Three Oaths Essay by Daniel Pinner

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  • #2468962
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    The Three Oaths Dilemma Dividing Jewish Zionists from Anti-Zionists
    Are the Three Oaths halakhah (mandated Jewish law) in practice today?
    2018 June 13 on www (dot) IsraelNationalNews (dot) com

    __________________________________________
    The Talmud cites three oaths which G-d administered:

    “One oath was that Israel would not make Aliyah ‘as a wall’;
    and one oath was that G-d adjured Israel not to rebel against the nations;
    and one oath was that G-d adjured the nations not to persecute Israel too much” (Ketuvot 111A).
    Of these three oaths, therefore, two apply to Israel and one to the other nations.

    __________________________________________
    These Three Oaths are the basis for the ostensibly religious Jewish opposition to Zionism:
    the very essence of Zionism was that Jews from the world over return to Israel,
    ascending to the Land of Israel “as a wall”, together, united, using military force when necessary.

    __________________________________________
    This compels the question:

    Does Zionism indeed violate G-d’s will?
    Do these Three Oaths constitute halakhah (Jewish religious law) in practice?

    __________________________________________
    We begin by noting that it was Rabbi Zeira who cited the Three Oaths,
    quoting Rabbi Yossi BeRebbi Chanina.
    And both Rabbi Zeira and Rabbi Yossi BeRebbi Chanina eventually made Aliyah! 

    __________________________________________
    (1) This passage is clearly aggadah (homiletic), and as a general rule
    we do NOT derive practical halakhah from homiletic passages in the Talmud.

    The Talmud is, after all, full of homilies, aphorisms, and adages,
    expositions and commentaries on the Bible, historical anecdotes,
    parables, advice, and so forth – which do not constitute practical halakhah.

    __________________________________________
    (2) And even in halakhic discourses in the Talmud, the majority of statements
    do not constitute practical halakhah; after all, the Talmud
    almost invariably cites several opinions on every halakhic subject,
    only one of which can be accepted as practical halakhah.

    So how can we know halakhah in practice?

    How can we decide which Talmudic statements constitute practical halakhah and which don’t?

    For this, we have centuries of halakhic literature:

    __________________________________________
    (3) The earliest halakhic codifier was Rabbi Yitzchak Alfassi (1013-1103 [CE]),
    known by his acronym the Rif. (The name Alfassi means Fezite, from Fez in Morocco.)

    The Rif compiled the Sefer ha-Halakhot (The Book of Halakhot),
    the first-ever compendium of Jewish law.

    The Rif completely ignores the Three Oaths:
    so far as he is concerned, they DO NOT constitute practical halakhah.

    __________________________________________
    (4) A century later came Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon (1135-1204 [CE]),
    known by his acronym Rambam (in the secular world usually called Maimonides).

    The Rambam wrote the Mishneh Torah, a comprehensive compendium
    of halakhah in 14 volumes, more scientifically-organised than
    the Sefer ha-Halakhot. (The Sefer ha-Halakhot  generally follows
    the order in the Talmud, the Mishneh Torah is organised subject-by subject).

    The Mishneh Torah contains every halakhah, including those which
    did not apply in the Rambam’s times and are still do not apply,
    such as laws of how to construct the Holy Temple and laws of sacrifices.

    The Mishneh Torah begins with the halakhic obligation to know
    that G-d exists (interesting point, incidentally – according to the Rambam
    we must know that G-d exists, not just believe that He exists),
    and concludes with Laws of Kings.

    In this final section, Laws of Kings and their Wars (to give its full title),
    the Rambam lays forth all the laws of how a Jewish state is to be run,
    who can be king of a Jewish state, what the limits of the king’s authority are,
    how the Jewish State is to be established, and so forth.

    Nowhere at all does the Rambam limit a Jewish State to the times of the messiah,
    or cite the Three Oaths as practical halakhah.

    __________________________________________
    (5) Just about contemporaneous with the Ramban
    was Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman (1194-1270 [CE]),
    known by his acronym Ramban (in the secular world usually called Nachmanides).

    The Ramban wrote glosses on the Mishneh Torah, including an entire section
    of halakhot which, he claimed, the Rambam had forgotten or omitted.

    Not only does the Ramban NOT feature the Three Oaths as practical halakhah
    – he regards conquering the Land of Israel as a positive Commandment for all generations:

    “You will inherit the Land [of Israel] and will dwell in it,
    because to you I have given the Land to inherit”
    says the Torah (Numbers [Bamidbar] 33:53), on which the Ramban comments:

    “In my opinion this is a positive Commandment:
    He hereby commanded them to dwell in the Land and to inherit it,
    because He gave it to them and they are not to spurn Hashem’s Heritage…
    and our Rabbis have expounded greatly upon the Mitzvah
    of dwelling in the Land of Israel [Ketuvot 110B], that it is forbidden to leave it…”.

    Not only does the Ramban NOT bring the Three Oaths as practical halakhah;
    not only does he regard conquering the Land of Israel to be a positive Commandment
    – he even references the self-same Talmudic passage in which the Three Oaths appear,
    solely in order to mention the halakhic obligation to live in Israel and to inherit the Land.

    And to clarify this, the Ramban identifies two separate mitzvot: dwelling in the Land
    (which Mitzvah devolves upon the individual), and inheriting the Land,
    which means conquering it and ruling it (which Mitzvah devolves upon the collective).
    The individual Jew who lives in Israel has fulfilled the first mitzvah but not the second.
    And according to the Ramban, the mitzvah of inheriting the Land,
    conquering it and ruling it, applies throughout the generations,
    in direct contravention of the Three Oaths.

    So clearly, the Ramban, like his predecessors,
    does NOT hold that the Three Oaths constitute practical halakhah.

    __________________________________________
    (6) A generation after the Ramban came Rabbi Asher ben Yechiel (1240-1327 [CE]),
    known by his acronym the Rosh (short for Rabbeinu Asher, “our Rabbi, Asher”).

    The Rosh’s commentary appears at the back of most editions of the Talmud;
    it takes the form of a précis of halakhic discourses:

    typically, the Rosh condenses a discussion which might extend over a few pages
    down to one paragraph, concluding with a halakhic decision –
    “and the halakhah in practice is such-and-such”.

    The Rosh, like all his predecessors, ignores the Three Oaths.
    For him, too, they appear NOT to constitute practical halakhah.

    __________________________________________
    (7) The next great Talmudic commentator and halakhic authority was
    Rabbi Nissim of Gerona (1320-1376 [CE]), known by his acronym the Ran
    (short for Rabbeinu Nissim, “our Rabbi, Nissim”),
    one of the last of the great Spanish Talmudic scholars.

    The Ran wrote a commentary on the Rif’s Sefer ha-halakhot,
    and another commentary on the Talmud, both of which are accepted
    as authoritative halakhic works. His commentary on the Talmud appears
    in almost all printed editions of the Talmud, at the bottom of the page beneath the text;
    its purpose is to teach practical halakhah,
    generally ignoring purely theoretical or homiletic concepts.

    The Ran, like all his predecessors, ignores the Three Oaths.
    For him, too, they DO NOT appear to constitute practical halakhah.

    __________________________________________
    (8) And now we come to one of the most important and influential
    halakhic works of all, the Shulchan Aruch, written by Rabbi Yosef Karo
    (1488-1575 [CE]). Rabbi Yosef Karo, often known simply as “ha-Mechabber”
    (“the Author”), compiled the Shulchan Aruch in Tzfat (Safed), Israel.

    The Shulchan Aruch, meaning the “Prepared Table”, because it is like a table
    on which has been prepared and is ready for all who want, is the last of
    the great halakhic works, and today, half a millennium on,
    it is still the most frequently-cited halakhic work.

    The Shulchan Aruch is an abridgement of Rabbi Yosef Karo’s earlier work,
    the Beit Yosef (“House of Joseph”). Rabbi Karo had achieved universal renown
    for his unrivaled learning, hence his work achieved instant acceptance throughout the Torah world.

    Unlike the Mishneh Torah, the Shulchan Aruch deals only with those halakhot
    which are applicable in our days. Rabbi Karo was writing in Israel
    (at the time under Turkish Ottoman occupation) –
    and he, too, like all his predecessors, ignores the Three Oaths.

    For him, too, they DO NOT appear to constitute practical halakhah.

    __________________________________________
    (9) Rabbi Yosef Karo, a product of Spain, was of course Sefaradi,
    and his halakhic rulings reflected the Sefaradi tradition.

    And so, Rabbi Karo’s Polish contemporary, Rabbi Moshe Isserles
    (1525-1572 [CE]) wrote glosses on the Shulchan Aruch,
    called the Mappa (the “Tablecloth”, because it “covers” the “Prepared Table”)
    whenever the Ashkenazi tradition diverged from the Sefaradi tradition.

    Rabbi Moshe Isserles, known by his acronym the Rama,
    had apparently originally intended to write an independent halakhic work;
    however, he quickly realised that would be irrelevant,
    since the differences would be minuscule.
    The Rama’s glosses are, therefore, inserted into the text of the Shulchan Aruch;
    in almost all editions, they are set off by being printed in Rashi script,
    as opposed to the square letters of the Shulchan Aruch itself.

    Rabbi Moshe Isserles, too, ignores the Three Oaths.

    __________________________________________
    (10) Then in 1864 [CE], Rabbi Shlomo Ganzfried published his halakhic work
    the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (the Abbreviated Shulchan Aruch) in Hungary.

    Intended for the layman, the Kitzur (as it is popularly known) contains only
    such halakhot as a Jew needs in his day-to-day life,
    leaving out such halakhot as need specialist knowledge.
    (It explains, for example, how to affix a Mezuzah to the door-post,
    but not how to write the Mezuzah: writing is the province of a trained Scribe.)

    Now it is significant that Rabbi Ganzfried DID NOT MENTION the Three Oaths
    in his halakhic work, because Zionism was already a significant force among
    the Jews of Hungary (and indeed throughout Europe) by the 1860’s,
    so had he believed that the Three Oaths constitute practical halakhah,
    he would surely have included them.

    __________________________________________
    (11) And a generation later, Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan,
    popularly known as the Chafetz Chaim, published the Mishnah Berurah,
    a commentary and expansion to the first section of the Shulchan Aruch,
    in 1904 [CE]; the Chafetz Chaim addended a detailed series of glosses
    to the Mishnah Berurah, the Be’ur halakhah, to clarify and expand upon his original work.

    Now it is even more significant that the Chafetz Chaim nowhere mentions
    The Three Oaths. Not just because by 1904 [CE] Zionism was a major force among Jewry,
    not just because Jews were already streaming into the Land of Israel,
    not just because the Zionist movement was already lobbying governments
    the world over from Turkey to Britain to Germany to Austria-Hungary to the USA to France,
    but because the Chafetz Chaim was decidedly anti-Zionist.

    In the great debates which threatened to split Jewry,
    the two greatest protagonists were Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak ha-Cohen Kook
    (in favor of Zionism), and the Chafetz Chaim (against Zionism).

    When even the great halakhic codifier the Chafetz Chaim,
    with his uncompromisingly anti-Zionist ideology,
    does not see fit to include the Three Oaths in a halakhic work,
    it becomes clear that they are not intended as practical halakhah:
    even the great proponent of anti-Zionism did not claim
    that the Three Oaths are halakhically binding!

    __________________________________________
    (12) Let us now put the Three Oaths into context.

    In a long discussion, stretching over two pages, the Talmud cites
    any number of praises of the Land of Israel. A few at random:

    “A man may compel all the members of his household
    to go up to the Land of Israel with him, but he may not compel
    anyone to leave the Land of Israel with him” (Ketuvot 110B).

    “The Rabbis taught: A Jew must always live in the Land of Israel,
    even in a city whose majority are idolaters, and lot live outside
    of the Land of Israel, even in a city whose majority are Jews;
    because everyone who lives in the Land of Israel is like one who has a G-d,
    and everyone who lives outside of the Land of Israel is like one who has no G-d” (Ketuvot 110B).

    “Everyone who lives outside the Land of Israel is as though he worships idols” (Ketuvot 110B).

    “Said Rabbi Elazar: Everyone who dwells in the Land of Israel lives without sin…
    The dead outside of the Land of Israel will not be resurrected, as it says
    ‘I will give glory in the Land of Life’ (Ezekiel 26:20) – in the Land wherein
    My desire is the dead will live again, in lands where My desire is absent,
    the dead will not live again” (Ketuvot 111A).

    In the midst of all these appear The Three Oaths.
    Now the question arises: How can we decide which Talmudic statements
    constitute practical halakhah and which are purely homiletic?

    __________________________________________
    (13) The simple answer lies in the page-layout of the Talmud.

    The Talmud has been called the first-ever hypertext due to its
    comprehensive cross-referencing. At the top outer margin
    of every page of the Talmud appears Ein Mishpat – Ner Mitzvah,
    which cross-references every Talmudic source
    which appears in the major halakhic works.

    And the sole halakhic cross-references in the entire passage
    in which the Three Oaths are to the Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings 5:9, 11, and 12:

    “It is always forbidden to leave the Land of Israel, except to study Torah,
    to marry a woman, or to save [himself or a fellow-Jew] from heathens,
    and then to return to Israel; or else for business.
    But it is forbidden [for a Jew] to live permanently outside of Israel,
    unless there is severe famine there…
    Everyone who dwells in the Land of Israel – his sins are forgiven…
    even if he walked just four cubits there he merits the World to Come…
    A Jew must always live in the Land of Israel, even in a city whose majority are idolaters,
    and not live outside of Israel, even in a city whose majority are Jews,
    because anyone who leaves Israel is akin to one who worships idols…”.

    So the sole halakhic cross-references, far from accepting
    The Three Oaths as practical halakhah, enjoin every Jew to live in Israel.

    __________________________________________
    (14) And now, having analyzed the halakhah,
    we now turn to the practical application in history.

    The fact is that when the Seleucid Empire occupied Israel,
    the Maccabees mounted a military insurrection, using military force
    to liberate the Land of Israel, rebelling against
    the nations of the world in the most violent way possible.

    And they won, and the Sages of the generation instituted an
    annual Festival called Channukah to celebrate their military victory.

    __________________________________________
    (15) Three hundred years later, when the Roman Empire occupied Israel,
    Shimon Bar-Kochba  mounted a military insurrection,
    using military force to liberate the Land of Israel,
    rebelling against the nations of the world in the most violent way possible.

    And the spiritual leader of the Bar-Kochba Revolt was Rabbi Akiva,
    one of the greatest Rabbis of all time.
    As an indication of how great a master he was, there is a principle
    in the Talmud that in any halakhic debate between Rabbi Akiva
    and any other rabbi, the halakhah in practice invariably follows Rabbi Akiva’s opinion.
    No other single master in the entire Talmud can over-rule Rabbi Akiva.

    Clearly, Rabbi Akiva, the greatest master of them all,
    did not believe that The Three Oaths constituted halakhah in practice.

    __________________________________________
    (16) I conclude with one of our greatest philosophers ever,
    Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Levi, a product of the Golden Age of Muslim Spain.
    For 20 years, from 1120 [CE] to 1140 [CE], he worked on his magnum opus, The Kuzari.

    The Kuzari is a magnificent and eminently readable work of Jewish philosophy,
    presented in the form of a dialogue between the King of the Khazars
    and an unnamed rabbi. The King of the Khazars was a genuine historical figure
    of whom little is known, beyond his name, Bulan, and the legend that
    he and many of the Khazar aristocracy converted to Judaism around the year 700 [CE].

    In the Kuzari, Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Levi presents his entire philosophy of Judaism,
    using the King of the Khazars as a foil. This purported debate is a far more dramatic
    and vivid and dynamic work than any academic work of philosophy
    (even more than the Rambam’s Guide for the Perplexed).

    In the second essay, Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Levi has the rabbi recount
    the praises of the Land of Israel and tell of our obligation to live therein.
    And then the words he puts in the Kings mouth are quite harsh:

    “In this case, you fail in your duty to the Torah!
    You have not attempted to make your lives in the Land of Israel, yet you pray,
    ‘Have mercy on Zion, because it is the House of our Life’…
    I see that all your bowing and prostrating towards the Land of Israel
    is mere sycophancy and habit which you do without thinking…” (Kuzari 2:23).

    Of all the King’s arguments throughout the Kuzari,
    this is the sole one to which the Rabbi has no response:

    “You have shamed me, King of Khazaria.
    And this is the sin which prevented us from the perfection which
    G-d had ordained for us in the Second Holy Temple…
    G-d was ready to dwell therein as he had in the First Temple,
    if only all [the Jews] would have agreed to return will willing soul –
    but only a few returned…
    Indeed our prayers ‘Bow to His Holy Mountain’ (Psalms 99:9)…
    and ‘Blessed are You, Who returns His Divine Presence to Zion’
    as merely like the twittering of starlings…
    It is indeed as you said, O King of Khazaria” (Kuzari 2:25).

    If Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Levi had believed that the Three Oaths
    constitute halakhah in practice, then he would have put entirely
    different words into the Rabbi’s mouth.
    He could so easily have justified abandoning the Land of Israel
    by invoking the Three Oaths –
    “We would love to return to Israel, but G-d has forbidden us to”.

    But Rabbi Yehudah Ha-Levi did not offer this answer.
    Instead, he confessed that our failure to return to our Land is precisely that – a failure.

    __________________________________________
    Because The Three Oaths are NOT, and NEVER were, halakhah in practice.

    ***** END OF ARTICLE *****

    __________________________________________

    Rabbi Moshe Sherer and the modern State of Israel

    Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz vs Satmar Rebbe

    Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky and the modern State of Israel

    Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky and the modern State of Israel

    Refuting the Three Oaths [Gimel Shevuot]

    Three Oaths essay from Rabbi Avraham Rivlin of Kerem B’Yavneh

    #2469351
    HaKatan
    Participant

    SQUARE_ROOT:
    More Zionist spam.
    The most pathetic part of this is that the original author could have opened a VaYoel Moshe and would have seen that his “questions” are not questions.

    First of all, the objections to Zionism are far greater than “only” the Oaths, deadly serious as those oaths were throughout history.
    Zionism is diametrically opposed to Judaism and is its greatest enemy by far. Therefore, of course it violates G-d’s will. Zionism is all about turning Jews and Judaism into Nationalists Zionists and Zionism. Obviously, that is a severe violation of G-d’s will.

    As the Brisker Rav noted, the “State” the Zionists managed to achieve was the greatest triumph of the Satan since the golden calf idol. Both that idol and this idol are obviously against G-d’s will.

    We certainly do derive practical halacha from aggadita unless that would go against halachos elsewhere. And even if we didn’t, we still understand from there G-d’s will. That’s in general.

    But, here, specifically, we have numerous examples throughout history of mass murder that occurred, which the great Torah sages of the time (or later) indicated were due to violating the oaths, including Shevet Ephraim leaving Egypt early and the Ben Koziva rebellion. The Rambam himself, quite the “halachist” invokes the oaths in Iggeres Teiman. So, the oaths clearly are halachically in force, as that was the reason given for G-d having punished those Jews at those times and a warning to Jews at other times to not rebel due to those and not to arise en masse to E”Y due to those oaths.

    Regarding the oaths not appearing in various halachic works, that is an academic question, not a serious question, but that would likely be because they aren’t applicable to day-to-day life like, say praying and kashrus. This involves things like mass “aliyah” and fighting wars against nations. These are not your typical day-to-day Jewish issues, at least not until the Zionists came and grossly violated the entire Torah (not “just” the Oaths) as per the Brisker Rav.

    #2469370
    RightJew
    Participant

    SQUARE_ROOT:

    You make great points above.

    One other point that must be made – even IF the Three Oaths are halacha, they were never violated by the creation of the State of Israel.

    The UN General Assembly voted by a majority vote in 1947 to allow a Jewish state in part of Eretz Yisrael.

    The Jewish Leadership accepted the UN Plan.

    President Trump placed the US Embassy in Jerusalem.

    Thus it seems that the only Jews who are now violating the “Three Oaths” are Satmar and N.K.

    #2469381
    RightJew
    Participant

    SQUARE_ROOT:

    You make great points above.

    One other point that must be made – even IF the Three Oaths are halacha, they were never violated by the creation of the State of Israel.

    The UN General Assembly voted by a majority vote in 1947 to allow a Jewish state in part of Eretz Yisrael.

    The Jewish Leadership accepted the UN Plan.

    President Trump placed the US Embassy in Jerusalem.

    Thus it seems that the only Jews who are now violating the “Three Oaths” are Satmar and N.K. who refuse to recognize the State of Israel.

    #2469391
    yankel berel
    Participant

    most of square’s comments above have merit …

    but the heading does not

    there are many non zionists who do not hold the oaths as halachically applicable

    and nevertheless are not zionists

    for many good and valid reasons
    .
    .

    #2469403

    this looks like a good analysis, focusing not on some individual writings, but on a big picture whether the issue is discussed in major halachik sources.

    The only caveat is that many issues looked of remote interest during middle ages and up to modern times. Some might still write about halochos of final redemption for which there was always Jewish earning, but the process how we will get there was not of urgent need to codify.

    #2469422
    wojwoj
    Participant

    The sad fact remains that those that live outside of the land and those who preach against it will not be redeemed in the geula. All these anti-Zionists or haters of others Jews – however you want to view it – have separated themselves from the Jewish people. Highly unlikely they will see the geula.

    #2469573
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    Some major Rabbis held that the Three Oaths are NOT in force anymore,
    including: Rabbi Chaim Vital, Rabbi Meir Simcha of Dvinsk, and Rabbi Shlomo Kluger.

    Even if they were in force, in 1948 CE, there were many Rabbis who held
    that they were not violated, because the League of Nations and
    the United Nations Organization both voted to establish a Jewish state,
    in 1920 CE and 1948 CE, so the State of Israel was NOT established by force.

    Also, the oath not to go to Eretz Yisrael in large numbers requires
    more than half the Jews in the world —- this is the opinion of
    the Shittah Mekubetzes, the Maharal, and Rabbi Yonasan Eybshitz.

    The Torah Temimah held that it only refers to when people
    are forced to move to Eretz Yisrael, not when they do so voluntarily.

    So do not falsely claim that ALL Rabbis held that they are in effect,
    or that Israel violated them.

    PS: Rabbi Chaim Vital says clearly in Shaar Hakdamos that
    The Three Oaths only applied for 1,000 years.

    #2469574
    SR
    Participant

    Putting aside the Halachik questions, the fact is that the Three Oaths have been satisfied.

    Emigration to Eretz Yisroel was never like a “wall.” It was slow. This was the first Oath. The second Oath has been satisfied because, ironically, Israel was created by a vote of the United Nations, showing the consent of the nations. Finally, as far as the third Oath is concerned, the Holocaust was certainly a case of the ultimate oppression.

    #2469575
    SQUARE_ROOT
    Participant

    Rabbi Meir Simchah of Dvinsk, the Meshech Chochmah,
    said that The Three Oaths no longer apply because
    the nations gave us permission to return to Eretz Yisrael
    in The San Remo Conference of 25 April 1920 of The Common Era.

    #2469577
    RightJew
    Participant

    SQUARE_ROOT:

    You make great points above.

    One other point that must be made – even IF the Three Oaths are halacha, they were never violated by the creation of the State of Israel.

    Satmar/N.K. utilizes historical revisionism to claim that the Three Oaths were violated.

    The UN General Assembly voted by a majority vote in 1947 to allow a Jewish state in part of Eretz Yisrael.

    The Jewish Leadership accepted the UN Plan.

    President Trump placed the US Embassy in Jerusalem.

    Thus it seems that the only Jews who are now violating the “Three Oaths” are Satmar and N.K. who refuse to recognize the State of Israel.

    #2469723
    HaKatan
    Participant

    SQUARE_ROOT:
    Your reply is also Zionist spam.
    No major rabbis held that the oaths were no longer in force (though you admit that they were in force before that, contrary to your original post spam).
    Cite those original words. There is nothing there.

    Regarding Rav Meir Simcha, he likely never actually stated that, as that appeared only in a “Religious Zionist” publication. But even if he did actually state that, that would mean only that peaceful and non-political ascent at that time would not violate the very much in force oath of rebelling against the nations. It would not at all permit a political state nor would it permit ascent en masse.

    It’s also imply idiotic to state:
    “..the United Nations Organization both voted to establish a Jewish state, in 1920 CE and 1948 CE, so the State of Israel was NOT established by force.”
    The simple facts are that the Zionist “State” sure was established by force – lots of force, in fact. The Zionists fought a war of “independence” in 1948, and both fought and terrorized both the British and the Arabs before that. That was not what the League of Nations had stated should happen, of course, but it’s anyways irrelevant because the use of force is forbidden (even according to Rabbi AY Kook) regardless of what the LON/UN/whomever stated.

    Stop spamming these boards.

    #2469725
    HaKatan
    Participant

    “RightJew”
    His points are not “great”; they are nonsense, as mentioned above.

    And yours is too. Of course, the creation of the “State” severely violated the oaths as mentioned above. That same UN told the Zionists that they were going to start a new mandate in 1948 but the Zionists said no and declared “independence” instead. As well, to actually achieve that “State”, the Zionists needed to fight an actual war (and war and terror before 1948), as mentioned, and as every Zionist knows very well.

    #2469736
    ZSK
    Participant

    Why are we starting yet another thread about this subject?

    To everyone here: You’re not going to be able to talk any sense into HaKatan and his ilk.

    It’s best we just let these threads die.

    #2469749
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Square Root said:

    Just because someone is married, that does not prove that he or she is “an expert”.

    There are many people with below-average personalities who got married because they are tall or rich or beautiful; and there are many people with above-average personalities who are not married because they are short or poor or ugly.

    There are many people with below-average intelligence who got married because they are tall or rich or beautiful; and there are many people with above-average intelligence who are not married because they are short or poor or ugly.

    Also, there are many people who are married now, but will be divorced in the future.
    Are people who are married now, but will be divorced in the future “expert”, because they are married now?

    You seem to not understand that if our personal circumstances were just a little different, many people who are married now would not be married, and many people who are not married now would be married now.

    __________________________________________
    MY RESPONSE:

    Chananya Weissman moved to Israel and he is still not married

    #2469768
    pure yiddishkeit
    Participant

    @RightJew, @squareroot, @wojwoj, and any other misinformed or worse commentor, to you I say GOOD MORNING!!
    this recycled twisted zionist spam FOLDER OF MADE UP NONSENSE is known to anyone who’s ever given more than 5 mins of their life to the subject of zionism.
    bit by bit:

    1) The Rav Chaim Vital you quote is clearly and simply answered by the Satmar Rav Ztzk”l in Vayoel Moshe in the mid kuf simanim from what I remember, in which he clearly proves that Rav Chaim Vital actually says the exact opposite, quoting him word by word verbatim, (unlike this mythical idea’s source, which is a early generation zionist mizrachi or worse rabbi who was completely ignored, until some yeshiva bachur “looking for the truth” found his junk and decided it was the truth ch”v).

    2) Interesting thing is, in your opening article for this “dialogue” you quote nothing but zionist jargon (that includes old time zionist misinterpretations), sometimes quoting long disproven distortions from people who never dared to state the things these sources unashamedly state.

    3) One of the biggest lies, is that the Issur of Aliyah Bechoma was not violated. Anyone who knows the first thing about zionist history will know about the lechi and the like, all of whom engaged in terror no different than Hamas and other terrosrist organisations (they just didn’t have the kind of funding and help that these savages do, but they still murdered jews and non jews alike). And if you tell me that there was no government at the time (when there was there was the Bitish mandate which constitutes as the running government UNTIL etc), well nowhere will you find the idea that this issur is only against a controlling force in the makeup of a government etc. coming en-masse to overtake a land, EVEN IF IT WAS UNINHABITED, is still assur, as the issur is on the jews to do the act not for it top happen to someone. Aliyah Bechoma beens gowing up in large numbers/armed depending on the pshat understod (most hold that both are halacha).

    4) The debate regarding the halachiq status of agadtah IN OF ITSELF is both irrelevant and wrong to be “DECIDED” (not discussed rather decided) on this platform, as 1. it is for Rabbanim, Dayanim and Poskim to dictate the halachaq status of a whole contingent of the Torah, and 2. because whe agadtah’s that some like to use to twist to fit their zionist idealogies, suddenly they remember agadta’s halachiq status…. hhhmmm….

    5) All the above besides the fact that up until the 18-hundreds, it was wholly and unequivocally accepted as halacha, throughout history up until the zionist bandits turned up. Why then was it not discussed as much as other topics in halacha? because of the above, because it was so simple and basic in everyones mind that it was assur and that’s it, is the reason why it wasn’t discussed that much, proof? Because where it was discussed it is very clear that it is assur including the ones that are “quoted” by zionists in their misinterpritations, like the Rav Chaim Vital we mentioned above, which people quote as to say that Rav Chaim Vital “says” that the oaths are only kayam for 1000 years (ch”v), which is complete utter rubbish, open the Rav Chaim Vital you are quoting and read what he says before you quote zionist newspaper junk.

    6) Besides all of this, even if you want to say that the sky’s pink and not blue, one thing you can’t ignore is that the punishment that the gemara states for being over on the oaths has unfortunately occurred, more than once, even I’d say…

    7) The lies go on and on, and simply because there is no limit to sheker because it is a thing which can be made up again and again I don’t answer everything here, but if anyone has got sincere questions or queries I’d be more than happy to help[, but let’s just remember that this isn’t a kollel, just the coffee room……

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