June 28, 2011 6:25 am at 6:25 am #909035
dr. pepper – you’re right that it’s not gonna change anything, but we’d like to hear your opinion also.June 28, 2011 6:59 am at 6:59 am #909036RealisticguyParticipant
mdd: the misconception most of you have is that you think someone has to sit in kollel to be a talmid chacham what you dont realize is that kollel is a relatively new concept introduced within the last 100 yrs the chofetz chaim had a store he was a business man….you dont need to sit and learn all day to be a talmid chacham it just needs to be a priority of your time when you are not taking care of your life obligations of supporting and raising your family. obviously its not really working out so maybe its time to go back to the old. I am not saying that people shouldnt sit and learn if they are able but if for one second their wanting to sit and learn should become an unwanted(very important word here) Burden on anyone I dont beleive for one second its merited.June 28, 2011 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #909037haifagirlParticipant
sorry guys – no girl will go for polygamy. marriage is hard enough with one husband and one wife.
I would rather share a husband than not have one at all.June 28, 2011 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #909038Yoin from BPMember
My younger sister became a yesoimoh (orphan) at 15 and acted quite immature. When she was 19, the Skverer Rebbe (New Square) asked me ‘and what about shidduchim’ for her. I explained that in my opinion, she was too immature to get married just yet. He responded ‘She will mature under the Chuppa’.
And so it was. She really did mature ‘under the chuppa’ at 20 and built a beautiful family of bnei and b’nos Torah.
My 2 cents: Girls (parents) should seriously start with shidduchim at 18 barring extraordinary circumstances, and in any case discuss with g’dolei and manhigei Yisroel how to proceed.June 28, 2011 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #909040
binahyeseira – “sorry guys – no girl will go for polygamy. marriage is hard enough with one husband and one wife.”
True, in Western society it would be next to impossible to impose this on women. But you should know in the Middle Eastern society it occurs right now, not to common, but it exists. Middle Eastern doesn’t include E. Yisroel, which is a Western society. I know s/o from Iran (Frum) whose father has two wives and he has families from both and they each have separate houses. And people here in the CR (in the Immoral marriage topic) actually claim who cares what goyim do, we don’t have anything to do with them.
We are so influenced by goyim -you can’t imagine how much. The avg. Jewish woman here in our society could never imagine letting their husband be married to s/o else! Why? Because it’s against the Goyishe society.June 28, 2011 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #909041MonseyFanMember
#Health “The avg. Jewish woman here in our society could never imagine letting their husband be married to s/o else! Why? Because it’s against the Goyishe society. ”
I think Rabbenu Gershon would disagree.June 28, 2011 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #909042
Health, The avg. Jewish woman here in our society could never imagine letting their husband be married to s/o else! Why? Because it’s against the Goyishe society.
Am I wrong or right that if polygamy were ever permitted in our community (theres a chance of 1 out of infinity ;)), the rich guys would have harems with hundreds of wives and the poor guys wouldnt have one! Hee hee.June 28, 2011 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #909043
MonseyFan – Why would he disagree?June 28, 2011 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #909044
I’m not sure which letter you are qouting. The letter I posted earlier from 70 R”Y made 3 very clear points
1. the primary cause of the shidduch crisis is age gap
2. They called upon the community to give preference to close in age shidduchim and at the very least to give preference to girls who are age 20 and up.
3. They called upon the shadchanim to focus on close in age shidduchim and at the very least to give preference to girls 20 and up.
as such, your statement “the RY did not say anything other than that “close in age” shidduchim are a good thing” is simply not accurate.
Important post script: it is neither, my data, my analysis, nor my conclusions. Please don’t give me credit that’s not due.June 28, 2011 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #909045
Ofcourse – This is nothing new -Shlomah Hamelech had a 1,000 wives. The poor people would still get married because not like in our society were women will stay single, until they get what they Want, in those times women wanted to get married. So all the women whom the Kings and nobility don’t want will marry e/o else including the paupers or serfs! But keep dreaming that one day you’ll be a Queen living in a palace!June 28, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #909046
why aren’t the Lakewood rabbeim insisting that guys only date girls within a certain age range?
Because they prefer to recommend, rather than insist; why make a “gezeira” which many won’t follow (they’re not Chaza”l to make a gezeira anyway).June 28, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #909047
what you dont realize is that kollel is a relatively new concept introduced within the last 100 yrs
By whom do you think it was introduced, and why?June 28, 2011 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #909048MonseyFanMember
#health — I don’t think that Rabbenu Gershon was influenced by the goyishe societyJune 28, 2011 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #909049
MonseyFan – I never said he was. I said e/o, including all the women nowadays are influenced by the Goyishe society.June 28, 2011 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #909050
Yoin My 2 cents: Girls (parents) should seriously start with shidduchim at 18 barring extraordinary circumstances, and in any case discuss with g’dolei and manhigei Yisroel how to proceed.
Chassidishe parents generally do start at 18/19. The problem doesnt apply to the Chassidishe oilem, whose girls marry quickly.
Litvishe dont because the guys mothers generallly speaking (outside of Roshei Yeshiva families) want a girl who has completed her education and who brings in a nice salary. This is possibly part of the problem. They become desirable at 20/21 and old at 24/25.June 28, 2011 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #909051
“the guys mothers generallly speaking (outside of Roshei Yeshiva families) want”
This statement is a major contributing factor to all problems. Who cares what the mothers want, it is what the guys want that matters (or should). Bypass the mothers and you will see many more shidduchim. My personal policy when redting a shidduch is speak to the guy/gal directly and I try to avoid the mothers at all times. They are the single greatest hinderance to any shidduch.June 28, 2011 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #909052
Of Course: incorrect.
Litvishe girls starting (“becoming desirbable”) at 20/21 would be the solution, not the problem. Girls starting at 18 – that is the problem.
To be clear. I am NOT advocating/asking/instructing the girls to wait, i’m simply making a observation.June 28, 2011 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #909053
AZ, Girls starting at 18 – that is the problem.
How many Litvishe girls start dating at 18? Of the minute percentage who do, maybe one out of 100 get engaged at 18. At most.June 28, 2011 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #909054Pac / ManMember
AZ: it’s only a problem if the boys don’t start at 18 also. If they do, then there is no problem.June 28, 2011 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #909055RealisticguyParticipant
daasyochid…I am not 100% but i believe it was started after the war to get the generation started again in yidishkeit not sure when the rabanim inacted the idea they thought it would end up like this….keep in mind large mainstream frum societies have been wrong before I beleive the netziv writes that the beis hamikdosh was destroyed because people werent making a bracha before learning he goes on to explain this was not because they werent talmid cachim but rather because they lost sight of what the learning was actually for …they were putting it in front of everything else while learning is important it doesnt come before DERECH ERETZ…it is not far fetched to say the same thing here even though we have a large consensus that believes one way they might actually be wrong…and I think most of you missed the biggest point here which rings very true in which haifa girls says ” I would rather share a husband then have none at all” and monsey fan the point that started this was the the takanah was for 2000 years and thats over maybe theres a reason it ended think about itJune 28, 2011 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #909056charliehallParticipant
“Take the girls up to YU. Lots of available single males, all shomrei torah umitzvos.”
I suggested this to the mom of an unmarried yeshivish young woman. Mom didn’t have a problem with it, but the young woman herself rejected it out of hand, as she had been brainwashed into thinking that YU is treif.
“Besides isnt that illegal in the US? (not that it cant change at the rate we’re going…)”
It is indeed illegal but there hasn’t been a prosecution for it in decades.
“The basis of the age gap theory is about as statistically sound as charliehall’s quote about Medicare overhead being 1/5th that of private insurance. “
Sorry, but it is a fact.
And it is also a fact that as long as equal numbers of boys and girls are born each year, an increasing population means that girls will have to accept younger husbands if they are ever going to get married.
“Girls (parents) should seriously start with shidduchim at 18 barring extraordinary circumstances, and in any case discuss with g’dolei and manhigei Yisroel how to proceed.”
Boys, too — at least according to the Mishnah.June 28, 2011 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #909057
I am not 100% but i believe it was started after the war
The Chofetz Chaim had his famouds Kollel Kodshim before the war.June 28, 2011 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #909058
If 18 years old guys starting dating we would have a divorce crisis.
The reason the takana ended after 2000 years, is because it was a takana for 2000 years (so they say).
Rabbeinu Gershom was certainly not influenced by western society.June 29, 2011 12:36 am at 12:36 am #909059popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Take the girls up to YU. Lots of available single males, all shomrei torah umitzvos.
What makes anyone think that YU guys want to marry yeshivish girls?June 29, 2011 1:26 am at 1:26 am #909060
They want to marry girls who are shomrei torah umitzvos.June 29, 2011 1:31 am at 1:31 am #909061popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Is that their only “want”, or do they also want someone who is looking to raise the same kind of family, and send their kids to the same type of schools?
Who are you kidding?June 29, 2011 1:43 am at 1:43 am #909062Midwest2Participant
What we have here is a common sense gap.
Fact: There are slightly more boys born than girls. Boys are more fragile medically, so in societies where there is poor health care the ratio at adulthood is basically 1 to 1. In societies like ours with better health care those “extra” boys survive, so there are slightly more adult men than women until late middle age, when men have more heart attacks, etc., and the ratio goes down.
So what are we doing wrong? Some possibilities
1. It’s pretty obvious that if boys start dating at 22 and girls at 19 there are always going to be two years’ worth of girls unmarried.
2. The consumer mentality has taken hold – “Only the best is good enough for my son” which is actually “Only the best is good enough for ME.” It also leads to an unrealistic feeling of entitlement on the part of the boy, which doesn’t help the marriage to work out.
3. The emphasis on money so that the boy – whatever his own talents and wishes – should continue learning indefinitely – is leading to a real inversion of our values.
4. While there are also girls going off the derech, most of those OTD in the early ’20s are boys, amking things even more imbalanced.
5. It’s possible that some single girls are staying single because they consciously (or more likely, unconsciously) don’t want to end up in the “Wonder-woman” syndrome trap – working, having a baby every two years, taking care of the house and putting together fabulous yon-tov menus, and going from one day to the next feeling exhausted, with no end in sight, while the husband either sits and learns or works at some unskilled job which is all he can get because he has no secular education.
While I don’t have any solutions that are workable in our current state of mind, I can make one prediction: as the generation of “older girls” continues to get older, we are going to have a new wave of dropouts – not boys who can’t fit into yeshiva but girls who aren’t allowed to fit into the “wife-mother” role because they haven’t been allowed to. Then, we will have some very bitter souls who rightfully blame us and transfer that blame to Torah life in general. And many, of course, will drop out quietly, perhaps (hopefully) eventually marrying those boys who dropped out ten years before.
Whatever happens, we’re in big trouble. The RYs at BMG and the other BH yeshivas need to do a din v’cheshbon on our social situation, and show some leadership. If the Gedolim after the war could virtually invent the modern yeshiva, surely their grandsons can invent the tikkunim needed to adapt it to the current situation of frumkeit in the US.June 29, 2011 2:28 am at 2:28 am #909063mddMember
Realsticguy, you have a misconception. Gedolei Torah, great Talmidei Chachomim of previous generations spent years in full-time learning to become what they were. It is stated in Early Achronim that had all potential Talmidei Chachomim had not been able to get financial support to learn and had to work, all Torah would have been forgotten from Klal Yisroel (c^v). It is plainly obvious that to become a real Talmid Chocham you need years of full time study (I don’t mean people who get s’micha for Basar be’Cholov and Ta’aruvos).
Chofets Chaim spent little time in his store(his wife did). And in his young years — I think, none.June 29, 2011 2:38 am at 2:38 am #909064mddMember
Da’as Yochid. the Shulchan Aruch does not pasken like Kiddushin 82. Look in O. Ch. 156. Achronim explain that Kiddushin 82 was meant for yechidei segula.June 29, 2011 3:15 am at 3:15 am #909065
Oomis said “ALL”.June 29, 2011 11:51 am at 11:51 am #909066
PBA. I think your comments are made in light of preconcieved notions and biases. My comments are especially true for girls dating 2-3 years whose pie in the sky dreams and hashkafos foisted upon them by seminaries have worn off.June 29, 2011 11:52 am at 11:52 am #909067
why aren’t the Lakewood rabbeim insisting that guys only date girls within a certain age range?
Because they prefer to recommend, rather than insist; why make a “gezeira” which many won’t follow (they’re not Chaza”l to make a gezeira anyway).
Where have the R”Y in Lakewood made a recommendation that guys only date girls within their age range?? I’ve never seen them recommend this.June 29, 2011 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #909068
Pac: correct and thus if you are succesful in overhauling the livtvishe yeshiva system to have the boys begin dating at 20 – more power to you. (I am neither agreeing or disagreeing as to whether that would be a good idea, and truth be told my opinion is really ireelevant as that’s for the leaders of the generation to decide and implement. I’m simply pointing out the obvious, that it would greatly alleviate the age gap problem.)
I for one prefer to work with attainable solutions which is why I’m such a big fan of what the NASI project has been doing over the last few years.
Nothing radical – just slowly but surely encouraging close in age shidduchim. Slowly but surely generating more attention for the girls who didn’t just start dating. and coming soon – The boys starting to date slightly younger.
Of Course: of course you are correct 🙂 I was simply re-stating your point. But the girls do start at 19 and many get married then or very early 20.June 29, 2011 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #909069
AZ: You don’t object to girls marrying at 18 – 19, do you?June 29, 2011 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #909071tzippiMember
To realistic guy: here are three words that will close the Moebus strip of endless discussion – Chemotherapy as Metaphor.June 29, 2011 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #909072
shein: as I have said before.
To be clear. I am NOT advocating/asking/instructing the girls to wait, i’m simply making a observation.
(side point, the R”Y in lakewood all signed on the letter i posted earlier so i guess they do encourage boys to date girls close to their own age)June 29, 2011 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #909073minyan galMember
Let me preface my remarks by saying that, of course, I am not very familiar with the “shidduch” system. Even the frum people that I know found their mates on their own. So, what I have to say are simply opinions that I have made from reading this, and other threads in the CR.
OfCourse – you said:”Litvishe dont because the guys mothers generallly speaking (outside of Roshei Yeshiva families) want a girl who has completed her education and who brings in a nice salary. This is possibly part of the problem. They become desirable at 20/21 and old at 24/25.”
To me, it seems that 6 months or a year at a seminary, does not an education make. Yes, the girls get well educated in frumkeit and running a wonderful home. This does not make them good “job” material. They have no qualifications to obtain an extremely well paying job that can maintain a household, pay tuitions, etc. in order for their husbands to learn full time. The only way that they can become good earners is by getting some type of professional designation. Of course, to do that they must remain in school for a few more years which apparently puts them past the prime marriage age. It seems that this issue is like a hamster on a wheel – getting nowhere because you cannot please everyone. If it pleases a boy, his wife and family (who need to kick in with some support money), then why should anyone have any objections to how long the boy studies full time. The only problem that I see is the fact that they can study for years and years and in the end, they still aren’t qualified wage earners (for the most part). Again, the hamster on the wheel or a dog chasing his tail. That is all that I have to say for now. Please, feel free to criticize – I am sure many of you will, but this is my take on the subject – and on this topic, I really am an outsider looking in.June 29, 2011 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #909074
Signing a letter does not equal encouraging anyone to do anything. Encouraging someone to do something is when you go into them for advise, they advise you to take this course of action. My RY is signed onto the “letter”, and (I have not spoken to all his talmidim, true) he does not encourage this course of action, at all.
When I call him to discuss potential shidduchim in the yeshiva for girls my wife knows, he does not look at age or anything the letter encourages. If he believes the appropriate match for this 20 yr old girl is a 25 yr old bachur, he says so, the same way if he felt a 20 yr old was the most suitable match.June 29, 2011 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #909075gavra_at_workParticipant
minyan gal: A critical point that you are not considering is that many of these people looking to get married have no interest in ever supporting themselves. Their end plan is support from government, Shver and their community (in the form of tuition assistance). It make it much easier for a boy to want to sit and learn when that is the plan.
Nice just means something above zero, but still low enough to qualify for government health benefits and tuition discounts. These mothers don’t want their sons marrying doctor/lawyer types, who will be able to support their family.June 29, 2011 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #909076
Why did your R”Y sign it, if he doesn’t believe in doing what he signed asking people to do?June 29, 2011 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #909077
Minyan Yes, the girls get well educated in frumkeit and running a wonderful home. This does not make them good “job” material.
Of course not! Im not talking Seminary grads at 21. They complete seminary at 18! We’re talking grads with various degrees such as sepecial ed or accounting, or on their way to Masters in the therapies.June 29, 2011 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #909078on the ballParticipant
Maybe I’m over-simplifying things but I think the main reason for the shidduch crisis is people being too fussy. We live at a time when all our consumer demands can be met to perfection or very close – we want the same for our spouses.June 29, 2011 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #909079
OTB: I don’t think you are over-simlifying at all……..
you are just simply not accurate.
In fact what you posit may even be true, as a result of the crisis. Remeber the mashal of musical chairs…June 29, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #909080
When I call him to discuss potential shidduchim in the yeshiva for girls my wife knows, he does not look at age or anything the letter encourages. If he believes the appropriate match for this 20 yr old girl is a 25 yr old bachur, he says so, the same way if he felt a 20 yr old was the most suitable match.
Why did your R”Y sign it, if he doesn’t believe in doing what he signed asking people to do?
Here’s how I see the issue. Although it’s clear that closing the age gap would alleviate the numbers disparity, that doesn’t necessarily mean that a closer in age shidduch is better for the individuals involved.
If a bochur asks his R”Y for advice as to whom to marry, and the R”Y feels that he needs a younger girl (personality, maturity, etc.), then he can’t very well recommend for this bochur that he marries an older girl – it would be lifnei iver.
Similarly, if a girl (or her parents) would ask for advice (even from one of the signatories), it would seem that the best advice for her would be to try to get married as soon as she’s ready, and not wait just to help another girl.
So although there may seem to be a contradiction, there really isn’t one. On a societal basis, closer-in-age shidduchim would be beneficial, but on an individual basis, it might or might not be.
A R”Y signing in favor of the ideas of NASI is agreeing to the societal benefit, but not necessarily that it’s to the benefit of a particular individual.June 29, 2011 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #909081gavra_at_workParticipant
A R”Y signing in favor of the ideas of NASI is agreeing to the societal benefit, but not necessarily that it’s to the benefit of a particular individual.
That is exacly what I have said previously regarding going to work vs. staying in learning.June 29, 2011 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #909082
That is exacly what I have said previously regarding going to work vs. staying in learning.
There’s a metaphysical benefit to learning which can’t be factored that way.June 30, 2011 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #909083
but on an individual basis, it might or might not be.
exactly. so you, your rav, and everyone in the cr will in the end be hopefully looking for the zivug that is best for your child, irrespective of whether the age-difference is 6 months or 4 years.June 30, 2011 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #909084
“looking for the zivug that is best for your child, irrespective of whether the age-difference is 6 months or 4 years.”
looking for the zivug that is best for your child, irrespective of whether the age-difference is 6 months or 20-40 years.June 30, 2011 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #909085veteranMember
ooking for the zivug that is best for your child, irrespective of whether the age-difference is 6 months or 20-40 years.
That adds a whole new dimension to grandparents suggesting shidduchim! I can hear the calls coming in now, “So, Dovid’l, as soon as your Roizy gets back from the seminary plane I vant her to come right down to Boca and meet my neighbor Alter Chaim who nebach just lost his vife a few years ago. She vould be poyfect for him!”June 30, 2011 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #909086
health, if the guy 20 years older than the girl is what the girl is looking for and they can have the relationship that the 2 of them want, then there is no problem.
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