Melacha Sh’einah Tzricha L’gufa

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  • #650849

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    BSD

    Joseph:

    Mekublani that this is the “Chiddush Gadol” that he states in the first teshuva on the topic. That does not mean people should go out & do so. I believe ICOT has it best; if you don’t have a specific Psak (also true in general), ask your rav & do not rely on the psakim meant for others (Either Chumrah OR Kulah).

    #650850

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Joseph – “cherrybim: We have been cited several times in this thread the chapter of the Igros Moshe supporting PM’s statement. Where is your citations of the Igros Moshe regarding your claims of Reb Moshe ZT’L? PM is certainly correct that you cannot rely on anonymous sources. At minimum you need to cite a verifiable Rav/Posek who will agree with your assertions regarding an unwritten psak of Reb Moshe.”

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=916&st=&pgnum=153

    #650851

    PM
    Member

    GAW: Could you please be more specific from whom you received your “Mekublani”? In any event gram kibuyi would not explain a difference between a pilot light and otherwise.

    #650852

    Bemused
    Participant

    cherrybim,

    “that PM is babbling about?”

    Inappropriate.

    #650853

    cherrybim
    Participant

    But there is no question that Rav Moshe’s ZT”L’s shita was that it was permissible on Yom Tov to lower and indeed shut the flame completely on gas ranges (no wick), even with no food, and indeed this is what Rav Moshe’s ZT”L and his family did.

    The Rav also said that many gas ranges today have an electronic ignition at the start of the knob so you have turn the knob off quickly in order to bypass the “click click” of the electronic ignition. I tried to do that and it works.

    Regardless, I was very impressed with PM’s b’kias in learning as well as ROB’s (is this m’shane shem?) and the back and forth banter of PM and ROB.

    Can’t wait or the next post.

    #650854

    PM
    Member

    cherrybim: I’ll respond to the substance of your arguments, but not to your crude style.

    Igros Moshe is not a sefer of theoretical logic, for that look in Dibros Moshe. Igros is Reb Moshe’s psakim halacha l’maaseh, and he writes that turning down a flame is NO BETTER then turning it off. If turning the fire off is already muttar, as you maintain, why bother??? It doesn’t need to be better, only the same.

    Additionally in the context of his other 2 teshuvos on the subject. Reb Moshe’s intentions are self-evident. If it is anyways muttar to turn off a gas range because of gram kibuyi, why does he need to write at length (to his grandson, who certainly qualifies as a “family member”)that it is “better” to turn down an existing flame l’tzorech ochel nefesh than to light a new one, if turning down the flame is muttar l’chatchila not just “better”??? Also, why delve at length into the idea of melacha sh’aina tzaricha l’gufa, if there is anyways no melacha involved???

    #650855

    PM
    Member

    cherrybim: How can quoting Igros Moshe be “espousing and spreading false halachic information concerning Rav Moshe ZT”L”???

    Re trust: It would not be halachicly responsible of me to trust someone I don’t know to quote anonymous “talmidim and family members” who contradict Reb Moshe’s published psak halacha l’maaseh. Do you really think otherwise???

    #650856

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I thank cherybim for the posting and I certainly am respectful of PM’s knowledge. Allow me to interject a possible compromise here. The gemoro ,at times, says, “halocho ve’ein morin ken”. It is the halocho but you don’t publicize the psak-for whatever reason it may be.

    I have to take cherrybim and others (oomis,gavra at work) at their word that this is what they heard from R’Moshe zz’l and his many followers. On the other hand, PM is ceertainly right that in his WRITTEN teshuvos, R’Moshe zz’l doesn’t differentiate between lowering the gas or turning off completely (see excerpt in the teshuvo mentioned). I can only assume that R’Moshe zz’l did think it was muttor and allowed some of his talmidim to pasken accordingly. Nonetheless, on the larger point of giving a blanket hetter, he demurred, so as not to go against the minhag hamokem.

    And R’Moshe zz’l did this many times. I clearly remember him writing a similar Psak on artificial insemination when he writes that it is muttor but that it is not to be publicized. Yes, I know, once the teshuvos were written, it became publc but chek out the teshuvos and you will see that when he wrote this, he meant it only for the people to whom he addressed the teshuvo.

    So, oomis is right in saying that this was the minhag on the lower east side (I imagine0 but PM has many written teshuvos on his side. All in all, this has been a wonderful posting-true “milchamto shel torah’.

    #650857

    cherrybim
    Participant

    PM-“Igros is Reb Moshe’s psakim halacha l’maaseh, and he writes that turning down a flame is NO BETTER then turning it off. If turning the fire off is already muttar, as you maintain, why bother??? It doesn’t need to be better, only the same.”

    Again, Rav Moshe is saying in his t’shuva: Don’t assume that lowering down the flame is any better than shutting it off completely. Rav Moshe is saying that if you’re going to hold that it’s assur to turn the flame off, then that same logic will determine that it’s assur to lower the flame as well.

    In the paragraph in question, Rav Moshe is not saying that this is his shita; only that in this scenario, the logic is flawed.

    Peace brother.

    #650858

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    PM: I’m not saying it would. That is a different discussion.

    #650859

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Rabbiofberlini – I didn’t thank you; you have the midda of Aaron Hacohen.

    Also, did you open my link? Were you aware of this site where you can read/download many thousands of s’farim and it’s free?

    #650860

    Bemused
    Participant

    cherrybim,

    ROB,PM, and ICOT are having an animated halachik discussion, with some additions by others. Your contributions minus the personalized and rude manner are appreciated as well, I’m sure.

    Please remember- this is not about “you”, it’s about the halacha. Enjoy the vibrant discussion, and reread your excellent contributions before you hit “send”, to edit out the personalized angle.

    A statement noting that anonymous Rabbanim cannot be used as a source in a halachik discussion in no way equates to usage of “babbling” or the like. You can do much better.

    #650861

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Bemused: Kol haposel b’mumo posel; you would do well to mind your own manners as well; unless of course if you’re the capo of the CR.

    Ok Rabbiofberlin, do your job.

    #650862

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    cherrybim- your contribution with the website is truly priceless. Thank you and yes- we should all try to go in the way of Aharon hakohen.

    #650863

    Bemused
    Participant

    Wow, cherrybim. I guess I hit a raw nerve. After you recover, I think you will naturally improve your interaction here. Hatzlacha.

    #650864

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Oh, by the way, talk about hashgacha p’ratis. I just got a phone call from a chaver of mine from out-of-town who called out of the blue and he received S’micha from Rav Moshe ZT”L as well; in the 1970’s (I don’t know why I didn’t think to call him before).

    Anyway, he immediately confirmed that everyone in the Yeshiva in that era knew of the shita; that without a pechem there’s no kibui.

    I don’t know why we needed all this machlokis; all anyone had to do was to talk to their Rav about the shita or ask anyone who was in MTJ.

    Thanks for your b’racha Bemused; you have a good Shabbos too. And good Shabbos to ROB and to all.

    #650865

    oomis
    Participant

    that without a pechem there’s no kibui.

    Could you please explain that in English? Thank you.

    #650866

    cherrybim
    Participant

    oomis1105: Sorry, the word I should have used was “p’sil(a)”, a wick.

    When there is no wick with a gas flame, there is no issur of extinguishing,kibui, on Yom Tov.

    #650867

    PM
    Member

    cherrybim: You failed to address my points.

    Since when is Igros Moshe a theoretical Sefer? Since when does he write in it sevaros that only apply if you don’t pasken like his shita? You only tried to answer 1:93, but what do you do with 1:115 and 4:103? He writes there to his grandson that it is better to turn down an existing flame l’tzorech ochel nefesh then to light a new smaller one, but it is assur to turn down a flame without ochel nefesh. Since when do we rely on anonymous rumors against what is written and published?

    #650868

    PM
    Member

    ROB: Your compimise of halacha v’ain morim kein is certainly a possibility, but it would mean that Reb Moshe would not have approved of an entire community relying on this as a blanket heter. However, it is equally possible that if Reb Moshe ever considered turning off the gas a gram was a tentative theory that he NEVER accepted as Halacha AT ALL.

    #650869

    PM
    Member

    cherrybim: Your conversation with another anonymous “talmid” UNDERMINES your position. To differentiate between a pesila and without is no secret chidush, look in the teshuvos I’ve quoted repeatedly where he uses this sevara to explain that kibuyi of gas is a melacha shaina tzricha l’gufa and therefore better when ochel nefesh then lighting a new flame. However, a MSETLG is certainly assur mi’Derabannan and grants NO JUSTIFICATION for turning off an oven on YT!!!

    #650870

    cherrybim
    Participant

    PM- “Your conversation with another anonymous “talmid” UNDERMINES your position.”

    I’m still waiting to hear fom Joseph about my offer to name the well known Rav and the retell the entire story to Joseph’s Rav. I’ll even name the Rav to your Rav or Bemused Rav or any Rav that anyone posts; this offer hardly undermines my position.

    Truth be told, if only I was told of Rav’s Moshe’s shita by a Rav, it would have been enough; I would not have to see or hear anything else and if some anonymous person were to claim on the internet claimed that it was all bunk, then so what?

    I haven’t even looked at the other mare m’komos yet because it doesn’t make a difference l’maise. But I will and let you know. But even without looking it uo, if I had to guess, I’d say the that Rav Moshe was referring to a scnerio where a wick was used. But again, it doesn’t make a difference.

    And PM, you failed to address my points,,,”I don’t know why we needed all this machlokis; all anyone had to do was to talk to their Rav about the shita or ask anyone who was in MTJ.”

    Well, have you?

    #650871

    oomis
    Participant

    When there is no wick with a gas flame, there is no issur of extinguishing,kibui, on Yom Tov.

    Thank you very much, Cherrybim.

    #650872

    Bemused
    Participant

    Hi cherrybim,

    I thank you for your offer, although it is unnecessary. My involvement with this thread began as technical (clarifying my oven with oomis) and then practical as relates to ona’as devorim, not hilchos shabbos.

    My Rav has paskened for me, and your Rav has paskened for you.

    Shavua Tov.

    #650873

    Darchei Noam
    Member

    If someone thinks they have an unpublished or anonymous opinion on a halachik issue that they follow themselves, that is one thing. But to promote said anonymous opinion as a factual halachik acceptable position for the masses (that goes against published non-anonymous opinions by the same halachik authority the purported anonymous opinion emanates from), is dangerously wrong.

    #650874

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Oomis1105 – “When there is no wick with a gas flame, there is no issur of extinguishing,kibui, on Yom Tov.”

    This ruling is according to Rav Moshe and other Poskim. Also, don’t forget what I mentioned previously; that “many gas ranges today have an electronic ignition at the start of the knob so you have turn the knob off quickly in order to bypass the “click click” of the electronic ignition. I tried to do that and it works.”

    Darchei Noam-“If someone thinks they have an unpublished or anonymous opinion on a halachik issue that they follow themselves, that is one thing.”

    Bemused “My Rav has paskened for me, and your Rav has paskened for you.”

    #650875

    cherrybim-

    Based on my understanding of electronic stove ignition systems, there may be a problem here.

    I am not qualified to argue halocha, but this is the mitzius of how things work.

    If it would be helpful, I can give a more lengthy explanation of capacitors and/or the URL for the PDF that explains spark modules.

    It seems that there are different types of stoves, and a person must really know what type they have and how it works when asking a shailoh.

    #650876

    oomis
    Participant

    Again, my thanks, Cherrybim (and ROB), for your extensive research in this area.

    #650877

    cherrybim
    Participant

    I can only try: I hear you, but this method came from the Rav I had referenced and he is very well versed in all aspects of halacha and continuously in touch with the poskim involved.

    If you want to discuss these technical issues with him, my offer is open to you as well.

    #650878

    Darchei Noam
    Member

    cherrybim –

    I’d like to take you up on your offer to discuss this with your anonymous Rabbi who has a kabbala that Reb Moshe said something different in private than he wrote in his Sefer.

    Where do I proceed cherrybim?

    #650879

    cherrybim-

    Thank you for the offer, but I see a couple of logistical issues:

    2) I would be very uncomfortable with an arrangement like that or a similar one.

    #650880

    cherrybim
    Participant

    I can only try: He is not my Rav; he is a renowned Rav who is a talmud muvhak of Rav Moshe ZT”L. If it’s ok with the mod; you would show your Rav’s name in a post and I would contact him with the name as mentioned above and that would be my total involvement. You take it from there. You would have direct contact after I give your Rav the name; unless you have something better.

    Or, do a little bit of research on line, as I did. He is not difficult to find. I have not heard from Joseph, I wonder if he already found the Rav.

    Darchei Noam – “I’d like to take you up on your offer to discuss this with your anonymous Rabbi who has a kabbala that Reb Moshe said something different in private than he wrote in his Sefer. Where do I proceed cherrybim?”

    You can start a musser seder and learn to stay away from saying sheker and to learn some derech eretz.

    #650881

    oomis
    Participant

    Ditto.

    #650882

    Darchei Noam
    Member

    cherrybim: When called to the carpet over your usage of anonymous sources you either back down or weasel out.

    #650883

    cherrybim-

    I’ll give your offer some thought, thank you.

    Folks-

    As the self-appointed Capo di tutti-frutti of this thread, I respecfully request that sarcasm, insults and inuendo not be part of this discussion.

    The halocha and mitzius portions of this thread are as geshmak as a good potato kugel.

    The less-pleasant portions are like biting into a raw garlic clove that some prankster put into your kugel. Enjoy the imagery 🙂

    #650885

    Bemused
    Participant

    Darchei Noam – “I’d like to take you up on your offer to discuss this with your anonymous Rabbi who has a kabbala that Reb Moshe said something different in private than he wrote in his Sefer. Where do I proceed cherrybim?”

    Cherrybim- “You can start a musser seder and learn to stay away from saying sheker and to learn some derech eretz.”

    ICOT- “As the self-appointed Capo di tutti-frutti of this thread, I respecfully request that sarcasm, insults and inuendo not be part of this discussion.”

    Bravo, ICOT. I second your call.Requesting verification from an anonomously quoted Rabbi is appropriate, not a breach in derech eretz.

    #650886

    PM
    Member

    It’s sad that this thread has descended from a vigorous, polite Torah discussion to the present situation.

    cherrybim: I AM a Rav, please name the “renowned Rav” to me so I can discuss the sugya with him on a Rav to Rav basis. You may have learned Halacha for 20 years, but you are surprisingly unwilling to explain why a melacha sheina tzricha l’gufa is “not kibuyi” and how you explain the other 2 teshuvos from Reb Moshe. Also you undermine your credibility when you “guess” that Reb Moshe was referring to a gas stove with a wick.

    I think I have more then fulfilled my obligation of due diligence by quoting numerous sources, which you have not even attempted to disprove. I have spoken to many Rabbonim, none of whom have heard of this supposed heter. I don’t know of anyone who learned in MTJ, feel free to post names and telephone numbers of Talmidei Chachomim who learned there I could call for information. I have asked a number of friends who learned in Staten Island, the only one who had heard of it recalled a “rumor going around Beis Medrash” and he was skeptical of its veracity. I will continue to try to run down any leads, but if you would be more cooperative it would help.

    #650887

    PM
    Member

    ROB: “cherrybim- your contribution with the website is truly priceless.”

    Was that meant sarcastically???

    #650888

    PM
    Member

    ICOT: with a capacitor there is no fire created, according to the currently accepted understanding that a current is not “fire” only a spark. The issue of closing a circuit would only be relevant according to the Chazon Ish’s understanding of boneh, which is not widely accepted. Even according to the CI closing a circuit is only boneh when it accomplishes something significant. He learns this concept from the Chaye Adam who says that winding up a clock is make b’patish because it causes and inanimate object to function, and the CI equates the 2 melachos. Therefore even according to the CI, if you close a circuit and nothing happens, as is the case with a capacitor if it doesn’t reach it’s capacity, you have not done boneh.

    A technical question which may or may not have relevance in Halacha. If the capacitor does not reach its full capacity, does it store the remaining charge and need less time to reach capacity the next time, or does the electricity dissipate?

    #650889

    PM-

    Thank you for your detailed answer. That effectively answers why completing and then breaking a circuit that charges a capacitor would not be a problem if the capacitor doesn’t have enough of a charge built up so that it discharges.

    If the capacitor does not reach its full capacity, does it store the remaining charge and need less time to reach capacity the next time…” Yes, for a limited amount of time. That’s why when you turn on your camera’s flash, turn it off when it’s almost ready, and then back on quickly, it will take much less time to be ready from the second “on” than it would have from scratch.

    …or does the electricity dissipate?” Also yes. The amount of time it takes depends on several factors; the voltage, the size of the charge, the size of the capacitor, “voltage leaks”, and possibly other things. My semi-educated guess in the case of a stove’s spark module is that it would lose its charge almost instantly. Sorry, I can’t give an answer with 100% certainty.

    cherrybim-

    “PM”s answer gets us both off the hook re: asking a rov why a stove that starts sparking as soon as the knob is turned would not be a problem as long as the knob is turned quickly enough (both on and off) so that it doesn’t spark.

    #650890

    cherrybim-

    Here is the ????? ??? that you quoted:

    ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???”? ?? ???? ?????

    ?????, ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???????

    ??? ?”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????

    ????? ???? ????? ?? ????

    Since my cut-and-paste works OK with Hebrew .pdf files, I can also cut-and-paste Rav Heineman’s oven teshuva it you would like.

    Question for those familiar with the Igros Moshe – is it common for him to mention that he has a chiddush (or anything else), but that he doesn’t want to put it in writing?

    #650891

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Thank you, I can only try. I’d like to quote Rabbi Dovid Ribiat’s sayfer, The 39 Melochos, Vol. IV, P.1281 (a). You should find it interesting:

    “If the flame of a gas range blows out on Shabbos, one is permitted to shut of the gas to prevent it from escaping.

    #650892

    PM
    Member

    Please name one!!!

    #650893

    cherrybim
    Participant

    While the Rav in question did give me permission to use his name; I did not tell him that I would be putting it on the Internet and I’d rather take the flak than do something that might not have been approved.

    However, to put this to some kind of closure, would it be ok with the Mod of this thread (who has been pretty silent throught) if I were to name the Rav in the “Contact Us” email in the upper right-hand corner of this page and the Mod would confirm to the CR’s of this action?

    #650894

    Bemused
    Participant

    “or do use his criteria and fling dirt and mud?”

    Don’t you realize, cherrybim, that you have been the only one using nasty words and innuendo on this thread?

    It’s time to stop!

    #650895

    cherrybim
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin: “we should all try to go in the way of Aharon Hakohen.”

    What a Tzaddik!

    #650896

    PM
    Member

    I DO have older, more experienced Rabbanim I consult, and they have not heard of this “psak” either.

    I’m sorry for annoying you, but maybe the simple answer is that the “psak” is unfamiliar because it DOESN’T EXIST.

    #650897

    PM
    Member

    cherrybim: If the reason for Reb Moshe’s heter is “extinguishing without a wick is not kibuyi”, would it be permitted to turn off a gas burner or electric light on Shabbos as well??? If there is no melacha of kibuyi involved, why not?

    #650898

    PM
    Member

    I would add that R’ Shimon Eider and yblc”t R’ Simcha Bunim Cohen are both talmidm of Reb Moshe who have written seforim on Hilchos Shabbos and YT and make no mention of this supposed heter. Also, Piskei Teshuvos and Nitei Gavriel are encyclopedic works and do not bring it.

    #650899

    cherrybim
    Participant
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