February 6, 2013 9:18 am at 9:18 am #927477yael.eParticipant
GAW: So why do you take anythong now?
I think my point should have been clear to you. You are just trying to be inflammatory.
I pay full taxes,bituach leumi, mas briut etc. – should I also not take my D’mei Laydah When I have a baby? Maybe I should insist on paying for my doctors visits as well?
“More so, your “Gedolim” insist on taking the money!!”
Very disrespectful. Do you have different “gedolim”? I’d like to know who they are?February 6, 2013 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #927478zahavasdadParticipant
The Middle class in Israel are paying 50% or more of their incomes in taxes and living off Overdraft, they cannot pay any more. You can only tax somone so much.February 6, 2013 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #927479mddMember
Yael.e, I actually place very high value on Talmud Torah. My only concern is that if the frei indeed support the Chareidi learning to a significant degree, it is Chillul HaShem to insist on staying in learning on their money against their will.
About the sinah of am aratzim. There is indeed such a thing as the Gemorah tells us. I,unfortunately, have seen it in real life. Your remark is off, however, when it comes to the posters here. Some of them might place not enough value on Talmud Torah, but it is not more than that. One can’t go and start up with the Goyim, and when they react, start yelling:”Eisav sone le’Ya’akov…”. In a similar vein, a learning person, a Talmud Chochom can’t act inappropriatly and than start yelling “sinas am’aratzim”.
Btw, while on the subject of sinah, what about the way the E.Y. Chareidim treat other Yidden — Sefardim, Ba’alei Teshuvah, Geirim? I guess it is a topic for a different thread.February 6, 2013 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #927480
“More so, your “Gedolim” insist on taking the money!!”
Very disrespectful. Do you have different “gedolim”? I’d like to know who they are?
Hopefully. As I discussed earlier, any “Gadol” who worships money and is willing to give up on their principles for the sake of money is not a Gadol at all. There are many graduates of JTS who also know how to learn, but that doesn’t make them “Gedolim”. Rabbi Avi Weiss has a large following like a Chassidish Rebbe, but that doesn’t make him a “Gadol” either.
As for a list, we can start with Rabbi Miller ZTL. Rav Chaim Kanievsky in EY as well (he is NOT a Posek (as he admits himself), but is a “Gadol”).February 6, 2013 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #927481
mdd -“About the sinah of am aratzim. There is indeed such a thing as the Gemorah tells us. I,unfortunately, have seen it in real life. Your remark is off, however, when it comes to the posters here.”
Your hypocrisy is astounding. Here it is:
“Yael.e, I actually place very high value on Talmud Torah. My only concern is that if the frei indeed support the Chareidi learning to a significant degree, it is Chillul HaShem to insist on staying in learning on their money against their will.”
How you have the Chutzpa to post “against their will” is beyond me!
You make it sound that the Charedim are the majority in the Knesset. Anything the Charedim get from the Medina is acc. to law. If this was against almost all the Israeli’s will -then the two parties who hate the Charedim the most, i.e. Lapid & Bennett would have gotten more than 31 seats.
I don’t know why the posters think you respect Limud Hatorah. It’s obvious you don’t. You keep screaming Chillul Hashem – you never learnt the meaning. Your posts are a Chillul Hashem, not taking money from a Medina that legally they can accept.February 7, 2013 12:08 am at 12:08 am #927482
I love it, you go around saying that we only take money because the medinah has laws that let us take it. At the same time you say that the medinah is treif and a horrible thing. Then you’re completely ungrateful & complain that the money is not enough to live off of. Then you say that you really want to work but you’re discriminated against. Then you say that anyone who wants to change the laws is just someone who “hates charedim” but you also yell out that it’s “changing the status quo.”
Hello!!! Wake up!!! You can’t go around being greedy and then ungrateful and then accusatory… and then be upset about the person who’s paying the bill wanting to “change the status quo.” Of course, then you realize that you’ve been peeing into the well that you drink from so it’s time to quickly run to the people that you’ve been calling “goyim” and playing the “we’re all religious” card and we should all stand together. This is not a hashkafa, it’s being manipulative and it’s a tired act.February 7, 2013 2:35 am at 2:35 am #927483
Mods – How did you let this post through?????!?! He has a bad word in his Post!February 7, 2013 2:46 am at 2:46 am #927484
RBS.Jew -“I love it, you go around saying that we only take money because the medinah has laws that let us take it. At the same time you say that the medinah is treif and a horrible thing. Then you’re completely ungrateful & complain that the money is not enough to live off of. Then you say that you really want to work but you’re discriminated against. Then you say that anyone who wants to change the laws is just someone who “hates charedim” but you also yell out that it’s “changing the status quo.””
It’s obvious that you never read my posts. You must just come here to spew your hatred. I personally hold you shouldn’t take money from the Medina for schools and you owe them nothing including going to their army. You can be part of Medical insurance because these type of things every country has. Unfortunately they are running the Country right now.
I was defending the Charedim that do take money because right now it’s the law and there is nothing wrong to take it and not do army service. If this law changes then these Charedim won’t be able to say give me money and still I’m not going to the army.
They have every moral right -right now to demand money for their learning Torah because it protects the people of Israel.February 7, 2013 7:23 am at 7:23 am #927485yael.eParticipant
GAW: “Hopefully. As I discussed earlier, any “Gadol” who worships money and is willing to give up on their principles for the sake of money is not a Gadol”
I agree with you on this point. I’m not even sure which gedolim you’re referring to that are compromising? And its not clear what you mean by compromising, either. Please do not specify any names, however – It may be lashon hara.February 7, 2013 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #927486
I agree with you on this point. I’m not even sure which gedolim you’re referring to that are compromising? And its not clear what you mean by compromising, either. Please do not specify any names, however – It may be lashon hara.
I’m not sure how to respond, as I would not name anyone. However, a Gadol is someone who cares about the entity of Klal Yisroel as a whole, and wants to be Mekadesh Shem Shomaiym. Unfortunately, Kiddush Hashem & politics don’t usually mix. In the name of “politics” (meaning you gave us or will give us GELT), Torah principles (such as not promoting LGBT, Shmiras Shabbos for the Klal, Kashrus for the Klal, Yishuv Eretz Yisroel, etc.) are pushed aside so that a specific subgroup of Yidden will have more gelt. That is not what a Gadol of Klal Yisroel does.
C”V, if we are thrown out of EY because of what happens in Tel Aviv (as the Torah promises), it will be because politicians were too busy getting their minor subgroup gelt instead of improving the Klal as a whole (or passing laws to help it along).February 7, 2013 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #927487mddMember
Yael.e, which points of Health’s do you agree with? If the Chareidim till now were able to play games and push laws through that let them take the money despite the widespread resentment, it does not mean it is not Chillul HaShem. If you and Health(!!!) learn about Chillul HaShem, you”ll see that if a Yid, a Talmud Chocham does something which is not assur but might look bad, it is bona-fide Chillul Shem Shomaim!
GAW, it is bizui Talmidei Chachomim to put forth such conjectures. It is one thing to have kashos on the p’sak, but what you did is different.February 7, 2013 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #927488plonis3141Member
RBSJew – what was that and where do you get your info?
If you had read through the posts here, you would see that there are plenty of us (Chareidim) who work for a living, pay taxes, and live peacefully in the medinah with our husbands learning. The only thing I can see that would offend anyone else is the fact that our husbands do not go to the army. (Which I think is a different topic.)
I do not ask for more money. I do not complain about what they give. I do work,I don’t complain about discrimination, and I pay arnona, income tax, mas briut and everything else. Based on the same tax laws as the chilonim.
What do you find so offensive about our behavior?
MDD: Again, the premise that we are staying in learning on “their” dollar is what I am disagreeing with…..My husband is in learning on MY dollar. The objection is to the 750 shekels a month?
GAW: I personally don’t know of any gedolim who are selling their principles in order to keep taking money from the medinah, but maybe you are referring to something I don’t know about?February 7, 2013 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #927489
GAW, it is bizui Talmidei Chachomim to put forth such conjectures. It is one thing to have kashos on the p’sak, but what you did is different.
Is it Bizayon Talmidei Chachomim to put forth the same regarding Rabbi Avi Weiss? How about Rabbi Leib Tropper? Rabbi Louis Jacobs?
Having the title “Rabbi” or “Rebbe” does not shield someone from criticism. Power corrupts. Shochad certainly corrupts.February 7, 2013 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #927490
Health – you are living in a fatasy world that is based on your own magical mathematics. You say “I personally hold you shouldn’t take money from the Medina for schools and you owe them nothing including going to their army.” However, you’re obviously oblivious to the basics of economics and life in a society. You think that the only reason you owe the country that you’re living in something is because you get money for your schools!?!?!? The Torah says that the law of the land (any land) is the law that a Torah observant Jew must follow. The laws of the land of Israel have the same halacha and possibly even more so. This is NOT a time or place where the king is demanding excessive taxes that may allow us to halachically not pay them. Anyone living here (even non-citizens) uses tremendous amounts of resources – healthcare, roads, garbage collection, police, fire, electrical & water infrastructure, airport, defense services, the economy, agriculture, etc, etc, etc. You owe something to the government and people here even if you don’t take money for your schools!
Now, very concerning to me is your claim that “You can be part of Medical insurance because these type of things every country has.” I’m not sure what you’re even referring to but you have certainly justified to yourself the use of a VERY expensive service despite not paying the full bill for it. This country provides a socialized medicine system but that’s NOT the case in most countries at all! I guess some people aren’t aware (Obama supporters sure aren’t) that even socialized medicine has to be paid for. In Israel, there are income taxes that go toward paying for that healthcare – it’s one of the reasons we have higher tax rates than in the US. However, if you aren’t paying full income taxes then you are using very expensive services without paying for it. After a few too many people do that, the system becomes unsustainable and that’s precisely what the current situation is. That’s why there are so many people working to change this situation but the chareidi tzibur just run around saying this is all about “closing yeshivas” and trying to make the chareidim not religious. It’s rediculous and obnoxious to say… the best is when you then call anyone who wants to build a fair and sustainable system “goyim” (all the words of the chareidi parties, NOT mine!)February 7, 2013 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #927493yichusdikParticipant
The ignorance of basic economic and political realities here is truly astounding.
First – I live in a country with socialized medicine. It is paid for not only through basic income taxes but also through a surcharge based on salary. So someone who is deliberately not reaching a threshold for income tax is not paying for their medical coverage. Believe it or not, Israel is not the only place where such imbalances exist, nor the only place where they are remarked upon. The rational argument is that IF a person is incapable of supporting the system, the society has a responsibility to sustain him. But IF a person has the capacity to earn and support the system that funds his medical care, but chooses not to – for whatever reason, then the rest of society will see this as an inequity.
As well, many here have remarked that University students get many of the same subsidies as those learning full time. What they conveniently forget when they make that argument, is that nearly all those in University have completed their military or national service before setting foot in the university or being eligible for subsidies (an exception is made for students in special programs for technical positions in the IDF, where the students go to university first and bring to bear their engineering or other skills when they enter the IDF immediately after graduation. They usually consent to serve an extra year. At Machon Lev, in Yerushalayim, there are a number of students doing this, Learning in the Beis Medrash in the morning and studying engineering in the afternoon/evening, and then entering the IDF. Machon Lev/JCT is a wonderful example, and it also has Chareidi oriented non IDF engineering programs for men and women). Since these students have completed their service, and are then eligible, they wonder why others are eligible without service.
I’ve mentioned before that those things never discussed that enter into the discussion include intangibles, like government subsidies for corporations that employ Chareidim and others in high tech, or in underdeveloped parts of the country. Yes, the government would do it anyways, but the tax breaks or other incentives ultimately cost money that comes from taxpayers. If people are deliberately keeping themselves under the income tax threshhold, they are not carrying a proportionate share of the economic burden.
It goes without saying that legislation enacted more than 60 years ago to address the reality at the time cannot be held up as eternal law. Governments come and go, and their decisions in all democracies change. It is a wonder it lasted this long. Shall postage cost the same now as in 1948 because the government determined it cost 2 agorot at the time? Should malls and markets in Israel not have metal detectors and security guards because they didn’t have them in 1948? The idea is ludicrous, as is the insistence on Ben Gurion’s writ being extended leolom voed.
Finally, I don’t disagree with the concept that Torah learning provides an incalculably valuable service for every resident and citizen of Israel. It makes sense to me. The problem is, I don’t need to be convinced, the electorate does. Israel is a democracy, and in a democracy, you have to convince people to support your position, and vote for it. It is the height of arrogance to assume people will accept your dictate, as if you are a paragon of virtue, probity, and perfection, instead of being, like I am, a Jew who tries to do what Hashem wants and more often than not doesn’t fully succeed. To do this the people of Israel have to be brought to a love of Torah, regardless of whether they are Zionist, anti Zionist, leftist, rightist, centrist, secular traditional, atheist, or anarchist. If you want their vote, you have to do a better job of getting them to love Torah, because right now, its not working. If they don’t love Torah, then you have lost.February 7, 2013 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #927494
plonis3141: Obviously I’m not upset at anyone who actually works, pays FULL taxes, pays FULL arnona, pays bituach leumi & mas briut, doesn’t complain about being discriminated against just because someone asks for everyone to work & pay their own way, etc. Look, I know that it’s not easy to see that someone who is different than you and doesn’t agree with a hashkafa that you may associate with is actually not out to get you. I don’t hate chareidim at all despite the attacks I’ve received about that here. It’s not chareidim that I really disagree with, it’s the leadership of the chareidi parties and the others that help set the chareidi culture that I disagree with. I feel that they’re creating and still pushing an unfair and unsustainable system. Chareidi people who work and pay fairly are in my book the same as anyone else here.
The army thing is an important topic that can’t be ignored either. I’ve said several times that the chareidi movement as a whole (again, the movement and the leadership, not necessarily the individual family) could have done much better by working with the soldiers as opposed to turning their backs on them (at best) or even cursing them (at worst). Make the soldiers feel that their learning is actually part of the betterment of the nation and for our defense. Try setting up chavruta programs with soldiers, set up Shabbos hospitality for soldiers who are not as frum as you, hold special prayer and learning sessions for the safety of the soldiers and security personnel. I don’t mean just hold a tehillim session for your own safety when the missiles start flying but truly daven & learn for the safety of the soldiers that are your counterparts – just like they did in the time of the Tanach. By now, it’s too late and the non-chareidim who have been serving in the army or sheirut leumi are upset and feel used. This was a huge loss for the pro-Torah cause in this country and a missed opportunity for the chareidi movement to improve the religious situation here.
yichusdik – you said everything so well – and you have a way of saying it that hopefully won’t be taken as inflammatory the way my words are sometimes.February 7, 2013 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #927495plonis3141Member
rbsjew – i appreciate your comments and the respectful tone. BTW, I DO pay full arnona and all of my other taxes. (I do get more points for having more kids, but I don’t think that’s the main issue here….)
I think that the reason I get upset is because of the way you, and others, seem to think that the people like me are so few and far between, when the reality I see is different.
From my vantage point, as a chareidi woman in a chareidi community, I see that a very large majority of chareidi women work, and work hard to support their families. I am not saying it does not happen that people rely on avtachat hachnasah, etc., but I do think it happens less than you think.
I think the PR that the chareidim have to the country as a whole is terrible, and that people see chareidim much in the way you do, when, it is not the reality for most. The secular then resent the chareidim and are spewing hate, which makes the chareidim feel frightened and intimidated.
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