Shabbos?

    #1487809

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Yitzchokm, Because according to their minhag you can’t wet matza in the first 7 days of pesach.

    #1487808

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Of course, what’s most interesting about Joseph’s post is that he takes an incident that should be a wonderful lesson on the power and importance of Emes (that, to preserve his statement as truthful, he voluntarily avoided gebrokts the rest of his life) and, by leaving out the most important part of the story, he gives the impression that R. Yaakov held the exact opposite of what he did, he perverts that powerful message. He lies by omission about a wonderful story highlighting the importance of Emes.

    The Wolf

    #1487807

    laskern
    Participant

    There are people who will eat it and they might come to visit you. You also have aruvei tavshilin. If it is a problem about the dishes not being a year old, you can set aside dishes for this purpose.

    #1487867

    Avi K
    Participant

    Geordie, as I live in Israel I can eat bread on that Shabbat. I just have to find a non-Jew who will hold it in his freezer until then and give it to me.

    #1487879

    Joseph
    Participant

    Wolf, you’re wrong. iac said I conflated the story about Rav Yaakov and gebrochs with another story about Rav Yaakov.

    #1487998

    yitzchokm
    Participant

    Geordie613
    Good point

    #1488098

    GAON
    Participant

    “Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky didn’t eat gebroks.”

    Joseph,
    You know why – you aware of the story behind …?

    #1488102

    GAON
    Participant

    J,
    “takah, your gebroks and mishing can be forgiven. But not your kitniyos.”

    How do you know he/she is not Sephardi?

    #1488131

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon, he’s not Sephardic.

    #1488162

    GAON
    Participant

    less,
    “Can anyone prove that today’s razor thin matzos have kernels of unbakec flour that can rise? Has anyome seem a proven case”

    Actually there was a case a couple of years ago they put in Ads all over, about Matzohs that was imported from Ukraine (I think) that had flour on top and that all should be careful not to gebruck..(Note -although that too I recall is sort of a chumrah as well, it is only the flour from inside that we are afraid of..the one on top once its baked is not the same issue.)

    See below link for an excellent write up how it came about etc.

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=13595&st=&pgnum=134

    #1488284

    GAON
    Participant

    Joseph,
    If that is the case then Kitniyot is indeed problem, unless he lives in Israel and follows Rabbi’s like R David Bar-Hayim who permit it…

    Reminds me, a Sphardi once told me regarding eating Kitniyot, “if you want to eat Kitniyot like us then you need to get up the entire Elul for Selichot…you can’t have both.

    #1488314

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Gaon, A sefardi once said to me, “We eat rice on pesach and meat in the nine days, of course we have to say slichot for a month!!”

    #1488507

    laskern
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer says that the Ashkenazim follow the RMA based on the pasuk ובני ישראל יצאים ביד רמה and sefardim use the pasuk לכו אל יוסף כל אשר יאמר לכם תעשו.

    #1488512

    GAON
    Participant

    G,

    “Because according to their minhag you can’t wet matza in the first 7 days of pesach.”

    The mainstream minhag i think is to be machmir not to eat it but you can still keep the mixing. I think it gets cooked before shabbos …

    See below link that many have the minhag to allow children to eat Gebroks.
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=13595&st=&pgnum=145

    #1489083

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Wolf, I probably shouldn’t get involved because you’re clearly on the warpath, but I don’t really see what was so illegitimate about bringing in Yaakov Kaminetzky. The OP basically asserted that anyone non-Chassidishe Ashkenaz should eat gebrochts. Bringing in an exception is fair game. The fact that he did so by his own choice rather than for a standing minhag seems to make it even fairer game. I must be missing something here.

    #1489190

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Neville, this was Wolf’s point. Rav Kaminetzky stopped eating gebroks because he was looking to turn down a meal invitation without embarrassing the host. It had nothing to do with wetting the matzah. Stating that Rav Kaminetzky didn’t eat gebroks, without giving the reason, Joseph was deceptively implying it was because of issues he had with gebroks

    #1489226

    Joseph
    Participant

    LC, please brush up on your reading comprehension.

    #1489279

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Gaon, my cousins who don’t eat gebrokt, are VERY VERY strict about it. (My mother is from Chassidish stock, although her father was brought up in Berlin). NO matza gets wet until Rabaini Tam on acharon shel paisich ba nacht.

    #1489550

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Joseph, my comprehension is fine. You said Rav Kaminetsky didn’t eat gebroks. Period. Anyone who didn’t know the actual reason would naturally think it was because he was against gebroks itself. That’s why what you did was misleading at best and deceitful at worst

    #1489594

    GAON
    Participant

    G,

    That is a real far fetched Chumrah. If you read the link I posted, the Apter Rav known as the Mechaber ‘Ohev Yisrael’ allowed kids to eat Gebroks…Anyways, as it says each has their own minhagim..

    #1489621

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gaon: What Geordie described his cousins vis-a-vis gebrochs is how the vast majority of those who don’t eat gebrochs hold this minhag,

    #1489671

    GAON
    Participant

    ” the vast majority of those who don’t eat gebrochs hold this minhag,”

    How did you define “majority”? Did you take a poll? I know many who are only makpid “eating and nothing else. Which makes sense as it is only a far fetched chumrah.

    Did you read the link I posted, quoting Kinyan Torah that all Poland were not makpid for children..

    #1489717

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Lesschumras: Thank you for explaining that. I had heard the story (incorrectly I guess) in the past about him never eating soup again for the rest of his life. I didn’t realize it was actually gebrochts.

    #1490577

    joe
    Participant

    Btw

    Bringing a proof from the Gemara is not relevant in this case as the reason not to eat gebrochs is because we make the matza differently then they used to make ( like a laffa), because we make it so quick and dry there is a possibility that the water and flower where not fully mixed together and when the flower will context water it will rise.

    #1490572

    Geordie613
    Participant

    It may be a “far fetched chumrah” but people are very makpid on it nowadays. I don’t remember how it was in Poland as I was only born in 1975. But hanach lohem leyisroel, im lo nevi’im, benei nevi’im, (or something like that.)
    There is another far fetched scenario of carrying a shofar in reshus harabim, which has stopped us blowing shofar on shabbos for a long long time…

    #1490766

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Geordie613, you justify non gebrochts based upon circumstances having been changed. Well, what about kitniyos? The circumstances that lead to kitniyos are largely no longer applicable. So, under your rationale, we should be able to eat most kitniyos today.

    #1491454

    Geordie613
    Participant

    lesschumras,
    “Geordie613, you justify non gebrochts based upon circumstances having been changed”

    WHAT? Where and when did I justify that?

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