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QUESTION:
What did Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky ZTL ZYA say about the modern State of Israel?
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ANSWER:Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky ZTL ZYA said this about the modern State of Israel:
The State of Israel was one example he gave of
the need to replace kana’us with a more balanced view.On the one hand, he fully endorsed a letter issued
by Rabbi Elazar Schach on the eve of Agudath Israel
entering the governing coalition in Israel in 1977 [CE],
which called upon the religious community
not to be carried away by enthusiasm for a state
founded as a secular state, whose laws are secular laws,
and whose leadership is secular.He had himself frequently warned those leaving for Israel,
“Don’t lose your head at the sight of a Jewish army.”At the same time, he [Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky]
disagreed with the view of the Satmar Rebbe
that the miraculous Israeli victory in 1967 [CE]
was the work of the sitra achra (satanic forces):[Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky said:]
“I deny that miracles can emanate from a destructive satanical force.
Miracles of such magnitude can only be performed by a force for good.”Reb Yaakov [Kamenetsky] felt that but for
the creation of the State in 1948 [CE] a million Jews
would have become assimilated as a result of
the despair that followed the Holocaust and
attributed the renascence [rebirth] of Soviet Jewry
to the miraculous Israeli military victory in 1967.If only the Israeli government had also recognized
Hashem‘s miraculous deliverance in 1967 [CE],
he added, history would have been changed..…
Similarly, he concluded, recognition of Israel’s role
in preventing millions of Jews from losing
any connection to the Jewish people must mitigate
our kana’us, even as our love
for our fellow Jews in Eretz Yisrael
must “not blind us to [their] shortcomings.”SOURCE: Reb Yaakov: The Life and Times of HaGaon
Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky by Yonason Rosenblum,
based on the research of Rabbi Noson Kamenetsky (chapter 11, page 209),
Mesorah Publications, publication dates: February 1993 & January 2004,
ISBN: 0-89906-413-2 (hardcover)
ISBN: 0-89906-415-9 (paperback)__________________________________________
On the next page, page 210, Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky said this:“In this land … a carpenter is not merely a laborer,
but one fulfilling the mitzvah of building Eretz Yisrael.”__________________________________________
NOTE: Rabbi Aharon Feldman, in The Jewish Observer,
called “Reb Yaakov” a “remarkable book which
genuinely evokes the spirit of Reb Yaakov [Kamenetsky].”__________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENTS:[1] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky never said that the State of Israel should be dismantled.
[2[ Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky never said that Religious Zionists were idol-worshippers.
[3] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky (in the quote shown above)
recognized that Zionism helped to PREVENT assimilation.[4] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky (in the first quote shown above)
recognized that Israel helped to PREVENT “millions of
Jews from losing any connection to the Jewish people.”[5] Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky (in the second quote shown above)
said that a carpenter in Eretz Yisrael is fulfilling the mitzvah
of building Eretz Yisrael — even though Eretz Yisrael
was ruled by Secular Zionists, at that time. WOW!!
__________________________________________
PS: If you doubt that my quotes are accurate,
then I invite you to find a copy of the book that I mentioned,
and turn to the chapter number and page numbers that I mentioned.
You will then see with your own eyes that my quotes are 100% accurate.
__________________________________________Your attributions appear to accurately reflect the views of the R’ Kamenetsky, Z’L, who was clearly not a big fan of the secular state or its leadership but was strongly opposed to the calls from various factions of the tzibur seeking to withdraw entirely from any participation or cooperation. Even today, large segments of those factions continue to oppose specific policies of the medinah while still recognizing the realities of security requiring BOTH limud torah and a strong military.
@square_root
I am always amazed by your ability to distract from and remove Torah from any conversation. Again (and we all know why) you are unable to quote Torah sources and rather turn to questionable and inconsequential superficial mussing of Yonason Rosenblum as printed in Artscroll fanfiction.I don’t intend to throw the publishing house of Artscoll “under the bus” and I do learn from their Gemaras (of course many do not because of the questionable status of many of their collaborators), rather I intend to highlight the obvious truth that even Artscoll itself does not intend for their English language novelle to have any integrity historically or in the Beis Medrash. Instead it is meant for light chizuk reading for housewives (and, i suppose, @square_root).
The Satmar Rebbe’s book on the Israeli victory in 1967 (Al HaGeulah VeAl HaTemurah) says the win was since the Arabs were not very good soldiers.
If any Rav says he supports Zionism, he would tell his talmidim to join the army. His yeshiva would operate a “Hesder” yeshiva. He would circulate pictures of himself as a soldier. I don’t recall any of the pro-zionist “Hareidim” doing such. The primary difference between “zionist” Hareidim and anti-zionist Hareidim is the latter boycott the Israel elections and reject funding from the Zionists – and the former offer to sell their votes to the zionists (“you give me money, I’ll support you in the Kenesset).
“Don’t lose your head at the sight of a Jewish army.”
My initial reaction when I started reading this was ” this all sounds like things Reb Yaakov might’ve said, but I wish you would quote your sources” and then I scrolled further, and BAM sources!
Reb Yaakov was very middle of the road, very realpolitik.
He called out their kefirah when it was showing, he supported the good things they accomplished when they did, and most importantly he hoped for improvement as opposed to hoping to win a Pyrrhic victory at a time when we were just starting to recover from the holocaust.As told by a Talmid of Rav Ruderman ztl about a conversation they had.
“He was very tolerant and open to different points of view. His interest was learning Torah and teaching Torah. Unlike some others who still live in a bygone era and cannot deal with reality, he once told me “the state of Israel is a good thing, where would Jews have gone were there no State of Israel”. He encouraged all of us to go to Washington in 1967 during the Six Day War. He had compassion and deep understanding, the opposite of a fanatic.”Thanks to Square.
There is black. There is white.
And there are infinite shades of grey.
Some people only see the first two.
They are missing out.
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.@ somejew
How does someone who needs an Artscroll to learn Gemara manage to have such strong, clear opinions on complex matters relating to derech HaPsak and Ikrei Emuna?
I heard from a belzer hasid who is ne’eman alai kevei trei that rav ahron mibelz z’l said the same thing as the [fanfiction in your language] artscroll quote from y rosenblum re where the homeless Jews after the war would/ could have gone to.
Imrai Emet writes in osef mihtavim that zhuyot for jews in EY obtained by the secular is a ‘good thing’ .
So Rosenblum’s quote of R Y Kamenetski is lav davka untrustworthy.
Part of satmar tactics in debates which I have observed over the years , is the ability of shutting out uncomfortable opinions of erliche rabanim, by
1] denying the veracity of the quote, ad kedei throwing aspersions of lying on the most dependable talmidei hahamim.
2] if no 1 is impossible , denigrating the rav quoted [himself] as not erlich.
.
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They will resort to any of those subterfuges, as long as they do not have to admit to legitimate hilukei dei’ot between bona fide gdolei torah from both sides.
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.Kuvult:
“Unlike some others who still live in a bygone era and cannot deal with reality, he once told me “the state of Israel is a good thing, where would Jews have gone were there no State of Israel”.”It is a chillul Hashem and bizayon of Rav Yaakov to conjure up statements he made over half a century ago before all the Zionist propaganda around their war in 1967 (and earlier ones) were known to be lies once the historical record was opened.
Most were unaware then that it was the wicked Zionists who both caused and contributed to the Holocaust. Were it not for the Zionists, there would not have been a Holocaust. Were it not for the Zionists, there would have been many more places to which Jews could have gone, because the Zionists had lobbied governments against accepting Jews into their countries because, as the Zionists stated then, during the Holocaust, “Rak biDam tihyeh lanu haAretz”. Therefore, there never would have been the concern of “where would Jews have gone”, if not for the wicked Zionists.
These facts are admitted by even the Zionists by now, who still maintain that Zionism is above all else, including Jewish lives, but this was not nearly as apparent back then.
yankel berel:
When it comes to the evil, idolatry and heresy of Zionism, there is indeed only one color: black.
Your assertion would also apply to the Holocaust, the destruction of our batei mikdash and all other calamities that Jews suffered throughout history. By your “logic”, some people think it’s all terrible, but they’re missing out, and it’s all really “gray”, not “black and white”, according to you.Indeed, the Holocaust was a contributing factor to the establishment of the Zionist “State”. So Zionists would see the Holocaust as “gray”, then.
No. The Torah has laws of what is evil and what is good. Zionism (and the Holocaust, which the Zionists caused), is evil, idolatry and heresy, according to all. Period.
SQUARE_ROOT:
Why do you pollute these boards with Zionist mistakes/propaganda and nonsense?Regarding the mistakes/propaganda:
First of all, historical fact is that the Zionist victory in their war in 1967 (as in the other times) were not “miraculous” but conventional military victories.
Next, you cannot quote where the Satmar Rav allegedly claimed that the Zionists’ victory in their war in 1967 was “miracles from the Satan”. The reason you cannot quote that is that the Satmar Rav never said/wrote that. If you learn his sefarim on the topic, you will see that the Satmar Rav wrote that the Zionist victory then was, as mentioned above, a conventional military victory.Regarding the nonsense:
First, Rav Yaakov told the Satmar Rav after learning from the latter’s sefarim that – since the latter had written that it would be worth all the time and effort to publish his sefer if even only one Jew is saved from the false belief in the Zionists – he, the Satmar Rav, had indeed convinced Rav Yaakov.Second, you wrote:
“Reb Yaakov [Kamenetsky] felt that but for the creation of the State in 1948 [CE] a million Jews would have become assimilated as a result of the despair that followed the Holocaust and attributed the renascence [rebirth] of Soviet Jewry to the miraculous Israeli military victory in 1967.”1. The Zionists caused and contributed to the Holocaust, as is obvious to anyone who has read the history, even if he most were unaware of that all those decades ago. Therefore, there would not have been any despair after the Holocaust because there would not have been a Holocaust to cause that despair.
2. The Zionist victory was not miraculous, as mentioned above.
3. Both the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav stated definitely that Moshiach would have come if not for the Zionists in 1948. So, that would have been infinitely better inspiration for the Soviet Jews of the time.
4. The Zionist “State” has shmaded at least three generations of Jews, including many of those Jews from the FSU. The Zionist pseudo-State has over 7 million Jews. Around half of those identify as secular. That means that there are at least 3 million Jews there now who are victims of Zionist shmad. Around a third consider themselves “Traditional”, which means the number shmaded rises to easily 5 million Jews. Clearly (besides for it being obvious from the Torah), Hashem did not and does not want that Zionist idol “State” no matter how much “inspiration” it supposedly provided.
rabbi paysach krohn said he knows that unlike other authors yonoson rosenblum makes sure to only print true stories with a verified source
@ Square Root
Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky ZTL, Rav Pam ZTL, Rav Yankel Galinzsky Ztl, The Chazon Ish Ztl, were all short men who got married proving your just a alter bucher with a axe to grind, who spends his days cutting and pasting random things that other people said.
>>>The Satmar Rebbe’s book on the Israeli victory in 1967 (Al HaGeulah VeAl HaTemurah) says the win was since the Arabs were not very good soldiers.
The militantly atheistic anti religious Jews say the exact same thing. I’ve yet to see anyone try to provide an independent analysis proving this was true.
When one side (Israel) is outnumbered between 3 to 9 in everything , soldiers, weapons, planes, etc and is facing a muti national coalition tht is attacking them all sides they don’t usually win the war in a mere six days. If they win at all. Even if their soldiers are better.
Furthermore if you believe that Israel won the six day war so quickly despite being so outnumbered because they were better fighters, then you should also believe the Zionist argument that had we been around during the holocaust we would have prevented it . Because we know how to fight.
Let’s also not forget that during the Six Day War, when the IDF took control of the Har Habayis, R’ Yaakov Kaminetsky said Hallel in Torah Vadaas.
Written by R’ Dovid Landesman, who was learning in Torah Vadaas during the Six Day War:
And then we heard the broadcast that will remain in my mind forever. Michael Elkins, the correspondent for the BBC and Newsweek, imbedded with the paratroopers led by Motta Gur, announced: “the IDF has captured the Temple Mount.” We heard his live broadcast of Rav Goren blowing shofar, of Motta Gur’s static filled message to his command post, “haKotel b’yadeunu, haKotel b’yadenu.” We heard singing, yes singing which turned out to be the soldiers themselves. Elkins described that most incredible and improbable scene: paratroopers, in the midst of battle, rushing toward a wall of stone, oblivious to the dangers around them, to the snipers and enemy soldiers, spontaneously breaking into song and dance. Elkins began to cry on the air, and we listening in Flatbush cried with him.
For as long as I live, I will never forget the expression on Rav Yaakov’s face or the sparkle in Rav Schorr’s eyes. It was as if the burden of history had been lifted from them. Rav Yaakov ran into the beis midrash and gave a bang on the amud. There was immediate silence and he said “shehechiyanu” – I do not remember if it was with shem and malchus. He then began to recite Hodu with tears streaming down his cheeks.
HaKatan, 2 points.
First, you just keep repeating yourself like a broken record, without listening to what others say. Nobody here is arguing that the secular Zionists were not good people. Personally, I agree with you about that part. Did they cause the Holocaust? I doubt it. Did they possibly contribute to many deaths? Yes. That doesn’t mean that Zionism as a whole, especially religious Zionism, is wrong.Second, if you’re going to talk about causing deaths, then let’s discuss the Satmar Rebbe, R’ Yoelish. He had a chance to save his kehilla in Europe – the Zionists offered to get them out, and bring them to Eretz Yisrael. He refused to allow them to speak in the town, saying that it was better to die than to collaborate with Zionists. Yet, he snuck out, at night, without telling anyone, to be saved by a Zionist. He abandoned his followers. Almost all of them were killed by the Nazis. He did exactly what he told his followers not to do, and did so in a cowardly fashion, sneaking out when nobody would see him.
Square Root, what you brought in the name of Rav Yaakov TZL os the typical viewpoint of non-Satmar Hareidim.
smerel:
Nope and nope.
The CIA shows it plainly on their website that they told the propagandizing Zionists that the war would take about a week and that the Zionists would wipe the floor with the Arabs.The Zionists were not outnumbered; it’s all Zionist lies. The Zionists were vastly superior to the savages in their 1967 war.
Regarding what the Zionists would have done in WW II, there’s no need to speculate because we know what evil they did: in addition to causing the Holocaust, the Zionists lobbied governments against allowing in Jews to their countries. Then you have the Zionist Kastner SR”Y who lied to the million Jews of Hungary to keep them docile instead of them overrunning the few Nazis there and/or escaping a few miles away, causing them to be sent to Hitler’s death camps blissfully unaware.
yankel berel:
Even if Rav Aharon of Belz thought the same thing, even if that’s true, that is again only because of Zionist propaganda and lies. The facts are, however, that this (and the rest of the) Zionist propaganda is untrue. The wicked Zionists caused the Holocaust and also contributed to it including by lobbying governments against allowing Jews into their countries, causing those Jews to fall to the Nazi genocidal murderers. That’s why the survivors then needed a place to go – because the Zionists had lobbied countries against allowing in Jews.The Satmar Rav labeled the Zionists as, among other things, the arsonist who then comes running with a fire hose.
No matter how many rabbanim you claim were fooled by Zionist propaganda of a century ago, the fact remains that they were believing Zionist propaganda lies, and therefore any statement based on those lies is obviously irrelevant.DaMoshe:
This story from YTV proves nothing positive about Zionism. In fact, it is the opposite. Rav Yaakov was happy about the cessation of the Jerusalem-related dangers that the Zionists had caused in 1948.Let’s review the history.
Prior to the Zionist declaration of “independence” in 1948, Jews were free to pray at the Kosel.
In 1948, when the Zionists decided to declare “independence” and then wage war against the wishes of the gentile nations, Jerusalem was, regardless, supposed to be an international city. The Zionists were specifically warned to not attempt to conquer Jerusalem, as doing so would cause the Jordanian League to enter the war. The Zionists didn’t care, of course, as Jewish blood is freely expendable to the Zionists when it is sacrificed on the altar of Zionism, and the propaganda value of having Jerusalem was way too valuable for the wicked Zionists in their attempt to lie that their “State” is Jewish. So, the Zionists attempted to capture Jerusalem anyways, which indeed caused the Jordanians to enter the war and to prevent the Zionists from capturing Jerusalem. This now meant Jordanian snipers right outside of Jewish villages near Jerusalem even after the Zionist war in 1948 had concluded. Once the Zionists sacrificed more Jewish blood in 1967, and captured Jerusalem, this Jordanian threat directly caused by the Zionists in 1948 finally came to an end.Bottom line: the Zionists have always been the enemies of the Jews, not their friends.
DaMoshe:
You haven’t read the history, obviously. Even a cursory reading of Perfidy would lead to the obvious conclusion that the Zionists caused the Holocaust, not just contributed to it, which is ghastly in and of itself.If not for the wicked Zionists and their lies, including Kastner, they would not have been gassed en masse.
I heard nearly the same exact words from R Moshe Wolfson zl who was a Talmud of R Yakov and in fact his hired mashgiach and right hand man. He gave us a whole shuir on the miracles and virtues of Zionism despite opposing its secular nature . It wasn’t hearsay or an ArtScroll book. I heard it from the tzadik mouth. This is more reliable than a source from our Torah that can always be interpreted how one likes. This is a mesora from a tazadik. By the way he also once told me that part of the reason that he says long sholosh seudas Torah was due to what he saw by the Satmar Reba Zya . So he knew all sides yet said what he said
I spoke with a person very close to Rav Yaakov on a daily basis. I asked him what was his Shita regarding Zionism. He said Rav Yaakov would say I’m with Satmar, we need to keep completely separate from the Medinah just like the Chasam Sofer in Hungary & Rav Hirsh in Germany. I understand this to mean that as a Kehilah, we need to stay culturally apart from the Zionists enterprise. However, it appears that politically, he was OK with voting in elections etc.
There’s a big difference between Shtadlonus with a secular entity & cultural assimilation in that entity. The Chareidi leadership mostly agreed with Shtadlonus on behalf of the Klal with the Zionist Government, they never accepted cultural assimilation with the state. The MIzrachi are different. They are proud Zionists culturally absorbed in the state on many levels.Katan is totally off .
He is willing to accept that R A miBelz was taken and ‘fooled’ by Z propaganda … even though RAB was miles away from any connection to olam hazeh including from Z propaganda.
But he is not willing to accept that SR [and others] exaggerated about the Z in order that his followers should stay away, even though this is perfectly acceptable al pi halacha as clearly delineated in hafets haim ….
.>>>The CIA shows it plainly on their website that they told the propagandizing Zionists that the war would take about a week and that the Zionists would wipe the floor with the Arabs.
Not true. The CIA never said that . I checked their website They did believe that Israel would win the war but nothing about a week and so little cost of life. And the CIA also promised Israel that it is their unanimous consensus that the Yom Kippur War will NOT happen. And the CIA at that very same time sent almost 60,000 Americans to their death in Vietnam saying that the US would win the war.
For the militant atheists yes the CIA prediction prove in the words of Yitchak Rabin “Anyone who thinks we won the six day war because God came to our aid is mistaken. It was all our superior strength and planning” Yes, Satmar strongly endorses and promotes the viewpoint of Yitzchok Rabin and co. Any independent analysis of the situation would indicate otherwise.
HaKatan,
I’m a Zionist and read Perfidy. As you (should) know, the Zionist Ben Hecht wrote it as a hit piece on Israel’s Labor Party immediately before an election, headed by Ben Gurion and which Kastner was a member of. You remind me of Simon Wiesenthal’s cover for Kurt Waldheim because of partisan loyalty, despite Waldheim’s Nazi past. (Read Betrayal by Eli Rosenbaum if you don’t know what I’m talking about.)
Let me ask you, was collaborating with the Zionist Peter Bergson (Hillel Kook) so wrong? If Zionists caused the Holocaust, did Bergson cause the Holocaust?
Do you think Rav Eliezer Silver, Rav Avraham Kalmanowitz, Rav Moshe Feinstein, and hundreds of other Rabbanim did the wrong thing by collaborating with Bergson/Kook?
Bonus question, did the socialist Zionist (Hashomer Hatzair leader) Mordechai Anielewicz cause the Holocaust?I look forward to your direct reply!
No Z caused the holocaust. This is utter drivel.
Some of them stood by while it was happening and some of them obstructed the hatzala.
Some of them did everything they could to save whatever they could.
Looks grey , right ? Not black and white .
Because that’s reality.
But none of them ’caused’ it.
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The difference between katan and an antisemite is marginal.Whatever the antisemite says about the Jew , katan says about the Zionist.
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.HaKatan: Ben Hecht didn’t read the history when he wrote Perfidy. Researchers have shown that numerous things he claimed as facts were flat out untrue. As chiefshmerel wrote, Hecht had an agenda, to attack Ben Gurion, and he did so by going through Kastner.
You also completely ignored my other post, and just kept on attacking Zionists as a whole, without differentiating between the secular and the religious. They are not the same. Get that through your thick skull.
As for the Six Day War, the fact that R’ Yaakov said Hallel Hagadol means that he recognized it as a good thing. All the other excuses (whether it’s Satmar claiming it was from the Satan, or claiming that the CIA knew it would happen) don’t matter. Besides, even if the CIA claimed it would happen – do you deny that everything is Ratzon Hashem?
People say that R’ Kook zt”l was blinded by his love for Eretz Yisrael, and made incorrect choices because of it. I say that the Satmar Rav was blinded by his hatred, and made bad choices because of it.
Kastner was killed by a fellow Zionist in revenge for Kastner being a Nazi collaborator, who worked hand in hand with Adolf Eichmann to murder over half a million of his fellow Hungarian Jews.
Kastner was even found guilty of Nazi collaboration by a Zionist court, Judge Halevi.
DaMoshe:
Perfidy is not a history book, but history books make it clear that the Zionists both caused and contributed to the Holocaust.
Regarding “thick skull”, it is the “Modern Orthodox” and “Religious Zionists” that seem to have this issue.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman wrote explicitly, as did others, that both “religious” Zionism and vanilla Zionism are idolatry. But the former also mix Torah into that.You asserted, with zero basis in facts and reality, that:
“As for the Six Day War, the fact that R’ Yaakov said Hallel Hagadol means that he recognized it as a good thing.”If one recites the gomel blessing for having his life saved, for example, that doesn’t mean that he’s happy that he went through the danger that he did, only that he’s happy that his life was saved. Same thing with the Zionists. Yes, it’s certainly a good thing that the savages didn’t kill more Jews there but, no, that doesn’t make the Zionists’ wars inherently good. They are inherently bad, and never would have happened had the wicked Zionists not invaded the holy land against the wishes of the Jews (and liHavdil gentiles) over a century ago (and the Zionists then caused the Holocaust and numerous other problems).
The Gerrer Rebbe did indeed write that about Rabbi Kook. But since you’ve likely never opened up a sefer of the Satmar Rav, and therefore have no idea of what he actually holds other than the memes you learned in MO-land, you probably should refrain from spouting things against him, especially as those are untrue.
yankel berel:
Those are the facts. The Zionist propaganda and lies generally reigns almost supreme, and, regarding the Zionist 6-day war, the Zionist propaganda and lies about that was certainly the only widely-known version of “facts” until later declassifications, etc.The gedolim warned that Zionism would cause unimaginable death and destruction, which it did in the Holocaust.
Just the simple treason of the Zionists lobbying governments against allowing in Jews to their countries, and also not allowing “Zionist” money to be spent to save Jews, regardless, are terrible enough. The reason that Palestine was basically closed was that the Zionists had invaded decades earlier and were fighting and terrorizing both the British and the Arabs. Otherwise, that, too, would have been open to Jews.But read the history books, even if you won’t listen to the gedolim. The evil Zionists caused the Holocaust and also contributed to it.
Eileh elohecha, Zionist idolaters.
Aha, so now Hakatan will say that the world famous Rav Aron of Belz, who all great Tzaddikim of his time looked up to, formed his opinion from propaganda.
Who else are you willing to toss aside in order to help your Shitta?
@DaMoshe
Also worth noting that there were many good and bad even among the nonf rum. So ben gurion was a rasha and i think that clear. He was out to shmad. We see how he kidnaped innocent children born after the holocaust and immigrants tearing them away from their mothers just to raise them in a non frum kibbutz. He was a murderer too as what occured with Began and the boat. On the other hand, Began was righteous despite being mostly secular (half frum). He commanded his army not to shoot back at ben gurion because we don’t shoot at other jews. This was after Ben Gurion YMS killed any of Began’s people. As it pertains to the war, yes the Zionists on charge then such as Ben Gruron and his ilk said one cow in Palestine is better than 1000 jews in Europe. They impeded R Michoel ber zl henceforth, Ben Hecht book.On the other hand there were members of the Zionist underground who were cooperative and did save jews. I don’t recall if Gisi felishman wa s a zionist but she was not frum yet saved jews. Thne you had jews like Samu (Shmuel) Stern, who its very hard to know what the right thing to do was during the war. Do you try to cooperate with germans to save a few which he did? Or do you tell everyone to run and hope more survive? Hindsight is always 20/20. I suspect many of the zionists were stuck with that dilemna tooEither way there is amesora form many holy people like R Wolfson and the Rizyna rebas that the founding of the state of Israel was a good thing, albiet onlt “shiveri kelim”
Correction to my other post, I meant Freudiger not stern
Phil Chernofsky, the retired Education Director of the OU Israel Center, gave this mashal:
Three brothers were injured while playing in the street. After a long hospitalization, they were released but needed further treatments. One thought that being released was sufficient. One thought that having to undergo further treatments meant that there was nothing to celebrate. The third thanked Hashem for comin g so far and prayed for a complete recovery.
@ HaKatan
“The Zionist “State” has shmaded at least three generations of Jews…The Zionist pseudo-State has over 7 million Jews. Around half of those identify as secular. That means that there are at least 3 million Jews there now who are victims of Zionist shmad
Right. Back in the alta heim all yidden where shomer Torah and Mitzvot. And in American there is isn’t and never was any assimilation whatsoever. It’s only the the Zionist entity that drives assimilation / secularism. Got it.
You may want to take a peek at the demographic trends in Israel. Then again, probably not. Carry on.
HaKatan has still not answered my questions about whether the Zionist Bergson/Kook caused the Shoah, and whether various American Gedolim were wrong to collaborate with him. Neither has he answered the reason for massacres in Hebron & Safed in 1517, 1834, and beyond, as discussed in another recent thread.
I speak of him in the third person because I know that HaKatan won’t answer me. My responses are not intended to change HaKatan’s mind nor that of his sympathizers; they are lost causes who spread drivel and lies against our only land. Rather, it is so that an uninformed but open-minded reader won’t fall for the greatest blood libel in history. It’s so that antisemites don’t go unchallenged.
שטיקה כהודאה. Silence is complicity. Or to quote HaKatan’s friend Linda Sarsour (using a generic quote that is in no way original), with language he can understand, “we are not here to be bystanders”.HaKatan, if you have anything to say, please do. Explain the policies of the Zionist movement as a whole toward Jews of Europe during the Shoah. (Do they teach about Menachem Begin’s activity at that time in Satmar yeshivas?) To quote you, “Perfidy is not a history book”. You got that right – it is an editorial.
Explain why the politically neutral Jews in Hebron and Safed were massacred by their Mamluk, Egyptian, and Ottoman governments, despite (more likely because of) their dhimmi status.
Spoiler alert, you can’t!hakatan- do you think every (or at least the vast vast majority) gadol agrees with your view on zionism or if not because they were lied to
What I find very difficult , is the speech Shumer gave , explaining his support of arms embargoes against Israel during a seven front war .
He sourced inter alia Satmar shitah.
Official Satmar kept quiet about that and did not protest at the usage of their shitah to deny 8 million innocent Jews living in EY, lifesaving defensive equipment.
I cannot understand how they could do that .
.Lo ta’amod al dam rei’acha does not appear in their sifre torah ???
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.@Non Political
the truth is both though. There were definitely zionists out there to shamd and who hated the frum. Ben Gurion YMS and his team openly stated so. We know they kidnapped from children from birth and sent them to frei kibbutizm. Th3e chazon ish z’l own assistant use to sneak in to try to get them back. We all know the fiaah yossela story where the govt spend resources that could have been used to hunt down Mengeles YMS , but instead they went and used it to hunt down Yossela hiddne by rus Blau and staying by a satmara in willamsburg just to shmad him. On the other hand there are good zionsists such as Began and others who were perhaps semi or not frum but not out to get the charedim to be not frum. Fast foward to today and almost no zionists is out to make charedim not frum anymore. Their goal is that they fight and work vs just learning. Maybe they are out to make them 5-towns bal habatim vs chasidsiha yidden or BMG yungerlit
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