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Definitely. No one is denying it. BUT further victimizing the victims, is NOT the Torah way.
That’s your choice to call it victimizing, but the way I see it, paying more for a more difficult, time consuming job is not being victimized.
DY,
paying more for a more difficult, time consuming job is not being victimized.
And where has trust gone? Has trust gone out the window among us? Are we assuming that there are many cases where people wont pay up (that it’s not a very rare occurence where people are stiffed)? Otherwise why the need for everyone to prepay?
MSS:
so now we get to the bottom of the issue. You agree to the concpet. You agree that redding shidduchim gets significantly more difficult and the shadchanim deserve to be more fairly compensated the older the sinlges are, and that such a system has the potnential to generate far more attention for young women who didn’t just start dating.
so your entire beef with this specific project is why does everyone need to “prepay” is that the toatlity of your complaint?
Is that what it’s about?
AZ,
so your entire beef with this specific project is why does everyone need to “prepay” is that the toatlity of your complaint?
Is that what it’s about?
A nechtiger tug, just one of the many complaints.
But please address the distrust of the frum community by obligating ALL interested parties to prepay, even if its a minority who wont pay up after a Shadchan successfully completes a Shidduch.
MSS,
I have an idea. Why don’t you start a similar program to NASI’s, with yours working on an honor system, and let’s see which one works better.
I have an idea. Why don’t you start a similar program to NASI’s, with yours working on an honor system, and let’s see which one works better.
Ouch. Thats a sad commentary on your view of truth and commitment in our community. Possibly undeserved. (Barf, the third time)
DY: i second that notion…
MSS: Would you at least have a bit of “trust” in the NASI Project that they seriously considered that option and decided against it. I’m sure they “of course” sincerely apologize to you for not consulting with you first and accepting your opinion as to how it should be run.
I still say the Gedolei Hador should immediately issue a kol koray that ALL professionally paid shadchanim have a chiyuv to make at least 5 successful shidduchim per year pro bono for “hard to make” shidduchim (older singles, physically or medically challenged, BT, Geirim, etc, or any combination thereof).
Additionally, the rabbonim should declare that every shidduch made l’sheim mitzvah gets a sachar in olam haba, whereas evey shidduch made for business purposes gets no more sachar than does working at ANY occupation for a living.
AZ,
Is NASI willing to be totally transparent to the Shadchanim and investors, offering names and dates of successful Shidduchim? (to atleast somehow guard against it becoming a mini Ponzi sceme).
I still say the Gedolei Hador should immediately issue a kol koray that ALL professionally paid shadchanim have a chiyuv to make at least 5 successful shidduchim per year pro bono for “hard to make” shidduchim (older singles, physically or medically challenged, BT, Geirim, etc, or any combination thereof).
Do you really want the gedolei hador to start making mandatory takanos?
Additionally, the rabbonim should declare that every shidduch made l’sheim mitzvah gets a sachar in olam haba,
Done already, as I think you already know.
whereas evey shidduch made for business purposes gets no more sachar than does working at ANY occupation for a living.
Do you really want them to lie?
You are painting peoples actions and motivations with only black and white brushes, but they’re more complicated than that. People do things for multiple reasons, and receive schar according to the level of “l’shem shomayim”. It’s not all or none.
Ouch. Thats a sad commentary on your view of truth and commitment in our community. Possibly undeserved.
No, I actually think most people would follow through, but the minority who wouldn’t would destroy the whole program.
(Barf, the third time)
I hope you feel better now.
Ad masay?
Is NASI willing to be totally transparent to the Shadchanim and investors, offering names and dates of successful Shidduchim?
Wouldn’t that be an infringement on their privacy?
Earlier, you wrote, “Good, smart, fine, accomplished older girls having to put out big big big bucks to get Shadchanim’s attention, is humiliating to the older girls.”, and now you want the names of those who put up the money to be “totally transparent”?
oomis:
Your post was so comical i had to respond.
1. Nice of you to tell the gedolim what to do.
2. I don’t think there’s a shadchan in the world who makes 5 hard cases a year. And if the did it one year they certainly aren’t able to do it on a consistent basis. And you want that to become statndard practice for ALL shachanim- or else! It’s attitudes like these from people who don’t understand the shidduch/shadchan process that gives shadchanim a bad rap. Maybe try you hand a bit and you’ll sing a different tune
3. “the rabbonim should declare that every shidduch made l’sheim mitzvah gets a sachar in olam haba, whereas evey shidduch made for business purposes gets no more sachar than does working at ANY occupation for a living.”
a. I think they should include Rabbeim, Rabbonim mohalim etc. in this declaration. After all they get paid salaries. What a despicable group. Why can’t they do it lsheim shamayim????
b. for the record, shadchnus money is kosher gelt, the story is told that that chasam sofer would use shadchanus money to buy his esrog. Money paid to rebbeim and mohelim is very questionable as al pi strict halacha one is NOT allowed to receive payment for these services.
To be clear i am not looking to in anyway shape or form to take away what rebbeim rabbonim mohelim etc. deserve and of course for whatever reasons it is stadards practive. I’m just pointing out the warped sense or apporpriatiness that is clear in your post. But don’t feel bad unfortanetly you have lots of company….
MSS: for someone who asks for trust…
Curious what you mean by minin ponzi scheme. there’s no money going to anyone unless there’s a completed shidduch and even for completed shidduchim there’s only a pittance going to the progam.. Or do your refer to the .0001 precent interest. That’s a awful lot of work to generated some money.
would be much easier for them to skip this whole program.
They will have accurate records, but frankly it’s no ones business who is dating whom so that info won’t be made public. If you’d like that info, contact them and offer to run the operation for them. I’m sure they’d gracioulsy appreciate you help, and then you’ll be privy to all the info you seek.
Are we going to start a weight charge to any girl over a certain amount of weight must pay 5,000 to get Shadchnum to bother with them
This is a great idea! Shadchanus should be by the pound!
Earlier, you wrote, “Good, smart, fine, accomplished older girls having to put out big big big bucks to get Shadchanim’s attention, is humiliating to the older girls.”, and now you want the names of those who put up the money to be “totally transparent”?
Without question! Once theyve found their basherte, theyre drowning in happiness and gratitude and wouldnt give a hoot to publicize it and thereby encourage others to do the same!
mordern: Are we going to start a weight charge
How would that help solve the age gap issue?
Which is precisely why the NASI initiative helps the girls who aren’t rich more than the ones who are.
MSS,
Your contention that privately putting up money is humiliating, but announcing to the world that this girl was only able to get a date and get married because the shadchan was offered extra money, is ridiculous.
If a girl chooses to reveal that information, that’s fine, but the fact that you want this information to be publicized even against her will seems to show an extreme lack of sensitivity on your part.
mordern: Great Question. So why do you think NASI is doing it. Not much in for themselves…..
MSS: i’ve noticed you didn’t answer my question.
Az, you are hopeless. You and I both know Gedolim would NEVER do what I suggested, because it would be received badly. Shadchanim who are eageerly becoming part of your project, are showing EXACTLY why they are doing it. Mit monik mir ken koifen honik. it is ALL about the money and nothing else. Otherwise, these same lovely shadhchanim WOULD do what someone else pointed out, and just charge a little more than usual for the zechus of setting up the hard- to-finds. Gold is glittering in their eyes, now, because of NASI. And it IS insulting to the older girls, no matter what you think. Hard enough for them to deal with the fact that they are watching life passing them by, often through NO fault of their own. Now they have to be fined for it as well.
oomis1105: it is you who are hopeless. If you had any idea which shadhcnim are on the list you’d think thrice about writing that.
And if you only knew how thrilled the older girls are that they now have this opprotunity……
I think we’ve beaten this bush to death and now we will let the results do the talking.
Have a wonderful weekend…
AZ, Total transparency or not? Otherwise something is wrong somewhere. Names of each successful Shidduch publicized from Day 1!
No girls who were waiting for their Bashert for years and it finally came through the NASI initiative, would want to keep it a secret from other suffering older girls, and chas v shalom not do whatever they can to encourage more! Id personally bli-neder contribute to finding a poor girl a Shidduch, but only if I see total transparency! Others might want to as well! Dont discourage us! When people see a vital cause as successful, open and honest, they become very generous. You’ve got your finger on a vital cause, now all you have to be is successful, open and honest. May we ALL SEE results CLEARLY, b’Karov, with the help of Hashem.
mss: oh i have no doubt that within a short period of time you will be one of the shadchanim on the list (if you aren’t already).
But don’t be bashful. There are already over 70 approved shadhchanim who will receive the list tomorrow, with another 20+ shadchanim pending approval.
keep on cheerleading……
And if you only knew how thrilled the older girls are that they now have this opprotunity……”
So YOU say (but what else COULD you be expected to say?). The only opportunity they have is to be asked to be parted from money they may not have. If those same girls would have been redt shidduchim by those wonderful, amazing shadhchanim (you hold in such thrall)to begin with, maybe they would not now be older singles.
You have a wonderful weekend, too.
It is a vicious cycle. Over worked, under appreciated and probably under compensated (possibly even never compensated) shadchanim, working harder and harder to make shidduchim, and as parnassah dictates will go after the lowest hanging fruit (the “easy” girls). On the other hand, more and more girls growing older with less and less interest from shadchanim, resulting in even more nervous, or even hysterical people making even more phone calls and further badgering the already over worked under appreciated and under paid shadchanim. The cycle has to be broken somewhere, why not with monetary carrot dangled in front of shadchanim? I admit, I think the idea stinks, but a bad idea such as this is probably better than nothing at all. Anyone have a better solution? Spit it out.
If you yourself are not doing anything about helping the shidduchim situation, don’t criticize those who are putting in their time and effort in project nasi.
For those who are complaining about the money….we spend at least twenty thousand dollars for seminary in Israel. Isn’t getting them married just as important?
thank you and have a good shabbos.
apushatayid:
“The cycle has to be broken somewhere, why not with monetary carrot dangled in front of shadchanim”
Einstein once said “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”
Using more money as an incentive isn’t breaking the cycle, just adds a larger monetary reward to a cycle which is broken. How about changing the actual process.
Since everyone is claiming that older girls are harder to get married, how about after a certain age the girls and guys bypass the shadchanim and try to meet on their own accord (through friends and family or just meeting a nice guy on the street) and going out that way.
Personally, I prefer to meet a girl on my own instead of through a shadchan, less “broken telephone” that way. Plus, there are no intrusions by shadchanim, who want to do the right thing, but come over as pushy and inconsiderate.
“Do you really want the gedolei hador to start making mandatory takanos?”
Why not? Haven’t they done so already many times regarding Internet usage, Lipa Schmeltzer concerts, and so forth?
“For those who are complaining about the money….we spend at least twenty thousand dollars for seminary in Israel. Isn’t getting them married just as important?’
Imaofthree, I NEVER spent that kind of money on Seminary for ANY of my kids. One daughter went on a very well-deserved full scholarship, B”H, but we could not afford to send our other two daughters, so they did not. One son received an almost total scholarship, and the other a total scholarship for two years. Had the yeshivos they attended not been so inclined to help us, we could not have afforded to send them, either. Not eveyone has a spare 20K lying around, or the resources to borrow that sum of money. To answer your last question however, getting them married is WAY MORE important than going to Seminary for a year. Nowadays however, many people do not want to hear about a shidduch with a girl who did not go.
“many people do not want to hear about a shidduch with a girl who did not go.”
Their loss. And serves them right, for being so narrow-minded. Not to worry; there are PLENTY of people (myself included) who are ready to think out of the box, and a girl without a seminary pin on her lapel is just as interesting (and in many ways, more so) than the girl that “did her year”.
BPT, I had to log in to comment, even right before Shabbos.
Yes, how right you are! Many are too focused on the list of things a Shidduch HAS to have, and now, the list the single is on or isnt on! Outrageous! Power to you!
That will make them a better wife/mother? Oy vey.
oomis:
“Why not? Haven’t they done so already many times regarding Internet usage, Lipa Schmeltzer concerts, and so forth? “
I think this very comment by you answers your question as to why there wasn’t a push for a takana about what shadchanim should our shouldn’t do…. no need to further elaborate, and certainly not in this fourm.
Most can. As for those who can’t, you’re invited to raise money; I’m sure NASI will take your donations and sponsor those who can’t afford it (contact NASI to verify, I’m just guessing).
if we charge based on hardship they should really be paying at lest double.)
Interesting – so you think the shadchanus is too low. Again, contact NASI with your suggestion to raise it.
“Do you really want the gedolei hador to start making mandatory takanos?”
Why not? Haven’t they done so already many times regarding Internet usage, Lipa Schmeltzer concerts, and so forth?
Were you honestly pleased with those “takanos”? (I’m wondering, if you are, how you manage to post here without internet)?.
DY,
Were you honestly pleased with those “takanos”?
How is Rabbonim signing a letter advocating an organization, drastically different than Rabbonim making Takanos? Either you like empowering Rabbonim and you like your life being controlled by Rabbonim (hopefully we all do), or you dont. What is this “pick and choose” tone youre employing here?
Were you honestly pleased with those “takanos”? (I’m wondering, if you are, how you manage to post here without internet)?.
Of course I was not pleased. I thought that in the case of Lipa Schmeltzer especially, it was unwarranted. But these same rabbonim have the power to make a meaningful takana, if they already feel the need to do so in other areas. Why are shidduchim any less important that a music concert?
BPT…”(myself included) who are ready to think out of the box, and a girl without a seminary pin on her lapel is just as interesting (and in many ways, more so) than the girl that “did her year”. (quote)
Good to know.
Most can. As for those who can’t, you’re invited to raise money; I’m sure NASI will take your donations and sponsor those who can’t afford it (contact NASI to verify, I’m just guessing).”
DY, you are making assumptions that you have no right to make. No one has the right to look in other people’s pockets to see what they can or cannot afford. And no one is raising money for other people’s shidduchim (at least not on a regular basis), because they are possibly already supporting their married children, donating to hachnossas kallah general funds, supporting yeshivos and/or paying tuition, etc. They are not looking to spot an older single girl (or the MANY that exist) $10K to pay her shadchan in advance, and it is a little naive (or maybe you were just being a little cavalier)to suggest that as a response to Modern’s pertinent comment.
MSS: how is a rov endorsing a progam the equiavlent of “your life being controlled by Rabbonim”. I frankly i don’t think anyone (nor the ribbono shel olam) want out lives being controlled by anyone. HE wants each and everyone of us to take control and responsibility for our own lives.
Seek guidance, certainly, control, certainly not.
Anyone, the rabbonim endorsing the program don not in anyway dictate that someone shoudl or must join the program. They are saying they thinks it’s a good idea, and they are comforable with who and how it is being run.
So yeah, it’s DRASTICALLY different. If i need to explain further, then maybe i’m begining to understand someting….
DY: the program and the contreact cerainly allows for third parties (friends/relatives etc.) to sponsor participants.
“Most can.”
That is where NASI is the MOST WRONG of everything that it does.
How is Rabbonim signing a letter advocating an organization, drastically different than Rabbonim making Takanos?
Mandatory vs. optional
Either you like empowering Rabbonim and you like your life being controlled by Rabbonim (hopefully we all do), or you dont. What is this “pick and choose” tone youre employing here?
See the post following yours for the response by the one my post was addressed to.
Of course I was not pleased.
Well, then, I don’t think you can have it both ways.
Midwest/oomis:
NASI never said most can. DY isn’t NASI.
That legitimate point has bee addressed numberous times in this forum as well as other media. In fact a few of the rabbonim who endorse the program raised that very question. Only after hearing a very satisfactory resonse did they lend their endorsement to the program.
NASI never said most can. DY isn’t NASI.”
FTR, I did not accuse NASI of that – I was responding to DY alone. However, that being siad, NASI certainly comes across as being of the belief that most girls can raise that type of cash on what appears to be a moment’s notice. If that is not NASI’s intention, then they have gone about this in a less than ideal way.
NASI never said most can. DY isn’t NASI.
That legitimate point has bee addressed numberous times in this forum as well as other media. In fact a few of the rabbonim who endorse the program raised that very question. Only after hearing a very satisfactory resonse did they lend their endorsement to the program.
Can you please refresh our memories. I think many here would want to hear exactly how Rabbonim were satisfied with the Klal’s involvement in this, where the rich can afford it a lot easier than the poor, and will thereby give the poor very much less opportunities, if the NASI initiative ends up being a viable long term operation.
Thanks in advance.
Is it possible that some Rabbonim backed NASI’s new initiative because they realize that the Shidduch matzav is Gehenom for girls, and better to do something, even if it’s clearly imperfect and counterproductive for some (leaving poor girls more behind than before), than do nothing?
Money talks and the poor guy walks. Always been that way, and apparently always will. Sad, though, because it is the older single girl who does not have that money who really needs that extra measure of help in finding a shidduch.
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