June 18, 2013 6:51 am at 6:51 am #609697
Seriously. I reproduce for you an excerpt from a public letter they issued to Rav Stav.
????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??”?
????”? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ???????? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????????. ?? ???? ??? ??????? “??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???????? ????? ????
We shuddered to hear the fearsome words spoken by Rav Ovadia Yosef regarding the great glory of his Torah (Rav Stav), last motzaei shabbos. Also what we have heard regarding the happenings in bnei brak at the wedding of Rav Rabinowitz’s daughter. Is this Torah and these are its scholars? Woe is to he who learned Torah, woe is to his father who taught him Torah, woe is to his rebbe who taught him Torah. See how crooked are his actions and how ugly are his ways.
This is all one paragraph in the original, and it appears to be referring to both the dude at the wedding, and also to Rav Ovadia Yosef!
About this indeed I do shudder. About this indeed every person ought to shudder.June 18, 2013 7:02 am at 7:02 am #961896dabeenMember
Kol Hakavod PBAJune 18, 2013 8:10 am at 8:10 am #961897Der RavMember
Shudder we shallJune 18, 2013 11:28 am at 11:28 am #961898147Participant
appears to be referring to both the dude at the wedding
popa_bar_abba:- Referring to a Rov as a Dude, is reprehensible on your part, and I am not clear how YWN would even have let your terminology get thru to the coffee room.
But practically speaking, Rav Ovadiah Yosef’s flaming remarks shall probably boomerang big way, and give many additional votes to Rav Dovid Stav shlita, irrespective whether he belongs in the job or not, but will probably have landed him this job.June 18, 2013 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #961899zahavasdadParticipant
I cant find the YWN article off hand, But the article in YWN said the Rav Yosef said these things without even meeting him and got on the facts of what he was told by his advisors.
We all know that Kanoim always tell the straight truthJune 18, 2013 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #961900
How dare you?!? The RCA includes many huge Rabbonim, such as R’ Hershel Schachter, R’ Mordechai Willig, and others. You, some little shnook, think you are big enough to come out against them? You should be shuddering! Shuddering at the immensity of the sin you just committed with your post!
Mods, how can you allow such a post, which attacks the largest organization of Orthodox Rabbonim in the USA?June 18, 2013 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #961901
147: Edit: I just read a secular news story about that, and it described the wedding people as “youths”. But, if it was a rav, then I should not have said “dude”.
zdad: If they assume Rav Yosef was misled by his advisors, then that is still no reason to say such things about him.
Feif: The letter was not signed by any of those rabbonim. Meanwhile, the RCA has about 1000 members–I surely don’t attribute this letter to all of them. In fact, regarding the rabbonim you mention, we might collectively wonder why the letter was not signed by them, and might easily infer the answer.
So yes, your post is a cute retort that if they cannot bash for bashing, then how can I bash for bashing for bashing, but it is misplaced.June 18, 2013 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #961904
Mods, once again you’ve proven the double standard here. You allow posts like this which attack the largest organization of Orthodox Rabbis because it’s a mainly Modern Orthodox organization, but you don’t allow a similar thread I post about a chareidi Rabbi!
Sure, there was no difference otherwise.June 18, 2013 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #961905
This is going put me in hot water (if the moderators even allow it through). Why do we have to listen to Rav Ovadia”s words? if you are his follower, so be it. I find his words in general very disturbing (he called Rav Amsallem a rosho, he calls Rav Stav an apikorus)
allowed half. The answer to you is there is a difference between a disagreement with the gadol hador of sephardic jewry, and saying “oy l’mi shelamdo torah”.June 18, 2013 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #961907
Wait…. so it’s okay to call somebody evil? Just because he doesn’t agree with you?June 18, 2013 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #961908yitzchokmParticipant
“So yes, your post is a cute retort that if they cannot bash for bashing, then how can I bash for bashing for bashing, but it is misplaced.”
classicJune 18, 2013 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #961910
How was my post different? It was about a Rav showing disrespect to another Rav. The exact same thing as this post. Only difference is the RCA is mostly Modern Orthodox, so you allow posters to bash it, while my post was about a chareidi Rosh Yeshiva.
You see the difference? Your post was about the gedolim of the last generation, while this is about 3 random rabbis who steer the RCA and are attacking one of the gedolim of this generation.
You think that’s the exact same thing? Brilliant.
And not quite sure why you think there is punishment waiting for us after 120 for this. After all, you never argued that this is wrong–you just used it as a pretext to launch your own attacks.
And I will gladly take the punishment I get for this.June 18, 2013 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #961911
I still don’t get why you think a group of rabbis can’t attack another rabbi for making inflammatory statements? It’s just a shame that it’s only the RCA. Where is the Agudah? They should also be upset that someone can speak like that. We see time and time again that these statements cause violence.June 18, 2013 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #961912
You think that it is ok for 3 rabbis who are elected to run the RCA to say things like that about one of the gedolei hador? This is insane. Insane.June 18, 2013 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #961913YW Moderator-95Moderator
Highly unimpressed by the MO posters here. Their good faith is being undercut by their deleted comments in a big way. You ought to be able to differentiate between your hashkafic machloksim and bare unbridled bizui talmidei chachomim.
Get a spine (as one of you said). Stand up to these 3 people who run the RCA and say: Not in my name. You will not say horrible things about gedolim in my name.June 18, 2013 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #961914
And calling someone evil is OK?June 18, 2013 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #961915
my (deleted) post was so much tamer than those. Or do we just not want to go in that other direction?
95 – thank you for explaining that it should be about truth and appropriateness, not politics. Even MO people could/should be unhappy with MO statements sometimes. Gd knows I have had plenty reason to be disappointed in many of my own leaders right now as well.
Correct. Thank you for understanding.June 18, 2013 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #961916
I didn’t say that.
And it doesn’t possibly make a difference. You cannot say such horrific things about gedolim even if they did something wrong.
My only limud zchus is that there was an error in the printing and it was meant to refer only to the kids at the wedding. And I’m waiting for the apology.June 18, 2013 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #961917
Why can’t you say horrific things about gedolim if they did something wrong?
The RCA has an obligation to stand up for Torah. If someone acts in such a way that is creating a bizayon of the Torah, namely calling people evil, etc. then they have an obligation to stand up for that.
What about all the charedi rabbis calling Lipman and other DL folk names? Is that also forbidden or since it’s charedim, then it’s OK?
If ROY can call a rav evil, I see no reason why the RCA (or anyone) can’t call him on it.June 18, 2013 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #961918
to the moderators: your premise is that, because Rav Ovadia is a great Possek and, according to some, godol hador, you must accept everything he says. Wrong. In halacha- I must bow to the Poskim who know more than me. In “milei d’alma” -daily matters-, I have no such duty. And ,regardless of your assertion, Rav Ovadia’s description of Rav Stav is deeply offensive. One can disagree with the politics without branding the other side as sinners.
Precisely the point. One can disagree with Rav Ovadia without saying woe is to him who taught him Torah.
And you’re incorrect that this is a matter outside the purview of the Torah.June 18, 2013 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #961919
I like YW-Mod75’s “bare unbridled bizui talmidei chachamim.”
Saying “This is the Torah you teach?” is considered a bizui.
Calling someone evil? Nah, that’s OK.
You are mistranslating the letter, and ignoring parts. Which is not intellectually honest of you, considering it is translated above.
And the comparison is not relevant. This is outrageous even if he was wrong.June 18, 2013 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #961920
You’re welcome, as long as you agree with me even though you didn’t post it. 🙂June 18, 2013 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #961921gavra_at_workParticipant
You think that it is ok for 3 rabbis who are elected to run the RCA to say things like that about one of the gedolei hador? This is insane. Insane.
I would 100% agree with you if Rav Yosef heard first hand from Rabbi Stav. However, from the Statement of Rav Yosef, he “accepted Eidus” regarding Rav Stav. We have recently seen (specificly with Rabbi Lipman & Rav Feldman, but others as well) how “eidus” is in many cases not true in the end.
Now, I agree that it doesn’t justify the language used by the RCA, but it seems that such language is the norm when involving any disagreement in EY (unfortunately).
Call it a “Limud Zechus”.June 18, 2013 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #961922
moderators: please show why “milei d’alma” -matters of daily interest=is WITHIN the purview of halacha. This has become the mantra today but there is no source for it.
take it to a different thread. Maybe I’ll post, maybe I won’t. I usually don’t get involved, as you know.June 18, 2013 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #961923zahavasdadParticipant
Id like to remind people Papa gave a rough translation
You cant exactly translate 10000% Hebrew to English or for that matter english into hebrew.
Maybe you can translate the words,but some of the inflection is lost and “fight words” dont exactly have the same meaning of emotionJune 18, 2013 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #961924DaMosheParticipant
First of all, the letter was never meant to be public. It was leaked by someone. Second, I understood the letter a bit differently.
I thought this part:
“Is this Torah and these are its scholars? Woe is to he who learned Torah, woe is to his father who taught him Torah, woe is to his rebbe who taught him Torah. See how crooked are his actions and how ugly are his ways.”
referred to the people who assaulted Rav Stav at the wedding. Yes, woe to the teacher, because when a Rebbe hears that his talmud, who he tried to guide in the proper derech, did such a thing, he should be mourning these actions! Yes, they trembled to hear the words of Chacham Ovadia shlita. But the 2nd half was about the people who went completely against halachah and assaulted a great Rav. Chacham Ovadia never would have approved such an action! Woe to the Rebbe who hears of his talmidim doing such a thing!June 18, 2013 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #961925yichusdikParticipant
Aside from being very disturbed by the words directed by a gadol at an individual, a talmid chochom who he has admitted he has never met or talked to, I am once again wondering why anyone, like the apologists for harsh words here, who in general either denigrates, doesn’t follow for kashrus or geirus, or otherwise ignores the Chief Rabbinate for practical purposes has the gall to take a position for or against ANYONE vying for the rabanut harashit. WHy should you even deserve to have an opinion if you have such mocking disdain for the institution??
Is it maybe because all of a sudden jobs and appointments within the rabbinate will not automatically go to a chareidi Rov, Ashkenazic or sefardic? And have we thus uncovered the real reason why such a milchomo is being waged by so many against a (horrors) Dati Tzioni rav?
Scratch away the varnish, and too often you uncover concerns about money and power.June 18, 2013 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #961926
Yes, my limud zchus is that there was an error and it was supposed to read like that. And I hope that is the truth, but it doesn’t say that. They need to correct and apologize.June 18, 2013 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #961927benignumanParticipant
As DaMoshe said the letter was meant to be private. Still at least one of the signatories has said publicly that he stands by the letter.
PBA is absolutely right.
One can only hope that this was a mistake and they meant the “??? ??” to refer only to the youth who committed assault. In which case they should apologize as soon as possible.June 18, 2013 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #961928ToiParticipant
This thread is leibidig!! What up!!June 18, 2013 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #961929
“You think that it is ok for 3 rabbis who are elected to run the RCA to say things like that about one of the gedolei hador? This is insane. Insane.”
You say it’s okay for a gadol to call ANYBODY an evil person? This is insane. Insane.
No I’m not (just) trying to be cute- I seriously don’t understand. Because a person is a gadol, any rechilus he accepts and any motzi shem ra he spreads is suddenly on a heilige plane?June 18, 2013 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #961930
That isn’t really relevant. I’m not telling the RCA what to think about what Rav Yosef said. They can think he was wrong. But they cannot abandon all semblance of respect and attack him in such a horrific manner.
My only regret is that I am not a member of the RCA to be able to resign in protest. I emailed my protest to two of the signers; their email addresses are publicly available online.June 18, 2013 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #961931Sam2Participant
I’m not sure why there is fighting on this thread. It seems that everyone agrees to the following points:
1. R’ Ovadia is entitled to an opinion and may say anything if it’s Halachically necessary and relevant, including attacking another person (e.g. R’ Stav).
2. R’ Schachter, R’ Willig, etc. are entitled to an opinion and may say anything if it’s Halachically necessary and relevant, including attacking another person (e.g. R’ Ovadia).
3. Random Rabbis from the RCA are not entitled to an opinion and may not say anything to attack another person (e.g. me, or R’ Ovadia) even if they feel it’s Halachically necessary and relevant.
Good, so the entire argument in this thread is about whether or not who will be the next Chief Rabbi is a “Halachically necessary and relevant”. Is that worth fighting so much over?
(Ironically, the right-wingers here are holding that it is such an issue while the not-as-right-wingers are holding it isn’t. See how things get much simpler when you boil them down?)June 18, 2013 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #961932twistedParticipant
It is unfortunate that the RCA used such language, however, that is the likely way this is playing out in amcha. Being somewhere on the chardal/amerikaner meshooga scsle, I don’t exactly have a clear take on the “secular” mindset, but Rav Stav is much beloved in many circles, people who the untrained eye would take to be rahok, or lost to the cause. They cannot be now blamed for thinking just what the RCA let out. So in fact, the RCA is correct in the analysis, they should have sat taanis instead of publishing.June 18, 2013 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #961934DaMosheParticipant
Sam2: I think that EVERY Rav has an obligation to say something if he feels it is halachically necessary, no matter how big or small he may be. A Rav also has a responsibility to know when he needs to ask another Rav for a second opinion.
As I said before, I think the letter was ambiguously worded, and I think everyone is reading it in a way it wasn’t intended. I wonder if a chareidi Rabbi wrote such a letter, would they be jumping to attack him, or would they try and find a limud zchus, such as reading the letter the way I did?June 18, 2013 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #961935
I don’t agree with number 3. I think random rabbis from the RCA can attack someone if they think necessary. But they can’t attack the gedolei yisroel like this. They ought to have a bit more humility than that.June 18, 2013 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #961936rebdonielMember
Hakham Ovadia is not bashful about what he thinks of other people and groups. I respect the man for speaking his mind, even if I don’t agree with his conclusions.June 18, 2013 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #961937
I can now confirm on first hand information that it was not meant for public release.June 18, 2013 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #961938SL1Member
pba: Why do you shudder? The rca is not a chareidi organization and understandably this is what they think. Can they not say what they think?June 18, 2013 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #961939YW Moderator-95Moderator
Truthsharer: Don’t stick your head between the mountains. You might get crushed.June 18, 2013 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #961940
I just confirmed that the YWN bias will not allow anything that is against Charedim to go through.
I’m sorry you can’t understand the difference. Like I said, don’t stick your head between the mountains. When gedolim are disagreeing, you don’t get involved.June 18, 2013 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #961941
I’m not sure if you are being facetious. I’m not concerned with what they agree with. I’m concerned with the horrific attack on the preeminent gadol of the sefardim.June 18, 2013 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #961942
If you want modern folk to respect your leaders, you might want to show respect for your leaders as well.June 18, 2013 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #961943
Mod, gedolim were not disagreeing. R’ Moshe issued a psak that was ignored, contrary to the advice of several other gedolim who tried to get the other party to listen. It was not a machlokes, it was a “I don’t have to listen to you.”
That’s the reason why EVERY Beis Din they went to (for a different issue) ruled against them.June 18, 2013 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #961944
Mods: You say when gedolim are disagreeing, you shouldn’t get involved. Why don’t you try applying that to Modern Orthodox gedolim?
Try applying it when R’ Tendler argues about metzitzah b’peh. People here shouldn’t get involved, yet you have no problem letting through insults to R’ Tendler.
Try applying it here, in this case!June 18, 2013 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #961947
Mods, again you won’t post what I write? All I wrote was something R’ Moshe Feinstain zt”l said, which was later printed in a public letter. What’s wrong with that?
I don’t know. Ask someone and see if they can figure it out.June 18, 2013 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #961948
You know, I actually have real, legitimate questions about this kind of thing. I think this is the second time you’ve deleted a post/thread where I’ve asked about the infallibility or whatever of gedolim. I really don’t understand- you’re not helping anybody here, and you’re not doing your side any favors, either. You’re just polarizing.
This thread is certainly not the place for that discussion. It does not matter here whether Rav Ovadia was right or wrong, or even grievously wrong. What the RCA did was horrific regardless, since even if he was wrong–it is insane to say such things about him. It is an appalling lack of respect and humility.
So- are you brave enough to let this through: why must I respect as a gadol someone who calls another Jew evil? Is it solely because he is called a gadol?
That is relevant. I’ll let that through. I believe it is an honest question.
Remember- you’re dealing with real people with real questions on here (or at least, I’m real, if nobody else is).June 18, 2013 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #961949
writersoul – real people with real questions are a smaller minorityJune 18, 2013 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #961950
why must I respect as a gadol someone who calls another Jew evil? Is it solely because he is called a gadol?
Because you should have the humility to say that there are people in the world who know more than you, and that these are them. (Why are these them? Relevant tangent, but I’m not going there, since that is not under dispute.) And that if you think they are wrong, you can question, but there is a respectful way to do that, and an unbelievably horrible way to do that. And this is the horrible way.June 18, 2013 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #961951
PBA, yet the same doesn’t apply when it’s the other way around. Why is that? Why do charedim (and not just the rabbanim, but even laypeople) get a free pass on vitriol?
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