January 9, 2024 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #2252394
ProblematicJanuary 10, 2024 7:55 am at 7:55 am #2252555Sam KleinParticipant
So let the true board in charge of the chasidus appoint a new rebbe in charge to lead the chassidim of that chasidus and if they see he’s truly the right person then they will follow in his ways and listen to his words all the way %100 from all angles regarding all topics not just religious topics.January 10, 2024 7:55 am at 7:55 am #2252577ujmParticipant
Breslov seems to be doing fine.January 10, 2024 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2252638hujuParticipant
Lubavitchers seem to be doing fine than Beeslov.January 10, 2024 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2252654
Indeed, there are no radical extremists in the groups who have living Rebbes, there are no fights among those chassidim, police are never called to stop wild young bochurim from those sects.
There are never fights in Ponevezh where they have living gedolim and roshei yeshiva.
These things only happen in sects without a rebbe living physically.
lolJanuary 10, 2024 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2252675DontMindMeParticipant
If you think Breslov is doing fine then you don’t know Breslov.January 10, 2024 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2252730sensibleyidParticipant
Moses died and his life mission was that of a good teacher to make himself superfluous.
sry i dont have anything specific to say about chasidusJanuary 10, 2024 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #2252733jackkParticipant
Lubavitch also seems to be doing fine.January 10, 2024 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2252758Emunas1Participant
Breslov is not doing fine.
Lubavitch is also not doing fine. They’re both a hefkervelt, with some really heilige people who follow the chassidus and others who do not and sow chaos.
They both need a Rebbe who is living and in touch with the times.January 10, 2024 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2252805
I like the appointment idea. In yerusha, every yid has someone to inherit him, going up the family tree. So, for L there should be a kapustin or some other cousin rebbe somewhere. He doesn’t need to do it full time, just resolve major machloketsJanuary 10, 2024 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2252809sechel83Participant
the “purpose” of a rebbe is (as explained in tanya) he has a higher neshama and from him comes chayus – both spiritual and physical to his chassidim and even not his chassidim including even those that fight against him. this is only the rebbe’s relation to his chassidim, in essence the rebbe is much higher.
now as explained in tanya this hashpaah of the tzadik is even greater after he is nistalek, so whether you beleive the rebbe is alive or not ch”v, we have a rebbe, and thats where our chayus comes from.
i assume the intended question was that since some see things in chabad and breslev that they think is crazy, they should appoint a rebbe to straighten them out.
1) the reason they do these things (most) is because they are following their rebbe’s directive, so obviouly if there would be a nother rebbe he would follow the rebbe and not the opinion of some ywn coffee room person (or even a litvishe gadol). 2) and the ones that dont follow their rebbe, well if there was a live one why would they follow either, everyone beleives Hashem is chai vikayom, and many (r”l as of now) dont keep all mitzvos, halachos etc. 3) in lubavitch (dont know about breslev) the rebbe clearly said there wont be another rebbe, the rebbe gave instructions how to act when having a question after 3 tamuz, so should lubavith GO AGAINST their rebbe and apoint a nother one?! they would be misnagdim! not chassidim. 4) we cant give someone this neshama that a rebbe is, only hashem can 5) if youre question is someone to lead, we have rabbonim, roshai yeshivos, mashpiiim just like everyone else.January 10, 2024 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2252759Litvishe FellowParticipant
Every person must take self responsibility. Hashem gave the Torah to each of us and we must use our divine-given brain to make proper decisions.January 10, 2024 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2252761GadolhadorahParticipant
Better for shalom Bayis and the absence of physical and legal conflicts for a Chassidus to have at least TWO living Rebbes (aka Satmar, Bobov etc). Most observers agree that iit is difficult to litigate against yourself and punching yourself in the nose is a challenging endeavorJanuary 10, 2024 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2252791
Jack K its not fine. It’s become the wild West.January 11, 2024 1:50 am at 1:50 am #2252909
It’s become the wild West.
Becoming the wild west? Or something wild happened there a few days ago when about a dozen wild boys tried breaking a wall?
How many yeshivos did this not happen with?
Just look at YWN, and you’ll find many cases of vandalism by wild yeshiva bochurim in all kinds of yeshivos. And there are many more not reported by YWN (such as the riots in Ponevezh in 5781).
You seem to be keyed in to Ponevezh
The unfortunate thing is that for סיבות שונות ומשונות, this story made an uproar in the news.January 11, 2024 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #2253046
mod, You seem to be keyed in to Ponevezh
Yup, I think it’s a great example that the litvisher posters can relate to.
(Interesting that you don’t point out how many people seem keyed in to Lubavitch)
people ask because they have questions, your intent was something else I don’texpect from you.
P.S. I’m honestly curious as to the rationale why YWN didn’t cover the terrible fights in Ponevezh, Gur, etc. which were much much worse (and were anyways covered widely by the media), but fully covered this 770 story with several articles and dozens of videos, when it was just a case of vandalism by several bochurim and an altercation with police.
How many is several? Just askingJanuary 11, 2024 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #2253127KuvultParticipant
A (Frum Rabbi) history professor has said many times that, “There’s no such thing as a Chasid without a Rebbe.”
Chabad & Breslov may be around but none of their members can be considered “Chasidim” Baked into Chasidism is a Rebbe figure who leads & keeps the followers on the same page.
In the past if the govt enacted & enforced laws banning Chasidic garb what was the response? If the Rebbi said no one is changing no one changed. If the Rebbe said change, everyone changed.
What would happen with Chabads all over America if the govt banned Chabad garb with severe penalties? It would be a disorganized mess. This Rabbi says yes & this Rabbi says no. This Shaliach says no this Shaliach says all I need to do to continue reaching out to Yidden is make small changes? I’ll do it.
The Rabbi is right, “There’s no such thing as a Chasid without a Rebbe.”January 11, 2024 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #2253004☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
the rebbe clearly said there wont be another rebbe
If that’s true, then this is is all his fault.January 11, 2024 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #2253012Yechi HamelechParticipant
Mod, don’t worry; nobody’s “keyed in” on ponevezh. It happens to be that, when bringing examples to compare with tzfatim, ponevezh is perfect. Both are people who care deeply about their respective causes, and both, unfortunately, have occasional spates of violence, usually an outgrowth of overzealous devotion to a cause. Everybody has extremistsJanuary 12, 2024 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #2253195
How many is several? Just asking
Dictionary definition: “More than two but not many.”
In this case: Three.
Not emesdik. Watch the video.
your intent was something else I don’texpect from you.
My intent in bringing up Ponevezh is not chas v’shalom just for the sake of bashing other Jews or saying lashon hara.
Unfortunately, human nature is that we are quick to notice faults in others while ignoring faults in ourselves. Therefore, many will rush to say that the entire Lubavitch movement is problematic due to the wild actions of some young people who consider themselves Lubavitch but don’t represent Lubavitch, while they completely ignore that their own community may suffer from the very same issue of the existence of wild, radical, violent groups of extremist young people.
The very fact that so many people were perfectly fine with the Lubavitch coverage, yet were so offended by my mentioning what happened in Ponevezh really proves this point.
Incorrect conclusion. “People” weren’t offended. You took a comment about something current and, instead of responding to it, shlepped in a past event of intense controversy to you as if there’s a connection/to make a connection. When there is current coverage of animalistic behavior of others, r”l, it is expected as it is current coverage.
This also answers the claim of the OP that this issue is specific to Lubavitch due to the “chasidus without a present rebbe”-status (so to speak), by pointing out that communities that don’t necessarily fit this narrative can suffer from the same issues.
I still don’t fully understand why people are so shocked by my insinuating that YWN would cover brawls in other Jewish sects, but covering Lubavitch doesn’t bother them.
P.S. I’m not necessarily pro publicizing these things. I’m just not understanding the seeming double standard.
Im not pro publicizing much at all –January 12, 2024 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #2253199follick2Participant
בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵ֔ם אֵ֥ין מֶ֖לֶךְ בְּיִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל אִ֛ישׁ הַיָּשָׁ֥ר בְּעֵינָ֖יו יַעֲשֶֹֽהJanuary 12, 2024 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #2253200
“There’s no such thing as a Chasid without a Rebbe.”
Let’s inverse this true statement.
I see plenty of Chassidim so there must be a Rebbe.January 14, 2024 12:29 am at 12:29 am #2253329
Not emesdik. Watch the video.
Indeed, I thought you were commenting on my mentioning that YWN posted “SEVERAL articles” (i.e. three articles). There were indeed more than three bochurim involved.
“People” weren’t offended.
I was referring to these commenters from the news articles:
My voice – “to attack another group in Klal Yisroel for no reason other then to make yourself look not so bad is absolutely despicable.”
Guteyid – @MenachemShmei It wasn’t 3 yrs ago and thats a disgusting thing to say.
These people seem quite offended. I don’t understand why it’s DISGUSTING or DESPICABLE to compare one horrific act by some violent youths to some other horrific acts by some violent youths which are actually quite similar in the nature of the events (other than that one was on a much larger scale and involving many more bochurim than the other…)
shlepped in a past event of intense controversy to you as if there’s a connection/to make a connection.
The OP tried to make a claim that these are unique problems of “a Chasidus without a present rebbe”.
The point of my response was:
1) To show that this is not necessarily unique to groups perceived as “chasidus without a present rebbe”.
2) To help give perspective to those who have a easy time finding חסרונות in others but not in themselves.
As I have explained at greater length in my previous post.January 14, 2024 4:05 am at 4:05 am #2253331ujmParticipant
Menachem, your point is well made.January 14, 2024 9:40 am at 9:40 am #2253342
Lostspark wrote: ‘“There’s no such thing as a Chasid without a Rebbe.”
Let’s inverse this true statement.
I see plenty of Chassidim so there must be a Rebbe.’
If that logic is true, then the original statement is meaningless because someone can always claim that he’s a chasid and that therefore perforce he has a rebbe somewhere somehow.January 14, 2024 9:40 am at 9:40 am #2253349
I was trying to hold myself back from responding (I was thinking of making a thread about your comments on the main but decided against it, I’m happy someone else started one and got you to respond
When Lubavitch paints themselves as “holier than thou” because they learn chassidus but then when they are called out for their bad behavior say “well you do it too” it doesn’t show how you are better
Case in point
You probably didn’t go onto the NY Post’s website and say the same thing
According to Lubavitch chassidus is the way so show it and don’t try to deflectJanuary 14, 2024 9:40 am at 9:40 am #2253399
Gadol > have at least TWO living Rebbes
Even better, have three, and make them not related to each other so that it will be a proper beis dinJanuary 14, 2024 11:30 am at 11:30 am #2253437
But don’t we claim the same thing about Yiddishkeit? Don’t we say that Torah makes a person more eidel, that a proper Jewish education should give someone better midos?
Respectfully, your taana sounds quite similar to the taana of the “chilonim” when something happens in the frum community at large: “The chreidim paint themselves as holier than thou because they learn Torah and keep mitzvos, yet…”
Of course, the answer to both taanos is: Our learning is supposed to affect us, and hopefully it does for many people. Is that to say that we don’t have a yetzer hara? Does Hashem take away our bechira chofshis to do something wrong?
Unfortunately, the media doesn’t have a shortage of times where someone who was considered a holy yerei shamayim committed terrible wrongdoings which are completely unbefitting of a ben Torah.
This is especially relevant in a case when many bochurim involved in such acts are indeed people who haven’t spent much of their time in yeshiva learning Torah, so it’s even more understandable that it didn’t have much of an effect on them.
And again, I wasn’t ch”v trying to JUSTIFY what happened by pointing out others who did it, two wrongs don’t make a right. I was trying to make two important points which I elaborated on above.January 14, 2024 11:30 am at 11:30 am #2253439
ujm, thanks!January 14, 2024 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #2253513
So you agree that litvish Torah learning is the same as Lubavitch learning chassidus?January 14, 2024 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #2253543KuvultParticipant
Lostspark & Arso,
You need to understand the organization of a Chasidus. In Eastern Europe (& elsewhere) Jews have always lived in groups that had the “In” group & the “Out” group. This was part of the outside world as well with a hierarchy. There were even different sets of laws based on position in life. For example, if a peasant killed a noble they’d be put to death but if a noble killed a peasant they’d have to pay the family $5,000. So here you have a new form of Judaism that says if you (& it was voluntary) join this group & are not the Rebbe than you (learned or not, rich or poor) were equal to everyone else that wasn’t the Rebbe. In the world of Eastern Europe this was huge. But as you see it only works if there’s a Rebbe who is the “In” group making everyone else the “Out” group.
Also, while not necessarily the plan of the early Chasidic leaders, the different sects developed into top down authoritarian orgs. This is most important in keeping a cohesive group. The Rebbe says “Give money to this tsedaka.” Everyone does. More important, The Rebbe says, “No one is sending their kids to the new govt public school.” No one does & in that pre-Stalin era there wasn’t much the govt could do. This power of passive resistance only worked because it was a singular cohesive group acting as one.
Bottom line, if you study Chasidic history you clearly see it only works with a Rebbe. There may be splits within a sect like Satmar but that’s different. No Chasid in KJ thinks they can expand the Shul or start a new school without the blessing of the Rebbe.January 15, 2024 1:04 am at 1:04 am #2253552GadolhadorahParticipant
Seems like Chabad has grown substantially in 30 years w/o a “Rebbe”. While there are these occasional hiccups, the absence of a successor doesn’t seem to have inhibited expansion in many new locations nor undermined its mosdos.January 15, 2024 1:04 am at 1:04 am #2253553
So you agree that litvish Torah learning is the same as Lubavitch learning chassidus?
Not exactly, but specifically in this context of sometimes one can learn and learn but it doesn’t have the desired effect on him – I think this does apply to both. Maybe on different levels, I’m not sureJanuary 15, 2024 1:04 am at 1:04 am #2253554
Telling your whole historical narrative to a chossid (at least a Chabad chossid – I can only talk for myself) is like a secular historian trying to convince a frum Yid about the “real way” that the Torah was composed by some random scholars…
We see the concept of a Rebbe from a chassidus perspective, so it takes on a whole different meaning.January 15, 2024 8:31 am at 8:31 am #2253563
Kuvult, I have no idea why you addressed this to me. I certainly believe that to be a chassid you need a live Rebbe, and my comment was to Lostspark on his trying to refute that.
Gadolhadorah, growth in numbers does not indicate growth in ruchniyus and the like. editedJanuary 15, 2024 9:20 am at 9:20 am #2253663Reb EliezerParticipant
How many Brreslover or Lubaviltcher chasidim do we need to light a candle? We cannot replace it as the previous one always burns better.January 15, 2024 9:25 am at 9:25 am #2253564CSParticipant
Just my two cents, The Rebbe gave us enough avoda to work on till Moshiach’s coming, and tasked our generation with bringing him. On 28 Nissan 5751, The Reeve said that the only reason he could see that Moshiach hasn’t come yet is because it needs to pass from being the Rebbe/ leader’s obsession with everyone following along, to the personal project and passion of every man woman and child, until someone gets it done.
As mentioned, The Rebbe set up a system of personal Mashpia/ Rav to discuss personal questions with, and all of us today find personal connection to The Rebbe in whatever form that takes (writing/ iggros/ Jen/ The Rebbes Torah/ niggunim etc)
So Lubavitch is definitely not leaderless, the center stage
is the regular people’s by design.
Just a fascinating note, I just learned L”S 11, p11, footnotes, (from 5729), that Moshiach will come when there’s achdus in the inyan of talking about Moshiach etc…
“And through the achdus of yidden, there will be achdus in the world in general. Achdus is like the inyan of Echad (vs. yochid-ED)- people will retain their different opinions but will be in a state of achdus.”
It seems like we’ve gotten a wake up call to pull this tether now, and it seems from the response that this is already happening BH.January 15, 2024 11:33 am at 11:33 am #2253684hujuParticipant
I asked a shliach who will be the current or next rebbe. He said it is us, all Jews, the observant and the not-yet observant.January 15, 2024 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #2253739
“Not exactly, but specifically in this context of sometimes one can learn and learn but it doesn’t have the desired effect on him – I think this does apply to both. Maybe on different levels, I’m not sure“
That’s the best non answer answer I have seen recentlyJanuary 15, 2024 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #2253704
“Telling your whole historical narrative to a chossid (at least a Chabad chossid – I can only talk for myself) is like a secular historian trying to convince a frum Yid about the “real way” that the Torah was composed by some random scholars…“
The Rebbe makes it clear in hayom yom how to be mekusher even after ג tammuz.
This is one of those cases where you have to be swimming it these particular waters to appreciate it, an outside understanding will only confuse you.January 15, 2024 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #2253736
> the center stage is the regular people’s by design.
> current or next rebbe. He said it is us, all Jews, the observant and the not-yet observant.
So turns out , most of us here were Chassidim to begin with. So it seems that L Rebbe decided that he educated his students enough to be self-responsible.January 15, 2024 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #2253766CSParticipant
“So turns out , most of us here were Chassidim to begin with.”
You’re a chossid if you accept the Rebbe as your own, but yah The Rebbe wanted every Jew to be a shliach in his own way.
“So it seems that L Rebbe decided that he educated his students enough to be self-responsible.”
Sort of. More like the Rebbe is inspiring and guiding but more backstage instead of taking front and Center stage. The advantage is that people actually internalize the Rebbes message and teachings and make it their own instead of just doing things automatically because The Rebbe said so, without it being their ownJanuary 16, 2024 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #2253967
Jews need leaders. Chabad has third hand accounts of what the Rebbe said 40 years ago. Who’s a well respected gadol within chabad today? Who’s the Rav of 770?
3rd hand? They do have his own writings.January 16, 2024 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #2253956my voiceParticipant
I’m not exactly sure where you saw in my response that I was offended, the fact that your behavior was rightfully called out doesn’t mean that I took any offense from your comment, I have no affiliation with ponevezh or it’s communities and I was responding as a member of Klal Yisroel who thought that your maligning a group of Jews on a public forum for selfish reasons was pretty disgusting.
And as far as your reasoning that you were trying to bring out that it’s not Lubavitch that was at fault, and every community has some misbehaving youth, your original post was on the article that was very clear that it didn’t have any issue with Lubavitch per se, and that those boys were in no way representative of the greater community, and despite that you felt a need, just in case it would somehow be misconstrued as a chillul Lubavitch, to immediately show how other Jews have the same problem. Additionally, your total lack of respect of people other than your own was shown again shortly afterwards, when you were rightfully criticizing the editors description of these boys as terrorists, you decided to describe the yerushalmi protesters as animals. While I agree their actions might not be correct, your callousness in refering to your fellow Jews is disgusting.January 16, 2024 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #2253801qwerty613Participant
The question that started this thread implies that a Chassidus is viable if it has a Rebbe. This, in itself, must be questioned, because it depends on the Rebbe In the case of Chabad, the Rebbe convinced his followers to become obsessed with his belief that he was(is) Moshiach, and this informs their very existence. On the other hand, if you had a Rebbe, like the Sfas Emes(my favorite) who made Torah study the sine qua non of life, I think the movement could go on quite well without a Rebbe.
EditedJanuary 16, 2024 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #22537872qwertyParticipant
I have 1 simple question for Lubavitch Chassidim. If Moshiach comes today but he isn’t the Rebbe, would you accept him?
I would prefer a straight Yes or No answers.January 16, 2024 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #2254151
NoJanuary 16, 2024 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #2254150
I’m not exactly sure where you saw in my response that I was offended
I’m sorry for assuming that.
your maligning a group of Jews on a public forum for selfish reasons was pretty disgusting.
Question: Do you feel that YWN’s reporting on the 770 tunnels was also maligning a group of Jews on a public forum and therefore pretty disgusting?
If not, why is reporting on the Ponevezh brawl in 5781 any different?
If yes, why didn’t you comment on the entire YWN article instead of focusing on a single commenter?
the article that was very clear that it didn’t have any issue with Lubavitch per se, and that those boys were in no way representative of the greater community, and despite that you felt a need, just in case it would somehow be misconstrued as a chillul Lubavitch, to immediately show how other Jews have the same problem.
And it’s quite apparent from the existence of this thread that it was indeed seen as representative of issues in Lubavitch as a whole, which is why I feel that my comment was necessary, as I elaborated on in earlier posts (people find faults in others but not in themselves, etc.).
I want to clarify again that I’m not ch”v looking to condemn other communities, rather point to a greater issue that we must all deal with together.
when you were rightfully criticizing the editors description of these boys as terrorists, you decided to describe the yerushalmi protesters as animals
My intention was not at all to start calling Jews names. It was purely a play on words from the nusach used by YWN:
They compared the bochurim to “animals in Gaza” so I was saying (slightly sarcastically) that even if they want to use a derogatory term for these bochurim, it should be comparing them to other violent protestors in the Jewish community, not Hamas terrorists who killed Jews. My using the word “animals” about violent protestors was purely to emphasize how I was borrowing YWN’s nusach.January 16, 2024 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #2254173follick2Participant
<blockquote cite=”I have 1 simple question for Lubavitch Chassidim. If Moshiach comes today but he isn’t the Rebbe, would you accept him?
I would prefer a straight Yes or No answers.”>
yes, of courseJanuary 17, 2024 8:22 am at 8:22 am #2254214
qwerty: “The question that started this thread implies that a Chassidus is viable if it has a Rebbe…. if you had a Rebbe, like the Sfas Emes(my favorite) who made Torah study the sine qua non of life, I think the movement could go on quite well without a Rebbe.”
It seems that you don’t realize that “a chassidus” is not the same as “a movement”. While a chassidus is ALSO ‘a movement’ it is far more than that, as the former requires a rebbe while the latter does not.
- The topic ‘A Chasidus without a present Rebbe’ is closed to new replies.