I can only try:
“Here is the אגרות משה that you quoted:
ובדבר להקטין אש הגעז ביו"ט אם עדיף ממכבה
לגמרי, איני רואה בזה טעם שיהיה עדיף דבהקטנה
הוא ג"כ מכבה כמו מכבה לגמרי ויש אצלי חדוש גדול
ואיני רוצה לכתוב זה בכתב”
Thanks, that was a beautiful copy and paste and why can’t I do that?
It’s funny, when I copy and paste your post to WORD, the Hebrew is pasted backwards but when I do the same thing to the CR Reply, it’s ok. Any suggestions?
Rav PM wonders why Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen, a talmud of Rav Moshe ZT"L, who has written seforim on Hilchos Shabbos and YT, makes no mention of Rav Moshe's ZT"L shita?
Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen is B”H also around, so ask him. Also, the Piskei Teshuvos does allude to the shita.
One must wonder why Rav PM always refers to Rav Moshe ZT"L as Reb Moshe (except when he’s quoting me); is this the way you show kavode hatorah to the gadol and posek hador? And what about Rav Shimon Eider ZT”L and Rav Simcha Bunim Cohen; they get an “R'” rating from the CR Rav.
cherrybim,
More?! Do you know PM from real life, and have some sort of grudge against him?! Enough with the sarcasm! Is it worth it to lose all dignity to pursue this one-sided "fight"?
cherrybim-
One of the “fun” things about computers is the surprises they spring on you.
I have the same issue on my work PC, but on my home PC the Hebrew cuts-and-pastes OK.
My guess is that it is because my home PC has the latest version of Adobe’s reader.
BTW – Rav Heineman’s teshuva cut-and-pasted fine, but the Igros Moshe paragraph pasted with four or five errors that I had to fix. I have no idea why this is so.
I can only try: What’s your make of the p’sak from The 39 Melochos? the p'sak throws technology out the window because the issue is covered within a simple framework of halacha.
cherrybim-
The way I understand Rabbi Ribiat's statement is that a major loss – a hefsed meruba – is what allows the gas to be turned off in this case. I am inferring this from his specifically giving a case of the fire having blown out, where a fire or explosion could result if the gas isn't cut off. If he meant any monetary loss would allow the gas to be cut off, he could just give a case where the burner is still lit, and this will prevent the monetary loss of the gas bill being higher.
The nafka mina between what “PM” explained and your quote of Rabbi Ribiat, is according to “PM”s pshat turning off the knob would be OK if you could do so quickly enough that the ignitor doesn’t spark, but according to Rabbi Ribiat, it would be allowed regardless.
I don’t understand something though. If the reason Rabbi Ribiat allows the gas to be cut off is because of hefsed, why only in the case of a fire that has blown out?
If he allows it only when it has blown out, shouldn’t it be OK because of sakana? A gas leak is about the most dangerous situation I can think of.
cherrybim: If the reason for Reb Moshe's heter is "extinguishing without a wick is not kibuyi", would it be permitted to turn off a gas burner or electric light on Shabbos as well??? If there is no melacha of kibuyi involved, why not? "
Probably because the melacha of cooking is ONLY permissible on Yom Tov (and is therefore referred to not as melacha, but as meleches avoda, and that is the only reason the use of the stove is permitted. It's totally and unquestionably assur to use a fire for cooking on Shabbos, so the inyan of kibui is irrelevant also. If the cooking is the issue at hand, then the kibui is secondary to that. If cooking were not one of the L"T melachos, it takeh might be a different idea.
I can only try: Last night I was in the Bais Medrish and was exhausted and I wrote down the quote from Rabbi Ribiat's saifer and rewrote in the post when I got home.
Unfortunately, I’m sorry and please forgive me everyone, I see now that I omitted some prior lines which I will insert in CAPITAL LETTERS. I think these lines address your concerns:
“IN MODELS WHERE THE IGNITION ACTIVATES AT A LOW FLAME, THERE WOULD BE A PROBLEM IF ONE NEEDS TO TURN THE KNOB PAST THAT POINT WHILE SHUTTING THE GAS OF THE UNLIT BURNER. TURNING THE KNOB WOULD INEVITABLY CAUSE A SPARK, HENCE A P’SIK REISHA OF MAVIER. NEVERTHELESS, ONE IS PERMITTED TO SHUT THE GAS, NOT ONLY IF THERE IS FEAR OF A POSSIBLE DANGER, BUT EVEN IF THERE IS MERELY A FINANCIAL LOSS, BECAUSE THE INEVITABLE MELOCHO CONSEQUENCE, I.E. THE SPARK, IS NOT DESIRED.”
"If the flame of a gas range blows out on Shabbos, one is permitted to shut of the gas to prevent it from escaping.
A situation where the inevitable Melocho consequence of a permissible act is not desired is known as a P’sik Reisha D’lo Neicha Lei. In this case, turning the knob is the permissive act, while the inevitable resultant spark is the undesired Melocho consequence.
Ordinarily, a P’sik Reisha D’lo Neicha Lei is forbidden on Shabbos. However, it is permitted when necessary to avoid financial loss.
In conclusion, one is permitted to rotate the knob of a gas range in order to shut off the gas flow, even if this action will momentarily activate the electronic ignition along the way.”
oomis1105: You make some very good and interesting points and have a very keen understanding of the issues. Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable CRers will be able to give us a more thorough answer in terms of the other melachos and muktze issues involved on Shabbos when shutting off a gas flame.
cherrybim-
Thank you for filling that in.
So basically you're saying that according to Rabbi Ribiat, a psik raisha delo nicha lai (which is what the sparking ignitor when shutting a burner is) is not a problem, and therefore even if one couldn't shut the gas quickly enough to avoid activating the ignitor, it would not be a problem in itself (putting aside any issues of lowering/snuffing the flame itself on Yom Tov).
That sounds like a logical deduction, based on his psik raisha explanation of the gas control on Shabbos.
oomis: Thank you very much for reading my posts and responding to the points I bring. Certainly it is true that one may not cook an a fire on Shabbos, but one could leave say a pot of chulent on the blech. According to cherrybim that there is no kibuyi w/o a wick, why couldn't one turn off the gas fire after serving the chulent? The issue of bishul is irrelevant, it is only an issur of kibuyi. Also, according to his position, why not turn off electric lights or heaters, as they also have no wick? Of course the obvious answer is that kibuyi is 100% relevant even w/o a wick, however it may be derabannan because of melacha sheina tzricha l'gufa.
Your point about muktza is excellent. Reb Moshe actually writes that one may not adjust the pins on a Shabbos clock because of muktza, and presumably the same may apply to the knobs of a stove. Since YT is even stricter then Shabbos regarding muktza, this would be an additional reason why it is forbidden to turn off the stove on YT when not for ochel nefesh purposes.
PM, in what ways is muktza stricter on YT?
PM,both bishul and any of its related actions are assur on Shabbos, whether kibui, stirring the food on the blech, adding cold to hot food while on the blech, putting raw food that was not cooked before Shabbos ont he blech, etc. All of that is muttar however, on Yom Tov, because they are actions needed for cooking, a meleches avoda which is 100% muttar to do on YT, though not on Shabbos. Also, turning the fire on and off is only muttar on YT when it relates to the cooking. You can't do it to heat up the room on a cold Sukkos day. Therefore, it would make no sense to say that kibui which is permitted on yt would be permitted likewise on Shabbos, since the permission for kibui on YT ONLY pertains to the cooking which is a permissible action. Since cooking is assur on Shabbos, any related action such as kibui would also have to be assur.
That is my understanding of this, and while it is true I did not learn gemarah and mishneh berura, etc., I grew up in a frum home, and learned from my mother and both grandmothers, just as she learned from hers before her, and my dad's sisters learned from their mother. If you think about it, all of the family kashrus is really for the most part dependent upon the eidus of the woman who run the household. We did not initially learn it from a sefer, we were taught by hands on mesorah what to do and how to properly do it, as well as what not to do.
Bemused: Where are you when Rav PM is being obnoxious? Do YOU have some sort of grudge against me?
oomis: "Therefore, it would make no sense to say that kibui which is permitted on yt would be permitted likewise on Shabbos"
You are 100% correct, but according to cherrybim turning off a gas fire IS NOT KIBUYI since it has no wick.
oomis writes: 'you cannot do it to heat up the room on a cold sukkos day". Don't bet on it. Iif you hold that "mitoch' allows you to do the melochos on yom tov even without oichel nefesh, as is the halocho, then heating up the room on a cold sukkos day would be allowed. It is "zorehc kzas' for sure and actually, we are all "sick' when it comes to cold. (hakol cholim eitzel tsinah) So your statement in this context is wrong.
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