August 1, 2011 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #598348
This morning i overheard a number of yungerleit engrossed in a heated discussion regarding an article in the Ami Magazine, does anyone have any info about this? It seemed like a brewing conflict.August 1, 2011 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #794773
You do realize, that yungerleit can debate anything (as can most people).
They may have been discussing the article titled “Is bungalow living bad for your shalom bayis” (or something to that effect). They may have been discussing the interview with Gerrard Marrone.
Perhaps they were debating the merits of a specific recipe. 🙂August 1, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #794774WolfishMusingsParticipant
Can you fill us in on which article it is? Otherwise it’s very difficult for us to comment, having not been present at the heated discussion you witnessed.
The WolfAugust 1, 2011 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #794775gavra_at_workParticipant
Is bungalow living bad for your shalom bayis
Is this even a question?August 1, 2011 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #794776
“Is this even a question?”
Not in my mind. For a well rooted, sound marraige, its the best thing, and enhances your relationship.
For a rocky marraige, in most cases it just accelerates a process that is already underway. Its not the bungalow that did it.
Anyone who read the article will see that it was written by someone who (by her own admission) was on shaky grounds. It was a poor example of what bungalow life can (and in most cases) beAugust 1, 2011 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #794777gavra_at_workParticipant
For a well rooted, sound marraige, its the best thing, and enhances your relationship.
Could you please expand on this?August 1, 2011 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #794778elikParticipant
are some people so blinded??
do they realize how many couples are breaking up and alot have to do with desires outside their marriage??August 1, 2011 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #794779popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Bungalow living is bad for your marriage. Once your husband finds out how much quieter the house is without you, and how many options there are for cholent at 2 in the morning, you are finished.August 1, 2011 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #794780
” Could you please expand on this? “
Expand on this? With pleasure! I’ve been working on this post for almost 20 years (my bungalow carrear to date)
1 – it makes you appreicate having someone at home when you come home
2 – meals (that needs no expanding on)
3 – When you get to see how truly nutty some other wife are, you appreciate your own wife even more than you already do
4 – being able to get home in under 60 minutes (as opposed to having a 2.5 hour commute) makes you (and your mrs) appreicate how nice it is to live in the metro area, no matter how nice the suburbs seem.
” how many options there are for cholent at 2 in the morning”
This is a hard point to refute. Luckily, there are the 9 days, so its back to the appreciation route. (and back to rice cakes and duck sauce for some of us)August 1, 2011 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #794781
I definitely don’t think it’s the best way of starting a marriage. Years down the line, when the couple is more settled, and there is no more immature comparing, perhaps there is a place for bungalow colonies.
I don’t know why the guys would ever want to go- unless they read popa_bar_abba’s comment. BTW some places are even open for cholent at 3 (just saying).August 1, 2011 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #794782deiyezoogerMember
“Could you please expand on this? “
A few years ago our family rented an old bungelow for ten days, we figured how bad can it, be we will only be sleeping there while we will spend the day time swimming, shoping, going places e.t.c. but it turned out that the first week didn’t stop raining and we were locked in the bungelow for most of the time. We had the time of our lives. We played together, did art projects, told stories. And 5 years latter my kids still have good memories of mushrooms growing in the bathroom (a luxery they sure don’t have at home).August 1, 2011 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #794783
“I definitely don’t think it’s the best way of starting a marriage.”
Most people don’t start going to their own place until they are married for about 4 years. (Going to your parents / in-laws place does not count, as that’s no different from the going over that’s done all year).
My comments were based on years 5 and beyond
” some places are even open for cholent at 3 “
3:00 am cholent will interfere with my pre-shacris coffee. No thanks.August 1, 2011 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #794784
Yeah, it sounds like this must have been the topic.August 1, 2011 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #794785telegrokMember
my chulent hits its prime at about 11:30 pm. I raid the pot at 11:00 and defer utter Shabbos bliss until lunch the next day.August 1, 2011 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #794786
I’m having trouble seeing how exactly this discussion got derailed, but I will explain which article was discussed, and what the issue was. (i will ask those who wish to discuss the effects of bungalow living on marriage, to open a thread on that, 🙂 thanks.)
It was an article regarding the Kletzky incident, in which the writer suggested that we can tell our children that “it wasn’t G-d who did it, someone else killed him on his own decision.” That was the basic outline. I do not know the name of the article, or its author.
To say that a human being has the free will to do something which G-d has not destined him to do, is definitely a controversial approach to the area of hashgacha and bechira.
This hashkafically controversial topic, was so ingeniously slipped into a nondescript article tackling a tragedy. Needless to say, most frum Yidden with knowledge in basic emuna would be appalled with such a concept being sold as acceptable. that was the fiery discussion I overheard.
These were not mere ‘hockers’, they were upstanding mature yungerleit, who were genuinely bothered by this infiltration of questionable literature and values into their homes.
i should comment that there are a number of sources in the rishonim and acharonim, which suggest that such a belief (i.e. that someone can go and kill another person even if it is not ‘bashert’ that the other should die) is acceptable. Many Rishonim and Achronim vehemently oppose this position.August 1, 2011 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #794787Derech HaMelechMember
And 5 years latter my kids still have good memories of mushrooms growing in the bathroom
Haha. You just reminded me of some old memories of the mushrooms growing in the bungalows. I haven’t been to the country in 20 years and I totally forgot about that.August 1, 2011 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #794788
“Most people don’t start going to their own place until they are married for about 4 years. (Going to your parents / in-laws place does not count, as that’s no different from the going over that’s done all year)”.
If I understand correctly, you are saying that it’s okay for a younger couple to go to parents’ bungalow for the summer? Aren’t they still being exposed to many other “perfect” marriages?
“3:00 am cholent will interfere with my pre-shacris coffee”
I hear you!August 1, 2011 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #794789
” it sounds like this must have been the topic.”
But its rapidly turning into a cholent thread. Which is a good thing!
Personally, I forgo Friday night cholent, but must admit, erev-shabbos potato kugel, is (IMHO) even better than Shabbos daytime kugel.
So, I ask all the nay-sayers, is this the talk of people with sholom bayis issues? Is this something that could be undone by a bumgalow? From the posts so far, I’m willing to bet that for the right wife, we would live in a cardboard box on the (screened in) portch, if that’s what it took to make the existing bungalow situation work (as long as the kugel was good, which it clearly is).
We are upstate for July / Aug because its worth the hassle. If things are on the rocks, it was not to bungalow that did itAugust 1, 2011 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #794790
Gruber yung –
If that was the article, I have no comment. The Kletzki story should (IMHO) stop being used. Its too painful, and short of making changes in the way we deal with our kids, should be left alone.August 1, 2011 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #794791
Bpt, thank you for the first reply that was on topic.
I entirely agree on your approach to the mileage the kletzki story got… Enough. (I was sick of the topic 3 days in.) This is unrelated though, with the Kletzki connection being minimal and circumstantial.
Do you think a frum family Mag should steer clear of hashkafa grey-areas?August 1, 2011 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #794792
“it’s okay for a younger couple to go to parents’ bungalow for the summer. Aren’t they still being exposed to many other “perfect” marriages?
What I meant was, since the young couple travels back and forth each weekend (and are not separated for the mid-week, like us older folks) the risks to a new marraige are not as present. As for seeing other “prefect marraiges” they are still so starry-eyed, they can see little else, so until year 5, they are missing all the cues anyways.
Plus, the real insights into other people’s lives only come to the surface during the week when husbands are away in city exile, and is then is promptly reported, in great detail on the weekend recap of “so, whats new?”
Something newlyweds dont get a chance to ask, as they are never apart for more than 12-15 hours at a timeAugust 1, 2011 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #794793
bpt, yes and no. Your scenario seems to makes sense, but you are generalizing a bit by assuming:
a- young couple isn’t there DURING the week
b- the young couple is remaining starry eyed for 5 years (I have yet to see that. It usually doesn’t take the young couple more than a month to stop seeing the stars)
c- women don’t find time to yent
d- people aren’t having “real insights” during the weekend, when the bungalow colony is plenty crowded with peopleAugust 1, 2011 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #794794
A – they can’t be. She works!
B – what I meant was, young couples are usually resistant to seeing (and learning from other people’s mistakes)
C – no comment /won’t go there (but not sure what I said that implied that
D – its too noisy over the weekend. The best pearls come to the surface when its quiet, and the men are in the city
Just callin’ it as I see it. And over the years, I’ve seen plenty.August 1, 2011 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #794795YW Moderator-80Member
Bpt, thank you for the first reply that was on topic
why in the world should this stay on topic since you didnt say what the topic was until 4 posts ago!August 1, 2011 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #794796
Mod, you’re right, I was busy until I got back and the thread had taken on a whole new identity.
I was just trying to point out that originally the discussion wasn’t about bungalows. (It didn’t help me much.)August 2, 2011 12:00 am at 12:00 am #794797bombmaniacParticipant
i made a thread saying that about 2 days after the tragedy…but the mods deleted the thread…i thought it was being exploited and overdone and invoked way too often to promote people’s personal agendas…whether those agendas were right or not…August 2, 2011 12:25 am at 12:25 am #794798zaidy78Participant
The question of whether somebody could kill someone else without Hashem’s wanting it is a serious hashkafic question. In Hashem’s masterplan of the world, did Leiby have to get killed? Did Hitler have to kill 6,000,001 people? I don’t know. But I know from Chazal that Kayin didn’t HAVE to kill Hevel. As a matter of fact, because he did Kayin and Hevel and to be recreated many years later as Moshe Rabeinu and Ahahron HaKohen. To make up for the killing, Aharon HaKohein (Kayin) was a ohev shalom v’rodef shalom. So people can do things that Hashem does not want? That is the basis for BeChira. If there was no choice then there couldn’t be s’char viOnesh (reward and punishment).
Every person has his own way of getting through and trying to understand these tragic events that are befalling Am Yisroel. To some the answer is “we cannot ask questions”, to others the asnswer may be that “Hashem doesn’t kill, people kill”. We can each decide for ourselves how to get to tomorrow but lets remember ??? ?’ ???, for this is the only way to survive these horrific times.August 2, 2011 12:31 am at 12:31 am #794799
Grubber Yung – “Needless to say, most frum Yidden with knowledge in basic emuna would be appalled with such a concept being sold as acceptable. that was the fiery discussion I overheard.
These were not mere ‘hockers’, they were upstanding mature yungerleit, who were genuinely bothered by this infiltration of questionable literature and values into their homes.”
I think the yungerleit should spend less time in the coffee room and more time in the Bais Medrash. Even if it is a Daas Yochid that the mag is going by, it’s fine. The mag isn’t a Pilpul Shiur -they aren’t required to bring down every Shitta. If the Shitta that they decided to go by isn’t what you hold -then by all means refrain from buying/reading this mag!August 2, 2011 12:51 am at 12:51 am #794800
I read that article. I think these guys are reading ay to much into the article. How many of those debating the article, actually read it?August 2, 2011 5:18 am at 5:18 am #794801
I agree very much that Hashkafa is a serious thing and shouldn’t be up to some author’s whim. If we wouldn’t care about our children, and ourselves seeing Kosher Hashkafa, why do we need Chareidi papers? I constantly see how people spit out their own ideas whether or not they actualy bothered to learn through the topic.
The actual question is a deep one, and shouldn’t be relegated to a high school class discussion. The Chovos Halevavos mentions three approaches on this matter. The third one, the one that he likes the best, is that both are true. It is a Gezeira and it is your choice. It is a contradiction, at face value, but they are true nonetheless. When it comes to accepting what happened, focus on the Gezera approach, when it comes to reckoning your actions or planning ahead, focus on the fact that it s all in your hands.
This is not the first Hashkafic topic that a newspaper has opined on. It is unfortunate how many people have their thinking influenced more from these papers than from the real source.August 2, 2011 6:42 am at 6:42 am #794802
Halevi -“I agree very much that Hashkafa is a serious thing and shouldn’t be up to some author’s whim.”
So who should it be up to -the editor/publisher? If you don’t think that something you read is upto par, don’t buy or read it.
“If we wouldn’t care about our children, and ourselves seeing Kosher Hashkafa, why do we need Chareidi papers?”
People buy these things because generally they are better than goyishe papers, but there is no guarantee everything in them is upto par. You have to be the Mashgiach on what comes into your home -it’s not the job of the paper/mag.August 2, 2011 9:56 am at 9:56 am #794803PosterMember
I love the AMI so dont talk to me about this. There is tons to read in it! Did u read about the ice creamstore in Queens that sells 5,000 flavors. Was anyone there?August 2, 2011 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #794804
Halevi, thank you for your well written comment.
Health, allow me to explain why exactly this is not the mag’s decision.
When i say a ‘controversial topic in hashkafa’, it means there are sources who regard this as borderline heresy (Reb Aaron Kotler zt”l, for example, related in the name of the Vilner Gaon that this is not the correct view). Such a questionable concept should not be sold by ANYONE as a dovor poshut, without giving the slightest mention of those who vehemently disagree. When we are dealing with hashkafa, the danger is twofold: 1) relying on a daas yochid is a little more scary when you are forming your belief system. 2) most people – especially children – don’t even know the problem with this statement, and it remains ingrained in their minds.
I personally think that the Ami should stick to recipes, and leave sensitive topics in Judaism to everyone’s respective rebbeim. But evidently the editorship disagrees, they seem to deem it their job to set the tone on our beliefs. Being that they embroiled themselves in many hashkafic faux-pas, I think it is safe to say it wasn’t an accident.August 2, 2011 12:15 pm at 12:15 pm #794805
1. The statement of the article quoted here, and the article itself, do not (in my opinion) lead one to the conclusion drawn by the “chashuve yungerleit”.
2: how many of those “chashuve yungerleit” read the article they are “hocking” on.
3:Did the OP read the article or is this thread based on hock that he “overheard”?
To the question posed by the hockers. Why is anyone ever liable for any aveira that they did, obviously hashem allowed it to happen. Did Leiby HAVE TO die, well the way of all people is that eventually, we all do. Why the ribbono she’ll olam allowed the malach hamaves free reign in this situation and in this manner is not a question we will ever have answered in this world. The author made no attempt to answer this question, just the question how to deal with children, on their level. If you feel the answer the author gave is wrong or hashkafically off altogether, I eagerly await your response to the author in an upcoming issue of AMI.August 2, 2011 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #794808
I’ve been to Max and Minas. Not every flavor is to my taste, but many are and I find them delicious.August 2, 2011 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #794809tzippiMember
I didn’t read the article yet but I do have access to it (I don’t generally buy it, nothing against Ami, just not in the budget).
I don’t know if this was the right thing to say, but I’d heard the news before my son went to camp and I knew I had to say something in the limited time I had. Among other things was that he’s going to hear a lot of stuff, some of it true, some of it not, but he had to know that, as impossible as it sounds, Hashem had a reason for letting this happen and Hashem was involved.
Maybe I shouldn’t say anything, not knowing the context. But taking the words at face value, yeah, problematic.
As for exploiting, that’s a whole nother thread.August 2, 2011 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #794810bombmaniacParticipant
As for exploiting, that’s a whole nother thread.
Why do people insist on saying nother? Nother is not a word.August 2, 2011 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #794811HachamMember
You never utilize a term that isn’t found in the dictionary in your speech?August 2, 2011 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #794812tzippiMember
To bombmaniac: my apologies. I have enough beefs myself. (Don’t get me started on apostrophes!) I fully understand but can’t guarantee not writing in the colloquial in the future.August 2, 2011 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #794813
“But taking the words at face value, yeah, problematic.”
Tzippi. Which words might those be?August 2, 2011 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #794814
Grubber yung -“it means there are sources who regard this as borderline heresy (Reb Aaron Kotler zt”l, for example, related in the name of the Vilner Gaon that this is not the correct view).”
After reading all the posts above it seems that this Shitta is more of a Daas Yochid than the other.
“Such a questionable concept should not be sold by ANYONE as a dovor poshut, without giving the slightest mention of those who vehemently disagree.”
Since this is what they hold, they aren’t required to bring down the other Shittos.
“I personally think that the Ami should stick to recipes, and leave sensitive topics in Judaism to everyone’s respective rebbeim.”
You are entitled to your opinion, but they aren’t going to listen to you because that’s not what sells mags!
If you feel that they aren’t up to your Haskafa standards -you should definitely not buy/read it.
Coming here and trying to make an argument that they are Chazar Treif won’t work because they have at least one Shitta to be Someach on!
And btw, I have never bought this mag in my life.August 2, 2011 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #794816aries2756Participant
How can you form this whole entire discussion around Leiby and ignore what happened to R’ Abuchazeira? If you are going to talk about emunah and whether it was up to Hashem or a human being then you have to speak about both occurrences when stating your POV and facts.
As far as the AMI article, just as you would look up the facts in the Torah, Gemorah, etc., you need to look up the facts before you speak about it. Hearing an overheated argument is not a good enough source to “bad mouth” the magazine. It was your responsibility to first read the article yourself to see if indeed the author came to the same conclusion that these bochurim were discussing or whether they misjudged or came to their own conclusion.
The second step would have been to call or write both the author and the magazine and see if they could correct the issue at hand. In the event that they refuse or ignore you, then it would be permissible to bring it to the attention of the public. Being motzei shem ra on the author and the magazine does not make you a tzadik even though you think you are right in your opinion of trying to protect the masses.August 2, 2011 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #794817No One SpecialMember
Didn’t read the article, but as far as I always knew, basic Emunah is that yeah, we each have a bechirah, and yeah, Hashem decrees every single thing we do! And yes, we DON’T have to understand how anything works.August 2, 2011 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #794818
“This is unrelated though, with the Kletzki connection being minimal and circumstantial.
Do you think a frum family Mag should steer clear of hashkafa grey-areas?”
Fair enough, Gruber Yung
(gosh, I wish you’d consider a new name).
I skipped the article the 1st time around, but will read it and see what it says.August 2, 2011 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #794819anonymrsParticipant
i didnt read this whole thread (im way too tired for that) but here is my take on the hashkafa issue.
i remember learning that Hashem determines a plan for the world, but not who will be the one to carry it out. our actions are up to us. it was the plan for leiby, a”h, to die, but it was not determined how it would happen or who would carry out that plan.August 2, 2011 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #794820
To all those accusing me of being judgemental, I in no way was being offensive in my writing. I stated a fact that this is not the consensus of all shitos in bechira, and questioned the right (and wisdom) of a magazine to take a position in a sensitive topic in emuna, whilst entirely ignoring the opposing views.
To those who countered me to go and learn the topic before writing, suffice it to say i didnt write my post before i learnt the Or Hachayim in Vayeishev – which is the most popular source for this view, based upon his interpretation on a certain passage in the Zohar. I discussed the matter at length with numerous Talmidei Chachamim. Arguing with this opinion there is a Ramban, a Ma’avar Yabok, Vilner Gaon and even a Or Hachayim that seems to imply to the contary. I didn’t think that this is the place to go off on a tangent, so I minced words.
Motzi shem ra? the AMI staunchly defends their position and refuses to retract.August 2, 2011 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #794821
Health, I don’t understand. If you don’t agree to my point of view, don’t read it!August 2, 2011 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #794822
Health, you asked earlier who’s whim it should be up to.(!) It shouldn’t be up to anyone’s whim. If they want to have an article about an Hashkafic topic, it should be penned by an Adam Gadol. I wouldn’t trust it to be written by a writer based on an interview, but at least that. Hashkafa, especially something from the Ikrei Emuna, is not to based on someone’s musings.
By the way, you’ll constantly find in Chazal discussions of why certain people deserved to die, about people who were murdered by Rasha’im. In the Shaalos Tshuvos Min Shamayim, when asked about something of this nature, at first they did not want to discuss it. After repeated requests, the Sho’el got a response concluding with, these things are very deep. Who can take upon themselves to shoot off the hip ideas born from no place?
If an author would give some psychological advice I think the tables would turn.August 2, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #794823No One SpecialMember
Haleivi, wise commentAugust 2, 2011 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #794824
Halevi – “Health, I don’t understand. If you don’t agree to my point of view, don’t read it!”
True, but I didn’t know that till I did. After that, I like to comment -my view.
If you don’t like what you read in a certain mag/paper, you might not be able not to not read what you already read, but in the future you certainly don’t have to buy/read that mag!
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