November 6, 2011 5:18 am at 5:18 am #847770real-briskerMember
DY – 🙁 C`mon I miss the good old days.November 6, 2011 5:19 am at 5:19 am #847771GM1Member
It is very sad to read some of the ‘not so nice’ posts here. NASI is only trying to help alleviate the plight of singles, with the crazy shidduch world that is out there. Noone ever said one MUST join this project. If you are not for this initiative, simply don’t join. As someone who knows who is behind NASI, I know that they are so involved in trying to change the shidduch system, only for the sake of the klal, and their motivations are solely L’shem Shamayim. I don’t necessarily agree with all the details of this program, but I definitely appreciate and respect NASI for trying to help alleviate the plight of singles. It gives those of us who are ‘in the parsha’ much chizuk knowing that there are dedicated indivduals who are trying to change the system for the better. But, we all know that the ultimate shidduch comes from davening and pouring oneself out in tefillah to the the Master Shadchan.November 6, 2011 5:21 am at 5:21 am #847772
To the contrary- because the boys have a long list of names in their shidduch notebook,, the likelihood of a boy saying yes is much slimmer then that of a girl saying yes, so it makes sense to first see if the boy will agree to go out, before making the girl go crazy doing research just to have the boy reject her. The supply and demand equation is devastating for girls.
Ofcourse- “For example, if there are 500 older single girls and 300 older single guys (most of whom dont want to be limited to dating their age girls), the girls are stuck, any which way, whether they pay or not!!!”
True, however, if the 300 older guys marry 300 youger girls, than all 500 older girls are out of luck, whereas if they marry older girls, there’s 300 fewer older girls left behind.November 6, 2011 5:29 am at 5:29 am #847773
DY- Thank you, that makes sense.November 6, 2011 5:36 am at 5:36 am #847774MiddlePathParticipant
A previous post from aries:
“Why is it that boys only want to date and marry younger girls. Here is one reason. They are NOT on the same intellectual level as girls their own age. A 25 year old boy is just getting their feet wet in the real world. Well not in the real world, but taking a few hours out of yeshiva learning for dating purposes. While girls their own age have finished college and are working for many years. They are educated, established and know what they want. They are NOT on the same level and would have nothing in common and nothing to talk about. They are not on the same intellectual or maturity level, so boys are looking for girls that are basically on the same level as they are.
Boys who are educated and are on the same level are NOT afraid to date someone who are at their age level or even older because they are looking for intelligent, educated and confident women who can keep up with them and their friends.”
Aries, I felt the need to repost your post because I agree with it so much that I felt it should be said twice. And maybe soon I’ll repost it again, because maybe it should be said three times. You are absolutely right.November 6, 2011 5:40 am at 5:40 am #847775popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Yes, I agreed with that post from aries also, but I wasn’t sure what the point was.
We all know that girls mature faster than boys. But that is just the way it is. The 20 year old guy is not immature, he is a 20 year old guy. He is acting age appropriate.November 6, 2011 5:51 am at 5:51 am #847776MiddlePathParticipant
popa, while that is true to an extent, I still think many many guys could be so much more responsible, mature, and ready for marriage than they actually are, if they put any effort into it at all.November 6, 2011 5:57 am at 5:57 am #8477772qwertyParticipant
1)Something has to be done to improve this “crisis”.
2)No one wants to invest so much money especially with an organization they don’t trust.
What if each girl would give this money to her local Shul to hold in escrow? I know this isn’t a perfect solution but I’m just opening the door for others to come up with a better plan.November 6, 2011 5:59 am at 5:59 am #847778AZParticipant
even i know how to cut and paste
did you notice there is no address on the ad where to send money????????
NOT A PENNY OF A GIRL can be sent in (even is she tried) until the financials are set and airtight. Girls that are asking to join aer being told to not send in any money. They are in the process of receiving guidance from experts in the field (lawyers/accountans/ etc) how to set it up in a NO QUESTION ABOUT IT system.
A sytem that is trasparent, secure, with effiienct and trustworthy oversight.
once that is in place it will be publicized. Then and only then will girls be given instructions where to send the money.
NASI understood it would take a while until the program got traction. They assumed it would take a good few weeks until the first 50 singed up. During that time they planned and are working on getting the financials in place. This way it can all come togehter.November 6, 2011 6:01 am at 6:01 am #847779AZParticipant
When you have a moment, scroll up a few posts and you’ll see the answer to your questionNovember 6, 2011 6:15 am at 6:15 am #847780Kshmo Kein HuMember
Why don’t we just eliminate the middlemen and just pay the boys directly for dating the girls? $200 bucks for taking out a 22 year old, $300 for a 24 year old, $500 for a 26 year old… Increase by $50 for each year of ascending age…
Father opens door, shakes shalom aleichem, and hands boy the cash as the carrot that brought him through the door. I think this could work.
Now that’s what I call Cash On Delivery.November 6, 2011 10:17 am at 10:17 am #847781kapustaParticipant
I didn’t read most of the posts on this thread so I apologize if I’m repeating something. I just wanted to make one comment. NASI is based on closing the age gap (aka encouraging girls to date later). The new “system” doesn’t apply to me yet, and when I first saw the ad, the first thought that went through my head was to get married before it does. Obviously, I’m not the One pulling the strings, but I seriously doubt I’m the only one with this thought. If that is the case, NASI was just thrown out the window.November 6, 2011 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #847782bestmommyParticipant
AZ – so all you’re saying is that honesty isn’t the priority for you. Although, in reality, you don’t owe me anything b/c it was the first program, I would really warn anyone I know aobut entrusting your cause with thousands of $$$.November 6, 2011 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #847783emesvyatzivParticipant
The reason that the Chasidim do not have this issue is because they do not expect the girl to support for years and years. If the boy is staying in learning it is a shared burden from both sides.November 6, 2011 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #847784
I think at some point Nasi has to realize that their new plan is SADDENING more people than GLADDENING.November 6, 2011 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #847785
MiddlePath, aries-“They are NOT on the same intellectual level as girls their own age.”
True, and as aries pointed out this is a result of not having experienced the “real world”, however by 25 they will not be more mature then they were at 20 since they are still lacking the outside experience, and going out into the world and leaving koslei hayishiva is not an option either therefore they will simply have to get married and grow on the job.November 6, 2011 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #847786
BSD, but the system has sent girls out into the real world. The system has sent girls to college to earn careers so that they can support their husbands. The system has educated the girls and left the boys behind. This is how the system has made them unequal and imbalanced. The system itself has kept these boys from growing and maturing.
As for NASI, I ask again, since I wasn’t answered, both sides have to pay shadchanus so why aren’t the fees for the boys listed as well? This would make it more palatable and fair for all? Obviously a 25 year old girl will not be set up with a young man younger than 27 so he is also considered an “alte bochur”. So why pick on the girls and make this just a girl’s crisis? If there are unmarried girls out there it stands to reason that there are unmarried boys out there, or what would be the point of this project? So be fair and post the fees for the boys as well. Let them sign up and you already have a pool of candidates.November 6, 2011 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #847787
Although you’re right that it would be more fair and equitable to have the boys put money in escrow as well, the point here isn’t fairness, it’s solving a problem. The problem is the larger # of girls than boys, and the laws of “supply and demand”, unfortunately, are against the girls.
Your earlier point, if I understand it correctly, about the boys being less mature than the girls at the same age, is quite valid, and pba’s objection is misguided. Certainly, the argument can be made that it’s not a good idea for a 22 year old boy to marry a 22 year old girl because she’s been “around the block” more than he. Whether he’s to blame, or is simply acting “age appropriate”, is irrelevant. However this must be weighed against the age gap problem, and apparently, many great people who have agreed to the goal of closing the age gap feel that we can save the suffering of many bnos Yisroel without seriously compromising on sholom bayis.
I wish to disagree, however with your choice of terminology when you write “The system itself has kept these boys from growing and maturing”. Although there may be some degree of delay in the ability to handle responsibility in “mili d’alma” (worldly matters), the system is designed for, and for the most part is successful at, promoting growth and maturity in Torah and yiras shomayim.November 6, 2011 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #847788apushatayidParticipant
BSD. I disagree. Since boys know they can take their sweet time and always have another name replace one that falls off his list, they do in fact drag their feet, holding up girls of any age, from dating in the process. If there is a “yes” from a girl, and he still drags his feet, he loses this chance and the shadchan will take the girl elsewhere. The point is to get girls dating and married.November 6, 2011 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #847789
If a boy takes his time to say yes, the girl is free to go out with someone else, since she never made any commitment, and may never have even heard the name. Had she already agreed to go out, she would have to wait for a response and would meanwhile be tied down.November 6, 2011 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #847790
DY, I guess we will have to disagree because the system does NOT teach the boys to respect their mothers, to help at home, to help prepare for Shabbos, etc. The system teaches the boys to expect and they will receive. How many young men pick themselves up off their chairs and lend a hand? They expect their mothers and sisters to do everything for them. How many young men help without being asked? How many young men offer to run errands instead of hang out with their own friends and concentrate only on their own needs and what “Mommy” can do for them? How many young men call their hosts before shabbos to see if there is anything they can help with, especially when they are regular guests?
Why aren’t they taught responsibility, respect, hakaros hatov? All values that would help shape them and help them mature and grow. By feeding them the concept “expect and you will receive” it just allows them to be immature and unrealistic.November 6, 2011 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #847791
What system? The yeshiva system? The yeshiva boys I know practice all of the things you’ve mentioned to a higher degree than the boys who are not in yeshiva. The Torah itself teaches these things, and in my experience, serious talmidim practice what they learn.
Of course, in our generation there’s less respect for parents and elders than in previous generations, and even b’nei Torah are nebach affected, but they’re still better than their counterparts who dropped out!November 7, 2011 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #847792yeshivabochur123Participant
please explain to me because I’m still not understanding , if the problem was the age gap that would mean the previous generations who did not have this problem all married people closer in age to them. We see this is not true. I think the problem is that it’s easier to be a good girl than a. good guy. Bais yaakovs have done a tremendous job convincing every girl that she needs a boy who will learn forever. This is what girls look for until they settle. Not enough guys want to be long time full time learners especially if girl cant support. how will marry close in age solve this problemNovember 7, 2011 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #847793
An age gap by itself would not cause a problem; it’s the age gap coupled with a population which increases every year, ka”h, which is currently to a degree which we’ve probably not had since Mitzrayim.November 7, 2011 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #847794
In Europe 10+ children was quite common. So there was certainly at least as much, if not more, population growth. And as others pointed out, there was an age gap there too, as it wasn’t uncommon for notably older bochurim (or even widowers) to marry considerably younger brides. So the question still remains, what’s new in the 21st century that makes this a new problem? The suggestion that the problem was simply ignored (or oblivious) for hundreds of years, and simply allowed to fester, doesn’t shtim.November 7, 2011 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #847795apushatayidParticipant
DY. So, please explain why the girl cant get the name first?November 7, 2011 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #847796oomisParticipant
After reading their so-called explanation in which they claimed to have turned around the negative opinions of their many critics AND compared themselves to Eliyahu Hanavi, I have come to the same conclusion as my original opinion. This is APPALLING, insulting, demeaning, and the most terrible example of mercenary greed I have ever heard of. Financially-strapped girls and their parents, do not stand a chance, even if I thought this idea had any merit whatsoever. And I do not.November 7, 2011 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #847797
I wouldn’t say “can’t”, I just think that in general, it’s unwise, because the chances of the girl getting a “no” are great, and why make her feel bad unnecessarily? Even before we, as a society, came to the realization that there’s a numbers disparity, this was the typical approach, because the feeling is that a girl is likely to take rejection harder than a boy.November 7, 2011 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #847798
In an earlier post, I explained why I don’t think they’re comparing themselves to Eliyahu Hanavi.November 7, 2011 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #847799
We b”H have better health care than we did in Europe, and fewer pogroms.November 7, 2011 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #847800gavra_at_workParticipant
In Europe 10+ children was quite common. So there was certainly at least as much, if not more, population growth. And as others pointed out, there was an age gap there too, as it wasn’t uncommon for notably older bochurim (or even widowers) to marry considerably younger brides. So the question still remains, what’s new in the 21st century that makes this a new problem? The suggestion that the problem was simply ignored (or oblivious) for hundreds of years, and simply allowed to fester, doesn’t shtim.
Lower childbearing mortality. I do admit that if 2% (just making up a number) of women die in childbirth, then the crisis would not exist (as is now).November 8, 2011 1:14 am at 1:14 am #847801
It was quite common for families in Europe to have 10 surviving children that reached adulthood and got married. To speculate that we have a higher growth rate in the 21st century than there was in the early 20th century and earlier seems speculative. I would posit the opposite, especially considering their was little or no ‘family planning’ back then. So, again, I still don’t see what relevant demographics exist today could account for an age gap issue that was not present for hundreds of years prior.
As far as pogroms, I don’t see any reason to speculate that the antisemites targeted men over women. Same with health problems. Again, from personal family history (on both sides) as well as a general knowledge of Jewish history, having 10 married siblings was not uncommon in the least.November 8, 2011 2:44 am at 2:44 am #847802
Doswin, some other factors that make the situation now totally different than in pre-war Europe, is the singles then not dating for unlimited amount of years. I’ve never heard of that happening. Whoever the parents felt was the right one, was the one. So people werent “wise guys” and “wise girls”… They didnt philosophize and analyze as much, if at all. A nice boy/girl from a nice family, etc was all that was needed. People didnt get old and gray with their kids rejecting and being rejected. The main problem some singles had was money/dowry.November 8, 2011 4:12 am at 4:12 am #847803
yeshivabochur123, in previous generations it was not proper for young women to go to college and get careers. Their jobs were to be good mothers and wives. And therefore they were NOT on such a higher intellectual and mature, sophisticated and polished level than their counterparts. They married young to spouses their own age who didn’t know much more than they did, and they grew up together.November 8, 2011 5:05 am at 5:05 am #847804
Doswin, As far as pogroms, I don’t see any reason to speculate that the antisemites targeted men over women.
I see you’re missing my point. Age gap alone doesn’t account for a gender disparity, it’s only a factor if there’s also an ongoing population increase. The higher mortality rate, caused by a multiplicity of factors including pogroms, and incurable illness (both which don’t necessarily distinguish between the genders), would all contribute to a lower rate of population increase, and, hence, a smaller or nonexistent gender disparity.November 8, 2011 6:09 am at 6:09 am #847805
The age difference between single men and women must have been smaller, bec most got married early (very soon after becoming Shidduch age), I believe. No singles dated for multiple years. Am I right?November 8, 2011 6:41 am at 6:41 am #847806
Doswin “So the question still remains, what’s new in the 21st century that makes this a new problem?”
You are making a false presumption. I know from speaking with elderly family members from that generation that there was a major issue in di heim as well.November 8, 2011 6:54 am at 6:54 am #847807old manParticipant
Please read some history books, and I don’t mean ArtScroll. Go through the last thousand years and see what really happened in different time periods. The conclusion will become obvious and it is simple:
The Jewish people never had it better than they do today. The shidduch situation is better today than ever before. Period.November 8, 2011 6:57 am at 6:57 am #847808
apushatayid “If there is a “yes” from a girl, and he still drags his feet, he loses this chance and the shadchan will take the girl elsewhere.”
Which girl hasn’t heard the following:
“We heard such nice things about the family, but the boy is busy, so tell her not to wait, if he becomes available (and she makes it some where remotely near the top of his megila of names) we will get back to you.” This way he has no pressure despite that she gave a yes and he still hasn’t burned his bridge. Meanwhile she did exhausting research and invested emotion and now feels rejected. Supply and demand dictates that the ball is in his court.
I do agree that it may move her higher on his list knowing that she already said yes, but it certainly does not put him against the wall.
If this is going to change we need to do something radical. (and at the same time proceed with caution so it’s done right)November 8, 2011 7:15 am at 7:15 am #847809
aries-“The system itself has kept these boys from growing and maturing.”
Age gap has little bearing on this problem.
DaasYochid-“the yeshiva boys I know practice all of the things you’ve mentioned to a higher degree than the boys who are not in yeshiva. The Torah itself teaches these things, and in my experience, serious talmidim practice what they learn.”
To a big degree you are right, especially regarding serious bochurim, but not all bochurim are serious, and even for those who are, there is something about being out there and having to please bosses, customers etc, work hard, be limaasadick, that makes a person grow.
That being said, todays working environmr=ent is dangerous for an unanchored bochur. Torah im derech erets is not yet an option. Maybe schools should start sensitivity training from 9th grade-spend more time on mussar etc. and at 19 or 20 focus it more towards the mentchlachkeit aspects of marriage. Why do they have to wait until he is a chosson, and then give him a crash course on middos when he has 100 other things on his mind? Teach specifics on how to treat and understand a wife, in-laws, not to have an “es kimt mich” attitude regarding support etc.November 8, 2011 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #847811
Dear Moderator: I typed a rather leghnthy reply (approx. 4 hours ago) to multiple questions above, in this thread. It seems to have disappeared into a black hole. I don’t think there was anything remotely objectionable. Perhaps it was deleted in error? If there was s/t slightly off, perhaps you can edit the minor and post it?
Much thanks.November 8, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #847812modche1Member
I am not going to discuss why the problem started and where the problem is in this post .I am going to discuss why i think this org. Nasi is a good wake up call for people who know how to deal with people and have the patience to get abused and not appreciated for their time and effort on trying to red shidduchim.Unfortunatly many people tried to red shidduchim ,they start out strong and determined to makeit work,i have to tell you in every 20 people that start redding i would say 0 stay in it ,not for the buisness and not for the mitzva or the chesed .Itis probably easier to work for Hatzalah or any other chesed org.than to be a shadchan.Who ever does not agree with me was never a shadchan.Saying this i have to say that the only way to make it work and for shadchanim to stay in the buisness is to run it like a buisness.People dont realize this job is 7 days from the morning when you start daf yomi at 5.00am till 130 in the morning ,every simcha ,walking in the street and where ever else you are.When you finnaly red a shidduch its not over you are their coach their mentor their therapist and their personal counsler how they should deal with rejection .Do this for 1 month then voice your opinion .On the dollar amount i am not going to discuss ,but please a girl that is 29 ,and that has been working for 10 years and did not put away money has issues to deal with and should be happy to part with the amounts that nasi came up with.Dealing with older boys and girls are harder and the shadchanim deserve itNovember 8, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #847813
Certainly, I didn’t mean that every yeshiva bochur has perfected his middos. I agree with your post.
Regarding the previous post, and whether there was a gender disparity issue in “di heim”, a few old-timers who may have recalled some alte meidlach does not convince me, but even if true, it’s really a side point. There are definitely more available girls today than boys, and whether or not this issue existed is irrelevant. I know some might argue that the gedolim of the past did not deal with the issue, but that’s a “kasha oif a mayseh” because our generation’s leaders have encouraged closing the gap.November 8, 2011 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #847814
modche1, I have been a Shadchan for many years and what you say about Shadchanim getting frustrated is true. People are very warm and fuzzy when you spend time with them before the Shidduch. After you make the Shidduch, they avoid you, many times.
But the main problem is having 10 girls or more for every guy (working OR learning). Only G-d knows the definite reason for this.
Otherwise, Id forgive and forget the nasty ones, and I’d make Shidduchim day and night, and so would many other Shadchanim. We dont have enough male material.November 8, 2011 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #847815rcParticipant
granted. the shadchanim need better pay, but why on earth do they need it up front, and why is the girl paying both sides shadchanus.? and why that much? no one has answered that yet. I again, compare it to a real estate agent, she can either spend days and weeks on end showing me properties and i buy nothing at all, or she can take the time to get to know my wants and needs, and use her skill to show me properties that suit me to a tee, and i make a quick purchase, and she gets her commission. Its simple really… THe bigger problem, is the disconnect between the boys’ lists and girls sitting week after week without a yes. Thats the problem that needs to be solved, not forcing 20 yr old boys to marry 24 yr old girls which is ridiculous. at best!November 8, 2011 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #847816gavra_at_workParticipant
An additional point:
I actually do know a number of single boys. They are either:
1: Looking for full time support (and are not getting it as of yet)
2: Not interested in marrying someone who will make them go to minyan 3 times a day.
One of the problems is that girls can’t afford the former, nad are unwilling to marry the latter.November 8, 2011 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #847817onTheListMember
I’m a 22 year old girl and I am on The List.and I’m okay with it! No I’m not horrified,disgusted,etc. Nor do I feel like an old maid. I simply saw the ad, and asked my Rav if if I should be doing this sort of hishtadlus. He answered a long answer, and said yes,based on todays crazy times in regard to shidduchim-sometimes drastic measures are necessary. And no one is forcing anyone to sign up! She who can and wants to-fine! Its horrible to bash something just because it LOOKS and SOUNDS insane. Give it a chance.there’s a good,smart man behind it. Someone who will get a lot of schar in olam habaa.November 8, 2011 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #847818modche1Member
To jl which shadchan that you know gets paid before?How can you compare a real estate agent to a shadchan.!!!!!!!! a agent gets a draw with a commission and they will not call him at home at 1 in the morning .It is not a emotional situation dealing with feelings and 2 families.You were probably never involved in shadchanus.Thats why their are more agents than shadchanim.Their is no quick purchases in shiduchim Unfortunatly i see the only solution in getting girls dates is by giving a insentive to the shadchanim.It doesnt sound good but right now it is critical and we need more serious shadchanimNovember 8, 2011 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #847819
OfCourse, do you advertise? How do people know who the shadchanim are? is it only from word of mouth? I am sure there are many shadchanim out there but no one knows them, they only know the famous ones. Why not have a list of shadchanim posted on this website and on Only Simchas, on the g’mach lists, etc.November 8, 2011 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #847820gefenParticipant
This whole game plan is NASIating!!!!!!!!!!!!
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