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QUESTION:
What did Rabbi Moshe Sherer ZTL ZYA say about the modern State of Israel?
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ANSWER:Rabbi Moshe Sherer ZTL ZYA said these statements about the modern State of Israel:
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from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 13, page 321:“He [Rabbi Moshe Sherer] assured [Prime Minister] Rabin…
that he could always count on Agudath Israel of America
to be strongly supportive of Israel’s security needs.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
This is the 1st quote of 4, which proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer
was deeply committed to Israel’s security, even though Israel
was a Secular Zionist state with Secular Zionist leaders!
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from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 15, page 356:“Rabbi [Moshe] Sherer responded at length.
He pointed out that the opposition to religious umbrella groups
did not preclude Jews joining together on issues as
Israel’s security or combating anti-Semitism.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
This is the 2nd quote which proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer
was deeply committed to Israel’s security, even though Israel
was a Secular Zionist state with Secular Zionist leaders!
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from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 545:“Rabbi [Moshe] Sherer’s summary of a confidential
June 17, 1970 [CE] meeting with Israel’s
Ambassador to Washington Yitzchak Rabin
reflects his lifelong approach to Israel’s security needs.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
This is the 3rd quote which proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer
was deeply committed to Israel’s security, even though Israel
was a Secular Zionist state with Secular Zionist leaders!
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from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 546:The offer of political support Rabbi Sherer made
to Yitzchak Rabin was one he would repeat
on many occasions to Israeli leaders.In a 1981 [CE] letter to Israeli Ambassador Ephraim Efron,
for instance, he described Agudath Israel’s grassroots
constituency as a “reservoir of manpower which is
totally committed to the safety and security of Israel.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
This is the 4th quote which proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer
was deeply committed to Israel’s security, even though Israel
was a Secular Zionist state with Secular Zionist leaders!
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from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 547:During the 1991 [CE] Gulf War, Rabbi [Moshe] Sherer
spoke on the phone to [Mr. Yisrael] Katsover
[a longtime military reporter] almost every day:“He [Rabbi Moshe Sherer] didn’t sleep.
Every missile that fell [on Israel] was a cut in his own skin.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
At that time, Israel was a Secular Zionist state with
a Secular Zionist majority and Secular Zionist leaders!
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from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 547:In a fascinating letter to Rabbi Menachem Porush,
written half a year after Israel’s dramatic victory
in the Six-Day War [in year 1967 CE], Rabbi Sherer
agreed “that what transpired were great miracles.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
This short quote proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer
disagreed with those who said that Israel’s dramatic victory
in the Six-Day War resulted from the sitra achra (satanic forces).Rabbi Menachem Porush was a member of Knesset for Agudath Israel
between 1959 and 1975 CE, and again from 1977 until 1994 CE.
The Jewish Press published Rabbi Porush’s articles hundreds of times.
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from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 547:“Such a committee of investigation would have served
as a ploy to unseat Prime Minister Menachem Begin,
for whom both the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah
of America and that of Eretz Yisrael had great respect.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
This short quote proves that the Gedolim had
“great respect” for Israel’s Prime Minister: Mr. Menachem Begin,
even though Menachem Begin was the leader of a Secular Zionist state!
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from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 547, footnote 9:When Rabbi Porush conveyed these sentiments to Rabbi Shach,
the latter responded, “We must pray for the health of
[Prime Minister Menachem] Begin. Please phone [Menachem]
Begin immediately and tell him that I pray for him constantly.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
This short quote proves that Rabbi Shach ZTL ZYA prayed for
Israel’s Prime Minister: Mr. Menachem Begin, “constantly”,
even though Menachem Begin was the leader of a secular Zionist state!
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from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 549:Rabbi Sherer’s constant concern with the physical
well-being and safety of the Jews of Eretz Yisrael
was a direct outgrowth of everything he had learned
from Rabbi Aharon Kotler during the wartime rescue work.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
Rabbi Sherer was constantly concerned with
the safety of the Jews of Eretz Yisrael,
even though most of them were secular, at that time.
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from from the ArtScroll History Series biography
of Rabbi Moshe Sherer, chapter 22, page 552:“…secular Israeli officials viewed Rabbi Sherer
one of the major American Jewish leaders,
and highly valued his eagerness to assist Israel…”PERSONAL COMMENT:
This short quote proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer was
EAGER to assist Israel, even though Israel was a
Secular Zionist state with Secular Zionist leaders!
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SOURCE: “Rabbi Sherer: the paramount Torah spokesman of our era”
by Yonasan Rosenblum, Mesorah Publications, Brooklyn, NY, year 2010 CE,
ISBN-10: 1422609448 & ISBN-13: 978-1422609446
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NOTE: This book was published with a Foreword by Rabbi Shimshon Sherer.NOTE: Rabbi Nosson Scherman and Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz
of ArtScroll were very close to Rabbi Moshe Sherer for decades.NOTE: Rabbi Moshe Sherer ZTL ZYA lived from 1921 CE to 1998 CE.
NOTE: Please feel free to copy my quotes to your computer, for future reference.
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“Throughout his career Rabbi [Moshe] Sherer strongly
supported the State of Israel and advocated on its behalf.”SOURCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Sherer
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FULL DISCLOSURE:Rabbi Moshe Sherer was a life-long opponent of Zionism.
Yet even as a life-long anti-Zionist, he ALWAYS
advocated for the security of the State of Israel,
and NEVER said that the State of Israel should be dismantled.When the United Nations Organization proclaimed [falsely] that:
“Zionism is Racism”, Rabbi Moshe Sherer correctly interpreted
that false proclamation as an attack against ALL JEWS.
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PERSONAL COMMENTS:[1] Rabbi Moshe Sherer never said that the State of Israel should be dismantled.
[2] Rabbi Moshe Sherer never said that Religious Zionists were idol-worshippers.
[3] Rabbi Moshe Sherer never marched with terrorists, like the Neturei Karta do.
[4] Rabbi Moshe Sherer never waved the Palestinian Flag, like the Neturei Karta do.
[5] Rabbi Moshe Sherer cared deeply about
the security of Israel, for many years, even though
Israel was a Secular Zionist state with Secular Zionist leaders![6] PLEASE DO NO LISTEN to Rabbi Moshe Sherer,
just because he was very close to many Gedolim
and tzaddikim for approximately half a century.[7] PLEASE DO NO LISTEN to Rabbi Moshe Sherer,
just because he always did what the Gedolim
told him to do, throughout his entire lifetime.__________________________________________
PS: If you doubt that my quotes are accurate,
then I invite you to find a copy of the book that I mentioned,
and turn to the chapter number and page numbers that I mentioned.
You will then see with your own eyes that my quotes are 100% accurate.The book that I quoted can be purchased from:
www (dot) ArtScroll (dot) com
www (dot) ebay (dot) com
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LINKS TO SIMILAR DISCUSSIONS WITH SIMILAR QUOTES:http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rabbi-shraga-feivel-mendlowitz-vs-satmar-rebbe
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http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/false-claim-about-jewish-history
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/jews-who-lived-under-muslim-rulehttp://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/praising-soldiers-who-destroy-our-enemies
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__________________________________________Supporting its security from Arab terrorism and war is not support for Zionism or the State. Far from it.
More Zionism from SQUARE_ROOT:
“In a fascinating letter to Rabbi Menachem Porush, written half a year after Israel’s dramatic victory in the Six-Day War [in year 1967 CE], Rabbi Sherer
agreed “that what transpired were great miracles.”PERSONAL COMMENT:
This short quote proves that Rabbi Moshe Sherer disagreed with those who said that Israel’s dramatic victory in the Six-Day War resulted from the sitra achra (satanic forces).””Obviously, Agudah lay leaders’ opinions are not relevant when they conflict with the Torah sages’ opinion, as is the case with the footnotes. Regardless, as to the above quotes, if he said that then he was basing himself on the Zionist lies and propaganda of the day, as the Zionist victory in their war of 1967, as even the Zionist historians admit, was never in doubt and also quite un-miraculous. In the footnotes at the end, you claim that this Agudah lay leader held the opposite of what all the gedolim held, despite your trumpeting how close to gedolim he was throughout his life. Obviously, either you’re mistaken about what he held (regardless of what any book claims he held), or he missed what the gedolim held. Rav Elchonon wrote openly in Kovetz Maamarim, and it’s also brought in the Brisker Rav book (and the Brisker Rav actually published in an Israeli newspaper, on which the Gerrer Rebbe and many others signed) that Zionism is idolatry and that “Religious Zionism” is idolatry with the addition of religion. The newspaper Kol Korei quote was that “Religious Zionist” education is a “sea of heresy mixed in with a drop of Torah”.
At least one other “personal comment” is also irrelevant, because no gadol ever stated that the sitra achara was the cause of the Zionists’ victory in their war of 1967. Rather, the Satmar Rav stated that the Zionist victory was decidedly un-miraculous. The sitra achara part of it is only that the Zionists were able to do such damage to Jews and Judaism AS A RESULT OF and IN THE AFTERMATH of that victory.
Finally, the comments about not doing as do the NK are also irrelevant. The Zionist love to frame their idolatry and lies as a binary of either being pro-Zionist or the alternative of NK. The truth, of course, is that there is the very large middle ground between those two approaches, with the Torah’s choice being with neither of those (though the NK are much, much, much closer to the truth than are the Zionists).
Eileh elohecha, Zionists.
Dude
You have way to much time on your handsHaKatan, your frequent posts achieve the opposite result – instead of increasing respect to gedolim like R Elchonon,
you make him into a political figure whose mission of life, Ch’V was to protect Zionism. I suggest you start posting
some of the R Elchonon’s Torah, his yeshiva building efforts, etc so that the readers start taking him in context of his achievements and positions.AAQ:
Rav Elchonon was one of the many gedolim (as in a real gadol biYisrael) who held this way, as can be seen in his Kovetz Maamarim. Anyone can search for his biographical information, like how he returned to Europe during the war despite the extreme danger to his life this presented (and he was ultimately murdered by Lithuanian collaborators, along with his talmidim).He and the other gedolim who held this way were obviously not “all about” anti-Zionism. They taught and published Torah, of course. The context here, however, is their clarity on the threat of Zionism to Jews and to Torah.
HaKatan: That is powerful statements you shared from Rav Elchonon hy’d and from the Brisker Rov ztvk’l. Everyone should pay heed to them.
Yasher Koach
ujm:
Baruch tihyeh. Thanks.HaKatan, you are just confirming my observation – you seem not to care for Rav Elchonon Torah and rather then sharing his thoughts with us, you are only interested in his position against Zionists. So, you refer to him because he happen to agree to your position, not because you are impressed by his Torah and became his student. This is a very self-serving way to (mis-)use divrei Talmidei Chachamim.
SQUARE_ROOT is simply copying/pasting and not reading (or ignoring) the responses to his earlier copy/pastes.
The Zionist victory in their war (of aggression) in 1967 was factually non-miraculous.
That was the view of the Satmar Rav, who never stated that it was a miracle from the sitra achara, as anyone has learned his sefarim could tell you, unlike the pathetic Zionist memes that they’ve spread all over.Always_Ask_Questions:
The topic of this thread was yet another pathetic Zionist attempt to legitimize their idol, which is why I responded to that topic.
Anyone is welcome to start other threads about Rav Elchonon’s Kovetz Shiurim and any other Torah from any other gadol.@always_ask_questions
wow an “ad hominem” AND a “strawman” fallacy at the same time!
goyim without Torah are very strange indeed!> ad hominem
it is not. I asked hakatan to expand on R Elchonon’s Torah and he is declining. Maybe he now decided to start a new thread and this will be great. Do you not find it strange when certain rabbis are only quoted in political context as if they are party representatives. This is demeaning to Talmidei Chachamim – as much as when selectively quoting some of them while claiming “all gedolim say”. We saw in some more serious discussions that, for example, Ohr Sameach and Netziv had way more nuanced view of early zionists.
in general, it is a feature of modern discussions to selectively support their side and hope that the truth will be understood from unlimited “free speech”. This is not a bad idea, but well below the Torah standard of emes where one should acknowledge all views and then advocate for his own. An unfortunate sign of assimilation even among those who claim to be against anything goyish.
I take issue with this thread. The most fundamental tenet of Agudath Israel is that its lay leaders follow its rabbinical leadership. T
There are many serious gedolim who strongly supported the creation of the State of Israel for various reasons (strongly evident in Igros Rabbi Chaim Ozer, for example). Furthermore, you can find a wide range of highly nuanced positions among gedolim regarding the State. While Rabbi Moshe Sherer is a very distinguished person and talmid chacham, his position is not of primary importance (except perhaps as a reflection of the gedolim from whom he took guidance).
aaq-hakatan is quoting r’ elchanan because there are quotes from him that are (supposedly) relevant. we could also tell you about the greatness of the chofetz chaim but that wouldnt have anything to do with this thread
Always_Ask_Questions:
I find it strange to be asked to quote from a gadol’s Torah when that is outside the scope of the thread. Why in the world would you even ask for that? People came to this thread to discuss the topic at hand, not for a general Torah shiur.Next, the Or Sameach and Netziv did not have a “more nuanced view” of early Zionists. From where did you get that?
The alleged piece by the Or Sameach, for example, which the Zionists love to abuse, was limited to settling the land with permission of the gentiles and in a totally non-political and peaceful way. That’s it. It also affirmed the halachic reality of the Oaths. On the other hand, the Zionist invasion of the holy land over a century ago and the Zionists’ wars and terror against the British and Arabs, which is what the Zionists did in reality, were very much not what the Or Sameach permitted. That was all obviously grossly forbidden, including a terrible violation of those Oaths, not that the Zionists cared in the slightest.
In general, it is a feature of Zionist propagandists to misquote, distort and lie, in the hope that readers will not know any better than to assume that they are being told real Torah truth rather than, liHavdil, Zionist lies and propaganda.
zvei dinim:
Exactly zero “serious gedolim” ever “strongly supported the creation of the State of Israel”, for any reason. Some, in Marienbad, for example, did unfortunately accept as a foregone conclusion the impending founding of that “State”. But of course nobody would ever support the establishment of a “State” that is a violation of the Oaths and (otherwise) a total rebellion against G-d, among numerous other problems.You are correct. The Netziv’s view was not nuanced. He was decidedly pro Religious Zionism as evidenced by the many letters written by him on the topic. They are not all published but it should not be too hard to find if you are truly interested. (I seem to recall hearing a frum historian lecturing on it. Perhaps it was on YU’s website.)
@Suare Root
My comment has nothing to do with the substance of your comments:
You are violating Federal copyright law when you constantly post direct passages from published and copyrighted works such as the Artscroll books you mentioned in this thread.
I suggest you read the copyright notices in the front of these books before you post.
Posting copyrighted material without permission and/or payment of royalties is ganeva.
In addition to possible civil action by the copyright holder you could be subject to criminal prosecution if the infringed presses the issue with the US Attorney
@Ex-CTLawyer – copyright law is not my area of specialty, but it seems to me that the sections quoted may be covered by the “Fair Use” doctrine – what do you think?
an Israeli Yid
Ex-CTLawyer,
“You [SQUARE_ROOT] are violating Federal copyright law when you constantly post direct passages from published and copyrighted works such as the Artscroll books you mentioned in this thread.”
He’s posting short quotations, fully cited, for the purposes of commentary and criticism. He’s not reproducing portions of the works in full or profiting from the usage. It’s highly unlikely that his usage would impact sales of the biography or other sources he’s bringing; in fact, his use may encourage sales. Wouldn’t this be a textbook example of fair use?
But of course nobody would ever support the establishment of a “State” that is a violation of the Oaths ….
[katan]
—LOL.
nobody … besides the posek hador the heiliger avnei nezer zatsal.
based on rambam ‘s yad , on tur , on shulchan aruch , on gemara ktuvot.
.
SQUARE_ROOT
You falsely claimed “The Three Oaths are never mentioned in ANY classic Halachah sefer,
because they are NOT HALACHIC.”As the Satmar Rav points out, numerous poskim bring the oaths as halachic. As mentioned, the alleged piece from the Or Sameach that states that the “fear” of violating the oaths no longer being a concern (regarding living peacefully and non-politically in the holy land), means that he certainly considered the oaths halachic.
In the Rambam’s Iggeres Teiman, he specifically warned the Jews against violating those oaths. If they weren’t “halacha” then he would not have done so.
Ramban never rejected them. The Satmar Rav discusses the Ramban as well. Yes, there is a mitzva to live there according to the Ramban but not to violate the oaths.The oath in force for 1,000 years do not refer to these oaths.
All your other Zionist apologetics are either similarly irrelevant or simply false.Even if the oaths were reciprocal (which they are not, but even if that were true) regarding the nations not overdoing their “oppression” of us, that would mean only that we would be allowed to rebel as a result. But it would not allow violating the other oaths including political sovereignty and ascending as a wall. Besides, as the Satmar Rav writes, there are many times throughout history where the gentiles oppressed the Jews but they did not rebel against the nations due to the oaths. The Rambam himself in his iggeres teiman is an example of this.
The oaths are brought down as halacha by poskim (the Satmar Rav lists numerous poskim, going all the way back) and, in fact, according to the Maharal, they are yehareig viAl yaavor, that even if the gentiles want to force us to violate the oaths, we would not be allowed to do that even at risk of life R”L L”A.
The moderators should delete this entire stupid worthless discussion, which was started by a lunatic
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