- This topic has 39 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 12 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
if a rebbi/principal grabs a child by his neck drags him out of the classroom and throws him out the door
Get the rebbes version of the events.
Take the kid out of the school and call the police.
APY +1
Who said this isn’t the rebbe’s version of events?
Boruch Hashem! Thanks for letting us know!
Firstly, this scenario is not rare. Probably less common than 50 years ago, but not rare either.
Secondly, there are other forms of abuse that are relatively commonplace. The use of shame as a tool for discipline is rampant. This can include name calling, saying embarrassing things to a student, punishing a child publicly, and forcing kids to embarrass themselves in front of classmates or other kids. The trained rebbe neither does these things nor feels a need to stoop to this. But the overwhelming majority of our mechanchim have never participated in a program to train them to manage a classroom, build a curriculum, or establish constructive relationships with talmidim. The situation today is much improved over past years, but we are still far from making our yeshivos emotionally safe for our children.
This comment, rash as it is, might throw a different thrust to this thread.
Ahron -“what happened to my post…how come all of my long ones are deleted?”
Probably because of Loshon Horah Motzie Shem Ra.
#1 have a doctor check the child out…he is a mandated reporter in most states and will contact police and Child Protective services if he find merit in the child’s version of the events
#2 Find a new school
#3 Contact the Board of Directors of the current school, tell what occurred, that you are immediately demanding withdrawal of all your children from the school and full and immediate refund of all tuition monies paid for the current term. Let them know that it they do not immediately comply you will institute legal action, which may lead to police and government involvement and adverse publicity.
#4 Find out if this adult has a teaching/administrator’s license (unusual in most yeshivos) and contact the licensing body for an investigation.
Monsters like this do not belong in contact with children.
The above all assumes the action is true and that the child did not strike the adult first and he was forcibly removed in an act of self-defense.
Disclaimer: CTLawyer has brought pro bono actions in the past on behalf of indigent children who have been manhandled or hit by teachers or administrators. Three years ago a principal in one of CT’s largest cities took two children and dragged them down the corridor by theirs ears because the kids were noisy in the lunchroom. She was suspended for 6 months no pay, while a criminal investigation took place. Found to be chargeable under the law, she was convicted of battery, lost her professional licenses, was fired and is facing civil suits by the parents.
Note to all adults: If it is not your child KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF!!!!!!!!!!! If it is your child, be very careful how and when you physically discipline them, a potch on tuchas in public could lead to a social sevrices agency investigation.
CALL 911 AND AGAIN 911
chala2 -“CALL 911 AND AGAIN 911”
Wrong! 911 is only for emergencies.
I’m not getting into whether s/o should contact the police or not.
This is an emergency.
The situation described by the OP sounds like it could be life-threatening.
No, Lightbrite………..
911 is for emergencies as they are occurring and authorities are needed for immediate action. In this case the child is out of the building and the offender is not an immediate threat. One should call the regular phone number for the police.
Calling 911 for this type of incident could delay a call for a firetruck or ambulance needed to save a life
I would talk to the principal and get the child out of this teacher’s class, try to get him the help he needs, but would not call the police as it will only create more problems. The parents will be labeled as informers, they will have a hard time find a yeshiva that will accept the child.
Abba/S………..
The original post suggests that the Principal put hands on the child and tossed him out the door. Why then talk to the principal?
As for other yeshivos not accepting a student who had been manhandled at yeshiva #1 and filed an abuse complaint, shame on them…they should be exposed and baal baatim should cut off funding. We must protect our children, not the abusers who work in chinuch
IT WAS A MADE-UP STORY! CALM DOWN EVERYONE!
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/abuse#post-638037
Don’t abuse the word abuse by describing grabbing an out of control kid as abuse.
Bad chinuch, probably. But using punitive legal action like CTLawyer’s is equally disturbing without finding out the teachers, and school leadership version of events.
Ash……………
It’s obvious you did not read and follow my post:
#1 have child checked by doctor and the doctor will report abuse if there is merit to the child’s version of the events.
After #4 I write:
“The above all assumes the action is true and that the child did not strike the adult first and he was forcibly removed in an act of self-defense.”
How dare you say I suggest punitive legal action without finding out the teacher’s version of the events?
Before you make accusations, make sure you read every word in a post, understand and digest them. Attorneys choose their words very carefully, even when posting under a nom de plum on social media sites such as the coffee room. I never suggested legal action without making sure the child’s version was accurate and that unwanted and unauthorized physical contact by a school employee occurred.
No information was given in the original post as to the jurisdiction where this occurred (or that it was made up). I regularly post that my legal opinions are as the law applies in CT. As posted, the school employee would be guilty of common law battery…’the unwanted and illegal touching of another’ In most states in the USA, corporal punishment by school employees of students is not legal.
BTW>>>The school principal I mentioned from a big city in CT had her appeal thrown out by a CT Appeals Court today, it had already been decided against her by a Federal judge when she claimed she was disciplined because she was Black. The abused children were also Black.
Even if a kid is punching another kid or his rebbe, it’s not okay to grab him by the neck.
If the child was endangering or assaulting other kids or staff, the teacher can restrain them as per the standards of the school board (which it should have trained all staff or at least teachers on).
If it isn’t in this context, it is assault, plain and simple, no matter how chutzpadik or disruptive the klid might have been.
If its a one off, its still assault, but my understanding of the word abuse in the context of schools would indicate something that is repeated or going on for a long time. (I stand to be corrected. Its just semantics about the meaning and use of the word).
For a mandated reporter it has to be reported immediately. For anyone else it is simply witnessing a crime against a child. what would you do if it was your child?
And if all other considerations of common sense do not move you, I can’t think of a more appropriate application of dina demalchusa dina than the protection of the vulnerable from harm.
Yichusdik……………
NO!!!!!!!!!! It is NOT assault. Please see this attorney’s post>>>it is BATTERY. You post the common misconception of assault. Assault is putting someone into the fear of imminent bodily harm. Assault requires no contact. The victim must feel threatened by the words and actions of the assailant.
Battery is the unwanted and/or harmful touching of another without permission.
Often the charge is assault AND battery. The assailant threatens to punch the victim in the nose and follows through immediately with his fist. But if an assailant walks behind you, you don’t see him, and he smacks you on the head with a brick it is merely battery. You can’t be afraid of what you don’t know is coming in the immediate future.
“If it is your child, be very careful how and when you physically discipline them, a potch on tuchas in public could lead to a social sevrices agency investigation.”
Are you serious? Even if the kid ran into the street and the parent wanted to be mechanech them not to do so? (classic example of THE case that it is ok to potch a child).
Lilmod…………
You do not live in the liberal northeastern US.
Very often, busybody strangers will call Children’s Protective Services if they see an adult hit a child (even a potch on tuchas). CPS (DCG here in CT) MUST then conduct an investigation, as they are charged under the law.
The investigation can cause duress, and the end result is that the parent did nothing wrong. But why subject yourself to the process if it can be avoided.
CT Lawyer, the criminal code where I live defines Assault as the use of force or threat of force.
That is what I am referencing. I do not live in the United States. So, though I am a big fan of yours, I think you made an assumption about my post and definition.
Yichusdik
My apologies…that’s why I constantly post that I explain the law as it is in my jurisdiction.
The definition I gave of assault is not CT criminal code, but the Common Law definition in the English and American legal systems
Where I come from, it’s acceptable to restrain a child who is about to hurt someone, but not to kill him.
Cv”s anyone comes from a place where it’s acceptable to kill a child.
Lightbrite…………….
RebYidd23’s comment might be read as if it is acceptable to restrain a child who is about to hurt someone. It is not acceptable to restrain a child who is about to kill someone. Since the final pronoun follows someone, it should refer to someone, not the child.
Abba/S………..
The original post suggests that the Principal put hands on the child and tossed him out the door. Why then talk to the principal?
I apologize I thought it was only Rabbi.I find it hard to believe that a Principal would come into a classroom and just grab a student by the neck and throw him out the door. Most yeshivas have a Financial Director and a Chairmen of the Board who you can complain to instead of the principal. Why not give the Rabbi the benefit of the doubt and have the child checked out by a medical professional. Who if abuse is seen, must, by law, report it to the authorities rather then falsely accuse him of abuse.
As far as a criminal complaint, unless the student wants to press charges and you actual witnessed it, the police will do nothing.
As far as suing the rabbi or yeshiva ,you wouldn’t collect a dime from them. Maybe you will collect something from the insurance company, if they have insurance. So unless you have a pro bono lawyer this isn’t going anywhere.
Once you’re getting all nitpicky, in the way you interpret my statement, it only refers to a child who is not killing anyone and doesn’t state anything about children who kill.
I meant cv”s someone lives in place where it is acceptable to kill a child who is about to hurt someone.
—Ummm maybe I need more sleep because I don’t see what I missed here.
CTLAWYER now your reply…
“It is not acceptable to restrain a child who is about to kill someone.”
…Sounds like it is unacceptable to get in the way of a child about to kill someone.
IT WAS A MADE-UP STORY! CALM DOWN EVERYONE!
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/abuse#post-638037
+1
I understand that this is a hot-button issue, but there’s really not much point in getting all worked up about the nitty-gritty of a story that never happened.
Thanks mw13! Glad someone finally noticed my post!
mw13: Why not give it thought? The thoughts, information, and considerations here may still be applicable IRL.
Also for you this may have been made up, but unfortunately some posters may have seen or heard about something like this happening in IRL.
They may have not had the luxury of distance, time, and deliberation to reflect on all the nitty gritty details.
If something like this happens cv”s in the future, posters may now be better equipped because of this thread.
Anything is possible. Maybe Hashem
motivated you to create this thread for a good reason.
Sigh 🙁 Sorry
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.