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QUESTION:
What did Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky ZTL ZYA say about the modern State of Israel?
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ANSWER:Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky ZTL ZYA said this about the modern State of Israel:
The State of Israel was one example he gave of
the need to replace kana’us with a more balanced view.On the one hand, he fully endorsed a letter issued
by Rabbi Elazar Schach on the eve of Agudath Israel
entering the governing coalition in Israel in 1977 [CE],
which called upon the religious community
not to be carried away by enthusiasm for a state
founded as a secular state, whose laws are secular laws,
and whose leadership is secular.He had himself frequently warned those leaving for Israel,
“Don’t lose your head at the sight of a Jewish army.”At the same time, he [Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky]
disagreed with the view of the Satmar Rebbe
that the miraculous Israeli victory in 1967 [CE]
was the work of the sitra achra (satanic forces):[Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky said:]
“I deny that miracles can emanate from a destructive satanical force.
Miracles of such magnitude can only be performed by a force for good.”Reb Yaakov [Kamenetsky] felt that but for
the creation of the State in 1948 [CE] a million Jews
would have become assimilated as a result of
the despair that followed the Holocaust and
attributed the renascence [rebirth] of Soviet Jewry
to the miraculous Israeli military victory in 1967.If only the Israeli government had also recognized
Hashem‘s miraculous deliverance in 1967 [CE],
he added, history would have been changed..…
Similarly, he concluded, recognition of Israel’s role
in preventing millions of Jews from losing
any connection to the Jewish people must mitigate
our kana’us, even as our love
for our fellow Jews in Eretz Yisrael
must “not blind us to [their] shortcomings.”SOURCE: Reb Yaakov: The Life and Times of HaGaon
Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky by Yonason Rosenblum,
based on the research of Rabbi Noson Kamenetsky (chapter 11, page 209),
Mesorah Publications, publication dates: February 1993 & January 2004,
ISBN: 0-89906-413-2 (hardcover)
ISBN: 0-89906-415-9 (paperback)__________________________________________
On the next page, page 210, Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky said this:“In this land … a carpenter is not merely a laborer,
but one fulfilling the mitzvah of building Eretz Yisrael.”__________________________________________
NOTE: Rabbi Aharon Feldman, in The Jewish Observer,
called “Reb Yaakov” a “remarkable book which
genuinely evokes the spirit of Reb Yaakov [Kamenetsky].”__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENTS:[1] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky never said that the State of Israel should be dismantled.
[2[ Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky never said that Religious Zionists were idol-worshippers.
[3] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky (in the quote shown above)
recognized that Zionism helped to PREVENT assimilation.[4] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky (in the first quote shown above)
recognized that Israel helped to PREVENT “millions of
Jews from losing any connection to the Jewish people.”[5] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky (in the second quote shown above)
said that a carpenter in Eretz Yisrael is fulfilling the mitzvah
of building Eretz Yisrael — even though Eretz Yisrael
was ruled by Secular Zionists, at that time. WOW!!
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PS: If you doubt that my quotes are accurate,
then I invite you to find a copy of the book that I mentioned,
and turn to the chapter number and page numbers that I mentioned.
You will then see with your own eyes that my quotes are 100% accurate.
__________________________________________Your attributions appear to accurately reflect the views of the R’ Kamenetsky, Z’L, who was clearly not a big fan of the secular state or its leadership but was strongly opposed to the calls from various factions of the tzibur seeking to withdraw entirely from any participation or cooperation. Even today, large segments of those factions continue to oppose specific policies of the medinah while still recognizing the realities of security requiring BOTH limud torah and a strong military.
@square_root
I am always amazed by your ability to distract from and remove Torah from any conversation. Again (and we all know why) you are unable to quote Torah sources and rather turn to questionable and inconsequential superficial mussing of Yonason Rosenblum as printed in Artscroll fanfiction.I don’t intend to throw the publishing house of Artscoll “under the bus” and I do learn from their Gemaras (of course many do not because of the questionable status of many of their collaborators), rather I intend to highlight the obvious truth that even Artscoll itself does not intend for their English language novelle to have any integrity historically or in the Beis Medrash. Instead it is meant for light chizuk reading for housewives (and, i suppose, @square_root).
The Satmar Rebbe’s book on the Israeli victory in 1967 (Al HaGeulah VeAl HaTemurah) says the win was since the Arabs were not very good soldiers.
If any Rav says he supports Zionism, he would tell his talmidim to join the army. His yeshiva would operate a “Hesder” yeshiva. He would circulate pictures of himself as a soldier. I don’t recall any of the pro-zionist “Hareidim” doing such. The primary difference between “zionist” Hareidim and anti-zionist Hareidim is the latter boycott the Israel elections and reject funding from the Zionists – and the former offer to sell their votes to the zionists (“you give me money, I’ll support you in the Kenesset).
“Don’t lose your head at the sight of a Jewish army.”
My initial reaction when I started reading this was ” this all sounds like things Reb Yaakov might’ve said, but I wish you would quote your sources” and then I scrolled further, and BAM sources!
Reb Yaakov was very middle of the road, very realpolitik.
He called out their kefirah when it was showing, he supported the good things they accomplished when they did, and most importantly he hoped for improvement as opposed to hoping to win a Pyrrhic victory at a time when we were just starting to recover from the holocaust.As told by a Talmid of Rav Ruderman ztl about a conversation they had.
“He was very tolerant and open to different points of view. His interest was learning Torah and teaching Torah. Unlike some others who still live in a bygone era and cannot deal with reality, he once told me “the state of Israel is a good thing, where would Jews have gone were there no State of Israel”. He encouraged all of us to go to Washington in 1967 during the Six Day War. He had compassion and deep understanding, the opposite of a fanatic.”Thanks to Square.
There is black. There is white.
And there are infinite shades of grey.
Some people only see the first two.
They are missing out.
.
.@ somejew
How does someone who needs an Artscroll to learn Gemara manage to have such strong, clear opinions on complex matters relating to derech HaPsak and Ikrei Emuna?
I heard from a belzer hasid who is ne’eman alai kevei trei that rav ahron mibelz z’l said the same thing as the [fanfiction in your language] artscroll quote from y rosenblum re where the homeless Jews after the war would/ could have gone to.
Imrai Emet writes in osef mihtavim that zhuyot for jews in EY obtained by the secular is a ‘good thing’ .
So Rosenblum’s quote of R Y Kamenetski is lav davka untrustworthy.
Part of satmar tactics in debates which I have observed over the years , is the ability of shutting out uncomfortable opinions of erliche rabanim, by
1] denying the veracity of the quote, ad kedei throwing aspersions of lying on the most dependable talmidei hahamim.
2] if no 1 is impossible , denigrating the rav quoted [himself] as not erlich.
.
.
They will resort to any of those subterfuges, as long as they do not have to admit to legitimate hilukei dei’ot between bona fide gdolei torah from both sides.
.
.Kuvult:
“Unlike some others who still live in a bygone era and cannot deal with reality, he once told me “the state of Israel is a good thing, where would Jews have gone were there no State of Israel”.”It is a chillul Hashem and bizayon of Rav Yaakov to conjure up statements he made over half a century ago before all the Zionist propaganda around their war in 1967 (and earlier ones) were known to be lies once the historical record was opened.
Most were unaware then that it was the wicked Zionists who both caused and contributed to the Holocaust. Were it not for the Zionists, there would not have been a Holocaust. Were it not for the Zionists, there would have been many more places to which Jews could have gone, because the Zionists had lobbied governments against accepting Jews into their countries because, as the Zionists stated then, during the Holocaust, “Rak biDam tihyeh lanu haAretz”. Therefore, there never would have been the concern of “where would Jews have gone”, if not for the wicked Zionists.
These facts are admitted by even the Zionists by now, who still maintain that Zionism is above all else, including Jewish lives, but this was not nearly as apparent back then.
yankel berel:
When it comes to the evil, idolatry and heresy of Zionism, there is indeed only one color: black.
Your assertion would also apply to the Holocaust, the destruction of our batei mikdash and all other calamities that Jews suffered throughout history. By your “logic”, some people think it’s all terrible, but they’re missing out, and it’s all really “gray”, not “black and white”, according to you.Indeed, the Holocaust was a contributing factor to the establishment of the Zionist “State”. So Zionists would see the Holocaust as “gray”, then.
No. The Torah has laws of what is evil and what is good. Zionism (and the Holocaust, which the Zionists caused), is evil, idolatry and heresy, according to all. Period.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Why do you pollute these boards with Zionist mistakes/propaganda and nonsense?Regarding the mistakes/propaganda:
First of all, historical fact is that the Zionist victory in their war in 1967 (as in the other times) were not “miraculous” but conventional military victories.
Next, you cannot quote where the Satmar Rav allegedly claimed that the Zionists’ victory in their war in 1967 was “miracles from the Satan”. The reason you cannot quote that is that the Satmar Rav never said/wrote that. If you learn his sefarim on the topic, you will see that the Satmar Rav wrote that the Zionist victory then was, as mentioned above, a conventional military victory.Regarding the nonsense:
First, Rav Yaakov told the Satmar Rav after learning from the latter’s sefarim that – since the latter had written that it would be worth all the time and effort to publish his sefer if even only one Jew is saved from the false belief in the Zionists – he, the Satmar Rav, had indeed convinced Rav Yaakov.Second, you wrote:
“Reb Yaakov [Kamenetsky] felt that but for the creation of the State in 1948 [CE] a million Jews would have become assimilated as a result of the despair that followed the Holocaust and attributed the renascence [rebirth] of Soviet Jewry to the miraculous Israeli military victory in 1967.”1. The Zionists caused and contributed to the Holocaust, as is obvious to anyone who has read the history, even if he most were unaware of that all those decades ago. Therefore, there would not have been any despair after the Holocaust because there would not have been a Holocaust to cause that despair.
2. The Zionist victory was not miraculous, as mentioned above.
3. Both the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav stated definitely that Moshiach would have come if not for the Zionists in 1948. So, that would have been infinitely better inspiration for the Soviet Jews of the time.
4. The Zionist “State” has shmaded at least three generations of Jews, including many of those Jews from the FSU. The Zionist pseudo-State has over 7 million Jews. Around half of those identify as secular. That means that there are at least 3 million Jews there now who are victims of Zionist shmad. Around a third consider themselves “Traditional”, which means the number shmaded rises to easily 5 million Jews. Clearly (besides for it being obvious from the Torah), Hashem did not and does not want that Zionist idol “State” no matter how much “inspiration” it supposedly provided.
rabbi paysach krohn said he knows that unlike other authors yonoson rosenblum makes sure to only print true stories with a verified source
@ Square Root
Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky ZTL, Rav Pam ZTL, Rav Yankel Galinzsky Ztl, The Chazon Ish Ztl, were all short men who got married proving your just a alter bucher with a axe to grind, who spends his days cutting and pasting random things that other people said.
>>>The Satmar Rebbe’s book on the Israeli victory in 1967 (Al HaGeulah VeAl HaTemurah) says the win was since the Arabs were not very good soldiers.
The militantly atheistic anti religious Jews say the exact same thing. I’ve yet to see anyone try to provide an independent analysis proving this was true.
When one side (Israel) is outnumbered between 3 to 9 in everything , soldiers, weapons, planes, etc and is facing a muti national coalition tht is attacking them all sides they don’t usually win the war in a mere six days. If they win at all. Even if their soldiers are better.
Furthermore if you believe that Israel won the six day war so quickly despite being so outnumbered because they were better fighters, then you should also believe the Zionist argument that had we been around during the holocaust we would have prevented it . Because we know how to fight.
Let’s also not forget that during the Six Day War, when the IDF took control of the Har Habayis, R’ Yaakov Kaminetsky said Hallel in Torah Vadaas.
Written by R’ Dovid Landesman, who was learning in Torah Vadaas during the Six Day War:
And then we heard the broadcast that will remain in my mind forever. Michael Elkins, the correspondent for the BBC and Newsweek, imbedded with the paratroopers led by Motta Gur, announced: “the IDF has captured the Temple Mount.” We heard his live broadcast of Rav Goren blowing shofar, of Motta Gur’s static filled message to his command post, “haKotel b’yadeunu, haKotel b’yadenu.” We heard singing, yes singing which turned out to be the soldiers themselves. Elkins described that most incredible and improbable scene: paratroopers, in the midst of battle, rushing toward a wall of stone, oblivious to the dangers around them, to the snipers and enemy soldiers, spontaneously breaking into song and dance. Elkins began to cry on the air, and we listening in Flatbush cried with him.
For as long as I live, I will never forget the expression on Rav Yaakov’s face or the sparkle in Rav Schorr’s eyes. It was as if the burden of history had been lifted from them. Rav Yaakov ran into the beis midrash and gave a bang on the amud. There was immediate silence and he said “shehechiyanu” – I do not remember if it was with shem and malchus. He then began to recite Hodu with tears streaming down his cheeks.
HaKatan, 2 points.
First, you just keep repeating yourself like a broken record, without listening to what others say. Nobody here is arguing that the secular Zionists were not good people. Personally, I agree with you about that part. Did they cause the Holocaust? I doubt it. Did they possibly contribute to many deaths? Yes. That doesn’t mean that Zionism as a whole, especially religious Zionism, is wrong.Second, if you’re going to talk about causing deaths, then let’s discuss the Satmar Rebbe, R’ Yoelish. He had a chance to save his kehilla in Europe – the Zionists offered to get them out, and bring them to Eretz Yisrael. He refused to allow them to speak in the town, saying that it was better to die than to collaborate with Zionists. Yet, he snuck out, at night, without telling anyone, to be saved by a Zionist. He abandoned his followers. Almost all of them were killed by the Nazis. He did exactly what he told his followers not to do, and did so in a cowardly fashion, sneaking out when nobody would see him.
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