Another Shidduch Related Question

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  • #591071
    a nony mus
    Participant

    I was wondering how normal/accepted it is for a possibly future mother-in-law to want a sample of the possible-future daughter-in-law’s handwriting to get it analyzed?

    #675463
    jphone
    Member

    If this mother in law wants to waster her money, she can give it to me. I will charge her half, what the so called expert will charge her.

    #675464
    bombmaniac
    Participant

    um…its INSANE!!! honestly…for heavens sake!!! and people wonder why shidduchim are messed up…its because of madness like that! handwriting analysis?!? honestly! why not just hire a PI to follow the girl around for a month or two…

    #675465
    BEST IMA
    Participant

    Youve got to be joking! I thought ive heard everything. What is this world coming to?

    #675467
    artchill
    Participant

    MUCHO LOCO!!

    #675468
    oomis
    Participant

    If I were that girl, I would run as fast as I can away from that shidduch. It’s hard enough for many girls when the shviger is a normal person. This one sounds like the one who drayed me a kup for a half hour IRRELEVANTLY grilling me about a wonderful girl (her family, her extended family, her extended FAMILY’S extended family) in my community (I was a reference for her), only to tell me after mamesh wasting my time that she is not interested because she hears the girl is short, and she doesn’t want short grandchildren!

    This can only happen when we allow it to. That woman should have been directed to a shrink to get her HEAD analyzed, not the girl’s handwriting!

    #675469
    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Not very normal or accepted.

    #675470
    mybat
    Member

    I like the idea of hiring a PI and following her around for a couple of months…. Is this what we are coming to?????

    Handwriting analysis???

    #675471
    tzippi
    Member

    IF, and I say IF, the mother in law asks for it with full knowledge of the girl, she must provide and pay for her own handwriting sample. (If both are maskim, it’s probably a shidduch 😉

    And heaven help us if she uses an old sample from a yearbook….

    #675473
    oomis
    Participant

    Maybe the girl should take a leaf from the woman and ask for sample of both the mother’s and the son’s writing, since the apple cannot fall so far from that tree!

    #675474
    anuran
    Participant

    Do they also want a cavity search, blood samples, lie detector sessions, phone intercepts and an interview with waterboarding and sodium pentathol?

    EDITED

    #675475

    You cant be seriously asking this question……or can you!?!?!

    As previous posts stated, there is more than enough craziness in shidduchhim as it is.

    Nebach to the son who’s mother requests this….he will one day be an alter bachur (CHAS V’sholom) and his mother will wonder why?

    If the shidduch sounds right, have enough faith in the boy/girl to figure things out on their own. Those of us of a certain age (40+) did so and we have more stable and longer lasting marriages than this next generation. Lets get back to basics.

    #675477
    bombmaniac
    Participant

    heres a shmuz that sums up what should be done quite simply

    http://www.theshmuz.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=Prod&Product_Code=Shmuz_Number_10&Category_Code=

    (disclaimer: the shmuz is an affiliate of chofetz chaim yeshiva and therefore may attempt to brainwash you. personally, the rosh hayeshiva told me im not brainwashed…enjoy)

    #675478
    bpt
    Participant

    I agree with Oomis, but as a parting shot, I would give the mom a note that says “I’m not interestet, but best of luck in finding someone who is” (written of course, in the finest script, so when mom DOES analyze it, she would see what kinf of gem just slipped away.

    Besides, anyone can tell you, a much better measure of a kallah’s true potential is how her potato kugel measures up to her future M-I-L’s kugel! (so I guess my future D-I-L’s have the odds stacked against them.. oh well, with time and practice, I guess she’ll learn the ropes!)

    But all kidding aside, asking for a handwriting sample? Why stop at that? Lets get the girl in front of a new-age pseudo kabbalist who (for a hefty fee) can do his (or her) imitation of the chochmas ha’partzuf (reading of the face, which is mentioned in chumash, but has long since been hidden from us as a usable tool).

    Gee, is this lady nuts. Makes you wonder what possibble issues her boys may need to overcome, once out of the house

    #675479

    A story that R’ Reisman said a few weeks ago at his Motzei Shabbos shiur.

    A talmud once aske Reb Moshe if it was appropriate to ask a potential shidduch to cook him a meal to see what kind of Baala Busta she would be. Reb Moshes’ response was that although halachically acceptable, “es vert Gornished Helfen”. (It wont help you at all).

    We are putting priorities on the wrong things!

    #675480
    bombmaniac
    Participant

    anuran…are you secretly a mod? thats what i submitted earlier…lol

    #675481
    jphone
    Member

    You all misunderstand. Its not her handwriting they want to review, its the shtikel torah, she wrote. That is the sample they asked for.

    #675482
    oomis
    Participant

    “(so I guess my future D-I-L’s have the odds stacked against them.. oh well, with time and practice, I guess she’ll learn the ropes!)”

    Recipes, please!!!!

    #675483
    Lo Yitzloch
    Member

    Very normal and accepted however not by the mother-in-law. I know of some shadchanim and mentors that use this method to help their clients. I know how to read handwritings and I find it very helpful in dealing with people. If it’s used the right way it can be a good tool.

    #675484
    bombmaniac
    Participant

    this coming from lo yitzlach…

    #675485
    anuran
    Participant

    bombomaniac I dont’ think the Powers that Be would be foolish enough to let me moderate anything.

    #675486
    charliehall
    Participant

    I would never have gotten married had my in-laws tried to analyze my handwriting because it is illegible. Thanks HaShem for giving us computers!

    #675489
    anonymrs
    Participant

    i cant even imagine what kind of shtusim will be around by the time my children are old enough to be dating (my oldest is almost three)

    seriously, where have priorities gone? what happened to is he/she a kind, honest, respectful person? will he/she treat my son/daughter with love and respect? is he/she mature enough and selfless enough to take care of a family?

    thats what matters to me. who cares what size she is or what yeshiva he learns in. does he make time in his day to learn? thats good enough for me. does she have a good heart and good midos? thats good enough for me.

    #675490
    mom12
    Participant

    if I would have thought of this 30 yrs ago….

    #675491
    aries2756
    Participant

    When my daughter was dating 13 years ago I thought the questions were ridiculous and out of control then. When was the girl toilet trained? Do they use china and crystal on their shabbos table? I was personally asked where my mother went to school. I answered “Auschwitz” any more questions? there were none!

    The point is what do these ridiculous questions have to do with the quality of the shidduch? What you should be asking is “will s/he make a good spouse for my child? Will s/he make a good parent for my grandchildren? Are his/her parents good role models? Are they baalei chessed and tzedaka? Are they oskei tzibur? How does s/he conduct themselves with children and older people? Is the prospective shidduch involved in chessed? How do they apply the torah they learned to everyday application?

    Those are questions whose answers will tell you what you truly need to know about the potential shidduch and their family. If you want a young lady to set a nice table buy her whatever she will need and she will graciously and most appreciatively use the gifts and follow your lead. If you want her to wear designer clothes take her shopping and indulge her. If a boy needs a little attention in that area that can be done as well. You can’t change a person from the inside out but you can certainly make adjustments from the outside in. What you need to look for is a “lev tov!” That you can’t create, you can’t change and you can’t manufacture. It is either there or not. Anything else you can learn to live with or look away from.

    #675492
    oomis
    Participant

    I think that Aries made some extremely relevant suggestions.

    #675493
    jewishsoul
    Member

    I think many of you misunderstand handwriting analysis if you can compare it to asking about china dishes or schooling. It’s true that the most important questions in a shidduch are regarding a person’s character, and that is exactly what handwriting reveals.

    I do believe that a full-fledged analysis is an invasion of privacy, however a quick check of handwriting for danger signals, would save a lot of heartache with warnings about violent or psychotic tendencies. (Dangerous or abusive people can very often put on a nice front during the dating process, and it is only after marriage that they show their true colors.)

    #675494
    Bodek
    Participant

    Areis, you are so right!

    “If you want her to wear designer clothes take her shopping and indulge her. If a boy needs a little attention in that area that can be done as well. You can’t change a person from the inside out but you can certainly make adjustments from the outside in.”

    i wish my friend would take your advice.

    She just said no to 2 dates in row, because the guys glasses and shoes were’nt cool enough… how am i supposed to tell her wihtout hurting her feelings that she’s a pretty simple girl (style wise – not in quality – thats the best of the best!)from an even simpler family and that a shticky boy is probably looking for an equally cool girl???

    any ideas?

    #675496
    jphone
    Member

    Yes. Tell her to stop dating until she grows up.

    #675497
    bpt
    Participant

    OOmis – My rebbitzin could feed me cardboard, and I would ask for seconds. (well, maybe not seconds, but you get the idea)

    Fact is, we (like all successful couples) learn to grow with one another. ANd work hard to overcome the inevitable roadbumps. This “handwriting bit” is just another example of “I want a guarantee that things will be OK”.

    Sorry, mom, does’nt work that way. Best Bocher and Miss will need to take their knocks just like us oldies did (and sometimes still do!)

    And Jphone – your comment was THE FUNNIEST! (sad, but very funny!)

    #675498
    Just-a-guy
    Member

    I think a major part of what seems unappealing about the request for handwriting analysis is that in asking for it, you are essentially saying we want to see what your handwriting reveals about you that has not already been revealed, what unfortunate things you are hiding from us because while you seem wonderful as far as we can tell, we just don’t trust you. Would you say that instead of asking for a handwriting sample? Not likely.

    #675499
    bombmaniac
    Participant

    you just hit the proverbial nail right on the head!

    #675500
    aries2756
    Participant

    Bodek, what I tell the girls/boys I work with is this. Take a look outside and see who Hashem has put together. Would you ever dream of making such shiduchim? Maybe what YOU have in mind is contradictory to what Hashem actually has in mind for you. Take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself what are you really turning away? What has Hashem sent your way that you have rejected? Maybe you should take another look at what is being presented to you, maybe you have to look closer, maybe you are looking at the wrong things. And I say what I said here, you can’t change a person from the inside out, but the outside is just a cover and covers can be adjusted. Look at the couples Hashem put together Tall with short, fat with skinny, beautiful with plain jane, not every couple is a reflection of each other and yet they seem to be a perfect match. People are not perfect and yet Hashem manages to make perfect shidduchim. How? You have to look beyond the wrapping, stop being so superficial, you need to polish a diamond to make it sparkle.

    #675501
    bombmaniac
    Participant

    beautifully said. i was listening to a shmuz by rabbi shaifer and he said what i think more people should hear…that the idea of your bashert isnt findint someone absolutely perfect. its not that you find 2 people so alike that it just seems to fit. aht a bashert is is the person who perfectly complements you. a person who has maalos to match your chesronos…and that way the couple could constantly work to better themselves.

    (thats not to say you should take a girl with the biggest maalos and pair her with the worlds biggest chesaron…but you get the point)

    #675502
    anuran
    Participant

    Handwriting analysis is a less-than-worthless bit of pseudo-science with no theoretical or quantitative basis.

    I say “less-than-worthless” because it causes believers to place credence in it when they could pay attention to things that provide useful intelligence.

    #675503
    jewishsoul
    Member

    anuran-how much research have you done to backup that statement?

    #675505
    aries2756
    Participant

    in all fairness, I think that anyone that starts the nonsense should be prepared to give as much as they ask. So if you are asking for a handwriting analysis on a prospective young lady (which I still think is uncalled for) then be prepared with an analysis of your son’s handwriting. Keep in mind that most boy’s handwriting is barely legible, nonetheless be prepared to hand it over first if you ask for it from the other side.

    Be prepared to give over the same answers on your child and yourselves that you ask about the other side. They have the absolute right to know everything about you and your child as you want to know about them and their child.

    #675506
    jphone
    Member

    The first 2 things handwriting analysis will tell you about a person is that they are desperate and gullible.

    #675507
    oomis
    Participant

    I am less concerned with someone’s penmanship than with what he actually has to say in the things he writes.

    #675508
    eli lev
    Participant

    great idea. but ofcourse make sure the analyst is top in the field.

    i know of people who did it,& were very happy they did. but u got to be mature about whats what.

    #675509
    oomis
    Participant

    So what’s the next logical step, palm reading and phrenology (reading of the bumps in the skull)? These pseudo-sciences are very dangerous, in my opinion. I would rather gather my intel in the normal way. Spend enough time with the person to see what that person is really like. Sometimes one will make a mistake in judgment, but handwriting analysis is largely a judgment call, too.

    #675510
    anuran
    Participant

    jewishsoul, as always, the burden of proof is on the one making outlandish claims. In this case the outlandish claim is that handwriting analysis tells you all the deep and significant things the True Believers say it does.

    First, there is no theoretical basis for the belief. I mean that in the strict scientific sense where theory means an explanation with predictive power that is so well established in evidence that it can be assumed accurate for most purposes and which gives insight into the mechanisms underlying the phenomenon.

    Second, it’s been trashed and thrashed for decades by the usual skeptic crew from Martin Gardner and James Randi on. The apologists have never done, say properly designed blind studies with controls. Like most cranks they’re long on anecdote, short on evidence.

    The kind of money a “professional” charges for something like this could pay for a date or two and a couple drinks poured into a relative of the girl or boy in question. That would give actual useful information like a few hours of direct experience with the person and an alcohol-loosened opinion from someone who has known the subject for his or her entire life. That’s inteligence you can actually use.

    #675511
    jewishsoul
    Member

    I see the benefits of a graphological analysis as part of the shidduch vetting process because it tells you the character of the person at the time. Palm reading does not tell you that, it only predicts the future. Phrenology and physiognomy tell you only the traits a person is born with, also irrelevant. (Recall the story with Moshe Rabbeinu and the foreign king.)

    From the research I’ve done, there seems to be plenty of theoretical basis for belief. I haven’t conducted any studies myself, but I have always gotten accurate results in accordance with the established beliefs when I applied them.

    I don’t know if graphology can ever be described as a science. We can surmise that a specific stroke means dishonesty, for example, because 95% of crooks have that stroke. The same goes for cruelty. But is there a way to prove it? A personality trait can never be proven. We are not dealing with physical science that follow the laws of nature, we are dealing with the intricacies of human nature.

    I am defending the validity of graphology here, not actively promoting its use in shidduchim. (And though I wouldn’t ask for a handwriting sample from a potential marriage prospect, I would be glad if I had the opportunity to see one.)

    I believe an individual’s handwriting is a perfect reflection of his essence, with each pen stroke representing another facet. The only legitimate question would be if we are interpreting these strokes correctly. And that is a discussion for another time.

    #675512
    oomis
    Participant

    ” see the benefits of a graphological analysis as part of the shidduch vetting process because it tells you the character of the person at the time. Palm reading does not tell you that, it only predicts the future. Phrenology and physiognomy tell you only the traits a person is born with, also irrelevant. (Recall the story with Moshe Rabbeinu and the foreign king.) “

    Oy Vey! Did you think I was serious????? Uh…no.

    #675513
    anuran
    Participant

    Jewishsoul…

    Palmistry? Phrenology?

    Please, please tell me you’re joking.

    #675514
    jewishsoul
    Member

    No, I am not well versed in those subjects. I was commenting on them by virtue of their definition. 🙂

    You can all relax.

    #675515
    boysmom
    Participant

    I think handwriting is very popular in Israel. I personally know someone who did this and after she got divorced she found out that the handwriting sample she got wasn’t even written by her ex! If you believe in it and want to get it right you better make sure that the writing is witnessed..

    #675516
    bombmaniac
    Participant

    and how did marriages happen back before this ridiculous practice…?

    #675518
    eli lev
    Participant

    to bombaniac

    & how did many more people have better sh. bayis & less divorces? & how did they live without computers… cellphones? & how did….!! get it??

    #675519
    aries2756
    Participant

    If you are looking for perfection it isn’t out there. No one is perfect except for Hashem. I only wish mothers would stop thinking up new and more outlandish obstacles to put the poor girls through in their never ending quest to find the best! The only thing you wind up doing is wasting years of your son’s life, years of his happiness. Just go ask the older singles about their stories.

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