Yair Lapid to Chareidim- you won

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  • #927427
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    To those who claim the kollel and “way of life” support is minimal: I assume you then do not have any issues with removing such support? I would like to hear what Plonis & Yael (and not Joe) think.

    #927428

    What if the frei stop the money-flow? They could be in for a rude awakening.

    Jews the world over will take up the slack for those who truly want to learn. The rest will join the workforce and start a huge wave of kiruv that would completely change the face of the medine – which is why, in the end, little or nothing will happen. Lapid needs his charedi bogeyman to get in again.

    What if the US turns off the spigot and stops supporting the medine?

    Answer: the frei would run to America (or to the countries that issue them EU passports based on their origins) as dejected refugees, and a core of charedim would remain and find some way to live in peace among the Arabs as they did in Ottoman and British times – probably running their own economy of small and not-so-small businesses and bettering their lot as well.

    #927429
    Health
    Participant

    Bear – Don’t bother these Zionists with truth -they aren’t interested.

    The Chilonim want the Charedim exactly where they are now. It’s like the US before the civil war -they wanted the slaves. They could never imagine one day that they would be free and one would be President. So this guy Lapid talks big, but as soon as he implements his equality plan -the Charedim won’t be the sub-class anymore. A lot will end up in the army and then they will go to work afterwards. They will take over the economy and then the country and most of the Chilonim will flee the country and the few left will be the new sub-class. So Lapid knows they can’t keep the Charedim down much longer -so he’s trying to make them as miserable as possible in the interim. So he’s a perfect politician – he stands up to get votes based on the hatred of Charedim, but not for a second does he want all the Charedim in the army which in turn would elevate their social status.

    The Chilonim are caught between a hard place and a rock. But sooner or later, they will lose the country -either by forcing the Charedim into the army and then into working or by the coming of Moshiach or by the Arabs taking over. Their time is limited and they know it. And the so-called religious that joined up with this guy will end up with him, just like the followers of Korach. People think Korach was a big Sheigetz, but in reality he looked just as Frum as Moshe Rabbeynu.

    #927430
    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    Barack Obama is not a descendant of slaves, although his wife is.

    #927431
    plonis3141
    Member

    gavra: Like I said. The ONLY money that we “get” is 750 NIS a month as a kollel stipend. That is it. Would I like them not to give it? Of course not, everyone appreciates a little extra cash. Is this money the make it or break it for me? Certainly not.

    Would you like me to refuse any money at all, even the money that the chilonim get, such as for kitzvad yeladim, just because I am not a chiloni? Why should I? I work, and pay taxes, just like they do.

    Am I taking welfare? No.

    Not sure the point of your question. Again, I, like MOST women in chareidi Israeli society, work. I pay taxes. How exactly am I, and most chareidi families mooching?

    I am not disputing the fact that SOME PEOPLE take adavantage and do not even try to put in proper hishtadlus.

    I am disputing the facts as stated here. The VAST PERCENTAGE of chareidi women are working (quite hard) and paying their lawful dues to the government. What dream world are we living in? Why don’t we deserve the same social benefits that others get? How am I living off of the “frei’s” money?

    #927432
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You cannot raise enough money in the US that will replace any lost welfare benefits, Most Charedim in the US are poor too, with large families. They cannot afford to give much.

    #927433
    plonis3141
    Member

    zahavasdad – did you hear anyone ask to replace the welfare payments with funds from the US? I didn’t.

    The point here is that the statements like “it is time for the chareidim in EY to wake up and stop taking a free ride from chilonim” are just false and based on misinformation.

    Almost all chareidim’s wive’s work. They deserve the same social benefits as any other family in Israeli society. That is no free ride.

    #927434
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Someone here is a never ending font of incorrect and/or irrelevant information.

    #927435
    mdd
    Member

    Plonis, get it! You belong to the small minority of Anglos who support themselves! That is not the case with the Israeli Chareidim! Stop the misrepresentation!

    Daas Yochid, why did the erliche Jews have to put up with the Roman avodah zorah government? It was not right, right? My point is you have to face the reality.

    #927436
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    zahavasdad – did you hear anyone ask to replace the welfare payments with funds from the US? I didn’t.

    Bear Said….

    Jews the world over will take up the slack for those who truly want to learn. The rest will join the workforce and start a huge wave of kiruv that would completely change the face of the medine – which is why, in the end, little or nothing will happen. Lapid needs his charedi bogeyman to get in again.

    Pick up the slack means (at least to me) that Tzedak will be collected or at least attempt to be collected

    #927437
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    plonis3141: The reason why these benefits that (supposedly) apply to everyone are so high is because the Charaidi parties are well aware that they will get most of the money. It’s like the Kiryas Yoel School district, where they had to try three times to finally get something in that could apply to a single other jurisdiction. Yes it didn’t say KJ (or “for Charaidim only”), but everyone knows that it who it is meant to benefit.

    That is part of the “way of life” support. Lets see what happens in the new administration. Personally I hope they keep them, but I don’t know if that will happen.

    #927438
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Daas Yochid, why did the erliche Jews have to put up with the Roman avodah zorah government? It was not right, right? My point is you have to face the reality.

    Ok, I got you to compare the medina to the Roman A”Z government. I guess I’m getting somewhere. 🙂

    Other than that, I’m completely missing your point. When the goyim make gezeiros against us, we do what we can to get out of them, we don’t capitulate because “that’s the reality”.

    #927439
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Jews the world over will take up the slack for those who truly want to learn. The rest will join the workforce and start a huge wave of kiruv that would completely change the face of the medine.

    Bezras Hashem.

    #927440
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    plonis:

    I know that a Chareidi family generally make enough from the wife’s job and the kollel stipend to live day to day, but what about big expenses like marrying off kids or buying a house? Even buying clothes becomes a huge expense after a while.

    Also, while I cannot comment on your personal status as you obviously are in a position to know a whole lot more than me, but I have a few questions about how you are describing Chareidi life in Eretz Yisroel. When I was there for Yeshiva, the vast majority of Chareidi friends that I had lived off of the Yeshiva which lived off of American donations. Most of their mothers did not have full time jobs and those that did didn’t make nearly enough to support their children. Almost none of the fathers worked in any non-Yeshiva position. They lived “day to day” based on the fact that the government paid for a huge portion of the Yeshiva starting from Yeshiva Ketana, so children basically stopped relying on their parents from when they turned bar mitzvah until they needed to get married. Did I miss something? Because that’s how most people I knew lived.

    #927441
    plonis3141
    Member

    First of all, thank you for your respectful reply.

    What you are missing is that you were probably dealing with Anglos. I am referring to the vast majority of Israeli chareidi wives.

    As opposed to what mdd says, my experience is that more anglos have parental support than Israelis and that most Israelis work. Their kids are in mishpachton or tzaharon, or some other day care until the fahter gets home at lunch and he watches the kids until the wife gets home at 3:30-4.

    I never said they had more than enough money for day to day. I said that we are not living off of the frei’s money. The frei are not paying for our kids’ weddings, dirahs, etc. (Don’t ask me who is….no idea, but again, that is not related to the gov’t paying the kollel checks)

    If the kollel stipend is more than the 750 shekles, then of course it helps. People here were questioning the “large” kollel stipends that the government is paying for. Obviously some people try to get into higher paying kollels, but as you said, those are supported by US donors – not by the government.

    In terms of yeshivas, etc. I know that my 3 sons are in cheder which I have to pay every month. (I pay around $120 a month for each kid.) Noone subsidizes that. The fathers, as you say, are in kollel, or have some postition, either in a yeshiva or other klei kodesh.

    The girls’ BY is free, except for fees now and then, until they reach HS, and then it is around 200 shekels a month and then you also have to pay a few hundred shekels a month for transportation.

    #927442
    mdd
    Member

    Plonis, weddings and dirahs are paid for by the American Chareidim. Your numbers do not end up. How much the allegedly hard working Israeli Chareidi women make already?

    #927443

    0mdd: What’s the difference how much she is earning? Their families are satisfied with living on little, with a very basic and simple lifestyle. They dont need to live like Americans. And the $200 a month the government pays kollel families is certainly not what keeps the families financially solevent. $200 doesnt even pay for a full week of just the food for a family with 6 children.

    #927444
    yichusdik
    Participant

    I’m sorry, plonis, you pay $120 per month per kid, or you send your girls to BY for free and you think that isn’t subsidized? Who do you think funds the school for the balance of the cost of educating your children?

    There’s another element which doesn’t apply to you, plonis, but affects you nonetheless. That is the (few I hope, but the number isn’t 0, r’l) kollelim – if that is what they can be called – who are scamming the govt, and collecting funds for people who don’t exist or who are not learning or learning in other institutions. There were a number of these raided last year in Yerushalayim. Every dollar that goes to one of these (few) dishonest places both comes out of the pocket of the taxpayer – including any chareidi taxpayers – and either doesn’t fund chareidi education as it is supposed to or duplicates funding already in place.

    #927445
    Confucious
    Member

    Yichusdik: That isn’t a subsidy. Every country in the world pays for children’s school education. Rich and poor.

    #927446
    truthsharer
    Member

    I presume, not assume, most frum Jews in the US pay a lot more than $120 a month for educating their kids.

    #927447
    plonis3141
    Member

    mdd: first of all, not sure what doesn’t add up about my numbers, but either way, not sure what the issue is here. I never claimed anything about how Israelis pay for dirahs or chasunahs. The only thing I claimed was that your statements about Israeli chareidim living off of the chilonim is just not the metziyus. It is a convenient, inflammatory statement, but it is just not ture

    yichusdik: the way the israeli system works is the education is free. For everyone. B”Y are recognized by the government, and therefore are free. Cheders are not. I am not sure about this, but I think depending on what your cheder teaches, they get some gov’t support. That is why we pay for the boys and not for the girls. Again, my point is just that it is not subsidized by the “frei” working people,a s opposed to the lazy chareidim.

    In terms of your questions about the numbers, please remember that Israeli couples, as opposed to Americans, usually own an apartment and do not have to pay a mortgage or tuition, except for the numbers discussed above. Medical care is also socialized, so the costs are much lower than you American are used to thinking about.

    That is not to say that people don’t struggle, just giving you an idea.

    I do not want to start listing my income, or someone else in computers, and then all of our expenses. My point in getting involved here at all was just to clarify some misconceptions about Isreali chareidim.

    #927448
    Confucious
    Member

    tsharer: Most countries, including in Europe, pay for children’s education regardless whether it is in a religous or secular school.

    #927449
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    plonis:

    Actually the vast majority of people I knew were Israelis, not Anglos. I found that amongst Anglos it was a lot more common for the father to have a job, as it’s easier to get out of army duty. I simply find it hard to believe that there are so many jobs in Eretz Yisroel that allow a women to take care of her family, work at home and still support a full family.

    That being said, allow me to get back to my original thoughts. I just have a very difficult time understanding the Chareidi lifestyle and why the vast majority of Chareidim put such an emphasis on not changing it one iota.

    Let’s understand one thing: Kollel Yungelite keep the world standing. Many of the greatest Rabbonim alive today wouldn’t be who they are without kollel. That being said, I do not believe that a kollel lifestyle is for everyone. My issue with the Chareidi system is that it basically forces <i>everyone</i> to adopt that lifestyle. An American Oleh, farinstance, who knows himself well enough usually decides that Eretz Yisroel is the place to live as it’s a lot cheaper and easier to live there while learning in Kollel. His children, though, don’t have the same choice. They can either sit in Kollel tug unt nacht, or they can join the army (which is not really a choice in most Chareidi families).

    What I have difficulty with is how every time the idea is floated to give Chareidim a choice whether to sit in Kollel forever or do something else, it’s always hotly opposed with angry shouts of people claiming that they are dragging Yungerlite away from their learning and mothers from their children. Why can’t Chareidi politicians, Rabonim and askonim petition for some sort of compromise where whomever wants to sit in Kollel may do so and whomever wants to go to work may do so too?

    Now, let’s face it. Some 99% of tax revenue comes from the non-Chareid sectors in Israel, yet the much more that 10% the national budget is spent on Chariedim. Why shouldn’t the non-Frum be upset about this?

    #927450
    Confucious
    Member

    Yserbius: The chiloni Israeli government is NOT giving us a choice (even under the new proposals to change the law) of going to work without going through army service. So as you agree that army is not a realistic option for us, even if someone were to want to go to work instead of Kollel he couldn’t do so (since he didn’t do army service.)

    And, btw, I believe your tax percentages to be way off.

    #927451
    plonis3141
    Member

    yserbius: the point of this thread is the chilonim supposedly supporting the chareidim. That is the only point I was addressing.

    Your questions are good ones, and you are not the first one to take note of it. In E”Y, by the chareidim, it is basically learn in kollel or you are not considered acceptable mainstream chashuva ben torah. America provides a lot more options to be a chushuva ben torah who is not in kollel all day.

    But I think all of that is another topic.

    I also think that your percentages on the taxes are way off.

    #927452
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The chiloni Israeli government is NOT giving us a choice (even under the new proposals to change the law) of going to work without going through army service.

    IIRC, that was exactly what Lapid suggested. A five year break, where Charaidim could legally join the workforce at 18.

    #927453
    Confucious
    Member

    gaw: I don’t believe that is correct. Even Vice PM Yaalon (whose proposal is more liberal than Lapid’s) is only offering to lower the age we can start working from 28 to 26.

    #927454
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Confucious: Check it out from Yesh Atid’s platform (on their website):

    Yesh Atid’s plan for “equal service for all,” not only aims to solve the problem in a systematic manner, but, in doing so, also takes into account the needs and sensibilities of the ultra-orthodox population . In fact, ultra-orthodox were involved in formulating the plan. The Yesh Atid plan states plainly and simply: For the next five years, open the doors for 18-year-old ultra-orthodox young men to go to work with no requirement to serve. During those five years the National Authority for Civilian Service will identify the differing needs throughout Israeli society and arrange to address those needs by harnessing those who will enter National Service after the initial five year period. Furthermore, during those five years, a payment plan will be established for combat soldiers who serve for a full three years.

    During those five years, the army will develop programs to facilitate the service of much larger numbers of ultra-orthodox citizens to serve in the army, and national service models will be created to be specifically geared to the needs of the ultra-orthodox (and Arab) populations. These options will include serving in hospitals and homes for the elderly, enhancing the security of neighborhoods in conjunction with the police, assisting Magen David Adom/Hatzalah/ZAKA, and providing much-needed support in educational institutions with a focus on easing the burden of those engaged in special education.

    Sounds reasonable to me. No jail for dissent, work right away, programs to facilitate the needs of Charaidim and Arabs. This could have been something that a pro-Charadi Rov wrote.

    #927455
    Confucious
    Member

    gaw: That’s just it. After the 5 year grace period Yesh Atid wants to force us into the army. As yseribus agreed, we cannot agree to army service. (Even if we don’t do Kollel. We could agree to go to work at age 18 or 20 or whatever, with no Kollel and no Kollel stipend/payments.)

    #927456
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    That’s just it. After the 5 year grace period Yesh Atid wants to force us into the army.

    No such animal. Once again:

    Those who refuse to serve will forfeit all government funding with the exception of basic social security.

    No one is talking about “forcing” anyone else. You simply do not get the benefits of government funding.

    #927457
    Confucious
    Member

    gaw: I don’t think yesh atid is proposing the State forgo the current criminal penalties for draft dodging. (If they were, their platform would state repealing the criminal penalties.) They seem to be proposing to add on financial penalties. In which case my point still stands.

    #927458
    Confucious
    Member

    Check the new story:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/155017/Yesh-Atid-Rejects-Ya%25E2%2580%2599alon-Share-the-Burden-Plan.html

    Yesh Atid is pretty clear they wish to force chareidim into the draft with more than just a threat of loss of benefits. They are talking fines and criminal penalties.

    #927459
    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Learning supports Jews. Serving in the treif army supports the medina and the chilonim. Working in the medinas economy does much the same. It’s not a matter for personal choice. Generations of gedolim are on record about it. I didn’t join their army and my children and all kosher children won’t either. Those who are tempted by the “adventure” and the promise of being allowed to work are giving into the yetzer r”l.

    #927460
    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    I find it funny that Yair Lapid says you won so now you have to defend the country. Since when does the loser decide what the winner should do? I always thought that the winner decides how to go further… I guess I was mistaken.

    #927461
    Health
    Participant

    Confucious -“Yesh Atid is pretty clear they wish to force chareidim into the draft with more than just a threat of loss of benefits. They are talking fines and criminal penalties.”

    If this guy is serious – then him and his Zionist “Rabbi” assistants are suicidal. He should have learnt from his father – not to start up with the Charedim. His father was a failure and he’s following in his footsteps.

    I don’t know if we are about to have Milchemas Gog Oomagog, but the situation in the Middle East is ripe for a war. I’m not talking about the so-called “Palestinians”, but about Russia, Iran & Syria. If you want to prevent this war -we need even more people sitting and learning. If he starts pulling people now out of Kollel – these Zionists are going to learn the hard way what the Torah says about K’oach V’otzem Yodi!

    It’s amazing how the Chilonim have changed since the sixties. Back then most Chilonim realized that the 6-day war was Nissim Geluyim. Look how far even some so-called “religious Zionists” have come since then. They don’t even know what the Torah says about K’oach V’otzem Yodi Osseh Es Hachayil (Pun – Chayil) Hazeh!

    #927462
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    “Learning supports Joes. Serving in the Joe army supports the Trolls. Working in the Joe economy does much the same. It’s not a matter for personal choice.”

    Now I understand why there are so many of you!

    #927463
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Confucious: I don’t see that in the article. I guess we will see what happens. The state knows that the Charaidim will be happy to go to jail for their beliefs, so jail is no deterrent.

    #927464
    yael.e
    Participant

    gavra_at_work: let me tell you a story, When I got married, my parents b’shita said wouldn’t give us a penny of support – and they never did. And guess what – It’s great! You know why? becuase then i don’t have to feel beholden to them and justify my choices to them. I can live as my own independent person. I believe it would be the same with the gov’t. If not for the pittance they gave us, we wouldn’t have to answer to anyone for our choices.

    #927465
    mdd
    Member

    Yael.e, you have to count everything. That includes tax credits, havtachat hahnasah, child allowances. And that’s to a lot of people who financialy do not contribute to the budget.

    I personally know that the zechus of Talmud Torah is a very great one. Just you have to consider how it looks to the outsiders.

    #927466
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    yael.e:

    So why do you take anythong now? More so, your “Gedolim” insist on taking the money!!

    Let’s see what happens.

    #927467
    Health
    Participant

    To all the Zionists here:

    It seems that because of Lapid’s arrogance, esp. his desire to be PM when he has not even sat one day in the Knesset, the Likud is NOW looking into a coalition between Shas, YH, the Mizrachy Bennett (BY), T. Livny and Kadima. And they are counting on the fact that Bennett will concede on forcing the Charedim into the army. If not, I guess they’ll send him the same way as Lapid.

    He didn’t learn from his father who tried to put down the Charedim when he was in the Gov. To all those who think “Koach V’ozem Yodi” and keep trying to force the Charedim out of learning – you’ll learn the hard way what it says in the Torah about thinking that it’s all “Koach V’ozem Yodi”!

    #927468
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Likud is NOW looking into a coalition between Shas, YH, the Mizrachy Bennett (BY), T. Livny and Kadima.

    We should be so lucky. Let’s see what happens.

    #927469
    mdd
    Member

    GAW, I do not think you are allowed to write Gedolim with “” — -pashtus, bizayon Talmidei Chachomim.

    #927470
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    mdd: depends if they are real or fake. I don’t see Rav Chaim or Rav Elyashiv “selling out” and taking the money. In fact, Rav Elyashiv quit rather than approve the Gerus questions of Rabbi Goren.

    #927471
    truthsharer
    Member

    He didn’t turn down his pension.

    #927472
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    He didn’t turn down his pension.

    Mah Kesher? The money for the work done prior was not the issue, but rather Rav Elyashiv’s implicit acquiescence to the P’sak (which as a Gadol, he felt needed a Mach’ah).

    #927473
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Even assuming that all army services are non-negotiable, there is still “Sheirut Leumi”. Why can’t the Chareidim come up with a kosher service that doesn’t have the tznius problems with “Sheirut Leumi”? It’s not just a matter of rejecting army duty, the rejected it and refused to propose an alternative.

    #927474
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Or even petition the government not to draft Yeshiva bachurim who have been learning for 10 years? Have they ever even considered those things? No! And why not? I have no idea why not, but it seems to me that they are afraid of change.

    Also, statistics show that the poverty level amongst Chareidim is close to 50 percent, compared to %7 in the rest of the country. Of course the Chareidim use a disproportionate amount of the tax money and contribute a disproportionately low amount.

    #927475
    shein
    Member

    Also, statistics show that the poverty level amongst the destitute is 100 percent, compared to %7 in the rest of the country. Of course the poor use a disproportionate amount of the tax money and contribute a disproportionately low amount.

    We must tax the poor more.

    #927476
    yael.e
    Participant

    mdd: tax credits, child allowance and havtachat hachnasa are for all. its nothing specific to chareidim and is not income dependent. Now, you want to ask if its hashkafically correct to take havtachat hachnasa? Thats a difficult question which I don’t want to get involved in. i will say this, though; I don’t think its prevalent to take it. I personally only know of one family who does take it.

    At least i can see you have some value for talmud torah which unfortunately is glaringly missing from some of the other posters here. Gadol sinas am ha’aretz l’talmidei chachamim – and it shows.

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