Natural-Hair Sheitels Are Assur

Home Coffeeroom Family Matters Natural-Hair Sheitels Are Assur

Viewing 50 posts - 201 through 250 (of 342 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1402117

    GAON
    Participant

    “Yes Iโ€™m 97 keโ€h I Baruch hashem have 6 children & 39 grandchildren & many many great grandchildren of which some are Bโ€h married I live in Brooklyn NY ”

    Wow! Thanks so much for the firsthand info!! I wish you post more of how it was in those times.
    It sure beats hearing all confused shtusim of half-baked info here…

    May you be able to write with health and clarity until 120!!

    #1402128

    are the people here that are defending the halachik right to wear sheitels also saying that there isn’t a problem with the sheitels being worn today – (specifically those more than halfway down the back, skin colored parts, falls exposing the very front hairline)?

    #1402132

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sheitels that are virtually indistinguishable from real hair, even to a maven or buki who can make such distinctions, is something that was very rare prior to several decades ago.

    #1402137

    GAON
    Participant

    “Rav Ovadiah permitted Agunahs to remarry. Rav Ovadiah permitted the sale of Holy Land during Shmitta. Rav Ovadiah halachically permitted Oslo. Arguably, No Sage over the last several hundred years ever ruled as leniently ”

    Hmm I don’t know how you came to that conclusion – Agunahs have always been a source of seeking Kulahs throughout the ages by ALL poskim. As for Heter Mechira, I would rather not comment. Same with Oslo.

    I will say one thing, sorry, the Heter on Pe’ah Nuchris is much clearer and leKatchila than the Heter Mechira..

    #1402138

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    are the people here that are defending the halachik right to wear sheitels also saying that there isnโ€™t a problem with the sheitels being worn today โ€“ (specifically those more than halfway down the back, skin colored parts, falls exposing the very front hairline)?

    I’ll speak for myself – I am not saying all shaitels are okay. I’m saying that the fact that a shaitel is made from real hair, and is natural looking, is not inherently a problem.

    There’s no question in my mind that some shaitels are not tzniusdik, but neither is every tichel, or any other article of clothing, always tzniusdik.

    Perhaps shaitels are more commonly untzniusdik; I’ll leave that for the women to comment on.

    #1402146

    slominer
    Participant

    Gaon – <“I will quote soon the Poskim in those times, in regard to Russia Czarist. Yes โ€“ the fact was that it did prompt that most Charedi women opted to go uncovered. Not everyone was able to afford a wig.

    Other customs were banished as well due to the Gezeros, e.g. there were many places were married women shaved their heads, the Netziv speaks about it Emek Shailah โ€“ it all came to an end then.

    I think only some Hungarian chasidim still do thatโ€ฆ”>

    Why haven’t we returned to the hair covering customs that the Russian government gezeiros stopped us from continuing, now that the government gezeiros are no longer enforced against us?

    #1402139

    GAON
    Participant

    “are the people here that are defending the halachik right to wear sheitels also saying that there isnโ€™t a problem with the sheitels being worn today โ€“

    Read the earlier posts – we were quiet clear – – no one is defending immodest sheitels.

    #1402141

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    and if indeed the womanโ€™s wig hadnโ€™t looked so natural, then perhaps nobody would have presumed she wasnโ€™t covered in the first place.

    Yet, it was muttar.

    #1402158

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    Sheitels that are virtually indistinguishable from real hair, even to a maven or buki who can make such distinctions, is something that was very rare prior to several decades ago.

    1) Are you also 97?

    2) I’m told they’re rare today as well

    3) It’s clear from R’ Moshe that there’s still no issur (and that they existed).

    #1402176

    Joseph
    Participant

    “1) Are you also 97?”

    A bit older. How’s that relevant?

    “2) Iโ€™m told theyโ€™re rare today as well”

    Who told you this? What makes you assume that’s reliable information?

    “3) Itโ€™s clear from Rโ€™ Moshe that thereโ€™s still no issur (and that they existed).”

    As you know, there are a multitude of shittos on this issue. I presume you aren’t suggesting we disregard others.

    #1402207

    “2) Iโ€™m told theyโ€™re rare today as well”
    not at all

    “Thereโ€™s no question in my mind that some shaitels are not tzniusdik, but neither is every tichel, or any other article of clothing, always tzniusdik”
    ?? so if you ask me if my snack is kosher I should answer that my coworkers snack isn’t kosher either?

    “Read the earlier posts โ€“”
    no thanks, sorry. WAAAY to long and redundant

    ” โ€“ โ€“ no one is defending immodest sheitels.”
    Baruch Hashem

    #1402249

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    Why havenโ€™t we returned to the hair covering customs that the Russian government gezeiros stopped us from continuing, now that the government gezeiros are no longer enforced against us?

    If you’re a woman, and you want to, go ahead. As it is, it’s muttar l’chatchilah according to some of our biggest poskim, and R’ Moshe writes that a man cannot insist that his wife not wear a shaitel.

    A bit older. Howโ€™s that relevant?

    Because I think you have no idea what shaitels looked like several decades ago, and you’re lying when you say you do, just as you are about your age.


    Who told you this? What makes you assume thatโ€™s reliable information?

    Any woman I’ve ever heard discuss it says they can tell.

    As you know, there are a multitude of shittos on this issue. I presume you arenโ€™t suggesting we disregard others.

    No, you are the one of those suggesting we disregard the mainstream shittah. If a woman wants to be machmir, I have no problem with that.

    ?? so if you ask me if my snack is kosher I should answer that my coworkers snack isnโ€™t kosher either?

    If the entirety of my answer was that other articles of clothing could also be untzniusdik, perhaps you’d have a valid point.

    #1402254

    not true. your answer to whether or not halachically permissible sheitels are accrptable was that tichels aren’t either. that is just an answer we give when we don’t want to be wrong so instead of saying so, we say that the other guy is also wrong. irrelevant to the question asked.

    #1402255

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    BTW, if I’m wrong about real looking shaitels being rare, that just means that there’s even less of a problem of maris ayin, and less of a problem of das Yehudis.

    #1402258

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    your answer to whether or not halachically permissible sheitels are accrptable was that tichels arenโ€™t either.

    No, that wasn’t my answer. I explicitly wrote:

    I am not saying all shaitels are okay.

    and

    Thereโ€™s no question in my mind that some shaitels are not tzniusdik…

    I don’t see why the rest of what I wrote changes or detracts from that.

    #1402266

    dancingmom
    Participant

    Rav Ovadiah proved in his teshuva that the Shiltei Givorim is talking about a chatzer as a private courtyard. Not a public place. If you bothered to read it, you would understand why.

    Everyone is going around in circles. Bh Rav Ovadia Yosef clarifed this topic for Sephardim- hair on top of hair halachically assur and immodest (and illogical). This is even more obvious today when the wigs are much nicer than ones own hair- so even if a heter was given for a wig many years ago it would not be applicable today

    #1402269

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    Wait, you’re only talking about Sefardim? Why didn’t you say so?

    Anyhow, FYI, there are Sefardi poskim who disagree with Chacham Ovadiah as well, and as you point out, his psak is based on his understanding of the Shiltei Giborim, which poskim bigger than Chacham Ovadiah disagreed with.

    #1402271

    “I donโ€™t see why the rest of what I wrote changes or detracts from that.”

    because you said “but”

    and (as usual) the more you dissect it the harder it will be to retain either what you actually said, or what I actually referenced so I’m not playing along.

    #1402278

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Any woman Iโ€™ve ever heard discuss it says they can tell.”

    Syag is a woman in this discussion and she stated above that it isn’t rare anymore today for her and others to encounter sheitels that are indistinguishable from real hair, where they cannot tell it is a sheitel.

    #1402286

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    Dissect? Where do frogs come into this?

    I stand by what I wrote, and I think the disclaimer was important, because I don’t necessarily think that not wearing a shaitel is going to avoid the slippery slope issue.

    I know you haven’t read the whole thread, but some have seemingly argued that nobody should wear any shaitels because some shaitels are not tzniusdik.

    #1402295

    dancingmom
    Participant

    All this back and forth comes from a lack of understanding of the purpose of the mitzvah of kisui rosh

    From the newly released Sefer ืชื•ืจืช ื”ื›ื™ืกื•ื™:
    ื‘ื˜ืขื ื”ืื™ืกื•ืจ, ื™ืฉื ื” ื”ืกื›ืžื” ืฉืœ ื›ืœ ืžืคืจืฉื™ ื”ืฉ”ืก ื•ื”ืงื“ืžื•ื ื™ื ืฉื–ื”ื• ืžื˜ืขื ื”ืคืจื™ืฆื•ืช ื”ื ื’ืจืžืช ืžื›ืš, ื•ื›ืคื™ ืฉื›ื•ืชื‘ ื–ืืช ื‘ืขืœ “ืชืจื•ืžืช ื”ื“ืฉืŸ” (ืกื™ืžืŸ ื™) ืฉื•ื“ืื™ ืื™ืกื•ืจ ื’ืœื•ื™ ื”ืจืืฉ ืื™ื ื ื• ืืœื ืžืฉื•ื ืคืจื™ืฆื•ืช ื›ืœืคื™ ื”ื’ื‘ืจื™ื. ื•ื‘ืกืคืจ “ืžืขืœื•ืช ื”ืžื™ื“ื•ืช” (ืคืจืง ื˜) ื•ืžื‘ืืจ ื›ืš: ืฉื›ืŸ ืฉืขืจื•ืช ื”ืืฉื” ื“ื‘ืจ ืคืจื™ืฆื•ืช ื•ืขืจื•ื” ื•ืžืจื’ื™ืœื™ื ืืช ื”ืื“ื ืœื™ื“ื™ ื”ืจื”ื•ืจ ื•ืชืื•ื”. ื•ื›ืœืฉื•ื ื•ืช ืืœื• ื ื™ืชืŸ ืœืžืฆื•ื ื‘ืžืงื•ืžื•ืช ืœืจื•ื‘, ื•ืจืง ื ื‘ื™ื ืืช ืœืฉื•ื ื• ืฉืœ ื”ื—ื™ื“”ื ื‘ืกืคืจื• ืขืœ ืื‘ื•ืช ื“ืจื‘ื™ ื ืชืŸ ื”ื›ื•ืชื‘ ื›ืš ืฉืžืืžืจ ืฉื—ื•ื” ื’ืจืžื” ืฉ’ื”’ื” ื™ืฆืจ ื”ืจืข, ืฆืจื™ื›ื” ื”ื™ื ืœื”ื™ื•ืช ืขื˜ื•ืคื”, ืฉืœื ื™ืชื’ืจื” ื™ืฆืจ ื”ืจืข ื‘ืื“ื ื”ืจื•ืื” ืื•ืชื”

    The entire mitzvah is about modesty- a wig which looks like natural hair is not modest precisely for that reason- the wig has the same attraction as the hair underneath it. Here is what Chessed leAvraham (Rav Avraham Azulai (years 1570- 1643), a Grandfather of the well-known Rav Chida) writes: โ€œsince the whole point of the prohibition is because of the โ€œpritzut degavreyโ€ โ€“ It attracts the attention of men, there is no difference between her hair and a wig โ€“ it is one and the same Torah prohibition, because it is the external attractive-appearance that Torah forbids; many more Poskim write the same.

    #1402298

    “I stand by what I wrote”

    so does PETA, global warming activists, tinfoil hat people, UFO sighters, open orthodox…therefore what?

    ๐Ÿ˜†

    #1402297

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    ..”which poskim bigger than Chacham Ovadiah disagreed with”…

    We should have some sort of rule that if you are going say Gadol X is “bigger” than Gadol Y or that the holding of Posek A ” trumps” Posek B (except for Ungarashe yidden living in Bnai Brak)…etc. you have to also post your Gadolim ranking or Posek “top 10” listing….this A is bigger than B stuff is both silly and not especially informative since no one has a clue as to the criteria you are using and generally, different groups have different perceptions as to who is the gadol hador (not that I would know). That’s why we have our own local rav or posek to hold by, and generally we take their guidance. However, one of the great gifts of the YWN CR is that if you carefully scroll through the archives, you can always find some attribution to some gadol or posek who will hold the exact position you are hoping to legitimize.

    #1402301

    Meno
    Participant

    The entire mitzvah is about modesty-

    Rav Moshe Feinstein was probably unaware of this.

    #1402302

    dancingmom
    Participant

    I was not only talking about Sephardim – I was pointing out how fortunate for the Sephardic world that they have such clarity on this issue.
    My main focus on this whole thread has been the modesty issue, the wigs today are by no means modest.
    Most of them are nicer than ones own hair- defeating the entire purpose of the mitzvah.
    See: Chofetz Chaim in the preface and in the fourth chapter of the book Geder Olam where he writes: โ€œIt is obvious and clear to everyone that the meaning of the law of โ€˜kesui roshโ€™ โ€“ is โ€˜tzniutโ€™ โ€“ modesty โ€ฆ. One of the reasons why women walk with their heads uncovered is โ€“ โ€˜yetzer-haRaโ€™ which โ€œencourages the woman to adorn herself and attract attention with her hair; and for that she will answer in the future.โ€
    From the words of Chofetz Chaim we see that (1) the gist of the commandment to cover the hair is โ€“ modesty, and (2) that it is obvious, and (3) that the hair of the married woman makes her more attractive and that is why they must be covered. Todayโ€™s wigs are more beautiful than oneโ€™s own hair and the fact that people โ€œknowโ€ that it is a wig, does not in any way kill the โ€˜yetzer-haRaโ€™ for another manโ€™s wife โ€“ a human nature perseveres in men.

    #1402309

    dancingmom
    Participant

    And for those that asked for the history of how sheitels became the accepted “custom” in frum circles:
    The custom of wearing wigs in โ€œreshut harabimโ€ (i.e. on the street) appeared about 150 years ago due to the decree of the Russian Tsar for Jews to change their attire:
    Aruch HaShulchan Ohr hAChaim 551:11: โ€œin our time โ€“ because of the order of the authorities we have changed the dress codeโ€ โ€“ and Jewish women were forced to walk bare-headed โ€“ the idea was thought of and promoted to the Tsar by the renegade Jews (maskilim).
    Rav Shlomo Kluger (in the book Shnot Chaim 316): โ€œThere was a โ€œgzeraโ€ in Russia (an order decreed by the authorities) to go bare-headed โ€“ and in our time many walk that way deliberately.โ€ I.e.: first, there was a โ€œgzeraโ€; afterwards this โ€œtraditionโ€ spread from city to city and from country to country, from Russia to Europe. Unfortunately, even the wives of Rabbis walked with uncovered head.
    Attempts to justify (already after the gzera was canceled) that this โ€œtraditionโ€ is contrary to the Torah brought no results โ€“ see Aruch HaShulchan 75:7, Kaf HaChaim 75.
    Righteous Jewish women could not walk in a kerchief during the gzera, as expected by the Torah law, but did not want to walk bare-headed โ€“ so they had chosen the lesser of two evils โ€“ wearing a wig. But they intentionally made their wigs such that they did not attract attention, not like todayโ€™s wigs, which are more beautiful than oneโ€™s own hair.
    Is this the tradition that we should continue?

    #1402313

    slominer
    Participant

    Honestly, I’m still unclear why we should let Russian government anti-Jewish gezeiros from 150 years ago govern us today that we wouldn’t reverse the less then optimal changes we undertook only as a direct result of that unwanted interference in our religious life and in how we practice our minhagim.

    I’m not saying everyone needs to stop wearing only sheitels, but I’d like to understand the answer to that question as it pertains to kehilos that come from those areas (which also includes Lita and Poland.)

    Regarding Sephardim, when did they stop mostly wearing head coverings other than sheitels? It appears Sephardim mostly wearing sheitels only occurred in the post WWII era. Aren’t minhagim supposed to remain intact?

    #1402316

    dancingmom
    Participant

    This is the translation of a letter written by a top talmud of Rav Elyashiv zt”l:
    (Opening paragraph praises those who have raised the topic of todayโ€™s wigs, which is described as pritzut and a gateway to sin).
    “Many times, we heard from Rav Elyashiv ztโ€l, how pained he was by this great breach, and how much he encouraged Jewish women to go with a mitpachat, which he considered โ€œGlattโ€, because even the old wigs, were a matter of controversy among the poskim, and from then on to today, the Yetzer Hara has not rested to produce different styles of wigs, the common denominator of which is to stimulate the Yetzer Hara and cause the men of Israel to sin, and it is a double obligation for us to cast aside this pritzut, and for sure anyone who is a Ben Torahโ€“ Heaven forbid that he should be lenient in this matterโ€“
    and let this be the first stringency that he takes upon himself, especially as (todayโ€™s wigs) can create a Michshol for the Rabbim (a pitfall for the masses). And โ€œAshreiโ€ (fortunate/blessed) is one who separates
    himself and who REFUSES to allow todayโ€™s wigs into his home. And in this merit, he will merit children who are Talmidei Chachamim and Tzaddikim…

    And on this I have come to sign
    (Rabbi) Moshe Mordechai Karp

    #1402326

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    To Meno…
    And what other “chiddush” (aside from the nexus between the mitzvah being all about tzinius) do you wish Rav Moshe had been aware of??

    #1402329

    Meno
    Participant

    Iโ€™m not really sure what thatโ€™s supposed to mean

    #1402341

    slominer
    Participant

    If the French or Quebec government forced Jews to stop wearing kippas (a not unrealistic possibility), would they no longer wear them once the gezeira was lifted or they moved out of those countries?

    #1402335

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    slonimer
    ืฉืžื ื™ื—ื–ื•ืจ ื“ื‘ืจ ืœืงืœืงื•ืœื•
    Seriously though that isnt how mesora is practiced. We dont dig up what was done 150 years ago and mimic that. We do what our religous parents did. they wore sheitels, their poskim held they were allowed we do the same. why did htis change who knows maybe because 150 years ago there was soem gezeira. And I do find it fascinating to study how customs/practice s change, but on practical halacha this doesnt come into play.

    As an aside this is why I eat Turkey, my parents were frum and they ate turkey they copied their parents. True at soem point one of my ancestors started eating turkey without a clear mesora, and that is an interesting historical tidbit. MAybe he has to give a din vechesbon on what right he had to eat it. But that doesn’t change today’s practice. (The Netziv says this regarding Turkey)

    DM
    “All this back and forth comes from a lack of understanding of the purpose of the mitzvah of kisui rosh”
    Ok So R’ Moshe didnt understand the purpose of the Mitzva. Nonetheless, as I told you when you used this same argument that a proffessor didnt see the logic, then Baalei Teshuva to whom this doesnt make sense and now it is anybody who points out that you are mistaken (interesting progression btw)
    When in fact it is you who are mistaken. That isnt how halacha is decided.
    for example when the torah says “ืœื ืชืงืคื• ืคืืช ืจืืฉื›ื ื•ืœื ืชืฉื—ื™ืช ืืช ืคืืช ื–ืงื ืš ” chazal teach us that if not done with a ืชืขืจ/razor it is nt assur. thsi might not be logical to your profesor friend, it might confuse baalei teshuva, and you can argue shaving with sam or scissiors undermines the reason for the issur. You’d of course be wrong.
    Again we are not discussing extra-halachic reasons to avoid sheitel (or shaving) whether based on kabbala or extra hiddur. Halachicly sheitels are muttar as has been demonstrated to you repeatedly no matter how illogical you findthe distinction

    #1402364

    slominer
    Participant

    They wouldn’t resume wearing kippas?

    #1402377

    GAON
    Participant

    In regards to all ืื—ืจื•ื ื™ื ื•ืคื•ืกืงื™ื that the above Yabia Omer compiled – opposing pe’ah nuchris vs Matirim -there are two points we need to know.

    a) One point, which I heard from a Posek Gadol, the fact that there are X amount of Later Poskim that wrote Teshuvot against it and X supporting – comparing them is really an insufficient way of determining anything. For a very simple reason; in the places where they did go, there was no need for any Posek to actually pen it in writing โ€˜supportingโ€™ it, as it has already been permitted by all our founding Poskim i.e.:
    , ืจืž”ื, ืฉื˜”ื’, ืžื’ืŸ ืื‘ืจื”ื, ืœื‘ื•ืฉ, ืคืจื™ืฉื”, ืืœื™ื” ืจื‘ื”, ืคืž”ื’, “ืฉื•”ืข ื”ืจื‘, ืžื—ืฆื™ืช ื”ืฉืงืœ, ื‘ืืจ ื”ื™ื˜ื‘, ื‘ื™ืื•ืจ ื”ื’ืจ”ื
    and laterโ€ฆ.. ืžืฉื ”ื‘, ื›ืฃ ื”ื—ื™ื™ืโ€ฆ

    Therefore, the true amount of Poskim that really support it cannot be determined by anything, and the ones that wrote in support happen to have been the ones that were covering those Simanim in Shulchan Aruch. Rather, the ones opposing were the ONLY ones that really opposed it (for various diff reasons โ€“ see next) – all the rest agreed, as the final above Psak Din.

    b) Another point we need to examine is, the ones that did oppose it, was it since that was the Minhag at the time, and thus going with any peโ€™ah nuchris was a breach in Das Yehudit, and that is the very reason they opposed or not. Would these very poskim permit it once there is a change in the actual Minhag, or doesnโ€™t it really matter? If yes โ€“ then most of the ones that are quoted as ืื•ืกืจื™ื are really irrelevant.

    – to be cont. –

    #1402380

    GAON
    Participant

    I will quote the words of the Posek Hador 150 yrs ago in sefer ืžื’ืŸ ื’ื‘ื•ืจื™ื, better known as The ‘ืฉื•ืืœ ื•ืžืฉื™ื‘’ , after answering and explaining the position of the above ืžื’ืŸ ืื‘ืจื”ื he adds :

    ื–”ืœ ื‘ื”ื“: ื•ื’ื ื’ื•ืฃ ื”ื“ื‘ืจ ืœื—ื•ืฉ ื‘ืคื™ืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช ืžืฉื•ื ืžืจืื™ืช ื”ืขื™ืŸ ืœืคืข”ื“ – ื‘ืจื‘ื™ื ืฉื ื”ื’ื• ื›ืŸ – ืœื ืฉื™ื™ืš ืžืจืื™ืช ืขื™ืŸ ื“ืœื ื—ืฉื™ื“ื™ ื•ื›ื•’ ื•ื›ืฉ”ื› ื‘ื–ื” ืฉื›ืœ ื”ื ืฉื™ื ื ื”ื’ื• ื›ืŸ ื”ืื™ืš ืืคืฉืจ ื“ื›ืœื”ื• ื™ืขื‘ืจื• ืขืœ ื“ืช ืžืฉื” ื•ื™ื”ื•ื“ื™ืช … ื•ืข”ื› ื™ืฉืคื˜ื• ื”ื›ืœ ืฉื”ื•ื ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช.

    “The entire issue of Maris Eyin does not pertain where many do wear pe’ah nuchris… Especially where all don a ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช …then all will automatically claim “she’s surely wearing a wig”. Hence, there is no concern of any ืžืจืื™ืช ืขื™ืŸ in that case. ”
    The Mishnah Brurah ch 71 quotes the above as well, leHalacha.
    The above concludes:
    ื•ืข”ื› ื™ืคื” ื›ืชื•ื‘ ื”ืžื’”ื ” ืฉืื™ืŸ ื“ื‘ืจื™ ื‘ืืจ ืฉื‘ืข ืžื—ื•ื•ืจื™ืŸ”, ื•ืž”ืž ื–ื” ื•ื“ืื™ ืื ืื™ืŸ ืžื ื”ื’ ื”ืžืงื•ื ื›ืŸ ืฉื™ืœื›ื• ื”ื ืฉื™ื ื‘ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช ื•ื“ืื™ ื™ืฉ ืœืืกื•ืจ, ืžืฉื•ื ืžืจืื™ืช ืขื™ืŸ, ื›ืž”ืฉ ื–ืงื ื™ื ื• (ื“ื”ื‘ื”ืฉ) ืžื”ืจ”ื™ ื–”ืœ, ื•ืื•ืœื™ ื”ื•ื ื’”ื› ื‘ื›ืœืœ ื“ืช ื™ื”ื•ื“ื™ืช, ื•ื‘ืคืจื˜ ืœืงืฉื•ืจ ื‘ืฉืขืจืŸ… ื“ื•ื“ืื™ ืื™ื›ื ืื™ืกื•ืจ – ื”ื™ื›ื ื“ืื™ืŸ ื”ืžื ื”ื’ ื›ืŸ, ื•ื’ื ื–ืงื ื™ื ื• ืฉื”ืืจื™ืš ื‘ืคืกืง ื”ืœื–, ื‘ืœื™ ืกืคืง ืฉื›ื•ื•ื ืชื• ื”ื™ืชื” ืœืฉื ืฉืžื™ื ื‘ืฉื‘ื™ืœ ืฉืจืื” ืฉื ืคืจืฅ ื‘ืขืช ื”ื”ื•ื ื•ื›ืœ ื›ื•ื•ื ืชื ื”ื™ื” ืœื“ืžื•ืช ืœื”ืขื›ื•”ื, ื•ืข”ื› ืœื™ื‘ื ื• ืœื™ื‘ืชื” ืจื•ื— ื˜ื”ืจื” ืœืขื•ืจืจ ืžื“ื ื™ื ืข”ื– ื•ื›ื•’ ืขื›”ืœ ื”ืžื’ืŸ ื’ื‘ื•ืจื™ื, ื”ื•ื‘ืื• ื”ืžืฉื ”ื‘.

    Similar to the above wrote his โ€˜colleagueโ€™ Hagaon Rav Shlomo Kluger ZTL; differentiating between the Magen Avrohom’s times and his, as the following.

    :ื–”ืœ ื‘ืชืฉื•ื‘ื” ืฉื ื•ืช ื—ื™ื™ื ืกื™ ืฉื˜”ื–
    ืขื™ื™ ืžื’”ื ืžื” ืฉื”ืฉื™ื’ ืขืœ ื”ื‘ืืจ ืฉื‘ืข ื•ื“ืขืชื• ืœื”ืชื™ืจ, ื•ื”ื ื” ืœื“ื™ื ื ื ืจืื” ืœื™ – ื‘ื–ืžืŸ ื”ื–ื” ืืฃ ื”ืžื’ืŸ ืื‘ืจื”ื ืžื•ื“ื” ื“ืืกื•ืจ ื•ื‘ืคืจื˜ ื‘ืžื“ื™ื ื•ืช ืจื•ืกื™ื” – ื“ื”ื’ื–ื™ืจื ื”ื•ื™ ืฉื ืฉื™ืœื›ื• ื”ื ืฉื™ื ื‘ืฉืขืจื•ืช ืฉืœื”ื, ื•ื“ืื™ ื“ืืกื•ืจ, ื“ื”ืจื™ ืขื™ืงืจ ื”ืื™ืกื•ืจ ืฉืœื ืชืฆื ืื™ืฉื” ื‘ืฉืขืจื” ืžื›ื— ืฉื™ื‘ื ืœื™ื“ื™ ื”ืจื”ื•ืจ ื“ื‘ืจื™ื ื‘ื”, ื•ืœื™ื“ื™ ืคืจื™ืฆื•ืช , ื•ื”ื› ื”ืžื’”ื ืžื™ื™ืจื™ ื‘ื–ืžื ื• ื•ื‘ืคืจื˜ ื‘ื–ืžืŸ ื”ืฉ”ืก ืฉื”ื™ื• ืจื•ื‘ืŸ ื”ื ืฉื™ื ื›ืฉืจื•ืช ื•ืœื ื”ื•ื™ ื“ืจื›ืŸ ืœื™ืœืš ื‘ื’ืœื•ื™ ืฉื™ืขืจ ืฉืœื”ื – ืœื›ืš ืžื•ืชืจ ื‘ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช, ืฉืœื ื™ื‘ื•ืื• ืœื™ื“ื™ ื”ืจื”ื•ืจ – ื“ืžื™ื“ืข ื™ื“ืขื• ื“ืื™ืŸ ื”ืฉื™ืขืจื•ืช ืฉืœื”ื, ืื‘ืœ ื‘ืขื•ื•ื ื•ืช ื”ื–ืžืŸ ื‘ื–ืžืŸ ื”ื–ื” ื”ืจื‘ื” ืคืจื•ืฆื•ืช ืฉื”ื•ืœื›ื™ืŸ ื‘ื›ื•ื•ื ื” ื‘ืฉื™ืขืจ ืฉืœื”ื ื”ื› ืืฃ ื”ื”ื•ืœื›ืช ื‘ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช ืžื” ืžื”ื ื™ ื–ื” – ื”ืจื™ ื”ืจื•ืื” ืœื ื™ื“ืข ื•ื™ืกื‘ื•ืจ ื“ืฉืœื” ื”ื•ื – ื•ื‘ืคืจื˜ ื‘ืžื“ื™ื ื•ืช ืจื•ืกื™ื ื“ื”ื’ื–ืจื” ืฉื ื›ืŸ ื•ื”ืจื‘ื” ื”ื•ืœื›ื™ืŸ ื›ืŸ ืžื›ื— ื”ื’ื–ื™ืจื”, ื”ื› ื‘ื•ื“ืื™ ื”ืจื•ืื” ื™ืืžืจ ืฉื’ื ื–ื• ื›ืื—ืช ืžื”ื ื•ืกื•ืฃ ืกื•ืฃ ื™ื‘ื ืœื™ื“ื™ ืคืจื™ืฆื•ืช ื•ื”ืจื”ื•ืจโ€ฆ

    ื•ื”ื ื” ื‘ื“ืจืš ื–ื” ื™ืฉ ืœื“ื—ื•ืช ื ืžื™ ืžื” ืฉื”ื‘ื™ืื• ืจืื™ื” ืžืžืกื›ืช ื ื–ื™ืจ ื“ืฃ ื›”ื— ืข”ื‘โ€ฆ. ื‘ืžื” ื“ืงืืžืจ ืฉื ืœืจ”ืž ื“ืืคืฉืจ ื‘ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช ื•ื›ื•’ ื•ื”ื•ื ื“ื™”ืœ ื“ืžื“ืจื‘ื ืŸ ืฉื ืžื•ื›ื— ืœื”ื™ืคื•ืš ื“ืžื” ื“ืงืืžืจ ืฉื ื“ืœืจื‘ื ืŸ ืื’ื‘ ื“ืื™ืช ื‘ื™ื” ื–ื•ื”ืžื ืžืื™ืก ืœื™ื”, ืื™ืŸ ื”ื›ื•ื•ื ื” ื“ืžื›ื— ื–ื” ื™ื”ื™ื” ื ื—ืฉื‘ ื“ื‘ืจื™ื ืฉื‘ื™ื ื• ืœื‘ื™ื ื”, ืฉื™ื”ื™ื” ื™ื›ื•ืœ ืœื”ืคืจ, ื–ื” ื•ื“ืื™ ืื™ื ื•, ื“ื‘ืฉื‘ื™ืœ ืงืคื™ื“ื ื›ื–ื• ืœื ื ื—ืฉื‘ ื“ื‘ืจื™ื ืฉื‘ื™ื ื• ืœื‘ื™ื ื”,โ€ฆ
    ืจืง ื”ื›ื•ื•ื ื” – ื“ื”ืจื•ืื” ืื•ืชื” ืœื ื™ื“ืžื” ื‘ื ืคืฉื• ื“ื”ื•ื™ ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช – ื›ื™ ื™ืืžืจ ื“ื•ื“ืื™ ืื™ื ื• ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช, ื“ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช ืœื ื”ื™ื” ื”ื‘ืขืœ ืžื ื™ื—ื” ื›ื™ื•ืŸ ื“ืžืื™ืก ืœื™ื”, ื•ื”ื› ื™ื“ืžื” ื”ืจื•ืื” ืฉื”ื•ื ืฉืœื”, ื•ืื™ื›ื ื”ืจื”ื•ืจื” ื•ืคืจื™ืฆื•ืช ื•ื‘ื–ื” ื™ื”ื™ื” ืคืœื•ื’ืชื ื“ืจ”ืž ื•ืจื‘ื ืŸ, ื“ืจ”ืž ืžืชื™ืจ ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช ื•ืจื‘ื ืŸ ืืกืจื™ ื•ืงื™ื™”ืœ ื›ืจื‘ื ืŸ.

    As we can see, his Issur is mainly based on the fact that the concept of going with Peโ€™ah Nuchris was not accepted and spread out, as clearly indicated that โ€˜Maris Eyinโ€™ is not that it โ€˜looks like hairโ€™, rather, itโ€™s just that the ones seeing are not aware of her donning a Peโ€™ah Nuchris and will therefore assume it as ones own hair, as was the case in his times that many did indeed go with own uncovered hair.
    As we clearly see from his words:
    โ€œื”ื› ืืฃ ื”ื”ื•ืœื›ืช ื‘ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช ืžื” ืžื”ื ื™ ื–ื” – ื”ืจื™ ื”ืจื•ืื” ืœื ื™ื“ืข ื•ื™ืกื‘ื•ืจ ื“ืฉืœื” ื”ื•ืโ€
    โ€œืจืง ื”ื›ื•ื•ื ื” – ื“ื”ืจื•ืื” ืื•ืชื” ืœื ื™ื“ืžื” ื‘ื ืคืฉื• ื“ื”ื•ื™ ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช- ื›ื™ ื™ืืžืจ ื“ื•ื“ืื™ ืื™ื ื• ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช”

    The same differentiation we find in the words of the Pri Megadim in Ch 7.
    – to be cont .

    #1402388

    GAON
    Participant

    Dancing,

    You keep on going in circles:
    “Rav Ovadiah proved in his teshuva that the Shiltei Givorim is talking about a chatzer as a private courtyard. Not a public place. If you bothered to read it, you would understand why”.

    โ€œit is clear from their findings that the Shiltei Giborim was referring to the wearing of a wig in the ื—ืฆืจ โ€“ the courtyard, where other men were usually not prevalent.โ€

    (I will re-post)

    Explain โ€“ as per your above Peshat in the SHโ€G (that itโ€™s only pertaining to the courtyard) โ€“ what exactly was the opposition of the Beโ€™er Sheva?

    I will quote part of the opposing words of the Beโ€™er Sheva Ch 18:

    โ€œื•ืืคื™ืœื• ื–ื›ืจ ืœื“ื‘ืจ ืœื™ื›ื ืœื”ืชื™ืจ ืœื ืฉื™ื ื ืฉื•ืื•ืช ืœืฆืืช ื‘ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช ืžื’ื•ืœื” ื‘ืฉื•ืง ืื• ื‘ื—ืฆืจ ื“ื‘ืงืขื™ ื‘ื™ื” ืจื‘ื™ื ื›ืžื• ืฉืขืœื” ืขืœ ื“ืขืช ื”ื—ื›ื ื”ื ื–ื›ืจ ืžืคื ื™ ืฉืืคืฉืจ ืœืคืจืฉ ื“ืžื” ืฉืฉื ื• ื”ื™ืชืจ ืœื”ืชืงืฉื˜ ื•ืœืฆืืช ื‘ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช ืžื™ื™ืจื™ ื“ื•ืงื ื‘ื—ืฆืจ ืฉืื™ืŸ ื”ืจื‘ื™ื ื‘ื•ืงืขื™ืŸ ื‘ื• ื•ืโ€ื› ื‘ื—ื ื ื˜ืจื— ื›ืœ ื”ื˜ื•ืจื— ื”ื–ื” ื”ื—ื›ื ื”ื ื–ื›ืจ ื“ื”ื ืืคื™ืœื• ื‘ืฉืขืจื•ืช ืจืืฉื” ืžืžืฉ ืžื’ื•ืœื•ืช ืžื•ืชืจ ืœื” ืœื™ืœืš ื‘ื—ืฆืจ ืฉืื™ืŸ ื”ืจื‘ื™ื ื‘ื•ืงืขื™ืŸ ื‘ื• ื•ืื™ื ื• ืืกื•ืจ ืืคื™โ€™ ืžืฉื•ื ื“ืช ื™ื”ื•ื“ื™ืช ื“ื”ื™ื™ื ื• ืžื ื”ื’ ื”ืฆื ื™ืขื•ืช ืฉื ื”ื’ื• ื‘ื ื•ืช ื™ืฉืจืืœ
    โ€œื•ืื™ืŸ ืœื”ืงืฉื•ืช ื”ื™ืืš ืืคืฉืจ ืœืคืจืฉ ื”ื ื“ืชื ืŸ ื™ื•ืฆืื” ืืฉื” ื‘ื›ื‘ื•ืœ ื•ื‘ืคืื” ื ื›ืจื™ืช ื‘ื—ืฆืจ ื“ืžื™ื™ืจื™ ื“ื•ืงื ื‘ื—ืฆืจ ืฉืื™ืŸ ื”ืจื‘ื™ื ื‘ื•ืงืขื™ืŸ ื‘ื•

    I.e. The very pshat that we are speaking about i.e. a โ€œCourtyardโ€ is exactly the pshat how the Beโ€™er Shva is disputing the very Mishna the Shtโ€G based his psak on!

    Please relate to that โ€œTalmid Chacham to look up the entire responsum of the Beโ€™er Sheva, and you will see that pshat holds no ground.

    Also, the Rema in ื“ืจื›ื™ ืžืฉื” ืกื™โ€™ ืฉโ€ื’ is specifically talking about Reshus haRabim and so is the Magen Avrohom and SMโ€A and PRMโ€G and Mogen Giborim.

    See sefer Magen Giborim Ch 71 that he answered all Be’er Sheva’s questions.

    #1402395

    golfer
    Participant

    Fascinated by a 5 page thread largely populated by men, discussing the woman’s obligation of kissui rosh.
    Syag, perhaps you’d care to open a thread about the inyan of bittul zman?

    #1402413

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    Fascinated by a 5 page thread largely populated by men, discussing the womanโ€™s obligation of kissui rosh.

    What’s even worse is that almost all of the teshuvos written (except for the one written by dancingmom’s chashuva rebbetzin) were written by men.

    #1402426

    Joseph
    Participant

    My, my, my. Chazal were men and they taught and wrote a plethora of women Halachas in the Gemorah. The Mechaber of the Shulchan Aruch was also male. Tht worst part is that young boys and men in Yeshiva today learn Hilchos Noshim.

    #1402430

    golfer
    Participant

    I see. So apparently the gentlemen hear discussing vital issues such as sheitels consider this part of their learning, like learning halacha. I wonder if any of them are putting out shu”t sefarim. I’ll look for them in my local Judaica store.

    #1402437

    Joseph
    Participant

    One needn’t be a mechaber of Halacha seforim to discuss and learn Halachas on any topic under the sun. Hilchos Noshim is as relevant to men as it is to women. Husbands and fathers set the halachic tone and ensure their family are halachicly compliant. Indeed, throughout time men have been more halachicly proficient in Hilchos Noshim than the women they teach it to. And regular average everyday Jewish men learn Hilchos Noshim (just as much as Halachas on any other subject) in shul, at work, on the train, with chavrusas and simply shmoozing about Halachas 7 days a week, 354 days a year. (That’s how many days there are in a year for those who keep a Jewish frame of mind.)

    This new age idea that men should keep out of women issues, popularized in political culture in debates about abortion and other contemporary liberal thought, is entirely and completely a goyishe train of thought.

    #1402453

    zaltzvasser
    Participant

    @slominer:
    In this post, you told me that my tale of scarves –> uncovered –> shaitels was about America. Return to the post and read it again. I was talking about Europe. Ruchoma Shain records how in Mir, Poland (located in Europe) the majority of women did not cover their hair. The progression I described occurred in Europe.

    #1402469

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Joseph Says
    “This new age idea that men should keep out of women issues, popularized in political culture in debates about abortion and other contemporary liberal thought, is entirely and completely a goyishe train of thought.:
    No Joe…its NOT “new age”…your constant effort to denigrate women in the name of Halacha is fairly transparent but most of the time, ignored…nor is misogyny a goiyeshe concept. More and more bnos yisroel are getting an education, becoming more informed of their rights and responsibilities under both halacha and civil law and and no, its not apikorsus to disagree with those who would keep women in some dark virtual cave and allowed to come out only when their husbands or fathers gave them permission. You paint a very sad picture of any women in your life by your commentary

    #1402471

    slominer
    Participant

    zaltzvasser – We’ve established that the Czar forced Jewish women to stop covering their hair and had the Russian police beat women caught in the street with their hair covered. Poland and Lithuania were under Russian jurisdiction. So this regression to uncovered hair was due to the Christian authorities violently forcing them to go uncovered. Or at best a wig that looked similar to hair but without the Maftachos that Jewish women had the minhag of wearing.

    So you can’t really fault them being they were beaten into submission by the police. Nor can that unfortunate period be used as an example of anything, especially the righteous way.

    Gaon – I’d be interested in hearing your feedback on the points I made in my previous five or so comments above.

    #1402477

    zaltzvasser
    Participant

    @slominer, Poland was under Polish jurisdiction until WWII. When Rebbetzin Ruchoma Shain was in Mir, Poland, there were definitely no Russians there, and nobody forced women to uncover their hair (Rebbetzin Shain herself wore a MITPACHAS ืžื˜ืคื—ืช (miftochas is NOT a word)). Their heads were totally uncovered, either by choice or by ignorance, but certainly not by force.
    Please read this entire post before commenting, as well as my previous post(s) in entirety if you haven’t already. Thanks.

    #1402487

    slominer
    Participant

    zaltzvasser – Russian rule of Poland and Lithuania began in the 1700s and ended in the 1900s. You couldn’t possibly expect that after over 100 years of oppressive Czarist anti-Jewish rule that all the women would suddenly start covering their hair again properly as soon as the Russians were kicked out.

    Mir was part of the Russian Empire until 1920. And it became part of Russia (USSR) again in 1939. Mir was only part of Poland between 1920 and 1939. There was no country Poland for over a hundred years until 1920. Rebt. Shain went there only eleven years after the Russians left and she left Mir just two years before the Russians took it over again. Just a few short years after the Russians left for only a brief period, it isn’t reasonable to have expected everyone to have adjusted from a hundred plus years of oppressive religious rule.

    #1402491

    zaltzvasser
    Participant

    @slominer: Okay. So according to you, the progression was: scarves –> supposedly wigs (due to a supposed gezeirah that nobody has proven actually happened) –> uncovered (for a century at least, if not more) –> wigs. The fact remains that there was no transition from scarves to wigs. The transition was, regardless of proof of a (as yet hypothetical) gezeira, from NO COVERING to wigs.
    Here is my take on some of your above comments (this is for everyone, not just @slominer):
    “Nor can that unfortunate period be used as an example of anything, especially the righteous way.”
    Our entire history is one gigantic unfortunate period. “Unfortunate periods” are the only examples we have.
    “You couldnโ€™t possibly expect that after over 100 years of oppressive Czarist anti-Jewish rule that all the women would suddenly start covering their hair again properly as soon as the Russians were kicked out.”
    And you can’t possibly expect that after many, many years of wig-wearing, sanctioned by the holiest and most prominent poskim of our country (please note that I said our country) and generation, women will suddenly start covering their hair as if they only had the same materials available to them that Sarah Imeinu did.

    #1402496

    slominer
    Participant

    The Czarist gezeira is a known reality that isn’t under dispute. I believe even the fact that bochorim in Mir were clean shaven was a result of the after-effects of the gezeiros. Prior to the gezeiros frum Jewish men in Russia/Lithuania/Poland (non-Chasidic) had beards, kapotes and long sidecurls. And the frum women wore tichels. The Russian government effectively changed all that.

    My question (note that I’m not here claiming anyone needs to change anything) is if the change was forced upon us by the Russian Czar, once we are free from his yoke, why haven’t the kehilos from the Russian/Lithuanian/Polish areas that changed minhagim due to these gezeiros returned to their traditional minhagim vis-a-vis head covering for women and kapotes and beards for men.

    That’s the question I’m trying to understand.

    #1402506

    DaasYochid โ˜•
    Participant

    Most people aren’t interested in being “different”.

    #1402508

    dancingmom
    Participant

    Again, the wigs that were worn for hundreds of years looked nothing like todays wigs. I think I posted enough sourced info to show that Jewish women cover their hair for modesty (why is this even a debate??). Most of the wigs today are not modest, they look just like one’s own hair and usually nuch nicer which is defeating the purpose of the mitzvah.
    Jewish women are not covering their hair to look married, they are covering their hair to increase their modesty level- which is not happening with todays sheitels. The maaris ayin issue is not relevant
    My point is not to argue assur/ mutar (although there is much to debate about on that). My point is that many current Gedolei Hador who knew what the more recent wigs looked like stated that the wigs of today are not modest. One example of many:
    From ืžืฆื•ืช ื›ื™ืกื•ื™ ืฉืขืจื•ืช by Rabbi Pesach Elyiyahu Falk,
    “The present day Geolei HaPoskim have similarly stated that it is assur and wholly incorrect for a sheitel to be made to simulate the maiden appearance of a woman. In a proclomation from year 5750 a central paragraph reads as follows:
    ืคืื” ื”ื™ื ื›ื™ืกื•ื™ ืœืฉื™ืขืจ ืจืืฉื” ืฉืœ ื”ืืฉื”, ื‘ืžื” ื“ื‘ืจื™ื ืืžื•ืจื™ื ืฉืื›ืŸ ื ื™ืชืŸ ืœื”ื‘ื—ื™ืŸ ื‘ื” ืฉื”ื™ื ืคืื”. ืืš ืืœื• ื ืจืืช ื›ืžืจืื” ืฉื™ืขืจ ื˜ื‘ืขื™ ืœื—ืœื•ื˜ื™ืŸ ืœื ื ื•ื›ืœ ืœื›ื ื•ืชื” ื‘ืฉื ื›ื™ืกื•ื™ ืฉื™ืขืจ ื”ืจืืฉ. ื•ื‘ื—ื‘ื™ืฉืช ืคืื” ื–ื• ื”ื™ื ืžื—ืฉื™ืœื” ื›ืœ ืจื•ืื™ื” ื‘ืื™ืกื•ืจื™ื ื—ืžื•ืจื™ื
    “The sheitel is intended as a covering for the woman’s hair. It can be considered as such only when it can be recognized as a sheitel. if it looks like natural hair, it cannot be considered to screen off what is supposed to be hidden. By wearing such a sheitel the wearer ensnares those who see her in very serious issurim.”
    HaGaon HaRav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, HaGaon HaRav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, HaGaon HaRav Shmuel Halevi Wosner and HaGaon HaRav Nissim Karelitz. (page 12)

Viewing 50 posts - 201 through 250 (of 342 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.


Trending