ארץ ישראל and the state

Zushy said:

“….somehow prove something about the state?”

__________________________________________

What those quotes prove is that relentless attacks
against The State of Israel and against “The Zionists”
are a very big mistake.

Certain people in this Coffee Room never stop
attacking The State of Israel and never stop
attacking “The Zionists”.

Those never-ending attacks are a very big mistake,
and only cause Jews to HATE EACH OTHER
more than before, and they also push us closer
to a JEWISH CIVIL WAR, with Jews killing other Jews.

Those relentless attacks against The State of Israel
and against “The Zionists” are NOT a mitzvah;
they are motivated by The Satan, who wants
Jews to HATE EACH OTHER more than before.

Those relentless attacks against The State of Israel
and against “The Zionists” are NOT a mitzvah;
they are motivated by The Satan, who wants
to push Jews into to a JEWISH CIVIL WAR, with
Jews shooting at Jews and Jews killing other Jews.

The Satan knows what Chazal teach:

The Jewish people will not be redeemed until
they become UNITED. So the Satan constantly
pushes the anti-Zionists into never-ending attacks
against “The Zionists” and against the world’s
only Jewish State, The State of Israel.

This never-ending lack of unity blocks Jews from being redeemed.
So long as anti-Zionists constantly attack “The Zionists”
and The State of Israel, the redemption can never come,
because Jews are very far from the unity that is requited for redemption.

Zushy – to answer your question, Chazal state – יפתח בדורו כשמואל בדורו. There are indeed pro-Zionist quotes attributed to the Gedolim of previous generations (besides for all the quotes that are taken out of context or just downright fabricated to portray a hasidic rebbe or rosh yeshiva as being sympathetic toward Zionist kefira חס ושלום). But notice that I said PREVIOUS generations – you will not hear any pro-Zionist statements from ANY of the current Gedolei Hador שליט”א. Baruch Hashem to that! This has been the case ever since the Godol of the Gedolim, the ineffable Rav Shach זצוקללה”ה, reinstated saying Tachanun on Yom HaAtzmaut in Ponevezh, despite the fact that the Ponevezher Rav omitted it. So we are obligated to follow the CURRENT gedolim who pasken without a doubt that ZIONISM IS KEFIRA!!!

The only reason you can go to Israel is _cuz_ of the zionist state. Your extremism is showing. If something happened in reality you can’t wash it away with your one size fits all speak. Things have different sides to it. Life might not agree with your “ideology” but you can’t force reality to bend to your will

Somejewiknow, so , you don’t want to recognize Israel as a Jewish state? Fine. In that case, it has a right, like any other legitimate government, to determine who gets drafted. So, if it’s not a Jewish state, what would be your justification to claim deferment as a Yeshiva student? Israel doesn’t need your recognition to draft you

There is a tangible link between the Ahavas Eretz Yisroel and the medina. Before the medina, for most Jews, ahavas Eretz Yisroel was only theoretical. The medina has enabled us to make our Ahavas Eretz Yisroel tangible. The medina enables all of us to return home to Eretz Yisroel and be mekayem yishuv Eretz Yisroel. The medina is fascillitating a modern day Kibutz Galuyos, which may very well be the precusor to Mashiach iyH. There is more Torah in Eretz Yisroel then any time in history since the fall of Beitar (and maybe even more than then), and there may very well be more Torah in Eretz Yisroel than anywhere in the world. The medina not only enables this but is the biggest funder of Torah. They provide services to enable us to live here and provide an army as HaShem’s tool to protect us from our surrounding enemies. While the medina is far from perfect, we are all better off with medina, and owe it our undying hakaras hatov.

I know the original founders were not only irreligious, but anti-religious. I don’t know how HKB”H will judge them, but what they were able to build for us is undeniable. Their positive impact for Klal Yisroel will be enjoyed by us for generations iyH. And sometimes, when I think about it, it makes me sad. Many of the Rabbonim at the time felt that this irreligious anti religious Zionisim was incompatible with halacha, And because of that, many young Zionists who became pioneers of the eventual state had to choose between Yiddishkeit and Zionism… and belieiving that they had no future in anti semitic and genocidal Europe, chose ZIonism and a future in Eretz Yisroel at the expense of Avodas HaShem. They believed the Rabbonim that Yiddishkeit and Zionism were incompatible… and abandoned Yiddishket.

But I wonder… did it have to be that way? I wonder what the modern state would look like if the early pioneers and founders didn’t feel like they had to choose between one and the other? If we had more religious Zionists from beginning combatting the anti-religious element. I wonder how that state would look like then…

But HaShem decided that that wasn’t how the state was supposed to look. HaShem chose to grant our yeshuos throguh non religious and anti religious, and granted them great success. Now we have a medina, we have Eretz Yisroel, the positives and the minuses… הודו לה’ כי טוב.

>>>Certain people in this Coffee Room never stop
attacking the Chareidim and never stop
attacking “The Ka’noim”.

No one would attack the Kanoim if they would keep their big mouths shut. They run around criticizing everyone (except for themselves, of course) and spewing hatred for everyone while using very provocative insensitive ways of speech, and then they whine when they hated in return.

As someone had once been a big anti-Zionist kanoi himself the primary factor causing my leaving that world and current vehement opposition to that world was the realizing that had I been born a secular Israel or even Mizrachi, I would also hate the Charadie world and want to destroy it, if everyone in it acted like the kanoim. Who doesn’t hate a group that is always looking to fight with or at least make fun of them?

none2.0:
You seem confused as to reality. Did you know that Jews were able to visit the Kosel before 1948 and that only thanks to the Zionists’ war of “independence” did the Jews lose the ability to go to the Kosel? Were it not for Zionism and its “State”, Mashiach would have (not just could have but would have) been here decades ago (according to both the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav), so we would certainly have had no problem going to the holy land. But, besides for that, the Jews lived peacefully with their neighbors in the holy land until the Zionist interlopers came in and lit the region aflame. Yes, the Chevron Massacre/Pogrom in the 1920s was a direct result of Zionism, of course.

simcha613:
Your claims are not based in reality. Jews lived in Eretz Yisrael long before the Zionists invaded in the early 20th century, and well before they declared their “State” in 1948. As well, Jews throughout the ages tangibly expressed their ahavas haAretz by moving there, including the Or HaChaim HaKadosh hundreds of years ago and many, many, many others.

The Zionist “State” has destroyed more Torah than anything else in history. They’ve shmaded at least three generations of Jews, numbering in the millions of people!! The yeshivos there exist despite the Zionists, not because of them. The biggest supporter of Torah currently is actually the Russian President, not the Zionists.

No, the “medina” is not only far from perfect, it is an abomination and massive rebellion against G-d. And it has shmaded generations of Jews as mentioned. If any secular country in the world were to do even a fraction of what the wicked Zionists do to the Jews there, everyone would be yelling about it non-stop. So, to claim as you did that we are “better off with the medina” is both absurd (on a practical level) and heresy: we are always better off following G-d’s wishes, not massively rebelling against him as the Zionist “State” was, is and does.

You are also totally misrepresenting the origins of Zionism. The express purpose of Zionism always was and remains today: change Judaism from a Torah-based religion to an anti-G-d idolatrous nation-state-based “religion”.

Hashem did not choose to grant any yeshuos through the Zionists. Hashem did listen to those who prayed for the Zionists and did give them success, to the tremendous detriment of Jews worldwide. “We” do not have a medina. “We” do not have E”Y. We could have visited E”Y before the Zionists came, and could have lived there before then, too. The Zionists have wreaked havoc and cataclysmic destruction there in E”Y.

It is shocking that above even has to be written and is not already obvious to all.

HaKatan- the lies that you spout make me so sad.

There is no shmad in Israel. No one is forcing or trying to make religious Jews in Israel non religious. This isn’t the inquisition. This isn’t the 25 year Russian army. Yes, there are challenges but there are challenges everywhere. At least in Israel the chances that even a non religious Jew will marry Jewish and will eventually return (or their children) is far greater.

And of course Jews lived in Israel before the medina… but it was far fewer. The goyish governments did not allow unrestricted immigration. Very often there were harsh punitive taxes making life in Israel unsustainable for many. The medina has removed the boundaries for entry for all Jews with the right of return, and while there still are high taxes, the current state allows all Jews to thrive in our homeland. Can you not see how the demographic in the Holy Land is drastically different from the times you are describing? Can you not see how the Medina has enabled all of that to happen?

The government is so much better to all Jews, secular and religious (including Charedi), than any other country in the world. You are so blinded by your hatred of Zionism that you can’t even see what good it has brought to our people.

“Hashem did listen to those who prayed for the Zionists and did give them success, to the tremendous detriment of Jews worldwide. ” What kefira is this? How far have you fallen that in order to rationalize your conviction that Zionism is evil you need to convince yourself that Hashem acted to the detriment of Jews worldwide in helping the Medina succeed? Are you that blind?

Other than your group of stubborn hardliners, I assume everyone else will see right through your lies and pathetic attempts to discredit all the good that Hashem has given us through the medina. If this truly is Kibutz Galuyos and the precursor to Mashiach, I have no doubt that you will be among the group who will be in denial and will remain behind while the rest of us experience geulah.

“First, what source in Torah do you have that makes this a meaningful distinction. Is your implication that a government that keeps Torah law is a “Jewish” government? So, which governments are the ones keeping more Jewish law?“

You obviously don’t understand what makes something more Jewish than something else

Hakatan wrote

“bottom line, there is nothing “Jewish” about the zionist state, certainly nothing more Jewish than New York State or Lebanon.“

To which I replied

“I don’t think NYS or Lebanon shuts down their buses and their government offices on Yom Kippur”

I didnt compare Israel to NY or Lebanon, Hakatan did, i didnt say Israel is a Jewish state im just showing that it’s “more Jewish” than Lebanon or NY

In feldheim’s translation of מאמר הגאולה from the רמח״ל quotes the מלבים (in a letter to Rav Tzvi Hirsh Kalischer) that the Jews will gain permission from the great leaders of the world to have ארץ ישראל then they will settle there , then Moshiach will come

It seems like the tziyonim are going according to this malbim

.
katan’s rantings are nothing more than a minority and distorted view

of torah ,

of reality, and

of the application of torah to reality
.

> The biggest supporter of Torah currently is actually the Russian President, not the Zionists

Lozada zechus, someone broke into the account and impersonated the poster.

HaKatan said:

“The Chazon Ish held that wine owned by a Religious Zionist is yayin nesech.”

__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:

Prove it, by providing an exact source that all of us can verify.

I suspect you of creating false “facts” to “prove” your beliefs.

Anti-Zionists do that sometimes, because of their excessive kanaus.

Maybe I should send an email to the OU Kashrus Department,
and ask them what they think? Or maybe the Star-K Department?

riva:
It is actually the Zionists who are literally full of hate, who have destroyed generations of Jews and working even harder than in the past to destroy the olam haTorah in E”Y. It is the wicked Zionists who impoverish the Jews there and don’t allow them to work until age 26! unless the Jew agrees to first convert to Zionism from Judaism in the Zionist shmad army. That is extremely hateful. And on and on.

> who have destroyed generations of Jews and working even harder than in the past to destroy the olam haTorah in E”Y.

I asked you before and did not an answer:
– what is your source that Zs destroyed anyone? Non-religious Jews in Europe became non-religious Zs and were saved from Nazis and Commies.
– who is destroying your olam? your olam is asking for money and for being exempt from serving in the army like anyone else. There are no commies running around EY trying to close yeshivos like in communist russia.

The ‘quote’ (mis)attributed here to the Chazon Ish regarding yain nesech doesn’t make sense at all לשיטתו, and IMHO could not have been said by him. (Or else something is missing from the statement or the context.) The burden of proof is on whoever makes such a sensational claim to provide verifiable sources.

Seriously folks, on both sides of the never ending fight, let’s try to understand:

1. SECULAR ZIONISM IS LONG SINCE DEAD AND BURIED.

Secular Zionism is the belief that by establishing a state the Jews would be accepted into the ‘family of nations’ as equals, ending antisemitism. In other words: ככל הגוים בית ישראל. That is straight אפיקורסות. That was the real goal, and settling the Land was simply the means to the goal, but a state in Uganda would also have been fine for them. That is what the גדולים were fighting against, and all quotations on this subject pertain to an era when that belief was current. At the time, there were unfortunately ‘religious’ Jews who bought into that ideal. (Not the Uganda stuff, but the idea of ‘auto-emancipation’.) Nowadays no sane person can seriously believe any of this, because it is so painfully obvious that Zionism did nothing to ameliorate antisemitism, and the Jewish people will never be accepted by the Goyim, with or without a state. (Not a surprise for us…)

2. THE RESHAIM CURRENTLY FIGHTING כל דבר שבקדושה IN ארץ ישראל ARE NOT ZIONISTS.

The Secular Left in Israel today mostly subscribe to what has been referred to as ‘Post-Zionism’, meaning they believe that the whole concept of a Jewish State is wrong and unethical, and they seek to establish a ‘State of all it’s citizens’. Vis-a-vis the ‘Palestinian’ issue, this is sometimes referred to as the ‘One State Solution’. This comes from the postmodern/progressive opposition to nationalism in general. They are viciously anti-religious and pro תועבה, as well as all the other garbage Progressives hold dear. Some of the more extreme ones actively help enemies of the State of Israel, as has been reported on this site in several articles.

3. NOT ALL OF TODAY’S ‘RELIGIOUS ZIONISTS’ EVEN BELIEVE IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL AS ראשית צמיחת גאולתנו ETC.

The term ‘Religious Zionist’ as used today encompasses a broad range of groups, from people who are barely שומר מצוות altogether, to those who are completely Chareidi in their lifestyle and standards of Yiddishkeit, but they also believe in building settlements on the hills of the Shomron to hasten the גאולה. Many of the latter groups do not even hold of the State, or even serve in the Army. In fact, it is well known that boys who show up to the לשכת הגיוס wearing a certain ‘look’ associated with certain ‘Religious Zionist’ groups are usually rejected automatically…

Here is the quote from Maaseh Ish, Book 1, page 221-222:

המפסק בדברי חז”ל – אוסר יין במגעו

בשיחה אחת התבטא: כל האומר שיש מחלוקת אפילו דיבור אחד שהוא “לאו דוקא”, הרי זה מקצץ בנטיעות, והאיש “הבינוני” מוכרח לומר כך כשמצטרף. אף נזהר מלאכול עופות שנשחט ע”י רב פלוני, שו”ב מומחה ואומן יד, שנחשד בהשתייכות ל”בינונים” מהטיפוס הנזכר.

רבינו גרס בעקביות, שאדם המסולף בדעתו, גרע ממחלל שבת לטומא יין במגע. הגיד שמריהו גריינימן זצ”ל, שהעיד כך בשמו. הוסיף וסיפר על התבטאות רבינו בתקופה וילנא. באותו זמן נהג להתארח אצלו בחדר למדן מופלג, שנהג לכבדו בבקבוק יין מדי יום שישי. הוא היה מרבה לשוחח עם רבינו בדברי תורה, ופעם העלו את דברי חז”ל, בעומק מלך הבשן שקרר כדי להשליכו על מזבח יהשראלי, ונעשה גם שנמלים חררו את פסגתו ונתלה על ראשו בגלגול. והעיר על כך הבחור: מסתמא נאמרו הדברים בלשון מליצה והפלגה… פניו של רבינו קדרו ואמר לו במרמז: “לשבת הבאה אל תביא עמך יין…”

היה קודש אצל בת של רב מאנשי המזרחי, ורבינו הגיע לשם. אותו רב ביקש לכבד את רבינו לעשות קידוש. ואמר לו: פעם ראשונה שאני שומע
שרב מזרחי אינו אוסר את יינו במגע…!? (מהג”ר שמריהו גריינימן זצ”ל).

וכך כותב רבינו בא’ מאגרותיו: “נרתעים אנחנו לשמוע קול ספק בדברי חז”ל, בין בהלכה בין באגדה, בשמועה של גידוף רח”ל, והנוטה מזה הוא לפי קבלתנו ככופר בדברי חז”ל, ושחיטתו נבלה, ופסול לעדות, ועוד. ובראשית הנליזה לפני נ’ ס’ שנה, אשר רוב העם היו שומרי מצוה, היו הנלוזים מתחילים להתמך על הדברים המפוקפקים מעין אלה והחרדים דברו ית’ היו מרחיקים את רוח הכפירה הנודף מהם, וכל הדור החפשי הם על הרוב מבניהם ומנכדיהם של האבות והזקנים האלה” (קוב”א ח”א ס’ ט”ו).<blockquote/>

Thanks for the one of prompt service of somejew and katan re the source of chazon ish supposedly considering someone who celebrates yom hatsmaut as an apikorus

we know now that is a fraudulent claim

nowhere in the quoted text does it say that

.

@YYA:
Thank you. I have been trying to explain all this. However, certain posters here will not listen regardless of what you tell them and how true it may be.

@Simcha: The anti-Zionists here will never listen.

@HaKatan: I’d like you to list “all the rest”. Name them.

@yankel-berel
let @HaKatan post his source for his statement about celebrating the “Nakba”. I posted the source for those asking where it is written that the Chazon Ish said that the wine of a RZ is yayin nesech.

>>>the blame of early zionists going OTD is not to laid at door of the rabbanim it is where it rightfully belongs – at the door of those zionists themselves you are supporting revision of real history

This in itself is a revisionist history claim as it implies that the early Zionists were frum but then went OTD when they got caught up in Zionism. In reality almost none of them were frum by the time they joined the Zionist movement and most of the anti frum had been anti frum beforehand too.

The anti-Zionist love saying things like Theodore Herzl used to light a Xmas tree and had at one point in time wanted to convert all Jews Xtianity. If that is true, then Zionism was a major step up from what those people would have been doing had they not become Zionists.

@yaakov-yosef-a
you are missing the key point that being zionist is specifically לועג על דברי חכמים.

@smerel
it is obvious that being zionist is worse than being xtian, both for the rushe and for the yiddishe tzibor.

@damoshe
i agree that these stories mean nothing except to strengthen what is already taught in Torah.

Claiming that any zionist (especially a RZ galach) brought someone closer to Torah is like claiming the Mitzrim got the Jews to really daven. We cannot possibly know how great the damage being done by every money paid by zionists into otherwise kosher institutions. Nonetheless, we can be certain that we Jews would be better off if they had never started their war against Judaism, and we can be certain that we would be better off if they would disappear today, just as we daven three times a day for their quick peaceful downfall and destruction.

Sorry Joe,

Just saw this

“Coffee Addict: So America is Christian, since they shut down government offices on Chrsitmas?“

It’s more Christian than Israel or Egypt