A third of Litvish families I know, have one or more single daughters 25 and up

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  • #908930
    Health
    Participant

    GAW – “want to have a family should pair up (as friends of course,”

    I don’t think this would be Mutter. Do you have any Rabbi/Rov that holds this way?

    #908931
    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    Pac-Man-

    Did you see what just happened- I quoted what a friend of his told me and all these years of hard work building up a reputation went down the drain because he says it’s not true!

    Now you know why I stay away from controversial threads?

    #908933
    Pac-Man
    Member

    Dr. P.:

    I totally sympathize with you. I’ve had the exact same experience here!

    Next thing you know, you will be me.

    #908934

    your reputation went down the drain because someone you know gave you bad information?

    it didnt drop one iota by me.

    #908935

    wait…..you mean hes not you?

    #908936
    Pac-Man
    Member

    Do you wanna change that Ph.D. to Joseph? It’s much more popular here.

    #908937
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    GAW – “want to have a family should pair up (as friends of course,”

    I don’t think this would be Mutter. Do you have any Rabbi/Rov that holds this way?

    That was an angle I was not thinking about. There might be Morris Ayin? The whole issur (for girls) probably (as per the Rambam) isn’t even a D’Rabannan, so that would not be an issue.

    If that was not your angle, please tell me why you think it would be assur.

    #908938
    Dr. Pepper
    Participant

    AZ-

    You know what your ideology is and I’m not bringing it up anymore. I’ve tried to discuss it with you in a civilized manner but you refused.

    Before NASI had a website you used to say over and over again that NASI has the backing of over 70 Gedolim, but you never mentioned who they are. You directed me to look at the ad they placed in the Yated which raised more questions (not a single human name was mentioned in the ad, just an address to send $50 to).

    I went to speak to my Rosh Hayeshiva about the organization to see if he was one of the 70 Gedolim who gave his endorsement. He wasn’t there at the time but I asked a talmud who is close to him if he signed the letter. He told me that you asked him to but he refused.

    When I asked him some more questions he pointed to a person who he said you were schmoozing with during your visit and suggested that he may be able to provide some more information.

    This person claimed to know you although he didn’t know that you’re AZ from YWN. (I mentioned that he’s your friend because you went over to schmooze with him, I never said he’s a close friend.) He’s the one that told me that you claim to know everything from A to Z.

    I try very hard to always have factual information. If something is my opinion, I try to state it. Things I hear from others I make sure to mention that I heard it from someone else (unfortunately I can’t mention who for obvious reasons).

    In my opinion it’s ludicrous to discredit a poster based on a quote he heard from someone else which you claim is inaccurate.

    #908939
    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Maybe we can set up a time and place and brainstorm shidduchim and share possibilities. serious people only.

    #908940
    Ofcourse
    Member

    RABBAIM, Maybe we can set up a time and place and brainstorm shidduchim and share possibilities. serious people only.

    What solution can there possibly be for single girls, approaching 30 and beyond, whose numbers are way way larger than single guys who are age-appropriate for them?

    #908941
    Pac-Man
    Member

    Ofcourse: Why do you keep asking that? What AZ has been saying is quite clear. There is NO SOLUTION possible to get all the current girls married. Period. End of discussion.

    To quote AZ’s comment from the previous page:

    “Is it possible for all of them… i’d rather not answer that question- It’s simply too painful.”

    #908942
    missfrizzle
    Member

    Where do we learn that a bas kol comes down 40 days before a child is born and says who the shidduch is? But if that is true, than anyone who says there are not enough men/women is basically calling Hashem a liar. I know a lot of single girls who are over the age of 25 who are going on dates left and right. So the statement of not enough is false. Why they say no to the guy is a different story, and good luck to them. But I don’t for one second doubt that Hashem has it all prepared for us, not only in terms of shidduchim but EVERYTHING! Hishtadlus is of course important, but if you think that what you do makes a difference, you are crazy! Its All Hashem, JUST DAVEN! That is really all we can do. And daven for each other. Don’t ever lose faith, The One Above is watching over all of us, and He will take care of us. Baruch Hashem every day!

    #908943
    AZ
    Participant

    It seems to be ovbious that pacman is joseph and as for my identity it’s not even a secret.

    so NO Pacman is not AZ. Joseph is just playing his joseph games.

    #908944
    AZ
    Participant

    Of course: for starters lets make sure that five years from now the problem is far smaller than it is now as opposed to having it be far greater..

    #908945
    AZ
    Participant

    Dr. Pepper:

    sorry just saw your post now.

    The letter with the names of the 70 R”Y who signed has been published again and again. I’d be happy to send you a copy of the original letter. If there is any way for me to email it to you or to YWN editors and for them to send to you i’d be happy to do so. Feel free to send a email to @gmail.com">NASIShiddcuch@gmail.com and they’ll send you the original letter as well. I’m not sure what else i can offer.

    with regards to ideology, i apologize, but i don’t remeber your previous attempts at dialogue. I’m not denying, I simply don’t remeber. Feel free to remind me.

    With regards to R”Y who didn’t sign.

    A. I didn’t approach the R”Y myself so it wasn’t me. More importantly, To the best of my knowledge the only two R”Y who where approached and didn’t sign (Rav Chaim Epstein and Rav Meir Stern) BOTH strongly encouraged the efforts to close the age gap, but they declined to put their name on the letter for personal reasons, NOT as a lack of support of the efforts or the attempts to encourage close in age shidduchim.

    #908946
    Tzvi Hirsh
    Member

    These girls should consider moving to Israel where there are many Men 30 years and older that are looking for their zivug.

    Many of these fine religious men did not get married because their families could not afford 1/2 the price of an apartment as is the custom is here.

    There are also many very fine religious English speaking B.T., divorced and widowed men here as well for woman of all ages, or levels of observance or Groups (Litvish, Chasidic or Sefardic)

    It is not neccessary for any Jewish religious girl or women of any age or background to remain single if they are willing to expand their options and not box themselves in.

    Mishanah hamakom, mishanah HaMAZAL.

    #908948
    mdd
    Member

    Gavra-at-work, you are so mistaken. It is definitely assur for girls min’HaTorah. There is no malkus, however, as it is a lav she’be’klalus.

    To get married for girls civilly (without doing anything) would be a major Chilul Shem Shamaim.

    #908949
    Ofcourse
    Member

    AZ Of course: for starters lets make sure that five years from now the problem is far smaller than it is now as opposed to having it be far greater..

    Halevei! If only everyone felt the gravity of this problem, as you do. Otherwise, ch”v we could be bringing upon ourselves a Magaifa of many defectors from frumkeit.

    #908950
    haifagirl
    Participant

    Gavra-at-work, you are so mistaken. It is definitely assur for girls min’HaTorah. There is no malkus, however, as it is a lav she’be’klalus.

    To get married for girls civilly (without doing anything) would be a major Chilul Shem Shamaim.

    There is a problem with a girl having a roommate? That’s news to me. It’s probably also news to many (all?) seminaries.

    If you ignore the part about other legal stuff (which was parenthetical anyway), that’s what he is suggesting. Two girls become roommates. They each adopt a child. They each have a built-in babysitter.

    Who (other than you) said anything about getting married civilly?

    #908951
    Ofcourse
    Member

    haifa Two girls become roommates. They each adopt a child. They each have a built-in babysitter.

    1- What about the child(ren) not having a live-in male role model issue?

    2- What about male companionship that the girls might desire at some point?

    Somehow the thought doesnt sit right with me. Either we do our utmost to make adjustments to fix the problem for the future (because for the girls who are already older it seems its too late) or we end up having heartbroken Jewish women living like nuns, who are expected to stay frum even though with the best of intentions, frumkeit hasnt worked for them because within frumkeit they havent been able to achieve their goals and they see that the frum hierarchy hasnt done much to help them out of their misery, either due to lack of power or lack of effort. Not good.

    In the years of WW2, American govt. officials and others were despised, and still are, because they sat by while European Jews were being gassed. When they were unaware, they couldnt be blamed. Once they were clearly made aware, they should have bombed the railway stations leading to the crematoriums, etc. Not exactly the same, but there are at least vague similarities.

    When you dont know, you dont know, when you do, you do and sufficient analysis, planning and action is expected.

    It’s only European Jews…..it’s only a small percentage of frum women who are unable to marry…..it’s bashert…. there’s not much that can be done…..these excuses dont cut it.

    #908952
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Whether you are making shidduchim for money, for the mitzvah or because you like people hounding you at all hours of the day, your job is hindered by the fact that many who you work with have no clue what they are looking for. They use nice adjectives like “baalas middos, masmid, tzanua, has a personality”, but have no idea what they really mean. They are following the herd mentality of going to hich school a, seminary b, shadchan c, to look for a shidduch from among the bachurim in yeshiva d.

    #908953
    Ofcourse
    Member

    I want to add to my previous post that Im especially in awe of one Gadol I believe it to be R’ Chaim Stein, who at his son’s levaya brought up the plight of older single girls. If that doesnt show us the significance, what does?

    #908954
    golden mom
    Member

    If u ever “ret” a shidduch and hear the questions being asked ..then u would understand everything! Before u hear anything about the girl its right away how skinny is she what size clothing is she (like she will stay thaT size all her life) we need a picture… Are we trying to find a wife or a model for a magazine

    And that’s just the tip of it …such crazy questions

    #908955
    golden mom
    Member

    I am hearing more and more of “older” single girls marrying widowers with kids and I aplad them but too many in the litvish world would not hear of going out w some body who waS married bf even I’d no kids its crazy to just turn down u never know who your beshert is

    #908956
    gregaaron
    Member

    @Gavra & Haifagirl-

    Whether or not it would be assur to do such a thing, it would be condeming any child brought into that “family” to a life of misery – both at home, and socially (somehow I don’t think that the kid’s classmates would see that family as a usual situation, and (s)he would be easy fodder for taunting).

    #908957

    Correction-

    I agree with you 100%. I dont see what this thread is supposed to accomplish besides for sucking out every last bit of hope from girls who are still single

    Yummy cupcake and Miss Frizzle- Couldnt have said it better myself!

    To everyone else- Shame on you for putting fear and dread into these girls already broken hearts

    #908958

    “There is NO SOLUTION possible to get all the current girls married. Period. End of discussion.”

    Joseph- Do you or do you not agree that Hashem can do the impossible?

    Hashem is mizaveg zivugim. Period. End of discussion.

    #908959
    Ofcourse
    Member

    whatr, I dont see what this thread is supposed to accomplish besides for sucking out every last bit of hope from girls who are still single

    It is not pleasant, thats for sure. But them knowing that there isnt a major serious attempt made to prevent the problem from reoccuring, the almost apathy and acceptance, is casting a negative light on the hierarchy, which is worse yet.

    #908960
    shein
    Member

    Ofcourse: I don’t understand your comments. Frumkeit is not a choice that a girl can discard because it hasn’t worked out for her or she is c”v unable to marry.

    #908961
    morahmom
    Participant

    We can’t lose sight of the fact that for the Ribbono Shel Olam, there is no “shidduch crisis”. Some girls (and guys) have the nisayon of having to wait longer than their friends to find their zivug. Some couples have nisyonos with fertility, others with parnossa. We certainly have to be mishtadel on behalf of everyone, but I’m guessing our most powerful tool is the age old “vitamin T” – tefilah and tehillim.

    #908962
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Do you or do you not agree that Hashem can do the impossible?

    Hashem is mizaveg zivugim. Period. End of discussion.

    Ein somchin al hanes.

    #908963

    Unfortunately, the 25+ situation is common in the Chassidishe crowd as well. The bottom denominator is very often money. The Rosh Yeshiva in our group whose daughter just got engaged at 23 B”H, when asked what the story was, we were told that most boys want at least support of $1,000 a month to which he replied he does not have and won’t lie, when a shaddchan suggested that he lie and after 2 months say he can’t. I know of 26+ girls who already own a house(no mortgage) and earn enough to support a family but many boys(actually it is usually the parent(s)) want the support to come from the parents!

    About girls marrying widowers, it is happening in all circles. These girls are very special as the ones that i know who did it are doing a great job. The most recent is a shidduch of a 26 year old engaged to her brother in law, a widower of her sister A”H. Who are we to understand the ways of Hashem!?!?!?!?

    #908964
    shein
    Member

    Ein somchin al hanes.

    The discussion you are quoting relates to the situation of the current generation of girls, with the contention being made that there is no longer any possible solution that they will all be able to find a shidduch.

    How does saying “Ein somchin al hanes” address that point? The point was there is no natural solution possible. So what else can we do other than, in fact, hope for a nes?

    #908965
    AZ
    Participant

    We can continute to work very hard at closing the age gap/enocuraging close in age shidduchim etc. as this has a direct trickle up effect on the helping the older girls as well.

    Can it help everyone, who knows? Can it help some – even many- DEFINATELY!. Therefore we MUST do whatever we can (with guidance from gedolim).

    Even if we can’t help everyone that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do as much as we can!!! For these girls the time is NOW. Every week month that goes by it gets harder and harder.

    Now I’d like to ask a question of all CR members:

    what have YOU done today, this week, this month, this year, to alleviate the situation (other than post in the CR).

    #908966
    shein
    Member

    what have YOU done today, this week, this month, this year, to alleviate the situation

    I married a girl.

    #908967
    Health
    Participant

    AZ – Get a 40 y.o. guy to marry a 40 y.o. woman -how many do you think will agree with this?

    #908968
    hanib
    Participant

    is your math counting all of the divorced men, widowed men, and ba’alei teshuvah?

    there are many, many reasons why girls are not married (as well as why boys are not married), and i feel az is addressing probably one of the most insignificant ones. However, if it gets people to think about the single girls and set them up, then at least it is doing some good. Yes, all of the gedolim care about the plight of the tons of single boys and girls, it’s the method of fixing the problem that they may or may not agree upon.

    #908969
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The discussion you are quoting relates to the situation of the current generation of girls

    To me, the phrase “Hashem is mizaveg zivugim. Period. End of discussion.” is denying the imperative to do hidhtadlus to alleviate the problem. This is what I was addressing.

    #908970
    shein
    Member

    Again, the discussion was of the the problem relating to the *current* generation of older girls. We are being told that *there is no solution*. So what else is there but a nes, for *all* the *current* girls to get married?

    #908971
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Maskim (except maybe many new male baalei teshuvah).

    #908972
    shein
    Member

    There are more of those than new female b”t?

    #908973
    Health
    Participant

    Haifagirl -“If you ignore the part about other legal stuff (which was parenthetical anyway), that’s what he is suggesting. Two girls become roommates. They each adopt a child. They each have a built-in babysitter.”

    The S’A says two women together (Toeiva) is either Ossur M’drabbanim or D’orysa. The S’A also says that two men can be Meyached together -be roomates because Jews aren’t Chosut (accuse)on Toieva. This would be the same for two women. Once you go beyond the boundry of two people just being roomates, like for example this case, two women acting as parents, even if right now they aren’t doing anything Ossur, I see no reason how Yichud would be Mutter. You are putting two people in a entirely different situation than roomates, they are having a very intimate relationship -raising a child together. This would definitely be Ossur because of Yichud!

    #908974
    klach
    Member

    The halachic genius expressed in this thread is astounding!!!

    #908975
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There are more of those than new female b”t?

    No, but if it happened, it wouldn’t be a nes (or at least not as big a nes as a bunch of single “FFBs” suddenly appearing out of nowhere).

    #908976
    shein
    Member

    So, DY, in your humble opinion, considering that you feel that there is no way (short of a neis) that all the current older single girls can all get married… what will be with them?

    #908977

    “Ein somchin al hanes.”

    “To me, the phrase “Hashem is mizaveg zivugim. Period. End of discussion.” is denying the imperative to do hidhtadlus to alleviate the problem. This is what I was addressing. “

    I did not say that we shouldnt do hishtadlus and everything in our power to help these girls. All I said was that you can not make a blanket statement like that and say its impossible for these girls to get married.

    We are mechuyav to have emunah that Hashem is all powerful and can do anything

    #908978
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I redt a 26 year old female to a 24 year old male. She responded “I’m not a cradle snatcher”.its not as simple as setting up “close in age shidduchim” to alleviate the “crisis”. The underlying social expectations as it relates to shidduchim needs a major overhaul. The idea that families must go into hock in order to secure shidduchim for their children is absurd. The notion that everyone must “sit and learn” and demands a shidduch that allows him to do so is quite frankly retarded. The idea that proper hishtadlus for parnassah is signing up for government programs (a neighbor of mine went out with a fellow last night who expressed this plan for hishtadlus) is frightening. Shidduch crisis? Social expectations have reached ridiculous proportions.

    #908979
    hanib
    Participant

    work on one single at a time: find out if they’re ready to get married, what they’re looking for, and help them find their proper match. keep doing this – this is hishtadlus. don’t worry about the math – that’s krias yam suf – that’s Hashem’s department. keep davening for the singles and keep setting them up with appropriate matches.

    (and raise children who are emotionally healthy who desire and know how to establish relationships and know how to build a bayis neeman b’yisrael).

    for any singles out there reading this thread: relax. daven. do your hishtadlus and work on your bitachon. Hashem will help you! Ignore all these doomsayers.

    #908980
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    what will be with them?

    Do I know? Am I (or did I ever claim to be) a navi?

    Al pi teva, some will get married, and some won’t.

    Does anybody have a better answer than that?

    And if someone answers that every single girl (take that with both meanings) will get married, I ask: was there ever any person who ever did not get married in their lifetime?

    #908981
    shein
    Member

    So if any older unmarried boy (or even male divorcee or widower) wants to get married, he should not have much problem, since there are more available girls than boys could ever marry.

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