If you've read "NASI Project Responds", have you changed your mind?

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  • #848128
    oomis
    Participant

    Oomis and 42, golly is a euphemism for G-d. “

    That, too, is correct. Good golly, is like saying, “Good G-d!” HOWEVER,the difference is that golly, does not subsititute befeirush for Oso haIsh, as the word “gee” absolutely does.

    #848129

    Oomis,

    Still improper to use (if one is concerned with the origin of the word), but for a different reason.

    #848130
    oomis
    Participant

    Oomis,

    Still improper to use (if one is concerned with the origin of the word), but for a different reason. “

    No argument from me here πŸ™‚

    #848131
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Jeez. Jesus. Any other form of the name. Jesus is the anglicised form of the latin for this name, which is in turn a take off of the greek form of the name given to this fellow (some take it one step further back to hebrew). For the record, this name is never found once in the entire xtian bible!

    If you dont want to use this name in any of its forms, you should probably refrain from saying the days of the week too. Thursday for example is just the anglicised version of thors Day with thor being the greek god of something or another. In fact, I would suggest saying thursday is worse than saying jesus. (boy, this discussion has come a long way from the nasi program!) Go with yom rishon, sheini etc..

    #848132
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Thor

    If all you have is a hammer…..

    #848133
    AZ
    Participant

    Einstein:

    Insanity: doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results.

    (don’t remeber)

    The significant problem we face, can only be solved by apporaching them from a different way of thinking then where we were at when go ourselves into the present situation.

    #848134
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I wonder what Einstein would say about posting the same thing, again and again and again?

    I heard his theory of relativity states, that no matter how hard you try, there will be at least 1 relative who isn’t happy with their seat at your simcha.

    #848135
    squeak
    Participant

    apy- no doubt, but AZ is clearly willing to sacrifice sanity for the mission, as he has demonstrated here for years. Let’s just be sure to keep ours, eh? Trust me, you are far from alone in the way you feel about this.

    #848136

    AZ,

    Einstein:

    Insanity: doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results.

    OK, I’m trying a Chiddush for a cold. Im sticking vitamins up my nostrils, and I dont feel any better. My nose is sore, thats the only change so far.

    #848137
    AZ
    Participant

    MSS: Results results results…

    If the results of your new cold remedy is a sore nose than i think Einstein would suggest you try look for an alternative.

    If the result of the NASI Project to date has been

    widespread awareness as to the nature of the problem,(even if some cr folks still don’t get it).

    breaking of the stigma that prevented young men from considereing shidduchim with young women thier own age or slightly onlder than them,

    activating many community wide programs that have successfully generated significantly added shidduch attention for young women who didn’t just start dating,

    and most importanly researching ways to implement minor changes that could have major impact on the crisis in a big way….

    despite having to fight the naysayers every step and every turn….

    then yeah i think Einstein would approve.

    #848138

    I was a great fan of NASI until this, as were many others.

    There were always Naysayers, but it seems that newly shocked and horrified Naysayers are growing in numbers and outrage since NASI came up with this new initiative.

    #848139
    apushatayid
    Participant

    More than Einsteins approval; what would change public thinking, perception and action, would be, the Rabbeim and Rabbonim who sign onto and endorse such initiatives, sign up their own family members and encourage their own mispallilim to do the same and make shidduchim for their own children, grandchildren, talmidim and mispallelim using guidelines suggested by such initiatives. (Yes, that was a long run on sentence, hopefully Einstein won’t disapprove).

    #848140

    Apy,

    You’re implying that the public perception of our rabbonim and R”Y is that they are hypocritical and are suggesting a solution for the masses which they would never follow themselves or suggest for loved ones. I hope you’re wrong, and that the general public’s trust has not been so horribly eroded.

    #848141

    You’re implying that the public perception of our rabbonim and R”Y is that they are hypocritical

    Narishkeiten. For every Rov who is undersigned, there are hundreds who arent. As with almost every issue that doesnt involve a clear Mitzvah D’Oraisa, many opinions exist.

    AZ, is joining NA$I’s new initiative, a clear Mitzvah D’Oraisa?

    #848142
    AZ
    Participant

    MSS: every progarm and i mean EVERY program the nasi project started since their inception met with naysayers such as yourself. Epsecially in this fourm. -do you remeber the reatcion ppl had to the concept of appreciating, and compensating for dates 11/400 even if the couple didn’t gt engaged.

    At yet you say you are/were a big fan of the project until this new program.

    As the saying goes,

    Mah she’lo yaaseh haseiychel, yaaseh haziman,

    I”m sure that will be true regrading your feelings about this new program as well.

    APY: I”m not quite sure what change you are looking for. So far plenty of you women have gladly signed up. The program will be active next friday, and then the results will be the measure by which the program will be judged. If your concern is the public percepionof the progman in the CR, I don’t think the people involved in running and advising the progam care of that much for this forum.

    My apologies for bursting anyones buble.

    #848143
    oomis
    Participant

    Jeez. Jesus. Any other form of the name. Jesus is the anglicised form of the latin for this name, which is in turn a take off of the greek form of the name given to this fellow (some take it one step further back to hebrew). For the record, this name is never found once in the entire xtian bible! “

    It’s so ironic, but I personally hold that his name SHOULD be said, otherwise we are chalilah giving it the equivalent chashivus that we do to Hashem’s Name which we do NOT mention except in making a bracha, davening or laining. So bedavka, if I were talking about the man (i.e., not using the name as a mild expletive)I WOULD philosophically say jesus.

    BUT – out of respect for the people who post here, who always refer to yeshu as …well.. yeshu or oso ish, I didn’t want to offend anyone by writing “jesus” in my post. HOWEVER, the expression gee or geez should not be used by us, as it is the same as saying “oh,jesus!” as an exclamation for our own conversation. Clearly that would be very inappropriate for any yid, much less a frum one.

    #848144
    AZ
    Participant

    MSS: To the best of my knowledge no one has has in any which way pressured or even encouraged any individuals to join, NASI hs simply set up a program that is a open offer to anyone who would like to participate in it?

    Have you seen/heard/read anything different??

    As an aside, i am aware of a few rabbonim who support the program but for variouls reasons choose not to put their name. I am unaware of any rabbonim who unequivocally stated that the program should not be run. (that doesn’t mean they don’t exist, there are frequently numberous legitimate opinions on any issue, but i’ve yet to be made aware of a Rov/R”Y who was explained the program and said, nope, don’t do it. In fact one of the rabbonim whose name actually ppears was someone who intially told a shadchan not to join when he first heard about it. He didn’t like the concept. He is now one of the few names on the ad. This came to light when a shadchan initially declined to join the program as per their rov’s advice and then after seeing the ad, the shadchan got back in touch with their rov becaue they were sure there was a mistake in the ad………..and lo and behold… the shadchan was encouraged to do join by the same rov…)

    You state hundreds… interesting… or do you simply meant that there are hundreds whose name don’t appear….

    judging by the number of people who have a title Rabbi in the phone book you should have written thousands and thousands…

    #848145

    <em<>You’re implying that the public perception of our rabbonim and R”Y is that they are hypocritical

    Narishkeiten. For every Rov who is undersigned, there are hundreds who arent. As with almost every issue that doesnt involve a clear Mitzvah D’Oraisa, many opinions exist.

    Your post doesn’t address mine. I was referring to the ones who did sign, and apy’s implied skepticism regarding how the public perceives their intention.

    The fact that someone didn’t sign does not indicate opposition.

    #848146

    AZ,

    My apologies for bursting anyones buble.

    Should the program flop, there should be apologies for bursting peoples bank accounts, forget bubbles.

    Time will tell. We’ll know in a year or two. If people dont feel they’ve gotten the results they were looking for, they’ll remove the money themselves and will become much bigger Naysayers than anyone in the CR who didnt invest.

    Unless NASI yields results or can offer a good interest rate and FDIC insurance.

    Ive been told by an insider of a Shidduch organization which is not doing well and desperately looking to publicize successes, that they ask people they know well whose children get engaged outside of the organization, if they can publicize the Shidduch as one of their successes. Barf.

    #848147
    AZ
    Participant

    NASI has always been about results, nothing more and nothing less.

    They will be happy to return anyones money at anytime as per the contract the participnats signed. Yes the money is under FDIC insuracne.

    One thing NASI was michadesh it that results should be measeured by dates set up for girls who didn’t just start dating and not only be measuere by engagements.

    Remember the 100/400 project..

    Shadchanim don’t make engagement, HE does, shadchanim biderech hateva can set up dates… enougth dates for girls who didn’t just start dating and there will be more such marriages,,, and that is actaully the thinking behind this new program as well.

    #848148

    AZ, I sense your good intentions, but if Nasi would have chosen to go the route of hiring 10 f/t Shadchanim financed by the same people who have enough money for Hilton weddings, and these Shadchanim would have been busy as bees, feverishly working under supervisors, focusing on older singles, with no money put out by singles or their parents, I think more people would have been thrilled. One day….

    And by the way, despite the financial glitch we’re in, there are still inzere people making weddings in the Hilton. Check out Youtube! (sorry for going off on a tangent) So, there are people TODAY who could very well afford to finance something along those lines.

    Halevei……

    #848149
    AZ
    Participant

    MSS: the only people who would have been thrilled would be those ten shadchanim.

    That method has been tried tested and proven to…..

    FAIL….

    But if you’d like to try that route… by all means go for it!!!!

    What NASI did do is a far more cost effectvie and has produced far better results and that is work with numeroud communities to compensate shadchanim (not just a special ten) set up dates for older girls…..

    good thing they didn’t listen to the cr naysayers…

    #848150

    AZ,

    What NASI did do is a far more cost effectvie and has produced far better results and that is work with numeroud communities to compensate shadchanim (not just a special ten) set up dates for older girls…..

    That wasnt humiliating to the older girls.

    Good, smart, fine, accomplished older girls having to put out big big big bucks to get Shadchanim’s attention, is humiliating to the older girls.

    #848151

    Good, smart, fine, accomplished older girls having to put out big big big bucks to get Shadchanim’s attention, is humiliating to the older girls.

    Is it more humiliating to put out money and get attention, or to not put out money but not get attention?

    #848153

    DY,

    Is it more humiliating to put out money and get attention, or to not put out money but not get attention?

    By the time a girl is considered an “older girl”, she’s working on Bitachon mode, and yes, it’s more humiliating to put out money and get this kind of attention. There’s a multitude of levels of Hishtadlus and this paying/begging for attention involves lowering themselves to the point of humiliation and depression.

    #848154
    AZ
    Participant

    MSS: Hard for me to understand why you consider this paying, begging for attention. Perhaps it’s attitudes such as yours that are humiliating to the singles.

    The reality that redding shidduchim takes tremendous amounts of time and effort and coming up with a fair way of compensationg those who are ready to ut in the effort is far from humilating. Is it humilating to pay for clothes we wear. is it humilating to pay for the homes we live in. why is it humilating to pay the people who spend time and energy to get us to the chuppah. The only question is figuring out the effective and accurate cost for such a invaluable service. The fact that it hasn’t been done this way, shouldn’t stop anyone, especially since the old system contributed to the tragic sitaution we presently find ourselves in.

    If you want to view it as paying, begging, humilating… that’s your choice, but it’s certainly NOT reality.

    The best b’derech hateva histadlus one can do is that which will generate dates for themselves. The jury is out whether this new program will accomplish that, but unless you decide it’s humiltating it isn’t.

    And if it accomplishes it, then it is certainly well worth it…..

    oh did i forget to mention, we still haven’t seen any other sniffs of a plan from anyone anywhere…

    just saying…. and i’d bet that you weren’t gung who on the 100/400 program when it first started either….

    #848155

    AZ, this will by no means increase the number of boys!!!! The only thing thats rising is the Shadchanim’s pay. The guys who are red to way younger girls, will still be marrying them, with Nasi’s blessing or without. There will still be the same number of girls left without guys, at the end of the day. Its at best a band-aid for a hemmorhage.

    I havent the faintest idea what the solution is, but it sure aint this. It’s like chocolate, it temporarily makes people feel good, depositing their money for what will be in most cases false hope.

    #848156
    oomis
    Participant

    It is amazing to me that anyone has a problem understanding how the older girls must negatively feel as a result of this initiative.

    #848157

    oomis1105,

    It is amazing to me that anyone has a problem understanding how the older girls must negatively feel as a result of this initiative.

    Im with you BIGTIME oomis!!!! Lots more girls crying into their pillows and ch”v considering going OTD, lo aleinu. And you can almost not blame them. Davening, davening, and davening, trying to get into the best schools for degrees, looking their best, going everywhere to meet the right connections for Shidduchim, studying their hardest, then working their hardest, and now emptying their bankbooks for prepayment too? I wish I had the answer, but NASI goofed bigtime with this attempt, syphoning whatever self respect and money the girls have left.

    Lo’mich Oop (as they say in French)!

    #848159
    AZ
    Participant

    MSS: would you like me to explain to you why this program WILL close the age gap. Is it the total solution-of course not. It’s a smart part of a effective multi pronged approach.

    nothing more nothing less.

    if you would like it spelled out i’d be glad to do so. (even thought it’s been spelled out in this forum and in the papers many many times)

    oomis1105:

    Understand?

    Trust me i understand. As do the people who are runnng and advising the project as a whole and this program in particular.

    It is this EXACT sensitivtiy and care for the plight of the single girls that has driven this group of people to dedicated the last four plus years of their lives to alleviate and iy”h totally eradicate the major cause of the crisis.

    That being said, this specific program is actually something that will benefit the very people whose initial reaciton was so negative.

    The program has already seen many many people who initially were horrified by the concept and now understand it and are actually proponents of it.

    here’s a little anecdote…. this past motzei shabbos at some funtcion, a woman who got married in her 30’s approaced a shadchan (who she knew but didn’t know that the shadhan happens to be familiar with the project and program) to discuss this program. The woman was disugusted, up in arms, it’s degrading, demeaning, like meat etc. She was speaking on behalf of herself as well as her far to numerous friends who are still single.

    Well after the shadchan expalined some things to her she had a diffferent attitude. Before the evening was over she came back to the shadchan and apologized for her inapporpraite and completely unjust reaction.

    so oomis1105 as i’ve written before

    maah shelo yaaseh hasaychel yaashe haziman….

    #848160

    AZ, have you ever admitted that you or anyone else of importance at NASI, made a mistake leading to consequence in regard to anything dealing with Shidduchim and NASI? If not, you’re all batting 100, l’havdil like G-d. Pretty impressive.

    #848161

    AZ, oops, batting 1000. I make mistakes and admit them.

    #848162
    AZ
    Participant

    MSS:

    Mistakes- of course πŸ™‚

    On this program itself it was a mistake to use the term game changing in the first ad and that’s why it was changed in subsequent ads…

    It’s actually a bit mind boggling your being so sure the program will is a mistake and will fail when you admit that you haven’t any idea how this program intends to alleviate the age gap.

    Forget the fact that they have published the names of some well recognized rabbonim and R”Y who endorse the program. Wouldn’t you agree that if the results are produced and far more attention is directed in the way of young women who are 22 and up that the program is worthwhile.

    Don’t you think that young women whose inital reaction was one of disgust etc, but if over the next few months find themselves with far more shidduch opportunities than ever before then this program is a effective one. (and yes there are quite a few people who were initailly appaleed and are now participanting in the program.)

    The cardinal rule at the NASI Project is that they take feedbak/input from anyone and everyone and then put into practice based on judgements made by the people running the program.

    I think a mistake being made is people claiming to have nevuah as to the surefire lack of success that this program – which hasn’t even started yet-will create.

    How about let’s wait and see and allow the results to speak for themselves.

    #848163

    “How about let’s wait and see and allow the results to speak for themselves.”

    Surely, but Im worried that the people within might claim successes not necessarily theirs, to save face (as I mentioned I know to be the case with another Shidduch organization, as told to me by an insider), and will suck in new people, while the old withdraw their funds, over and over. Sort of like Madoff…

    #848164
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “You’re implying that the public perception of our rabbonim and R”Y is that they are hypocritical and are suggesting a solution for the masses which they would never follow themselves or suggest for loved ones.”

    You have an overactive imagination.

    #848165
    AZ
    Participant

    So you’re accusing a project of doing something in the future.

    by the way won’t the participants have something to say about that.

    I meand in the contract it states that they get thier money back if a non registered shadchan makes the shidduch

    whatever. Not important.

    we will wait for the resutls.

    you can then make your accusations…

    see you then…

    #848166
    oomis
    Participant

    Az, I guess you and I will never see eye to “aye” on this forum. Hatzlacha.

    #848167

    Apy,

    What, then did you mean when you wrote, “what would change public thinking, perception and action, would be, the Rabbeim and Rabbonim who sign onto and endorse such initiatives, sign up their own family members and encourage their own mispallilim to do the same”?

    Why would they need to have people they are personally involved with sign up to “change public…perception”?

    #848168

    It is amazing to me that anyone has a problem understanding how the older girls must negatively feel as a result of this initiative.

    Who says anyone doesn’t understand? Maybe it’s worth the attempt for the long term goal of having more of them get married!

    #848169

    You know, this is really pathetic.

    Even NASI sympathizers, and everyone else, in their heart of hearts, know that this wont anywhere near solve the issue of the growing numbers of unmarried older single girls, no matter how many times they repost the same rhetoric. So let them gezunterheit do their best with that, Kol Hakavod to whoever wishes to join, but it would be comforting to hear of other concrete developments implemented alongside the new outrageously costly initiative.

    Perhaps it’s time for Rabbonim to consider that (please forgive me for repeating a post from another thread, but I strongly feel we need to do something fast) I think we’re in a Sakana matzav already and only Gedolim can advise, perhaps by organizing and providing the “Who What When and Where” for older singles to meet on their own, or semi supervised, with the same interest and commitment as when planning Siumei Shas. It can be done.

    Introducing such a concept has potential for being very effective. What can I say? More ideas, more potential for results, more weddings, more Jewish children.

    #848170

    I think we’re in a Sakana matzav already and only Gedolim can advise, perhaps by organizing and providing the “Who What When and Where” for older singles to meet on their own, or semi supervised, with the same interest and commitment as when planning Siumei Shas. It can be done.

    And has been done.

    #848171

    And has been done.

    When was it and when is the next? If the idea needs more manpower or tweaking, we can certainly find able manpower and able tweakers.

    #848172

    MSS,

    I know they had one a couple of years ago (Agudah sponsored singles event with shadchanim on the spot to follow through on any promising leads), but I don’t know if it was repeated or if there are any plans to do so.

    #848173

    DY,

    I know they had one a couple of years ago

    If it wasnt publicized on YW, it didnt happen! πŸ˜‰

    Seriously, this should be done monthly. Very easily financed by the people who make NY Hilton weddings and that crowd, etc. (if you know one, tell them so) or others with sympathy for older singles.

    #848174
    mordern
    Member

    And besides who will wait now till their 21 if it will cost them more this will just increase the problem.

    #848175

    Human nature.

    A good shadchan does a lot more than just present a name.

    Hmmm… I don’t think so, unless someone acts as a central hub for that, such as NASI is doing for the older girls. (I think I’ve just answered your first question as well).

    who will wait now till their 21 if it will cost them more this will just increase the problem.

    No one’s intentionally waiting in any case (unless they are anyhow not ready).

    #848176

    A good shadchan does a lot more than just present a name (DY reply)

    C’mon. No one is that out of touch.

    Anyone who reads the papers knows what the Shadchan’s goal is, whether subtle or not, and one of their reason$ for pushing an older girl over a younger one (to some very much the Ikar unfortunately, to some the Tafel). If Shadchanim earning more money wouldnt be a great incentive to work harder for older girls, this initiative wouldnt have been created (barf) :-o. Nasi admits that. Boys and their mothers are very well aware of this.

    You can talk til youre blue in the face, when a Shadchan calls to red an older girl, boys and mothers know what the Shadchan is up to, no matter how skillful the Shadchan is (the NASI initiative took the lishma and special Schar away from the Shadchan in exchange for $$$), proving to all how money-centric many in our community are, and how we allow it and even encourage it (barf again)!

    #848177

    MSS,

    I’m not clear on your post. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with my opinion that redting a shidduch with an older girl is more difficult than with a younger one?

    #848178
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    ???

    ????

    ???

    ????

    #848179

    DY,

    Are you agreeing or disagreeing with my opinion that redting a shidduch with an older girl is more difficult than with a younger one?

    Definitely. No one is denying it. BUT further victimizing the victims, is NOT the Torah way. Shadchan incentives should have come about from other means than the pockets of the already badly pained victims, and not be that steep! This is a bone in the throat of every sensitive person. Hard to tolerate.

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