Yair Lapid to Chareidim- you won

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  • #607973

    simcha613
    Participant

    By Yitzchok Adlerstein, on January 25th, 2013

    [Editor’s note: An earlier post provided the video link to Yair

    Lapid’s presentation to the haredi law track at Kiryat Ono College.

    Realizing that many readers were eager to evaluate the message without

    investing a half-hour’s worth of time to watch the video, I obtained

    an English- language transcript of the speech, through MakomIsrael.org

    which created the English subtitles for the video. Our thanks to

    Robbie Gringras of Makom for making the transcript available.]

    You won.

    There was a competition in Israel for Israeli-ness that lasted over a

    century, since the second wave of immigration, and in the end you won.

    We lost and you won.

    For decades it was a Mexican standoff, where each one waits for the

    other guy to give in,about which Avi Ravitsky, a religious man, wrote:

    place where they have a rare species, almost extinct, that has to be

    protected so we can take our grandkids there and show them and tell

    Let me remind you, when Ben Gurion agreed to exempt yeshiva students

    from military service the original number was 700. That was supposed

    to be the entire yeshiva population, 700, and today in the Mir Yeshiva

    alone there are over 3,500 men.

    By the way, the idea that Jews once looked this way is a fallacy. It

    comes from the fact that the secular Jews bought the story that the

    Haredim represent a Judaism that had existed for thousands of years,

    but in historical terms the Haredi movement is relatively new. It can

    be traced back to the 18th century when the Hatam Sofer established

    breakthrough of the Haredi movement came in the 19th century when the

    rabbis were frightened when a new concept penetrated the Jewish world,

    the concept of secularism. Secular Jews came in two forms, one was the

    enlightenment movement and the other was the Zionist movement, and

    against these two movements arose a counter-movement of religious

    Jews. This counter-movement created you, the Haredim.

    believe me, check it out for yourselves. Look at history honestly and

    response to Haredi-ism, but Haredi-ism is a response to secularism.

    And from the very first, these two movements were in constant conflict

    until they reached the point of confrontation, and you won that

    confrontation.

    You won, not only in terms of numbers, but also in the Haredi presence

    in politics and the settlement movement and as a consumer force and in

    the streets and the culture and the educational system, you won in all

    these places. And looking at you here, having heard the statistics, I

    expect you to win in the job market as well.

    There are two reasons for your victory: The first reason is

    demographic, of course. When the State of Israel was founded the

    founders had a certain vision, a clear perception of what it should be

    like. It should be a socialist, secular, European state. That was the

    mainstream vision, and it held out for 50 years, but different tribes

    gradually formed around the mainstream.

    The Haredi-Ashkenazi tribe and the Haredi-Sephardi tribe and the

    came here from North Africa that turned into the tribes of the

    the Ethiopian tribe, and each tribe had its needs and demanded

    something from the mainstream.

    Some of them had religious needs, like your tribe, the Haredi tribe,

    and others had political needs like the national-religious tribe,

    which instituted the settlement effort after 1967, or there were

    economic needs such as those of the tribes of the periphery or the

    Russian and Ethiopian tribes. Each tribe wanted something and each ate

    away at the mainstream and the tribes gradually infiltrated all the

    traditional mainstream axes of power, at first in the IDF, then in

    academia, then in business.

    And when the mainstream of Israeli-ness tried to defend itself,

    because every group instinctually defends its own interests, the other

    accept that. And they were right, because the mainstream really did

    have had to tolerate that.

    And something else happened besides, the mainstream was no longer the

    themselves traditional or religious than secular. And Jerusalem is a

    much bigger city than Tel Aviv, and since 1977 the capitalist right

    wing has been in power most of the time, 34 out of 40 years, and a

    survey from 1994 showed that 56 percent of the public believes that

    the Torah was given at Mt. Sinai.

    It became clear that the balance between the tribes and the mainstream

    has been upset. The mainstream is no longer the majority. Neither

    numerically, nor economically, nor politically, nor ideologically.

    happened: the mainstream got fed up. The mainstream looked to the left

    things of me, if they want me to lead the country, let them lead it

    too.

    And the mainstream turned into a tribe.

    business, I can get married in Cyprus in a civil ceremony, and I have

    to defend democracy because the other tribes, instinctively, are

    oppressed them.

    years.

    become a country of nothing but tribes.

    survive like this. Not only Israel but no country in the world can

    survive without a common center, without a broad base on which every

    can agree.

    And that leads me to the second reason why we lost and you won: the

    spiritual reason. When the Zionist fathers came to Israel they said

    they wanted to build a melting pot for the Jews, and they truly looked

    for a broad base of agreement between the different sectors. They

    ignored the fact that the Jewish people already had such a base.

    Because the Jewish people had a Father. They wanted to build a

    secular, socialist melting pot and ignored the fact that the Jews had

    an ancient Father who had maintained and protected them for 2,000

    years, and this ancient Father of course is the God of Israel.

    and cultural foundation of the Israeli ethos?

    The founding fathers tried to skip from the Bible straight to modern

    times. They wanted to establish a Biblical ethos, not a Talmudic one.

    Because the Bible took place here. Because King Saul went to find his

    They planned to base the bond between the Israeli people and the Land

    of Israel on the Bible because almost all of them were yeshiva

    scholars who took off their kippot and to them, the Talmudic tradition

    belonged to the exile, to the home they had decided to leave.

    So in order to establish this Biblical ethos they decided to skip over

    the Mishnah and the Midrash and the Talmud and the Golden Age of Spain

    and the Ramhal and the Hatam Sofer, as well as Bashevis Singer and

    Shalom Aleichem and Rabbi Nachman of Breslav. And instead of a

    multi-dimensional, multi-sectoral vision that could include all the

    different types of Jews, they created an ethos that suited secular

    Ashkenazi socialists and they wanted all the other tribes to submit to

    ourselves.

    So we tried to rely only on ourselves, but our attempt failed. If

    socialist to withdraw even more into his tribe, especially when he

    realized that the vision he was being offered had no room for what was

    our being here. Because if we take our ancient Father out of the

    picture, what are we doing here? Why would a secular person choose to

    live in the worst neighborhood in the world, among a billion Muslems

    that makes it worth living here. We realized that this was a problem

    in 1967, just after the Six-Day War.

    Because although the war was run by secular people, the reaction to

    the war was utterly religious. Following the conquest of regions of

    but there was a tremendous outburst of religious sentiment that led to

    the founding of the settlement movement, but even more so, it led to a

    sense of the miraculous. It was felt by widespread sectors of the

    understand, that may not oblige us to keep all 613 commandments, but

    already here. And the initial significance of this victory is that we,

    the secular Jews, have to admit that our vision, the vision of a state

    partners,

    started by a Haredi from Bnei Brak.

    the country will be, or the relationship between the citizen and the

    Israel. And if another huge fire breaks out on Mt. Carmel

    responsibility as much as mine.

    You won, and that means the time has past when you could stand on the

    winners, which means I can say to you: You have to consider my needs,

    your life possible in this country, you also have to find a way

    to make my life possible in this country.

    Because victory has its costs. Losing has no cost. Losing is always

    its own cost. But victory has its cost because it imposes

    influence the Israeli way of life just as much as me, so you have to

    ask yourselves the question: What responsibility does this impose on

    Can you still tell yourselves that only secular Jews should join the

    that the only poor people you care about are poor Haredim, and you

    look at the problems that concern Israel, first and foremost the

    allow yourselves to remain silent when a group of Haredi extremists

    tries to force the State to endanger human lives and move the

    Emergency Ward at Barzilai Hospital in Ashkelon?

    Israeli as them, and that makes you responsible for their children

    help them.

    they were good parents and they loved you and tried to give you the

    skills that children need who belong to a privileged minority living

    among an indifferent or hostile majority. Your parents taught you to

    protect yourselves and your friends and relatives and your lifestyle.

    not necessary because Talmud study sharpens the mind and Haredi

    students can easily make up for them later. This claim has two parts,

    one true and one untrue. The true part is that Talmud study sharpens

    whoever studies it becomes both a better person and better trained

    intellectually.

    English they have no trouble making up for it. They do, because the

    human mind simply takes in languages and sciences

    much more easily at an early age. A few months ago there was a big

    conference at the Technion on employment in the Haredi sector. Shimon

    Technology, the oldest academic institution for training Haredim, and

    Shimon Weiss revealed the incredible statistic that more than 50

    percent of Haredi men who are accepted to the college prep program in

    the technological fields drop out before they graduate. More than

    half. Among Haredi women who do study math and English the dropout

    rate is between 5 and 7 percent.

    familiar with this. I realize you want your children to study Torah

    too,

    rabbis, give them a chance. 6 hours a week. 4 hours a week. Something.

    After all, you want to give your children the skills of winners.

    They should know not only math and English but also what financial

    what their rights and obligations are, and they should understand

    technology because they live in a technological world which will be

    much more technological when they grow up.

    And they should know something else, they should know their neighbors

    across the street, they should know us.

    Haredi-secular relations in Israel, which is the Yom Kippur Law.

    Israel has the hametz Law, but still, all over Israel people eat

    hametz on Passover and buy and sell leaven on Passover. And Israel has

    the Pork Law, but still, all over Israel people eat pork and buy and

    sell pork. And the only law that they keep scrupulously is the Yom

    Kippur Law.

    On Yom Kippur, not one secular Jew in Israel drives out of his

    driveway. And not one secular Jew in Israel would even dream of eating

    in public on Yom Kippur. Do you know why secular Jews keep the Yom

    Kippur Law so stringently? Because there is no such law. The Yom

    responsibility towards you to do our best to enable you to live your

    lives in your way and based on your beliefs.

    his own tribe acts, someone who sees himself as part of a broader

    society, as part of a nation. It obliges you to act with the kind of

    generosity and courtesy that oppressed minorities may not be able to

    afford, but you can afford.

    tremendous advantages, this campus is a good example of that, because

    thanks to this victory the next generation of Haredim, or at least

    intolerable in a modern society.

    And thanks to this victory you can speak to us about public space in

    Israel which will eventually break down the Haredi ghettos. I realize

    guests or foreigners in this country which is just as much yours as

    mine,

    have to be such a reaction against secularity and you can ask

    culture and poverty and how extremists rule every aspect of your

    lives.

    either, yet secular parents circumcise their sons.

    And we can hold midnight study sessions on Shavuot with thousands of

    secular participants dressed in white who come to study Talmud and

    you can take your future in your hands and decide what your

    relationship to us will be. This victory enables you to be first class

    citizens

    work quite a lot for their country. First class citizens take

    responsibility for its security, for the welfare of its people, for

    equality, for its international relations, and more than anything else

    Thank you very much.

  • #927378

    This Lapid sounds worse than his father. And that is aside from his historical revisionism about Chareidim. Of course Chareidim are practicing the same default Judaism that Klal Yisroel has been practicing since Har Sinai.

  • #927379

    HaLeiVi
    Member

    I know. We rejected the teachings of Rabbi Dr. Rashi and Herr Rabbiner Joseph Qairo, and the university of higher education for advanced Tosafists. Then, from Russia, Poland, Israel, Iraq, and Teiman we joined the Chasam Sofer’s brand new invention, the Torah — oh, I mean, Chareidologyismness.

    In my study of psuedo-history, I’m trying to figure out (i.e. re-arrange) who’s who. So, did Rebbe Akiva Eiger join his son-in-law’s new movement? Was he against it? What about the Beis Meir, for example? (Beis who? Beis Yehudy did you say?)

    Oh, great Lapid, please teach me some more words of divine wisdom.

  • #927380

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Of course – default Judaism. Of course we were wearing shtraamele and bekeshe at Maamad Har Sinai.

    Of course, there was no one in the field to leave leket and peah which are mitzvos deoraiso because everyone was in beis medresh learning.

    Of course, the same default Judaism – oblivious of the fact, for example, of the takonos of Rabeinu Gershom. No multiple wives – Excellent takonoh – NOT from maamad Har Sinai.

    Th truth is, this Lapid may indeed be “worse” than his father, because his father was consumed by his distaste for chareidm and all frum Jews, whereas this Lapid isn’t so easy to pigeonhole as a hatemonger, because he isn’t. He is more interested in effective solutions to what he sees as problems than he is in simply making public mockery like his father did. That makes him more dangerous to the status quo than his father ever was.

    If you really want to put your head in the sand, I suppose you could ignore him. But he isn’t going away anytime soon. In his speech, I saw many things where reasonable compromise could work without compromising halocho. maybe that’s a starting point.

  • #927381

    avhaben
    Participant

    A few short years ago they also said Tommy Lapid wasn’t going away anytime soon.

    And see where he is now.

  • #927382

    playtime
    Member

    HaLeivi:

    Head on! – had a great laugh

  • #927383

    Ben Levi
    Participant

    Is Lapid serious?

    The Chilonim keep Yom Kippur as a compromise to the Chareidim?

    Who is he kidding?

    The Chilonim circumcise their sons because out of respect for the Chareidim?

    He really is hallucinating.

  • #927384

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Of course – default Judaism. Of course we were wearing shtraamele and bekeshe at Maamad Har Sinai.

    Sure, if you define things superficially, you’ll find very significant differences.

    Of course, there was no one in the field to leave leket and peah which are mitzvos deoraiso because everyone was in beis medresh learning.

    Now you’re talking about a difference of substance. However, this is a new adaptation, well after the Chasam Sofer, so his point is muddled, at best. This is an adaptation to emerging realities (not the least of which is the army/work issue), and if anything, undermines his point that, according to charedim, “chodosh assur min haTorah” is an absolute dogma.

    He is more interested in effective solutions to what he sees as problems than he is in simply making public mockery like his father did. That makes him more dangerous to the status quo than his father ever was.

    He does claim so. It’s also very possible that his motivation in taking a less confrontational stance is to be more effective than his father, but that he shares the same goal.

  • #927385

    RabbiRabin
    Member

    A beautiful and politically savvy speech the kind that could only come from the likes of the Nachash Hakadmoni. Connive the enemy by chanifah. “Hashem only doesnt want you to eat from the tree because then you will be as great as him and hes afraid of that”. At leat we know he has some bible education.

  • #927386

    Lapid is articulate and egotistical in equal parts.

  • #927387

    benignuman
    Participant

    That is a very well done speech.

  • #927388

    uneeq
    Member

    Truthfully, I think of him differently after I heard that speech.

    He sounded honest and intellectual, and he right about many of his points. The problem is that there is no such dialogue between Charedim and seculars when it actually comes down to business.

  • #927389

    Patri
    Member

    Adolph Hitler, too, was a great orator. Did you ever see a video him speaking — and how he would get the crowd roaring? He too was very telegenic.

  • #927390

    akuperma
    Participant

    It would make sense. He believes, as does much of the Israeli ruling class, that after three years in the army, most Hareidim will come out as normal Israelis. They might not make it all the way to hiloni, but at least they’ll be good dati leumi. From his perspective, it means they’ll have “won” by having become “real” Israelis. The demographic threat of Israel turning into a Jewish state, rather than a zionist one, would have been averted. Remember the problem isn’t that the army lack manpower, but that the growing hareidi population is threatening the character of the medinah.

    He’s probably wrong. Traditionally, Jews are like iron. Fire turns them into steel. I would suggest a more likely scenario is we’ll end up with, for better or worse, an Islamic Palestine replacing Israel due both to the army being seriously weakened from within, and the Hareidi community switching from passive acceptance of zionism to active resistance.

  • #927391

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A wise man once said, He who controls the kings treasure, controls the king.

    As long as Money is accepted, there isnt much the Charedim can do, The money can be cut off. When you take somones money, there is always strings attached.

    So if the draft (or national service) is refused, Aid will be cut off and a decision will need to be made either accept some sort of draft/national service or endure even more poverty than exists now even starvation

  • #927392

    avhaben
    Participant

    The Chareidim will stop paying Israeli income tax and their stores wont send in VAT/sales tax and wont pay any other taxes or fees, and the government wont have to send our yeshivas money.

    They dont pay us and we dont pay them. Fair enough.

  • #927393

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Chareidim will stop paying Israeli income tax

    They dont work as they are learning in Kollels. You need to work to pay income taxes.

    VATS are automatically added to all purchases, its impossible to avoid paying it

  • #927394

    avhaben
    Participant

    I said ALL chareidim will stop paying any and all taxes. Working and non-working. Then they don’t have to fund our institutions and stuff.

    Fair enough.

  • #927395

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I said ALL chareidim will stop paying any and all taxes. Working and non-working. Then they don’t have to fund our institutions and stuff.

    Fair enough.

    make sure you dont use any taxpayer paid items like the roads or use the buses. Dont fly as the airports also are run on taxes. Also make sure that they surrender their Israeli passports and only use a foreign passport (If they can get one)

  • #927396

    avhaben
    Participant

    We didn’t ask the government to pave over the original pre-48 roads, etc.. We were happy using them. We can continue using the roads, etc. as we always had before.

  • #927397

    For your information, Zdad, one of the largest roads in EY was built by a charedi entrepreneur. I don’t remember if it is still a toll road and if his firm still collects the tolls, as it was probably a Build-Operate-Transfer project.

    And for Lapid’s information, the Haredi charities help more seculars than they do haredim. If national service includes real work for these organizations, then so be it. This will bring about a wave of tshuva, when people see that the haredim who they hated are better at organizing things they need than the medine is. They already see it when they run to the local Beis Chabad instead of to the consulate or embassy of the medine when they’re in trouble abroad.

    As for foreign passports, it is the seculars who will need and get them soon. Why do you think Belgium suddenly apologized for its treachery during the Churban? Very simple – it wants to separate Jews from Zionists. It also wants to take in refugees when the medine collapses or becomes so miserable because, instead of fighting Iran (a battle it could win), the medine is busy fighting Charedim (a battle it will lose).

    The only type of leader who will save EY is a Jewish Erdogan – a non-isolationist charedi who will make it clear that EY must be Jewish. That means you can do what you want at home, but in the public sphere, there are no avoidable halachic violations. Pork – sure – 500% VAT outside of a zone in Natzeret where no one can buy with an ID card that says Jewish. Treyfe wine or liquor – 1000% VAT because EY produces plenty of good kosher stuff. Operate your factory on Shabbos with no pikuach nefesh reason to do so – sure – only in a zone somewhere in the Galil that is mainly Druze and only with non-Jewish workers – and with a license that is quite costly. Drive on Shabbos – sure – with a permit that costs at least 1000 NIS per month. Weekend – begins Thursday night and ends Sunday morning etc, etc, etc. Toeva – parades are banned, clubs are closed, do what you want in private. Meanwhile, we’ll see what causes this illness and use taxpayer funds to find a cure so we can be laor goyim and put an end to toeva once and for all. Non-Jews posing ss Jews – a sum that is enough to start a new life back where they came from and a one-way ticket for all who want to leave.

    Foreign relations – we have a nuke and if that’s what it takes you to understand that Hashem and not the UN gave us this land, that’s what you’re getting.

    This leader’s name is probably Moshiach ben Dovid.

  • #927398

    mdd
    Member

    Avhaben, stop saying ridiculous things! The Israeli Chareidim pay those taxes from the money they get from the government. If the latter stops paying, there will not be anything to pay the taxes from or buy bread either.Get back from the la-la land.

  • #927399

    mdd
    Member

    Avhaben, get it through your head — it is the Medinah who pays the Chareidi bills, not vise-versa. If both were to say:”We are not paying anymore!”, the Chareidim would lose big time. They won’t have money to buy food (c^v).

  • #927400

    akuperma
    Participant

    Not paying VAT would require open rebellion. Not paying income tax would be easier since its widely ignored. Since the Israelis consider students and teachers to be “unemployed” (since from a zionist perspective, learning Torah is not productive work), they don’t collect income tax on their salaries. The biggest contribution of the Hareidim to the Israeli economy is the large amount of money (including money spent by foreign students) spent on financing Torah studies that comes from other countries; this will dry up since many of the foreign students are being sent by parents who won’t send them if they see escalating conflict in Israeli yeshivos.

    In reality, the only “weapon” of the hareidi community would be to follow the Neturei karta option and ally with the Muslims against the zionists (this was last tried by what is now the Eidah hareidus, but it was then Agudah Yisrael, in the 1920s, and the zionists replied by shooting the frum community’s representative and warned that anyone who tried to make peace with the Arabs would be next). It would take extreme provocation to get the bulk of the Hareidim to prefer a Palestinian state, albeit with Jewish autonomy, over a zionist state (even one that persecutes Jews).

  • #927401

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Lapid, if we won, then you lost. Start by shutting down your theaters and circuses. Tear down your stadiums. Cancel your culture budgets. Replace your malls with batei medresh and your parking lots with yeshiva dormitories. Restore the kollel stipends. Not willing? Then you don’t really believe that we won. Go back and enjoy your life for a few more years until demography catches up and then you’ll see who won.

  • #927402

    ari-free
    Participant

    Forget the draft. Israel doesn’t need another Kent State on its hands.

    Here is Moshe Feiglin’s plan:

    Draft and Equality: A Volunteer Army

    Israel’s population in the sixties and seventies was half of what it is today. Organized armies sat on our borders, waiting for the command to destroy us. Nevertheless, army service was two and a half years and women did not serve in combat units. Today, the only regular army that is a threat to Israel is the Egyptian army (thanks to our peace treaty with Egypt) at the opposite end of the demilitarized Sinai. War has transformed into a high-tech, guerilla conflict. Nevertheless, soldiers are now drafted for three years, because the IDF is considered the “People’s Army.”

  • #927403

    ari-free
    Participant

    akuperma: even if what you are saying is farfetched for chareidim, remember that these “share the burden” geniuses ALSO want to draft Arabs. Yeah, I can just see the people who voted for Zoabi peacefully going along with that one. And those that do go along may very well end up like Major Nidal Hasan in Fort Hood, Texas.

  • #927404

    yael.e
    Member

    zahavasdad – enough of your ignorant hatred.

    Many people who learn in kollel support themselves quite well without the paltry stipend from the government (approximately 700 nis/month – less than $200!) and pay taxes as well.

    I can give you endless examples of people like this. I’ll start with myself.

    My husband has been learning in kollel for about 13 years. I work as a computer programmer (as do many of my friends). We have rental income – which many do as well. we pay income tax, property tax, bituach leumi, mas briut and vat.

    Most of us live much more simply than those who aspire to higher incomes. We don’t have a car or go on vacations or buy luxury items. We have everything we need b’h. It will not be the gov’t which will break us – we rely on hash-m for our parnassah.

    Lapid is a sly character who is trying to charm the chareidim and he will never succeed with the majority.

  • #927405

    The only type of leader who will save EY is a Jewish Erdogan – a non-isolationist charedi who will make it clear that EY must be Jewish. That means you can do what you want at home, but in the public sphere, there are no avoidable halachic violations. Pork – sure – 500% VAT outside of a zone in Natzeret where no one can buy with an ID card that says Jewish. Treyfe wine or liquor – 1000% VAT because EY produces plenty of good kosher stuff. Operate your factory on Shabbos with no pikuach nefesh reason to do so – sure – only in a zone somewhere in the Galil that is mainly Druze and only with non-Jewish workers – and with a license that is quite costly. Drive on Shabbos – sure – with a permit that costs at least 1000 NIS per month. Weekend – begins Thursday night and ends Sunday morning etc, etc, etc. Toeva – parades are banned, clubs are closed, do what you want in private. Meanwhile, we’ll see what causes this illness and use taxpayer funds to find a cure so we can be laor goyim and put an end to toeva once and for all. Non-Jews posing ss Jews – a sum that is enough to start a new life back where they came from and a one-way ticket for all who want to leave.

    I actually mostly agree with this (but do not suggest threatening Nuclear war). Selective taxing of “unwanted” products does a good job of raising money in the US, and since religion is in your ID in Israel, misrepresenting that should be similar to a felony in the US. There are “Blue Laws” that are based on religious ideas, even in the US.

    I think that this should be part of the “compromise” offered. The State becomes much more Jewish, and in return the Charaidim buy into the state.

    Too bad that it will never happen until Moshiach.

  • #927406

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    We haven’t won yet. We’ll have won when the army is chareidi, and we let the chilonim be irreligious objectors.

  • #927407

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Most of my relatives are “Programmers” and and not the computer kind either.

  • #927408

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Daas Yochid, you may be right; he may be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. But I don’t see it. You want to call him misguided, or well intentioned but missing the point in a dangerous way, well I don’t agree but it’s a logical understanding of his approach. If he was as full of hate as his father, he would never put two Rabbis in his slate (including his #2), even if they are Rabbis who you may not regard highly. If he was into giving a shtoch, those Rabbis would be conservative and reform “Rabbis”, but they are not, they are dati tzioni and chardal.

    If you look at his historical analysis, It seems clear to me that he took the rhetorical approach of a socio-historical dialectic in his speech, and not a simple historical approach. Not surprised he’s drawing the conclusions he does within the context of the point he’s trying to make. Happens a lot when politicians play with history.

    And unfortunately, the definition of “chodosh” is entirely arbitrary and entirely in the hands of those who asser it for themselves, so it undermines his argument less than it does the consistency of those who define themselves by the Chasam Sofer’s perspective.

  • #927409

    mdd
    Member

    Yael, how many Israeli Chareidi women do you know who work as computer programmers full-time and support the family?

    Or is it just that Joe now appears under female screen names also?

  • #927410

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    I simply don’t understand everyone problem with what Lapid is saying. It’s true, believe it or not, that to a certain extent the Israeli Chareidi mindset is a result of the Chasam Sofer. When the Endarkenment started, the Chasam Sofer and Rav Hirsch were the biggest fighters against it. They used vastly different approaches, though. The Chasam Sofer famously said “Chodosh Assur Min HaTorah” and assured any connection with the outside world. Rav Hirsch endorsed a way to connect the outside world to Torah. Elu V’Elu. The idea that a Yid cannot be a Yid if he has a job that involves contact with the secular world (lo aleinu!) is ridiculous and never existed in Frum society.

    Israeli Chareidi society is a combination of an outgrowth of the Chasam Sofer-niks and the stark opposition to the Zionist state which sought to destroy Torah. Well now they are admitting defeat. Torah is l’neitzach netzachim and the secular Zionists are just beginning to understand that and changing their world accordingly.

    Now we are in a very unique situation that we don’t need to cut everything off from the outside world nor fit new lenses to view it. We can literally mold the outside world ourselves. We can create Chareidi colleges, Chareidi banks and Chareidi law firms. Why isn’t this happening? Because many insist that to continue to be “Chareidi” one mustn’t leave the Yeshivas. Well we don’t have to leave Yeshivas, we can bring the Yeshivas with us! Frum society cannot support a community that lives off of a Kollel stipend and secular society is opposed to the idea.

    The secular parties in Israel have offered numerous compromises, like the Tal Law, but none have been accepted by the Chareidim. It’s time that the Chareidim understand that you don’t have to compromise Torah in order to change the lifestyle that has been the norm for the past 60 years.

    The concept of never leaving the Daled Koselos Bais Medrash has passed. It’s time that Chareidim start working and going to college. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

  • #927411

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Yserbius123,

    You and Yair Lapid must be a talmidim of Obama. He thinks he knows better what’s in Israel’s best interest than do the Israelis, and you thinkyou know what’s best for charedim. No thanks, we’ll stick to the opinion of R’ Aron Leib, not yours and Lapid’s.

    If Lapid was so interested in accommodating the charedim, he wouldn’t insist that females join the army or S.L.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/Headlines+&+Breaking+Stories/154404/Sharing+the+Burden:+Lapid+Verses+Ya%E2%80%99alon.html

  • #927412

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @DaasYochid

    Just because I agree with a single speech that Lapid gave does not mean that I agree with every thing he’s ever said, much of which I’m certain is pure k’fira.

    R’ Aron Leib Shteinman famously said that Yeshiva Bachurim who are not learning properly should join the Nachal Chareidi, which is why you see disgusting and slanderous loshon hora graffiti about him all over Geula and Meah Shearim.

    All I’m saying is that being a Chareidi and sitting in Yeshiva because (and don’t even try to argue this one) it’s easier than working in a secular environment do not necessarily go hand in hand. They have been artificially made that way and the system must change.

    I spent 3 years in one of the top Israeli Chareidi Yeshivas in Eretz Yisroel so don’t try to tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. Some ten percent of the bachurim barely showed up to sedorim on time, and many weren’t seen in the Bais Medrash for months. This was considered low for a Chareidi Yeshiva. Most of them would be modeh to me, the outsider, that the system is messed up and must be changed, it’s just that everyone was afraid to do anything for fear of some sort of mass secularization of Yeshivalite.

  • #927413

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    This speech was NOT given after the election, it was given at Ono College in late 2011.

  • #927414

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Y123,

    Of course you don’t agree with everything he’s ever said, but my point was that this speech is phony.

    Please don’t tell me what I can or cannot debate. I have my own experiences to draw from. Your experience cannot define the whole issue. That would be quite narrow.

    My argument was never against nachal charedi for those who are wasting their time.

  • #927415

    Gamanit
    Participant

    I’m not Israeli, but I’m definitely chareidi and both of my parents work full time as computer programmers. My father didn’t really learn English in school, so he was given books to learn from at home. He taught himself programming without going to college. Yes, it’s possible. My mother didn’t go to college either, just a few courses.

  • #927416

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    DaasYochid

    It’s just that it’s an issue that’s simply not up for debate. You can attempt to justify it, but the facts on the ground are that a huge percentage of Chareidi society exists due to the welfare trap. Why should a person subject themselves to long work hours, secular college courses and less learning for a meager income when they can easily sit in Kollel and have the government pay for everything.

    It’s funny, you know? The Zionist government is the biggest supporter of limud haTorah in the world ever.

    Lapid isn’t interested in accommodating the Chareidim, he’s interesting in eliminating the Chareidim. It doesn’t make his speech any less relevant or true. He understands that Chareidim aren’t going anywhere, so he compromises on his end and asks for them to meet him somewhere in the middle. The problem is that the Chareidim don’t seem to want to move from the far right. Even the “girls in the army” non-issue could have been up for debate, had they actually bothered debating it instead of throwing away the entire plan.

  • #927417

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Of course it’s not up for debate. The Torah world will never allow the secular government to determine who gets to stay in the beis midrash and who doesn’t.

  • #927418

    mdd
    Member

    Daas Yochid, it is important for you and the Israeli Chareidim to get back to Earth from their la-la land. They are not some independant entity that has it’s own economy and army. What if the frei stop the money-flow? They could be in for a rude awakening.

  • #927419

    plonis3141
    Member

    Wondering where all of you people get your info.

    Your completely false statements are in the CR and in the media in general.

    I am a kollel wife of 18+ years living in E’Y.

    I work (yes, in computers). I pay all of my taxes. Income taxes and city taxes.

    What $ are we and all of the other kollel men getting from the frei? I live in a chareidi community. I would estimate that 99% of the wives work. All Israeli BY girls are trained from birth that they will work to support their husbands in learning.

    The only ones that don’t are the chutznikim who have parents who support them.

    No, I don’t have my own economy. I live and work as a contributing member of the Israeli society. My husband learns all day and is not out drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes, and I sacrifice so that he can do that.

    How dare you go making statements putting down an entire community based on totally inaccurate information?

    Anyone who wants to come and check my bank accounts, is welcome to. I have nothing to hide.

    But find out the facts before you talk. I have to be honest, your attitudes are offensive and just plain ignorant.

  • #927420

    y me
    Member

    Just an important side point to those of you who don’t live in E”Y – The chareidi world here is very different than the chareidi world outside of E”Y. So much so that I know a lot of people who were chareidi in the US but came here to find out that they were not chareidi. I know way too many more people who won’t move here because of this divide – they are chareidi in the US but know in advance that they won’t fit into the chareidi thing here. How sad is that!?!?

    This is partially to do with how people define themselves – the word chareidi is just a word and the concept behind it is a moving target.

  • #927421

    yael.e
    Member

    mdd: quite a few actually – have you heard of matrix?

    Personally I don’t work there, but it is a system set up completely for chareidi women to work in hi-tech and it has several branches. The salary there is not competitive with the hi-tech sector, but for families who live simply, it is enough.

    Mine was just meant to be a case in point that kollel families can be self-supporting.

    Maybe you didn’t see part of my post: the gov’t stipend is approximately 700 nis/month – less than $200! Why do you think that this is the kollel system’s lifeline?

    There are many poor who benefit from gov’t programs in israel, and I wouldn’t be certain that the lomdei torah are the majority in that group. Have you done a statistical study on this?

  • #927422

    mdd
    Member

    “Mine was just meant to be a case in point that kollel families can be self-supporting”. Yael.e, exactly! It was an example of what could be, but that is not the general matzav of the Chareidim there. You live in R.B.S also, probably?

    The fact that the Israeli kollel system exists on the government money is well known. It seems that it is you who need to do some research.

    Plonis, Israeli Chareidi women do not get full-time well paying jobs which bring in enough to support a family. The kollel system there exists only because the frei shell out a lot of money for it. I know you do not have a lot of extra time, but, maybe, do some research. You are not the whole Chareidi world over there!

  • #927423

    mdd: Your argument is absurd. The wives don’t need a high paying job. They get even a lower paying job and it is enough for a simple life. And the money the government pays kollel families is almost nothing! It certainly isnt enough to live on and isnt what keeps the kollel families financially solevant.

  • #927424

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    DaasYochid: You misunderstood what I said. I’m not advocating for the government to force people to leave Yeshivas. I’m simply saying that a reason why Yeshivas are so packed has more to do with welfare traps than limud lismah. It’s not the Zionist governments responsibility to fund Yeshivas and I have no issue with them cutting the funds and do not see it as “forcing” people to leave Yeshivas.

    plonis3141: Do you have any children? Do you remember paying for the hospital bills or insurance costs when you gave birth? No. Because “the frei” payed for that. Does you husband get a kollel check? Where does your husbands kollel get the money from to perform maintenance? Do you have enough money set aside to pay for your childrens chasunas (I’YH)? Why are 99% of meshulachim that come to my house from Eretz Yisroel? Why are 70% of them collecting for their own families? Why do statistics show that some 90% of B’nei Brak lives below the poverty line?

    The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Chareidim don’t make nearly enough money to support themselves without government help, forget about there being enough to support community chessed and mosdos.

  • #927425

    plonis3141
    Member

    Ok people, you really don’t know your information.

    Yes, bli ayin hara, I have kids. Several. And no, I do not live in RBS.

    I have no idea what you are saying about insurance costs – I had my first kid in the US – it cost a lot there. Here, medicine is socialized and EVERYONE pays small monthly fees for kupat cholim. Me inlcluded. All chareidim included. Why is it that the frei are paying for that?

    Yes, by law, money is taken out of my paycheck every month to put away money for later. And the company contributes as well. No, it is not enough money to buy a dirah for each of my daughters, but that is another topic about how things work here.

    That is true for any working peron in E”Y.

    Yes, my hubby gets a kollel check from the mir for around 700 shekels once very few months, when they are able to pay. I am paying for that as much as the frei are.

    Any israeli woman working in computers is making enough money to support her family. (Except if she works for matrix which they only do for the first few years until they have some experience.) Same is true for accounting, bookkeeping, school psychology, the various therapies and many other jobs.

    Those in teaching do not make enough money to support a family well, but families here make do with a lot less. Don’t forget there is no tuition. Most of my neighbors teach in more than one school, to keep the family afloat. Nobody around me is loafing around, sucking the frei of their hard-earned money. Where do you people get your information? From the facts on the ground or from what you are assuming?

    Why is our situation any different than a frei family where the husband works and the mother is home with her kids? Because I am moser nefesh for my husband to learn? Why am I not paying for her births?

    I am not arguing that there aren’t those who need government help, but let’s not make generalizations about the charedim in E”Y who have to wake up to reality. The people around me are all working very hard.

  • #927426

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Daas Yochid, it is important for you and the Israeli Chareidim to get back to Earth from their la-la land. They are not some independant entity that has it’s own economy and army. What if the frei stop the money-flow? They could be in for a rude awakening.

    Klal Yisroel as a whole, and toshvei E.Y. bifrat, are in for a rude awakening if ch”v the support of Torah is halted.

    Who Is Really On Welfare? Basic Hashkafa!

    Don’t forget, this entire situation which we find ourselves in was caused by secular Jews who wanted to redefine Yiddishkeit to exclude Torah. Lapid’s speech was very clear on this point. Why should the Torah faithful community have to bear the brunt of their error?

  • #927427

    To those who claim the kollel and “way of life” support is minimal: I assume you then do not have any issues with removing such support? I would like to hear what Plonis & Yael (and not Joe) think.

  • #927428

    What if the frei stop the money-flow? They could be in for a rude awakening.

    Jews the world over will take up the slack for those who truly want to learn. The rest will join the workforce and start a huge wave of kiruv that would completely change the face of the medine – which is why, in the end, little or nothing will happen. Lapid needs his charedi bogeyman to get in again.

    What if the US turns off the spigot and stops supporting the medine?

    Answer: the frei would run to America (or to the countries that issue them EU passports based on their origins) as dejected refugees, and a core of charedim would remain and find some way to live in peace among the Arabs as they did in Ottoman and British times – probably running their own economy of small and not-so-small businesses and bettering their lot as well.

  • #927429

    Health
    Participant

    Bear – Don’t bother these Zionists with truth -they aren’t interested.

    The Chilonim want the Charedim exactly where they are now. It’s like the US before the civil war -they wanted the slaves. They could never imagine one day that they would be free and one would be President. So this guy Lapid talks big, but as soon as he implements his equality plan -the Charedim won’t be the sub-class anymore. A lot will end up in the army and then they will go to work afterwards. They will take over the economy and then the country and most of the Chilonim will flee the country and the few left will be the new sub-class. So Lapid knows they can’t keep the Charedim down much longer -so he’s trying to make them as miserable as possible in the interim. So he’s a perfect politician – he stands up to get votes based on the hatred of Charedim, but not for a second does he want all the Charedim in the army which in turn would elevate their social status.

    The Chilonim are caught between a hard place and a rock. But sooner or later, they will lose the country -either by forcing the Charedim into the army and then into working or by the coming of Moshiach or by the Arabs taking over. Their time is limited and they know it. And the so-called religious that joined up with this guy will end up with him, just like the followers of Korach. People think Korach was a big Sheigetz, but in reality he looked just as Frum as Moshe Rabbeynu.

  • #927430

    Gamanit
    Participant

    Barack Obama is not a descendant of slaves, although his wife is.

  • #927431

    plonis3141
    Member

    gavra: Like I said. The ONLY money that we “get” is 750 NIS a month as a kollel stipend. That is it. Would I like them not to give it? Of course not, everyone appreciates a little extra cash. Is this money the make it or break it for me? Certainly not.

    Would you like me to refuse any money at all, even the money that the chilonim get, such as for kitzvad yeladim, just because I am not a chiloni? Why should I? I work, and pay taxes, just like they do.

    Am I taking welfare? No.

    Not sure the point of your question. Again, I, like MOST women in chareidi Israeli society, work. I pay taxes. How exactly am I, and most chareidi families mooching?

    I am not disputing the fact that SOME PEOPLE take adavantage and do not even try to put in proper hishtadlus.

    I am disputing the facts as stated here. The VAST PERCENTAGE of chareidi women are working (quite hard) and paying their lawful dues to the government. What dream world are we living in? Why don’t we deserve the same social benefits that others get? How am I living off of the “frei’s” money?

  • #927432

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You cannot raise enough money in the US that will replace any lost welfare benefits, Most Charedim in the US are poor too, with large families. They cannot afford to give much.

  • #927433

    plonis3141
    Member

    zahavasdad – did you hear anyone ask to replace the welfare payments with funds from the US? I didn’t.

    The point here is that the statements like “it is time for the chareidim in EY to wake up and stop taking a free ride from chilonim” are just false and based on misinformation.

    Almost all chareidim’s wive’s work. They deserve the same social benefits as any other family in Israeli society. That is no free ride.

  • #927434

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Someone here is a never ending font of incorrect and/or irrelevant information.

  • #927435

    mdd
    Member

    Plonis, get it! You belong to the small minority of Anglos who support themselves! That is not the case with the Israeli Chareidim! Stop the misrepresentation!

    Daas Yochid, why did the erliche Jews have to put up with the Roman avodah zorah government? It was not right, right? My point is you have to face the reality.

  • #927436

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    zahavasdad – did you hear anyone ask to replace the welfare payments with funds from the US? I didn’t.

    Bear Said….

    Jews the world over will take up the slack for those who truly want to learn. The rest will join the workforce and start a huge wave of kiruv that would completely change the face of the medine – which is why, in the end, little or nothing will happen. Lapid needs his charedi bogeyman to get in again.

    Pick up the slack means (at least to me) that Tzedak will be collected or at least attempt to be collected

  • #927437

    plonis3141: The reason why these benefits that (supposedly) apply to everyone are so high is because the Charaidi parties are well aware that they will get most of the money. It’s like the Kiryas Yoel School district, where they had to try three times to finally get something in that could apply to a single other jurisdiction. Yes it didn’t say KJ (or “for Charaidim only”), but everyone knows that it who it is meant to benefit.

    That is part of the “way of life” support. Lets see what happens in the new administration. Personally I hope they keep them, but I don’t know if that will happen.

  • #927438

    DaasYochid
    Participant

    Daas Yochid, why did the erliche Jews have to put up with the Roman avodah zorah government? It was not right, right? My point is you have to face the reality.

    Ok, I got you to compare the medina to the Roman A”Z government. I guess I’m getting somewhere. 🙂

    Other than that, I’m completely missing your point. When the goyim make gezeiros against us, we do what we can to get out of them, we don’t capitulate because “that’s the reality”.

  • #927439

    Jews the world over will take up the slack for those who truly want to learn. The rest will join the workforce and start a huge wave of kiruv that would completely change the face of the medine.

    Bezras Hashem.

  • #927440

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    plonis:

    I know that a Chareidi family generally make enough from the wife’s job and the kollel stipend to live day to day, but what about big expenses like marrying off kids or buying a house? Even buying clothes becomes a huge expense after a while.

    Also, while I cannot comment on your personal status as you obviously are in a position to know a whole lot more than me, but I have a few questions about how you are describing Chareidi life in Eretz Yisroel. When I was there for Yeshiva, the vast majority of Chareidi friends that I had lived off of the Yeshiva which lived off of American donations. Most of their mothers did not have full time jobs and those that did didn’t make nearly enough to support their children. Almost none of the fathers worked in any non-Yeshiva position. They lived “day to day” based on the fact that the government paid for a huge portion of the Yeshiva starting from Yeshiva Ketana, so children basically stopped relying on their parents from when they turned bar mitzvah until they needed to get married. Did I miss something? Because that’s how most people I knew lived.

  • #927441

    plonis3141
    Member

    First of all, thank you for your respectful reply.

    What you are missing is that you were probably dealing with Anglos. I am referring to the vast majority of Israeli chareidi wives.

    As opposed to what mdd says, my experience is that more anglos have parental support than Israelis and that most Israelis work. Their kids are in mishpachton or tzaharon, or some other day care until the fahter gets home at lunch and he watches the kids until the wife gets home at 3:30-4.

    I never said they had more than enough money for day to day. I said that we are not living off of the frei’s money. The frei are not paying for our kids’ weddings, dirahs, etc. (Don’t ask me who is….no idea, but again, that is not related to the gov’t paying the kollel checks)

    If the kollel stipend is more than the 750 shekles, then of course it helps. People here were questioning the “large” kollel stipends that the government is paying for. Obviously some people try to get into higher paying kollels, but as you said, those are supported by US donors – not by the government.

    In terms of yeshivas, etc. I know that my 3 sons are in cheder which I have to pay every month. (I pay around $120 a month for each kid.) Noone subsidizes that. The fathers, as you say, are in kollel, or have some postition, either in a yeshiva or other klei kodesh.

    The girls’ BY is free, except for fees now and then, until they reach HS, and then it is around 200 shekels a month and then you also have to pay a few hundred shekels a month for transportation.

  • #927442

    mdd
    Member

    Plonis, weddings and dirahs are paid for by the American Chareidim. Your numbers do not end up. How much the allegedly hard working Israeli Chareidi women make already?

  • #927443

    0mdd: What’s the difference how much she is earning? Their families are satisfied with living on little, with a very basic and simple lifestyle. They dont need to live like Americans. And the $200 a month the government pays kollel families is certainly not what keeps the families financially solevent. $200 doesnt even pay for a full week of just the food for a family with 6 children.

  • #927444

    yichusdik
    Participant

    I’m sorry, plonis, you pay $120 per month per kid, or you send your girls to BY for free and you think that isn’t subsidized? Who do you think funds the school for the balance of the cost of educating your children?

    There’s another element which doesn’t apply to you, plonis, but affects you nonetheless. That is the (few I hope, but the number isn’t 0, r’l) kollelim – if that is what they can be called – who are scamming the govt, and collecting funds for people who don’t exist or who are not learning or learning in other institutions. There were a number of these raided last year in Yerushalayim. Every dollar that goes to one of these (few) dishonest places both comes out of the pocket of the taxpayer – including any chareidi taxpayers – and either doesn’t fund chareidi education as it is supposed to or duplicates funding already in place.

  • #927445

    Confucious
    Member

    Yichusdik: That isn’t a subsidy. Every country in the world pays for children’s school education. Rich and poor.

  • #927446

    truthsharer
    Member

    I presume, not assume, most frum Jews in the US pay a lot more than $120 a month for educating their kids.

  • #927447

    plonis3141
    Member

    mdd: first of all, not sure what doesn’t add up about my numbers, but either way, not sure what the issue is here. I never claimed anything about how Israelis pay for dirahs or chasunahs. The only thing I claimed was that your statements about Israeli chareidim living off of the chilonim is just not the metziyus. It is a convenient, inflammatory statement, but it is just not ture

    yichusdik: the way the israeli system works is the education is free. For everyone. B”Y are recognized by the government, and therefore are free. Cheders are not. I am not sure about this, but I think depending on what your cheder teaches, they get some gov’t support. That is why we pay for the boys and not for the girls. Again, my point is just that it is not subsidized by the “frei” working people,a s opposed to the lazy chareidim.

    In terms of your questions about the numbers, please remember that Israeli couples, as opposed to Americans, usually own an apartment and do not have to pay a mortgage or tuition, except for the numbers discussed above. Medical care is also socialized, so the costs are much lower than you American are used to thinking about.

    That is not to say that people don’t struggle, just giving you an idea.

    I do not want to start listing my income, or someone else in computers, and then all of our expenses. My point in getting involved here at all was just to clarify some misconceptions about Isreali chareidim.

  • #927448

    Confucious
    Member

    tsharer: Most countries, including in Europe, pay for children’s education regardless whether it is in a religous or secular school.

  • #927449

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    plonis:

    Actually the vast majority of people I knew were Israelis, not Anglos. I found that amongst Anglos it was a lot more common for the father to have a job, as it’s easier to get out of army duty. I simply find it hard to believe that there are so many jobs in Eretz Yisroel that allow a women to take care of her family, work at home and still support a full family.

    That being said, allow me to get back to my original thoughts. I just have a very difficult time understanding the Chareidi lifestyle and why the vast majority of Chareidim put such an emphasis on not changing it one iota.

    Let’s understand one thing: Kollel Yungelite keep the world standing. Many of the greatest Rabbonim alive today wouldn’t be who they are without kollel. That being said, I do not believe that a kollel lifestyle is for everyone. My issue with the Chareidi system is that it basically forces <i>everyone</i> to adopt that lifestyle. An American Oleh, farinstance, who knows himself well enough usually decides that Eretz Yisroel is the place to live as it’s a lot cheaper and easier to live there while learning in Kollel. His children, though, don’t have the same choice. They can either sit in Kollel tug unt nacht, or they can join the army (which is not really a choice in most Chareidi families).

    What I have difficulty with is how every time the idea is floated to give Chareidim a choice whether to sit in Kollel forever or do something else, it’s always hotly opposed with angry shouts of people claiming that they are dragging Yungerlite away from their learning and mothers from their children. Why can’t Chareidi politicians, Rabonim and askonim petition for some sort of compromise where whomever wants to sit in Kollel may do so and whomever wants to go to work may do so too?

    Now, let’s face it. Some 99% of tax revenue comes from the non-Chareid sectors in Israel, yet the much more that 10% the national budget is spent on Chariedim. Why shouldn’t the non-Frum be upset about this?

  • #927450

    Confucious
    Member

    Yserbius: The chiloni Israeli government is NOT giving us a choice (even under the new proposals to change the law) of going to work without going through army service. So as you agree that army is not a realistic option for us, even if someone were to want to go to work instead of Kollel he couldn’t do so (since he didn’t do army service.)

    And, btw, I believe your tax percentages to be way off.

  • #927451

    plonis3141
    Member

    yserbius: the point of this thread is the chilonim supposedly supporting the chareidim. That is the only point I was addressing.

    Your questions are good ones, and you are not the first one to take note of it. In E”Y, by the chareidim, it is basically learn in kollel or you are not considered acceptable mainstream chashuva ben torah. America provides a lot more options to be a chushuva ben torah who is not in kollel all day.

    But I think all of that is another topic.

    I also think that your percentages on the taxes are way off.

  • #927452

    The chiloni Israeli government is NOT giving us a choice (even under the new proposals to change the law) of going to work without going through army service.

    IIRC, that was exactly what Lapid suggested. A five year break, where Charaidim could legally join the workforce at 18.

  • #927453

    Confucious
    Member

    gaw: I don’t believe that is correct. Even Vice PM Yaalon (whose proposal is more liberal than Lapid’s) is only offering to lower the age we can start working from 28 to 26.

  • #927454

    Confucious: Check it out from Yesh Atid’s platform (on their website):

    Yesh Atid’s plan for “equal service for all,” not only aims to solve the problem in a systematic manner, but, in doing so, also takes into account the needs and sensibilities of the ultra-orthodox population . In fact, ultra-orthodox were involved in formulating the plan. The Yesh Atid plan states plainly and simply: For the next five years, open the doors for 18-year-old ultra-orthodox young men to go to work with no requirement to serve. During those five years the National Authority for Civilian Service will identify the differing needs throughout Israeli society and arrange to address those needs by harnessing those who will enter National Service after the initial five year period. Furthermore, during those five years, a payment plan will be established for combat soldiers who serve for a full three years.

    During those five years, the army will develop programs to facilitate the service of much larger numbers of ultra-orthodox citizens to serve in the army, and national service models will be created to be specifically geared to the needs of the ultra-orthodox (and Arab) populations. These options will include serving in hospitals and homes for the elderly, enhancing the security of neighborhoods in conjunction with the police, assisting Magen David Adom/Hatzalah/ZAKA, and providing much-needed support in educational institutions with a focus on easing the burden of those engaged in special education.

    Sounds reasonable to me. No jail for dissent, work right away, programs to facilitate the needs of Charaidim and Arabs. This could have been something that a pro-Charadi Rov wrote.

  • #927455

    Confucious
    Member

    gaw: That’s just it. After the 5 year grace period Yesh Atid wants to force us into the army. As yseribus agreed, we cannot agree to army service. (Even if we don’t do Kollel. We could agree to go to work at age 18 or 20 or whatever, with no Kollel and no Kollel stipend/payments.)

  • #927456

    That’s just it. After the 5 year grace period Yesh Atid wants to force us into the army.

    No such animal. Once again:

    Those who refuse to serve will forfeit all government funding with the exception of basic social security.

    No one is talking about “forcing” anyone else. You simply do not get the benefits of government funding.

  • #927457

    Confucious
    Member

    gaw: I don’t think yesh atid is proposing the State forgo the current criminal penalties for draft dodging. (If they were, their platform would state repealing the criminal penalties.) They seem to be proposing to add on financial penalties. In which case my point still stands.

  • #927458

    Confucious
    Member

    Check the new story:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/155017/Yesh-Atid-Rejects-Ya%25E2%2580%2599alon-Share-the-Burden-Plan.html

    Yesh Atid is pretty clear they wish to force chareidim into the draft with more than just a threat of loss of benefits. They are talking fines and criminal penalties.

  • #927459

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Learning supports Jews. Serving in the treif army supports the medina and the chilonim. Working in the medinas economy does much the same. It’s not a matter for personal choice. Generations of gedolim are on record about it. I didn’t join their army and my children and all kosher children won’t either. Those who are tempted by the “adventure” and the promise of being allowed to work are giving into the yetzer r”l.

  • #927460

    Gamanit
    Participant

    I find it funny that Yair Lapid says you won so now you have to defend the country. Since when does the loser decide what the winner should do? I always thought that the winner decides how to go further… I guess I was mistaken.

  • #927461

    Health
    Participant

    Confucious -“Yesh Atid is pretty clear they wish to force chareidim into the draft with more than just a threat of loss of benefits. They are talking fines and criminal penalties.”

    If this guy is serious – then him and his Zionist “Rabbi” assistants are suicidal. He should have learnt from his father – not to start up with the Charedim. His father was a failure and he’s following in his footsteps.

    I don’t know if we are about to have Milchemas Gog Oomagog, but the situation in the Middle East is ripe for a war. I’m not talking about the so-called “Palestinians”, but about Russia, Iran & Syria. If you want to prevent this war -we need even more people sitting and learning. If he starts pulling people now out of Kollel – these Zionists are going to learn the hard way what the Torah says about K’oach V’otzem Yodi!

    It’s amazing how the Chilonim have changed since the sixties. Back then most Chilonim realized that the 6-day war was Nissim Geluyim. Look how far even some so-called “religious Zionists” have come since then. They don’t even know what the Torah says about K’oach V’otzem Yodi Osseh Es Hachayil (Pun – Chayil) Hazeh!

  • #927462

    “Learning supports Joes. Serving in the Joe army supports the Trolls. Working in the Joe economy does much the same. It’s not a matter for personal choice.”

    Now I understand why there are so many of you!

  • #927463

    Confucious: I don’t see that in the article. I guess we will see what happens. The state knows that the Charaidim will be happy to go to jail for their beliefs, so jail is no deterrent.

  • #927464

    yael.e
    Member

    gavra_at_work: let me tell you a story, When I got married, my parents b’shita said wouldn’t give us a penny of support – and they never did. And guess what – It’s great! You know why? becuase then i don’t have to feel beholden to them and justify my choices to them. I can live as my own independent person. I believe it would be the same with the gov’t. If not for the pittance they gave us, we wouldn’t have to answer to anyone for our choices.

  • #927465

    mdd
    Member

    Yael.e, you have to count everything. That includes tax credits, havtachat hahnasah, child allowances. And that’s to a lot of people who financialy do not contribute to the budget.

    I personally know that the zechus of Talmud Torah is a very great one. Just you have to consider how it looks to the outsiders.

  • #927466

    yael.e:

    So why do you take anythong now? More so, your “Gedolim” insist on taking the money!!

    Let’s see what happens.

  • #927467

    Health
    Participant

    To all the Zionists here:

    It seems that because of Lapid’s arrogance, esp. his desire to be PM when he has not even sat one day in the Knesset, the Likud is NOW looking into a coalition between Shas, YH, the Mizrachy Bennett (BY), T. Livny and Kadima. And they are counting on the fact that Bennett will concede on forcing the Charedim into the army. If not, I guess they’ll send him the same way as Lapid.

    He didn’t learn from his father who tried to put down the Charedim when he was in the Gov. To all those who think “Koach V’ozem Yodi” and keep trying to force the Charedim out of learning – you’ll learn the hard way what it says in the Torah about thinking that it’s all “Koach V’ozem Yodi”!

  • #927468

    Likud is NOW looking into a coalition between Shas, YH, the Mizrachy Bennett (BY), T. Livny and Kadima.

    We should be so lucky. Let’s see what happens.

  • #927469

    mdd
    Member

    GAW, I do not think you are allowed to write Gedolim with “” — -pashtus, bizayon Talmidei Chachomim.

  • #927470

    mdd: depends if they are real or fake. I don’t see Rav Chaim or Rav Elyashiv “selling out” and taking the money. In fact, Rav Elyashiv quit rather than approve the Gerus questions of Rabbi Goren.

  • #927471

    truthsharer
    Member

    He didn’t turn down his pension.

  • #927472

    He didn’t turn down his pension.

    Mah Kesher? The money for the work done prior was not the issue, but rather Rav Elyashiv’s implicit acquiescence to the P’sak (which as a Gadol, he felt needed a Mach’ah).

  • #927473

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Even assuming that all army services are non-negotiable, there is still “Sheirut Leumi”. Why can’t the Chareidim come up with a kosher service that doesn’t have the tznius problems with “Sheirut Leumi”? It’s not just a matter of rejecting army duty, the rejected it and refused to propose an alternative.

  • #927474

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Or even petition the government not to draft Yeshiva bachurim who have been learning for 10 years? Have they ever even considered those things? No! And why not? I have no idea why not, but it seems to me that they are afraid of change.

    Also, statistics show that the poverty level amongst Chareidim is close to 50 percent, compared to %7 in the rest of the country. Of course the Chareidim use a disproportionate amount of the tax money and contribute a disproportionately low amount.

  • #927475

    shein
    Member

    Also, statistics show that the poverty level amongst the destitute is 100 percent, compared to %7 in the rest of the country. Of course the poor use a disproportionate amount of the tax money and contribute a disproportionately low amount.

    We must tax the poor more.

  • #927476

    yael.e
    Member

    mdd: tax credits, child allowance and havtachat hachnasa are for all. its nothing specific to chareidim and is not income dependent. Now, you want to ask if its hashkafically correct to take havtachat hachnasa? Thats a difficult question which I don’t want to get involved in. i will say this, though; I don’t think its prevalent to take it. I personally only know of one family who does take it.

    At least i can see you have some value for talmud torah which unfortunately is glaringly missing from some of the other posters here. Gadol sinas am ha’aretz l’talmidei chachamim – and it shows.

  • #927477

    yael.e
    Member

    GAW: So why do you take anythong now?

    I think my point should have been clear to you. You are just trying to be inflammatory.

    I pay full taxes,bituach leumi, mas briut etc. – should I also not take my D’mei Laydah When I have a baby? Maybe I should insist on paying for my doctors visits as well?

    “More so, your “Gedolim” insist on taking the money!!”

    Very disrespectful. Do you have different “gedolim”? I’d like to know who they are?

  • #927478

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Middle class in Israel are paying 50% or more of their incomes in taxes and living off Overdraft, they cannot pay any more. You can only tax somone so much.

  • #927479

    mdd
    Member

    Yael.e, I actually place very high value on Talmud Torah. My only concern is that if the frei indeed support the Chareidi learning to a significant degree, it is Chillul HaShem to insist on staying in learning on their money against their will.

    About the sinah of am aratzim. There is indeed such a thing as the Gemorah tells us. I,unfortunately, have seen it in real life. Your remark is off, however, when it comes to the posters here. Some of them might place not enough value on Talmud Torah, but it is not more than that. One can’t go and start up with the Goyim, and when they react, start yelling:”Eisav sone le’Ya’akov…”. In a similar vein, a learning person, a Talmud Chochom can’t act inappropriatly and than start yelling “sinas am’aratzim”.

    Btw, while on the subject of sinah, what about the way the E.Y. Chareidim treat other Yidden — Sefardim, Ba’alei Teshuvah, Geirim? I guess it is a topic for a different thread.

  • #927480

    “More so, your “Gedolim” insist on taking the money!!”

    Very disrespectful. Do you have different “gedolim”? I’d like to know who they are?

    Hopefully. As I discussed earlier, any “Gadol” who worships money and is willing to give up on their principles for the sake of money is not a Gadol at all. There are many graduates of JTS who also know how to learn, but that doesn’t make them “Gedolim”. Rabbi Avi Weiss has a large following like a Chassidish Rebbe, but that doesn’t make him a “Gadol” either.

    As for a list, we can start with Rabbi Miller ZTL. Rav Chaim Kanievsky in EY as well (he is NOT a Posek (as he admits himself), but is a “Gadol”).

  • #927481

    Health
    Participant

    mdd -“About the sinah of am aratzim. There is indeed such a thing as the Gemorah tells us. I,unfortunately, have seen it in real life. Your remark is off, however, when it comes to the posters here.”

    Your hypocrisy is astounding. Here it is:

    “Yael.e, I actually place very high value on Talmud Torah. My only concern is that if the frei indeed support the Chareidi learning to a significant degree, it is Chillul HaShem to insist on staying in learning on their money against their will.”

    How you have the Chutzpa to post “against their will” is beyond me!

    You make it sound that the Charedim are the majority in the Knesset. Anything the Charedim get from the Medina is acc. to law. If this was against almost all the Israeli’s will -then the two parties who hate the Charedim the most, i.e. Lapid & Bennett would have gotten more than 31 seats.

    I don’t know why the posters think you respect Limud Hatorah. It’s obvious you don’t. You keep screaming Chillul Hashem – you never learnt the meaning. Your posts are a Chillul Hashem, not taking money from a Medina that legally they can accept.

  • #927482

    RBS.Jew
    Member

    I love it, you go around saying that we only take money because the medinah has laws that let us take it. At the same time you say that the medinah is treif and a horrible thing. Then you’re completely ungrateful & complain that the money is not enough to live off of. Then you say that you really want to work but you’re discriminated against. Then you say that anyone who wants to change the laws is just someone who “hates charedim” but you also yell out that it’s “changing the status quo.”

    Hello!!! Wake up!!! You can’t go around being greedy and then ungrateful and then accusatory… and then be upset about the person who’s paying the bill wanting to “change the status quo.” Of course, then you realize that you’ve been peeing into the well that you drink from so it’s time to quickly run to the people that you’ve been calling “goyim” and playing the “we’re all religious” card and we should all stand together. This is not a hashkafa, it’s being manipulative and it’s a tired act.

  • #927483

    Health
    Participant

    Mods – How did you let this post through?????!?! He has a bad word in his Post!

  • #927484

    Health
    Participant

    RBS.Jew -“I love it, you go around saying that we only take money because the medinah has laws that let us take it. At the same time you say that the medinah is treif and a horrible thing. Then you’re completely ungrateful & complain that the money is not enough to live off of. Then you say that you really want to work but you’re discriminated against. Then you say that anyone who wants to change the laws is just someone who “hates charedim” but you also yell out that it’s “changing the status quo.””

    It’s obvious that you never read my posts. You must just come here to spew your hatred. I personally hold you shouldn’t take money from the Medina for schools and you owe them nothing including going to their army. You can be part of Medical insurance because these type of things every country has. Unfortunately they are running the Country right now.

    I was defending the Charedim that do take money because right now it’s the law and there is nothing wrong to take it and not do army service. If this law changes then these Charedim won’t be able to say give me money and still I’m not going to the army.

    They have every moral right -right now to demand money for their learning Torah because it protects the people of Israel.

  • #927485

    yael.e
    Member

    ++1 Health

    GAW: “Hopefully. As I discussed earlier, any “Gadol” who worships money and is willing to give up on their principles for the sake of money is not a Gadol”

    I agree with you on this point. I’m not even sure which gedolim you’re referring to that are compromising? And its not clear what you mean by compromising, either. Please do not specify any names, however – It may be lashon hara.

  • #927486

    I agree with you on this point. I’m not even sure which gedolim you’re referring to that are compromising? And its not clear what you mean by compromising, either. Please do not specify any names, however – It may be lashon hara.

    I’m not sure how to respond, as I would not name anyone. However, a Gadol is someone who cares about the entity of Klal Yisroel as a whole, and wants to be Mekadesh Shem Shomaiym. Unfortunately, Kiddush Hashem & politics don’t usually mix. In the name of “politics” (meaning you gave us or will give us GELT), Torah principles (such as not promoting LGBT, Shmiras Shabbos for the Klal, Kashrus for the Klal, Yishuv Eretz Yisroel, etc.) are pushed aside so that a specific subgroup of Yidden will have more gelt. That is not what a Gadol of Klal Yisroel does.

    C”V, if we are thrown out of EY because of what happens in Tel Aviv (as the Torah promises), it will be because politicians were too busy getting their minor subgroup gelt instead of improving the Klal as a whole (or passing laws to help it along).

  • #927487

    mdd
    Member

    Yael.e, which points of Health’s do you agree with? If the Chareidim till now were able to play games and push laws through that let them take the money despite the widespread resentment, it does not mean it is not Chillul HaShem. If you and Health(!!!) learn about Chillul HaShem, you”ll see that if a Yid, a Talmud Chocham does something which is not assur but might look bad, it is bona-fide Chillul Shem Shomaim!

    GAW, it is bizui Talmidei Chachomim to put forth such conjectures. It is one thing to have kashos on the p’sak, but what you did is different.

  • #927488

    plonis3141
    Member

    RBSJew – what was that and where do you get your info?

    If you had read through the posts here, you would see that there are plenty of us (Chareidim) who work for a living, pay taxes, and live peacefully in the medinah with our husbands learning. The only thing I can see that would offend anyone else is the fact that our husbands do not go to the army. (Which I think is a different topic.)

    I do not ask for more money. I do not complain about what they give. I do work,I don’t complain about discrimination, and I pay arnona, income tax, mas briut and everything else. Based on the same tax laws as the chilonim.

    What do you find so offensive about our behavior?

    MDD: Again, the premise that we are staying in learning on “their” dollar is what I am disagreeing with…..My husband is in learning on MY dollar. The objection is to the 750 shekels a month?

    GAW: I personally don’t know of any gedolim who are selling their principles in order to keep taking money from the medinah, but maybe you are referring to something I don’t know about?

  • #927489

    GAW, it is bizui Talmidei Chachomim to put forth such conjectures. It is one thing to have kashos on the p’sak, but what you did is different.

    Is it Bizayon Talmidei Chachomim to put forth the same regarding Rabbi Avi Weiss? How about Rabbi Leib Tropper? Rabbi Louis Jacobs?

    Having the title “Rabbi” or “Rebbe” does not shield someone from criticism. Power corrupts. Shochad certainly corrupts.

  • #927490

    RBS.Jew
    Member

    Health – you are living in a fatasy world that is based on your own magical mathematics. You say “I personally hold you shouldn’t take money from the Medina for schools and you owe them nothing including going to their army.” However, you’re obviously oblivious to the basics of economics and life in a society. You think that the only reason you owe the country that you’re living in something is because you get money for your schools!?!?!? The Torah says that the law of the land (any land) is the law that a Torah observant Jew must follow. The laws of the land of Israel have the same halacha and possibly even more so. This is NOT a time or place where the king is demanding excessive taxes that may allow us to halachically not pay them. Anyone living here (even non-citizens) uses tremendous amounts of resources – healthcare, roads, garbage collection, police, fire, electrical & water infrastructure, airport, defense services, the economy, agriculture, etc, etc, etc. You owe something to the government and people here even if you don’t take money for your schools!

    Now, very concerning to me is your claim that “You can be part of Medical insurance because these type of things every country has.” I’m not sure what you’re even referring to but you have certainly justified to yourself the use of a VERY expensive service despite not paying the full bill for it. This country provides a socialized medicine system but that’s NOT the case in most countries at all! I guess some people aren’t aware (Obama supporters sure aren’t) that even socialized medicine has to be paid for. In Israel, there are income taxes that go toward paying for that healthcare – it’s one of the reasons we have higher tax rates than in the US. However, if you aren’t paying full income taxes then you are using very expensive services without paying for it. After a few too many people do that, the system becomes unsustainable and that’s precisely what the current situation is. That’s why there are so many people working to change this situation but the chareidi tzibur just run around saying this is all about “closing yeshivas” and trying to make the chareidim not religious. It’s rediculous and obnoxious to say… the best is when you then call anyone who wants to build a fair and sustainable system “goyim” (all the words of the chareidi parties, NOT mine!)

  • #927493

    yichusdik
    Participant

    The ignorance of basic economic and political realities here is truly astounding.

    First – I live in a country with socialized medicine. It is paid for not only through basic income taxes but also through a surcharge based on salary. So someone who is deliberately not reaching a threshold for income tax is not paying for their medical coverage. Believe it or not, Israel is not the only place where such imbalances exist, nor the only place where they are remarked upon. The rational argument is that IF a person is incapable of supporting the system, the society has a responsibility to sustain him. But IF a person has the capacity to earn and support the system that funds his medical care, but chooses not to – for whatever reason, then the rest of society will see this as an inequity.

    As well, many here have remarked that University students get many of the same subsidies as those learning full time. What they conveniently forget when they make that argument, is that nearly all those in University have completed their military or national service before setting foot in the university or being eligible for subsidies (an exception is made for students in special programs for technical positions in the IDF, where the students go to university first and bring to bear their engineering or other skills when they enter the IDF immediately after graduation. They usually consent to serve an extra year. At Machon Lev, in Yerushalayim, there are a number of students doing this, Learning in the Beis Medrash in the morning and studying engineering in the afternoon/evening, and then entering the IDF. Machon Lev/JCT is a wonderful example, and it also has Chareidi oriented non IDF engineering programs for men and women). Since these students have completed their service, and are then eligible, they wonder why others are eligible without service.

    I’ve mentioned before that those things never discussed that enter into the discussion include intangibles, like government subsidies for corporations that employ Chareidim and others in high tech, or in underdeveloped parts of the country. Yes, the government would do it anyways, but the tax breaks or other incentives ultimately cost money that comes from taxpayers. If people are deliberately keeping themselves under the income tax threshhold, they are not carrying a proportionate share of the economic burden.

    It goes without saying that legislation enacted more than 60 years ago to address the reality at the time cannot be held up as eternal law. Governments come and go, and their decisions in all democracies change. It is a wonder it lasted this long. Shall postage cost the same now as in 1948 because the government determined it cost 2 agorot at the time? Should malls and markets in Israel not have metal detectors and security guards because they didn’t have them in 1948? The idea is ludicrous, as is the insistence on Ben Gurion’s writ being extended leolom voed.

    Finally, I don’t disagree with the concept that Torah learning provides an incalculably valuable service for every resident and citizen of Israel. It makes sense to me. The problem is, I don’t need to be convinced, the electorate does. Israel is a democracy, and in a democracy, you have to convince people to support your position, and vote for it. It is the height of arrogance to assume people will accept your dictate, as if you are a paragon of virtue, probity, and perfection, instead of being, like I am, a Jew who tries to do what Hashem wants and more often than not doesn’t fully succeed. To do this the people of Israel have to be brought to a love of Torah, regardless of whether they are Zionist, anti Zionist, leftist, rightist, centrist, secular traditional, atheist, or anarchist. If you want their vote, you have to do a better job of getting them to love Torah, because right now, its not working. If they don’t love Torah, then you have lost.

  • #927494

    RBS.Jew
    Member

    plonis3141: Obviously I’m not upset at anyone who actually works, pays FULL taxes, pays FULL arnona, pays bituach leumi & mas briut, doesn’t complain about being discriminated against just because someone asks for everyone to work & pay their own way, etc. Look, I know that it’s not easy to see that someone who is different than you and doesn’t agree with a hashkafa that you may associate with is actually not out to get you. I don’t hate chareidim at all despite the attacks I’ve received about that here. It’s not chareidim that I really disagree with, it’s the leadership of the chareidi parties and the others that help set the chareidi culture that I disagree with. I feel that they’re creating and still pushing an unfair and unsustainable system. Chareidi people who work and pay fairly are in my book the same as anyone else here.

    The army thing is an important topic that can’t be ignored either. I’ve said several times that the chareidi movement as a whole (again, the movement and the leadership, not necessarily the individual family) could have done much better by working with the soldiers as opposed to turning their backs on them (at best) or even cursing them (at worst). Make the soldiers feel that their learning is actually part of the betterment of the nation and for our defense. Try setting up chavruta programs with soldiers, set up Shabbos hospitality for soldiers who are not as frum as you, hold special prayer and learning sessions for the safety of the soldiers and security personnel. I don’t mean just hold a tehillim session for your own safety when the missiles start flying but truly daven & learn for the safety of the soldiers that are your counterparts – just like they did in the time of the Tanach. By now, it’s too late and the non-chareidim who have been serving in the army or sheirut leumi are upset and feel used. This was a huge loss for the pro-Torah cause in this country and a missed opportunity for the chareidi movement to improve the religious situation here.

    yichusdik – you said everything so well – and you have a way of saying it that hopefully won’t be taken as inflammatory the way my words are sometimes.

  • #927495

    plonis3141
    Member

    rbsjew – i appreciate your comments and the respectful tone. BTW, I DO pay full arnona and all of my other taxes. (I do get more points for having more kids, but I don’t think that’s the main issue here….)

    I think that the reason I get upset is because of the way you, and others, seem to think that the people like me are so few and far between, when the reality I see is different.

    From my vantage point, as a chareidi woman in a chareidi community, I see that a very large majority of chareidi women work, and work hard to support their families. I am not saying it does not happen that people rely on avtachat hachnasah, etc., but I do think it happens less than you think.

    I think the PR that the chareidim have to the country as a whole is terrible, and that people see chareidim much in the way you do, when, it is not the reality for most. The secular then resent the chareidim and are spewing hate, which makes the chareidim feel frightened and intimidated.

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