aries, DY, if the supply is the girl who signed the contract and is in fact prepared to pay the bucks, then the shadchan should not be hung up with the boy who does not necessarily have to sign a contract. She is chasing down the boys. They are in demand. So your little scenario is a false pretense and totally inaccurate.
Okay, you got me on a technicality, but the scenario would be equally ludicrous if the conversation was with the girls' parents.
Doswin,
Thanks. It's very nice to see someone being fair even if they have a different opinion.
Are you DYs alter ego?
"DY's point is that even if every single Jewish boy in the world would get married, there will still be Jewish girls left over for no one to marry."
I think you meant to say there will still be jewish girls left over with no one to marry, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Why don't we ask her what she advocated instead of assuming.
DY: WADR to BTguy, I believe his main issue is that we should not be manipulating the system at all. Assuming shaddchonim (and others proposing shidduchim) have the best interests of the couple in mind, the shaddchan proposes what he/she thinks is the best shidduch. To pay out so that the second best shidduch is proposed does sound wrong.
BSD, DY. "I think a Lexus is overpriced, so I drive a Ford. But I'm not upset at Lexus."
Great analogy except I would compare it to a Honda Accord. Lexus implies overindulgence while Honda represents respectability - as apposed to trying to do things yishivish in order to save money at the expense of being effective and accomplishing the objective.
Except that I drive a Mustang. ;)
Seriously, I agree with you, but I used Lexus to illustrate that even the opponents of this program, who consider it a waste of money, are expressing their opinion about how other people should or should not spend their money. They do not need to join.
apushatayid, Why don't we ask her what she advocated instead of assuming.
Because she already told us. It's not an assumption.
gavra_at_work, DY: WADR to BTguy, I believe his main issue is that we should not be manipulating the system at all. Assuming shaddchonim (and others proposing shidduchim) have the best interests of the couple in mind, the shaddchan proposes what he/she thinks is the best shidduch. To pay out so that the second best shidduch is proposed does sound wrong.
Then he should say so. This would actually be the strongest argument against closing the age gap. However, why do you assume that a closer in age girl is second best? In many respects, she's better. If a particular boy feels needs a younger girl, nobody's forcing him to go out with an older one.
As far as "manipulating the system", it sounds evil, especially when some people call it "social engineering", but if the benefits outweigh the disadvantages, (and as I wrote, it won't cause inferior shidduchim) what's really the problem? This possible hashkafah issue is best left to our gedolim, and we know where they stand.
Hefker socializing? Where is that said, except in your response?
To everyone what is every bodys problem with NASI .If they set it up right and the money is protected ,show me 1 girl that gets engaged thru them that wont be happy.Trust me i am a shadchan when amotherof a 29 year old girl calls me ,i feel terrible because parents are burned out ,they heard almost every name ever created and the parents dont know at this point what their daughter is looking for.The same problem is with the boys.So please respect this org. and give them a chance to prove themselves to us that they mean buisness and chesed for older girls and telling us shadchanim to work on the older girls and not look for the easy way out.
apushatayid,
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-youve-read-nasi-project-responds-have-you-changed-your-mind/page/4#post-321105
“The drastic measures you mention could be as simple as NOT teaching our children from Day One that it is so assur and untsniusdig to talk to the opposite gender, that they must always be segregated from each other, rather than having mixed properly supervised events where they can meet and socialize.”
I call that hefker, although she agrees that it should be “supervised”, because there’s no specific shidduch in mind.
Here she illustrates her guidelines for “supervision”:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/if-youve-read-nasi-project-responds-have-you-changed-your-mind/page/4#post-321428
“It was not until the recent decades that it suddenly became fashionably ossur for girls and boys to have a normal conversation together, whether after Shul, in a pizza place, waiting for a bus, IN COLLEGE,etc. or to play together as children, to sit at a Shabbos table and talk.”
I doubt there’s much supervision at the bus stop and pizza shop.
There is a recurring theme here in which shadchanim (and I'm not referring to all the well meaning individuals that "keep everyone in mind" and avg 1 shidduch every 22.5 years) and older singles- at least those who post here-are pro this system , while the misnagdim are people on the outside who don't have a clue of what these girls are going through. I apologies for being redundantly repetitive , but it's very telling.
DY, I hear your point, but if I am not mistaken, NASI adds about a thousand dollars for each year. In essence they are making it a commodities market when a 22 year old is charged a thousand more than a 21 year old. AND, the shadchanim are saying it takes more work??? I am sorry, but I think this is a big mistake and a disgrace.
I offer the following solution.
1. If a shadchen thinks a good match is 22 or 23, the family of the boy should not embarrass itself by saying they are only interested in a 21 year old. If that is what the family wants, then the BOYS family pays that surcharge. You do not charge our 22 year old girls an extra grand over the 21 year olds. How shallow!
I think someone at NASI had an idea to respond to the age thing being top priority, but they made a big mistake in going with it.
Actually, NASI is just reacting to a problem where age, by a matter of even a year, is the most valued trait. Its like they are telling our girls they can't move them on the open market so they have to pay a surcharge. Again, make the boys family pay the surcharge if they place top priority on age as a compatibility variable, and we will see what a game changing idea this is.
BT: Their point is that the boys side will simply refuse to pay. And since the boys hold all the cards, they can refuse to pay and you can't do anything about it. Since the girls need the boys more than the boys need the girls. The boy can always find another girl, whereas (due to supply and demand) the girl will not always be able to find another boy. Since there aren't enough boys for all the girls.
Doswin: Exactly why I find it a disgrace that the attitudes have not changed. A wrong attitude leads to wrong actions. No? In fact, NASI may be starting a trend in the wrong direction that will further create and "shidduch crisis".
A few leaders have spoken out, but I guess we will see what happens. Again, I am very embarrassed that our approach to building families has sunk to such a terrible level, which some may try to justify by saying that is what the boys want. When approaching such a critical area of Jewish life (marriage and family), an outlook like this kind of makes you wonder about the quality of learning and, more importantly, it's effect on the individual.
In the long run, a boy who insists on age as the critical "character trait" is doing a favor to the older girl (and we are talking about a matter of a year) because such a view/decision right from the start, is the beginning of sharing a life with a boy/man who is exposed to the Holy Torah, and comes out the other end superficial. What's going on?
To bring this to real terms: If you or I are offered to date someone the shadchen thinks is good for us and that girl happens to be 22, and we decline and say we are only interested in a 21 year old, then I have no respect for that at all.
And if us guys show so much lack of derech eretz for what the Shadchen suggests, to where we create a trend that results in imposing a thousand dollar charge on the girls, per year, to me, that is a huge chilul Hashem and not good for Klal Yisrael. NASI should not play into that as they may create a new, bad standard.
If you have access to the "Five Towns Jewish Times," read the letter to the Editor from someone who calls herself "Brooklyn Girl." She wrote a wonderful and articulate piece about why this whole Nasi Project is giving so many of us a collective bad taste in our mouths, and made many excellent points that I myself never had considered.
I doubt there’s much supervision at the bus stop and pizza shop. "
Very PUBLIC places, DY. I doubt a truly frum boy or girl would be likely to get into trouble under those circumstances. And if they WERE, then it could and would happen anywhere, unless they were kept in isolation from each other. We have to start trusting our young adults to behave with the proper derech in which we have raised them. Not talking to each other until they are redt a shidduch, is NOT making them frummer or better Jews (though I suppose you would disagree, and that's fine, because you have your opinion and I have mine). I believe that over the last couple of decades this has in fact hampered many young people in their ability to grow up socially normally.
I understand that this is Yeshivishe way, and I can respect that philosophy, while absolutely disagreeing with its efficacy. We DO have a shidduch crisis today, and it is not IMO because of an age gap. It is because by the time people wake up and realize that they have grown much older while waiting for the right shidduch to finally be redt to them, they have missed the opportunity to meet people, possibly on their own, because it is "just not done that way."
Quickly, before Shabbos:
BTGuy, I don't fully understand your post, so forgive me if I got you wrong, but it seems that you agree that the shadchanim should suggest older girls, and the boys are wrong for turning down such suggestions. This NASI initiative motivates the shadchan to redt the older girls, which they otherwise would not have (because it's more time consuming), and it only works for the boys who would agree to go out with an older girl. you numbers are slightly off (the program starts at 22) but the idea is that more motivation is needed to redt the 24 year old than the 22 year old.
It is sad that we cannot respect our young people enough to trust them to have a decent conversation in a public place, what is wrong with a shul kiddush or a communal shabbaton?
Yes I am writing from a MO perspective, but my sons attend charedi yeshiva in EY where the behaviour of those from "stricter "backgrounds has surprised me. We are officially told no internet is allowed, so my son would not take a laptop or blackberry, we are told not to chat to girls in the street so my kid has developed a polite " smile, nod and walk on " to girls who recognise him and say hello. His friends however have internet connections, have asked him for introductions to those girls he says hello to, ( relatives and old family friends!) and have shown a remarkable ability to flout the system they are all so well aquaintainted with. It has been a real eye opener!
Oomis,
Your “theory” that we should encourage socializing to end the shidduch crises, and that the crises is not caused by age gap, is wrong for several reasons.
1) Socializing is assur, plain and simple. It’s not a “yeshivishe chumra” or anything of the sort. Just basic halacha.
שו"ע (אה"ע סי' כ"א סעי' א'): צריך אדם להתרחק מן הנשים מאד מאד וכו' ואסור לשחוק עמה ולהקל ראשו כנגדה
In case you think “socializing” is not included, see what is said about going in mixed company to Tashlich.
אלף המגן תקצ"ח ז': ויש לבטל המנהג (אותיות גהנם) מה שהנשים הולכות ג"כ לתשליך, כי באין עי"ז לערבוביא הנשים עם האנשים ואוי לעינים שכך רואות ביום הק' הזה
2) There’s absolutely no reason to associate socializing with higher marriage rates. The chassidim are strictest when it comes to segregation, and they have no shidduch crises. The modern orthodox who believe in socializing have a worse problem with older singles than do the chareidim.
3) The age gap is most certainly true; it’s plain math, and the numbers don’t lie.
It’s ironic that you seem to feel that NASI is insulting older girls, but you don’t have a problem insulting the entire yeshiva world (not capitalized) by insinuating that we’re socially inept and can’t function on a date without mentoring. I’ll have you know that most of us, without any socializing before dating, somehow manage to function fine on dates, marry successfuly, and raise families.
tahini,
see point 1) above. Two more quotes:
מסכת אבות פרק ב משנה ד - הלל אומר… ואל תאמן בעצמך עד יום מותך
כתובות יג - אין אפוטרופוס לעריות
It has nothing to do with being "modern orthodox", it'a a matter of ignoring the words of Chaza"l.
There are already plenty of singles events. That is not a chiddush, or the solution.
Daas Yochid, perhaps the things you quote refer to MARRIED women, not to girls of marriageable age. They used to send girls into the fields on Tu B'Av to make shidduchim with the young men.
It’s ironic that you seem to feel that NASI is insulting older girls, but you don’t have a problem insulting the entire yeshiva world (not capitalized) by insinuating that we’re socially inept and can’t function on a date without mentoring. I’ll have you know that most of us, without any socializing before dating, somehow manage to function fine on dates, marry successfuly, and raise families."
I insulted no one. I accept that the Yeshivah world has a derech that they follow that has certain hashkafos that are a little more stringent than others follow. I have met only a very few Yeshivish young men who actually knew how to start and hold a conversation with a female who was not his immediate relative. most of the young men whom I have mnet over the years, do NOT know how to talk to a girl. And sometimes the girls do not know how to talk to a guy. And yes, the non-Yeshivish world has its share, too, but in a different way.
The fact that so many mentors and facilitators seem to be necessary nowadays (and please do not try to tell me this is not so, I constantly see articles everywhere, that are being written by frum dating experts who keep advising their readers to find a good mentor to instruct them on how to act on a date), seems to indicate to me that young men and women who grow up in certain environments, often have poor social skills (not to mention manners). Is this true of ALL Yeshivish people??? Of course not! That WOULD be insulting to imply that. But in my experience, it is true of MANY.
And yes, many people do manage to marry and raise families,in spite of being socially inept.If you disagree, fine. That does not necessarily mean I am incorrect. I don't generally make statements that are not based in my own personal observations. Your observations are apparently different from mine. And I have as much right to express my opinion as you do. I am sorry you feel I insulted the Yeshivah world, that certainly is not my intent. I am merely defending my position that socialization is not a bad thing, under controlled environments, and was the norm when I was growing up. And my generation had far less trouble getting married than does the present one. Draw your own conclusions.
oomis,
You still defend socializing even though the Shulchan Aruch says it's assur? Amazing.
The present generation of yeshivah boys has very little trouble getting married, b"H, it's much more of an issue with the girls.
DY Thank you for your comments and quotes.
I am NOT recommending unsupervised socialising! Chatting at a communal shabbaton or shul kiddush seem supervised controlled natural environments for a refined exchange.
Of course there is so much to admire in the yeshivish world, I am sure that is why so many kids from MO homes are drawn to yeshivish way of life, I as a parent support that and have seen it happen in my own back yard with PRIDE.
BUT there are problems in our communities as a whole which owe a lot to segregating the sexes from even exchanging a polite word to each other AND also being obsessed with material wealth. Yes it is an issue affecting our people we need to address. Shidduchim are affected by wealth and status, always have been and yes that is life, but for hundreds of years, Torah fearing men did not look at a partner and future mother of their children as a means of financial support.
To differentiate between young girls of 21 and 23 and use money as an incentive to find a match seems downright offensive. Yes shadchanim have always had a role and should be properly renumerated when so agreed, but a charitable organisation charging big bucks to get older girls married is basically saying money is the decisive factor. Just think of the message being sent out to the young, money talks! Yes it does in the goyish world but we are Jews and our Torah is not about big business it is about kavod, hesed and rachamim.
People wish to compare shadchanim to other services around, well in my family we are involved in law and medicine, when we come across a fellow Jew in dire straits urgently seeking our help, we do not CHARGE them. Simple.
i have been really shocked by the materialism I have encountered as some of our brethen eat in soup kitchens. I am not saying live like beggars but a bit of kavod to our fellow Jews instead of trying to keep up with the latest thing. Why does the Nasi scheme seems unsavoury? Because of how money and advantage will be used to influence and secure a shadchan's efforts. Even more upsetting is the realisation a caring organisiation pandies to greed and business by offering bigger bucks to help match the more " difficult older girls". What happened to basic decency and helping someone out.
DaasYochid: Which Sefer is your source for the quote regarding Tashlich coming from?
tahini,
It's very admirable that you are proud of your children for becoming more "yeshivish". Many parents whose children have done so are antagonistic towards them, and certainly are not proud. You must possess extraordinary character.
I nevertheless disagree with the rest of your post.
"Chatting at a communal shabbaton or shul kiddush" is no different than the mixed Tashlich decried by the poskim.
As I've explained, the money issue is not, IMO, insulting, just practical. It would be a nice ideal to say that even more difficult shadchanus should be done for free, but surely, if the older girls were indeed being focused on, there would be no need for this initiative.
It's quite admirable that your relatives who are doctors and lawyers (who, it should be noted, are usually considerably more well off financially than full time shadchanim) occasionally do work pro-bono, but it's unfair to demand that of others.
passfan,
אלף המגן. The קצה המטה says the same, and quotes the צבי לצדיק that the חכם צבי did not allow his daughters to go to Tashlich on R"H for this reason.
The אלף המגן and קצה המטה are standard commentaries on מטה אפרים, printed in many editions and quoted by later poskim.
DY, let us agree that we disagree, and at least respect each other's right to our viewpoint. I do respect yours. But I also believe that we do not live in a world like our great-great grandparents in which the genders are not mixed together for the most part, whether in work or out in the world at large, and the sooner our kids learn how to act properly when faced with these social challenges, and know how to PROPERLY interact, speak, do business with, and eventually date people of the opposite gender, the better off they will be. If you read disrespect of your derech into that statement, I assure you that you are mistaken. I am glad it works for you, as it apparently truly does. It does not work quite as well for many of the rest of the frum Jewish world, and therefore the process needs to be re-evaluated so we can see where different HALACHICALLY ACCEPTABLE methodologies can be utilized.
DY
Reading your post I realise the merit in agreeing to disagree.
With regard to having Yeshivish children, one is never too old to learn from one's kids.
As for a career in law/medicine being financially secure and allowing one to waive fees with more regularity than a shadchan, this had an element of truth but of course depends on what you choose to specialise in. |In the Uk we have a state funded health service, the salary of a doctor without private patients is nothing to write home about, nor a lawyer if integrity and fair play enter the equation. We specialise in cases and teaching where monetary profit is not king. We have a family rule : never turn a poor Jew in need away. Why ? Because we had family who were saved by good people who were generous with their own meagre portions.
I recognise difficult situations where shadchanim must make lengthy inquiries etc which are time consuming to undertake without payment, but to actively use money as outright incentive seems wrong, when money is an incentive there are many inherent dangers.
If Shadchanim were offered incentives in the way of reduced tutition fees / or free shul membership that would not be half as unsavoury as quoting large sums of dollars . It should be remembered few shadchanim rely on their matchmaking skills to pay the rent. If you fancy studying law or medicine it means years of study/training, and if you are a frum Jew that can mean entering graduate school post yeshiva/kollel as a mature student with young family in the background. Hence the need for marriages made with respect and dignity to see you through the good and the bad times.
oomis, ...the process needs to be re-evaluated so we can see where different HALACHICALLY ACCEPTABLE methodologies can be utilized.
That's been done. Even the normative way which yeshivah boys now "date" (several meetings, outside of the home) was controversial when it first began, but it was deemed necessary, under the umbrella of "מותר לאדם להסתכל בפנויה לבדקה אם היא יפה שישאנה", but nobody ever took it as far as you suggest.
No disrespect was taken, and certainly none was intended on my part either.
I am constantly checking on the discussion here, with much hope.
Almost all advice given here is like offering Tylenol to a cancer patient. Aint gonna help with the shortage of boys.
We need to pin down why there are much less older boys available to date, than older girls, and what we can do about it. Until we do that, IMHO, the Tylenol offered is a pitiful attempt at a solution.
We need to pin down why there are much less older boys available to date, than older girls
Age gap
what we can do about it
Encourage closer in age shidduchim.
That's what NASI is all about, as well as this initiative. If shadchanim, such as yourself, would get on board instead of being negative about it, it would be more likely to work.
Even granting that most people won't go for it, your Tylenol moshol is still imperfect. Whereas Tylenol only relieves pain, if the age gap is closed even slightly, that means, statistically, fewer unmarried older girls. For those girls, even if few, it's better than acetaminophen; it's a cure. A better moshol might be a cure which has a 1% better chance of success than any other cure. For those few who survive, it's quite significant.
Daas:
How in the world will the new NASI project where older girls pay up front, which this thread was discussing from the beginning, ease the age gap problem? In the game of musical chairs, only 1 person is allowed per chair. If anyone playing musical chairs pre-pays for a chair, it leaves the same number of people with no chair. Its not creating more chairs.
In the game of real life Shidduchim, its still one girl per guy, B"H, with the girls who are paying getting more Shadchanim's attention. Its NOT creating more guys!!! The same number will remain single.
I must be veryyyyyy thick OR (sorry but) perhaps thats why your name is Daas Yochid.
How in the world will the new NASI project where older girls pay up front, which this thread was discussing from the beginning, ease the age gap problem?
The theory is that the shadchanim, when dealing with a particular bochur, will be motivated to redt him older girls.
Say, for example,that a shadchan, has a relationship with a particular 23 year old bochur, Moish. Until now, he would prefer to redt him a 19 or 20 year old girl, figuring it's an easier match (she's less choosy and complicated, by sterotype). But now, if he instead redts a 22 or 23 year old girl to Moish (hoping to receive a big check so that he can pay his tuition bill), and they marry, that's a closer in age shidduch. Multiply that by many boys on that shadchan's "list", and by the number of shadchanim who would like their sons' rebbeim to get paid (or buy their wives a nice gift, fot that matter), and, voilà, more chairs - the gap has been (somewhat) closed.
It's not foolproof, because there's no specific stipulation that the boy must be within a certain age of the girl. It should generally work out anyhow, as I said, because many shadchanim have a relationships with a particular boys, and based on the fact that there are much fewer older boys around than younger ones (most of the older ones are married).
OFcourse:
I'll allow you to anwser your own question but here's something to consider:
From NASI:
The two goals of the program are:
A. To focus the majority of shidduch attention on the young women who didn’t just begin dating, (READ: redd the boys who are just starting to date to the 22-24 year old young women, instead of to the 19/20 year olds) thus closing the Age Gap.
B. To bring as much attention as possible to the young women who have been dating more than 6/7 years, thus affording them every opportunity to find their zivug.
Why is no one in the velt concerned with the psychological fallout from all this?. What is a 21 22 yr. old girl to think of herself, when poor mommy and (rebbe) Tatty, have to schnorr to come up with this money (which they just had to do for seminary, an now for a dating wardrobe) just so nebachel "chanie" can get shidduch.? We havent needed it until now, why do we need it now?. WHat has changed? the only thing i can see that has changed, is that the boys are staying longer in israel, and the girls are going out when they get home. I say either put all 19 20 yr old girls in the freezer (which will never work) or , pick up half those bochurim you saw at R Nosson Tzvi' s levaya and bring them home for six to eight weeks to date, there goes your shidduch crisis right there. Additionally, i feel, the gedolim need to make more stringent demands on the mothers of boys regarding getting back to people, and making timely decisions etc. Also, if NASI feels so strongly about incentives for shadchanim why does it have to be a big public thing? why cant a parent of an older girl simply engage the services of a local or family shadchan, and offer them pay according to how much time and effort was put into the shidduch.? The business of it all just seems wrong. Privately, there can be (and are currently) shadchanim who specialize in older candidates, why make it a public forum whereas if you dont cough up the big bucks you are blacklisted./?
If I were Jonathan Swift ("Gulliver's Travels")I would probably write an updated version of "A Modest Proposal" and suggest that parents simply eat half of all the baby girls born, so as to ensure that there will be enough boys to go around for the rest of the girls. But I am neither Jonathan nor too Swift these days, so I will refrain from trying to figure out how to bridge the numbers (not age) gap.
jl, Also, if NASI feels so strongly about incentives for shadchanim why does it have to be a big public thing?
I think they're giving it a better chance, by making one central hub for these shidduchim. As you pointed out yourself, shadchanim are already privately engaged, so saying it should be done privately is in essence saying "lets do nothing".
As far as the boys coming back earlier, this is where I differ from NASI; they're in favor of it, I think it's completely an individual decision, and most boys will decide that they're better off learning for a while longer before getting married.
As far as putting girls in the freezer, is it really fair to tell a girl who is ready to get married that she must wait? It would likely a "g'zeira she'ein hatzibbur y'ccholim la'amod bah".
NASI's ideas are aimed at that same goal, indirectly, but without the negative backlash which would surely erupt (much worse than anything we've seen thus far) if rabbonim would forbid some girls from getting married.
I think encouraging (call it bribing if you wish) shadchanim to focus on the older girls is the only way to go. Hopefully, when the message is out that we need to focus on the older girls, many will do so even without financial incentive. Then everyone will be helped, be"H.
Daas and AZ:
Pay their tuitions? Oh, sure. That's important!
The easiest Shidduchim will always be the "low lying fruit" - easy boy to easy girl.
If the girl is 20 theyre still getting Shadchanus. The only way your reasoning would make any sense, would be if Shadchanim would be forbidden to get Shachanus for Shidduchim involving young girls. Then maybe we'd touch upon a solution to the problem!!!!!!!!
Shadchanim will make 3 Shidduchim with young girls in the time it takes to make one with an older girl, and make more money!!! ....
With the present Nasi guidelines, its a Tylenol for a cancer patient, l"a, too little, too late! Raising $10.00 for charity, when you need $100,000. Sorry, A+ for effort, but not enough to accomplish any goal.
AZ:
What do you say to BTGuy? If a shaddchan believes that the best girl for a specific guy is a 20 year old, what gives you (or a shaddchan) the right to pass her over for a 22 year old?
NASI is not concerned about fixing the problem. They are exploiting the problem for financial gain, and in essence, permanently embedding the problem by creating a new standard, which I hope others will not follow. Raising the price on a proper match for someone, by the year, is obscene.
No matter how people feel about this, the tumult alone is a sign that something is wrong with this program. Just because some really really like it and say the understand it, does mitigate the fact that many of us do not like it one tiny bit.
The boys and their families should chill out on the age thing, for the sake of the daughters. Good things will happen if they do that.
Ofcourse, Shadchanim will make 3 Shidduchim with young girls in the time it takes to make one with an older girl, and make more money!!!
You've just explained exactly why the shadchanus gelt asked for in this initiative is three times higher than the norm!
I really don't understand what your issue is.
Well if it isnt DaasYochid!!!!?(or Yechidim), how many girls signed up, as desperate as they are!!!!?
I really don't understand what your issue is. "
DY, so many of us think this is a bad idea for whatever reason. Why do the NASI folks not understand what OUR issue is?
Someone once asked the question about what the difference is between a pane of glass and a mirror? After all they are both made of glass. The answer is that the mirror is glass that has been coated with silver. When you look out a pane of glass, you see everyone around you. But as soon as you cover that glass with a little silver (or in this case, gelt), all you can see is yourself. The perception that troubles many of us is that the NASI project seems overly concerned NOT with how many happy shidduchim they can successfully make, but how much gelt the shadchanim can potentially make (off other people's desperation and loneliness).
I understand that you personally do not see it this way, but if it comes across this way to so many people, then EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT in everything you state, there is something fundamentally wrong with the project as it stands now.
how many girls signed up, as desperate as they are!!!!?
You would have to ask NASI that, I have no idea.
EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT in everything you state, there is something fundamentally wrong with the project as it stands now.
I agree; I don't think it was presented well. But it's up to thinking people, such as yourself, to see past that and analyze it for what it is, a potentially valuable project which could ease the tza'ar of some of our precious bnos Yisroel.
Dear NASI people. i think i misunderstood this whole thing!!! the crisis is not just for the older girls, then maybe just maybe NASI would make some sense but the regular 19 20 yr olds still cant get a yes from the boys because of a. the mother's are too (whatever) and b. the boys are staying in Israel too long. Again, no one has explained to me what has changed. the target yeshiva boy in Litvish circles was always 23 and girls 19.20. You cant tell me that all of a sudden G=d decided to create more or less of one kind. That is ridiculous!!!
When Gedolei HaDor get together to study the issue and brainstorm and make changes, and see to it that their changes are seriously implemented (I'm not sure what the changes should be, Im not a Gadol with clairvoyance), then we will see Nechama from this heart-wrenching Matzav. Until then we are offering Bandaids and Tylenols to desperate folk, and theyre not grabbing.
jl, the crisis is not just for the older girls, then maybe just maybe NASI would make some sense but the regular 19 20 yr olds still cant get a yes from the boys
Because there are more of them than 23-24 tear old boys. The cause, age gap coupled with an increasing population. The solution NASI proposes, to close the age gap, would do wonders to affect that girls could get a yes. You were correct when you said, "i think i misunderstood this whole thing!!!"
Again, no one has explained to me what has changed. the target yeshiva boy in Litvish circles was always 23 and girls 19.20.
I'm really not sure when this problem began; it seems to me that there was a gender imbalance twenty years ago, and probably earlier; I became aware of the fact that it is an effect of age gap/population increase over a decade ago (I don't know how long before that others understood the issue). If this gender disparity was not always a factor (which I don't know for a fact is true), the could could be attributed to increased rate of population growth.
AZ, do you know when this problem began?
Ofcourse, theyre not grabbing.
Apparently, there were more people "grabbing" from NASI (their first initiative) than there was money available!
As to this initiative, I don't know what the success level will be, but it's certainly too early to claim that "they're not grabbing" when the program hasn't even started yet!
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