January 15, 2010 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #675520bombmaniacParticipant
yes, but cellphones and computers arent mishegass…it is not a mishegass to work on a computer…or call people with a cellphone…it IS mishegass to ask for a handwriting sample to find out if the prospective shidduch is really an axe murderer…January 15, 2010 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #675521positiveaynayimMember
Maybe instead of the boys mother getting her handwriting analyzed, she should just……..meet the girl? Many times the mother of the chosson meets her son’s kallah right before or even at the l’chayim. So, maybe it would be (out of the box) a good idea for her to meet the girl somehow and get an opportunity to use her bina yesaira that way.January 17, 2010 3:25 am at 3:25 am #675522
I just want to remind all you mothers out there. These “prospective” daughters-in-law who you are putting through the ringer in the dating process will not forget what you put them through when they are the wives of your sons and mothers of your grandchildren that you chalash to see. So don’t be so full of yourselves in your need to know, and your quest for the best. In the end you will have exactly what Hashem picked for your son. However, the relationship you will have with your daughter-in-law is out of his hands and completely in yours.January 17, 2010 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #675523
Aries makes a very good point. There is often friction between a woman and her daughter in law. The mother wants what’s best for her son and doesn’t believe a girl young enough to be, well, her daughter can possibly get it right. The bride has a tough enough job setting up her new household and resents the interference. That’s when the courtship has gone well. If the girl has been put through the wringer it’s going to be even worse. The level of resentment on her part and nit-picking on the part of the in laws make a happy marriage very unlikely.
Me? I was lucky. My parents were dead-set against us getting married, especially my mother. Afterwards she warmed up miraculously. I asked my wife what happened.
She said “We had a territorial fight. I won. She accepted her defeat graciously.”
Like the insightful observer of human relations that most young men are I wittily replied “Huh?”
“You were the territory, honey.”
The family a man came from is his past. The family he makes and the woman he makes it with are his future. Parents do not always accept this simple truth.January 17, 2010 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #675524
Positiveaynayim and Aries2756 both make salient points, and their opinions should read and re-read. It really is not fair that the girl’s parents get to meet the boy, but the boy’s parents do not get to meet the girl, sometimes as PosA pointed out, until the l’chaim. After 4 dates or so, the boy SHOULD bring the girl around to meet his parents. And mothers of boys, try to remember how you felt about your own mother-in-law. If she was obnoxious to you, do you really want your future D-I-L to feel that way about you, too? And if she was an absolute doll, would you not want your son’s wife to say that to their children some day about you, too? My husband and I were both very lucky – our respective in-laws were amazing and loving, a real second set of parents to us. My children are even luckier, because that is how we treat THEIR respective spouses.January 17, 2010 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #675525youdontknowmeMember
I once brought a girl to meet my parents after 5 dates, at the girl’s request, and I can’t say I would recommend it to anyone else. The problem was not b/c my parents were putting her through the ringer, they trust me to decide if a girl is for me or not. The difference between boys and girls meeting perspective in-laws in my opinion is that boys are usually not looking for anything in their in-laws they only care about the girl. On the other hand girls (at least some of them) have an idea in their head of exactly how their married life should be and how everything is going to be perfect so when they feel a little uncomfortable when meeting their possible future in-laws it’s a much bigger deal to them.January 17, 2010 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #675526mom12Participant
my goodness..what is this shiduch scene coming too?
One thing if one does give there handwriting, make sure u get a sample of the boys and his mothers in return ..to be paid for by the boys mom!!January 17, 2010 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #675527jphoneMember
If someone asks for handwriting sample to submit for analysis, ask them for a urine and blood sample, you want to make sure they don’t carry any disease.January 17, 2010 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #675528
So you don’t make such a big deal out fo the “meeting the boy’s parents.” You tell the girl, I would like to swing by my parents to say hello, before we go out. Just introduce her, and don’t stay more than five minutes. They have the right to see her, just as her parents saw him. And if they are already going out five times, it is not just a “casual” acquaintance anymore, there is potential there.January 17, 2010 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #6755291hockerParticipant
Just beleive (davening helps too) in Hashem, and it will be for our best!!!February 19, 2010 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #675534YW Moderator-80Member
A common mistake when making a model airplane is to start by putting glue all over the parts. That just creates a mess. The wrong bits get stuck together, wings get stuck to the floor, windows stuck on your fingers. It only complicates things when you introduce the glue too early.
The way to build a model airplane is to first organize the parts. Make sure the pieces fit together and nothing is missing. Then gradually apply the glue, and join the various parts, piece by piece, until it starts to take shape.
The parts may not fit perfectly at first. You may have to shave off some rough edges, or bend some parts into shape before they click. Minor imperfections can be overlooked – a dollop of glue can fix them up. With a bit of work it all comes together.
But if you find that there are parts missing, or they don’t fit, then you don’t have what it takes to make an airplane. You can’t use glue to join mismatched pieces, and certainly not to replace missing parts. Don’t even try, just look for a better model.February 19, 2010 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #675535
It has been a month since this question was posted. I am wondering what happened. Did you ask for the handwriting analysis? Did the kids go out????? What was the outcome?February 21, 2010 6:35 am at 6:35 am #675536a nony musParticipant
I was actually the girl in the situation. (I should probably add, for all those who say just meet the parents, this was actually at a meeting with the parents. I met them for over an hour, and they still took the handwriting.)Yes, the mother took a piece of paper with my handwriting. Yes, I went out with the boy once, and No, I will never think of going out with him again. Next, please.February 21, 2010 7:13 am at 7:13 am #675537
Miss Mus, may we please see a sample of your handwriting, so we can decide if you may continue to post in this forum?February 21, 2010 8:17 am at 8:17 am #675538
Ms. Mus, good for you. You saved yourself a lot of grief later in life. What could you expect from a potential mother-in-law like that. Or from a son who wouldn’t say “Ma, that’s ridiculous!”February 21, 2010 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #675539
Didn’t King David have the charechteristic of a murderer – so if back in the day someone would have anaylized his handwriting his would say murderer? Crazy! He was able to channel his charechter for the good, Mus that would make 1 crazy MILFebruary 22, 2010 12:17 am at 12:17 am #675540
a nony mus, So as a young lady in the parsha, how do you feel about the questions, the crisis and so forth? What made you decide to give the handwriting sample?February 22, 2010 12:29 am at 12:29 am #675541
I give you credit for even giving the sample. I would have asked Prince Charming to take me home immediately, thanked his crazy mother for her eye-opening hospitality, and immediately called the shadchan upon arriving home, to warn him or her about this shviger from you know where. And btw, where was “MR. Shviger” in all this – did he agree with his wife’s actions? If not and he still let her do it, it does not ever bode well for this young man’s future wife, if any can be found to write “right.”February 22, 2010 3:07 am at 3:07 am #675543
What kind of “man” asks a young woman “My mother asked me to ask you for a sample of your handwriting?” What was she supposed to answer “and did she tell you what time I should send you home as well?”February 22, 2010 3:12 am at 3:12 am #675544
I just reread the young lady’s post. I never believed in having a young lady meet the boy’s parents up front. I find it too nerve-wracking for a young woman and a grueling situation which is totally unnecessary until you know if the dating process is going anywhere. Since the boys usually have the upper hand in this game, it is even more hurtful when a girl goes to the trouble of meeting the boy and his parents and then gets dumped.
A young man in the dating parsha, should be mature enough to go on his first date alone, with out shomrim. If he cannot stand up to his parents and say “no” and cannot stand up to his parents and say “you are not going to embarrass me by……” then he is not mature enough to date.
I actually thought that the prospective mother-in-law was going to ask for the handwriting sample from the shadchan before the kids went out. Although I think the whole idea is ridiculous, that would have been the least humiliating way to do it.February 22, 2010 5:30 am at 5:30 am #675545
at what stage of the shidduch process do you start to worry about genetic testing, such as Tay Sachs tests?February 22, 2010 5:39 am at 5:39 am #675547haifagirlParticipant
You should do the genetic testing before the first date. That is, if you are going to do genetic testing.February 22, 2010 5:51 am at 5:51 am #675548
Don’t most rabbis require Tay Sachs testing before they will perform a wedding?February 22, 2010 6:16 am at 6:16 am #675549potsandpansMember
I was actually wondering the same…what is the norm today? when do they check up on the test results to see if there’s no genetic problems with the match? right before they are engaged or before they start dating? from personal experience it was done before getting engaged…but I wonder what other people do?February 22, 2010 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #675550
Nobody REQUIRES anything, at least not yet. It is a good idea, however, to be tested for genetically passed illnesses, and Dor Yesharim is a great way to do so. HOWEVER, they do not test for everything, and sometimes genes that could be problematic are missed. I have a friend whose child has a baby with a non-life-threatening condition but one which will always cause the child a problem,, and there is a 25% chance of it being passed down to every child they will have. Totally unknown to them, the mother and the father each had a gene that causes a certain condition, but it would never have been tested for its presence, and is definitely not tested for by D”Y, though I think it should be, as they test for so many other things.
I don’t know if D”Y should be called every time a shidduch is proposed, but it should surely be checked up after the first date, if the couple wants to go to a second one. Not everyone is tested by D”Y, or needs to be, but I personally think it is a good idea.February 22, 2010 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #675551
Aries, absolute agreement here.
If a young man can’t share a drink with a young woman without someone (else) to hold his hand he probably isn’t ready to start dating.
As for meeting the parents, yes. An eighteen year old who is just getting to know a young man is going to have a hard time standing up to the scrutiny. She’s in a strange place with whom she has an undefined relationship. He will be obliged to defer to his parents who are going to be hyper-critical of the new girl. I can’t see any way it could turn out well for either of them. If the families already know each other it’s different, of course.February 22, 2010 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #675552
I encourage everyone who wants to start dating to immediately go for the D’or Yeshorim test if they have not already done it in school. That is step #1. Take the card they give you and put it with your important things like birth certificate, social security card etc. When you need it you will have it.
I don’t believe in checking before dating, nor do I believe in checking till after the 3rd date. If you are ready to go on a 4th date that is the time to check because your hearts are not yet involved yet there is enough interest to see whether you should continue. Doing so too early on will just be a discouraging situation for all, add tension and basically is for naught. Many shiduchim don’t go past the 4th date, so checking before a second date is a waste of anxiety.February 22, 2010 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #675553
please tell me what D’or Yeshorim is/does.
Thanks.February 22, 2010 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #675554
D’or Yeshorim is an organization that has implemented a lab to test the blood of both boys and girls for various factors and diseases that can be detrimental to a child. The original cause was a Tai Sachs a debilitating neurological disease that effects babies in a horrendous way. They never develop real motor skills, can’t crawl, walk or even turn over on their own. Most of these babies don’t live past a few years.
When D”Y tests the results of the blood tests they can determine if the boy and girl should continue in the shidduch or if their blood DNA might bring about a horrific disease in their children and therefore stop dating. Many people carry different disease markers in their genes but for many illnesses both parents have to carry the gene such as Tai Sachs. So it is perfectly fine if either parent is a carrier but if both are carriers the D”Y will say stop the shidduch.
In addition please know that NAMES are never used when calling into D”Y for checking. Everyone who takes the test is given a card with a number on it. When you call in the person will give the NUMBERS and birth of both the boy and the girl. Someone will later call back and speak to the same person for the Yes or NO.February 22, 2010 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #675555
Aries, this group does a lot of good work. It might be better to go with a service that will actually tell you if you are a carrier and if so for what. If a boy has, say, Huntington’s chorea a simple “This marriage should not happen” is not enough. There are profound implications for that person ever getting married or having children not to mention issues surrounding that person’s future health.February 23, 2010 12:27 am at 12:27 am #675556
Just to add to the previous comment…
We don’t know exactly what DY’s standards are. Which disease markers in common are a “no”? Even among experts the recommendations often vary. To only way to make a good decision on something this important is with full knowledge of the facts and a chance to consult with a knowledgeable doctor and rabbi. Without the facts it is impossible to take advantage of their wisdom and experience.February 23, 2010 12:34 am at 12:34 am #675557classofTASHAMMember
Another shidduch related question-when is it an appropriate time for the boy’s parents to come meet the girl? What do you think of a meeting before a first date, and then telling the shadchan sorry we don’t see it?? Reg yeshivish style familyFebruary 23, 2010 12:47 am at 12:47 am #675558
anuran, D”Y is in constant contact with Daas Torah and before getting back to anyone, in the event that they have to return a no, they ask what to do and it is done with the utmost care and compassion. In addition I am quite sure that if there is danger discovered in the blood they will inform the client to see a doctor.
COT, I don’t ever believe parents should meet a girl before the first date. I believe if a boy is ready for marriage he should be ready to handle the dating process himself and not rely on his parents’ opinion. Secondly, if you did that the parents could be dating as much as the boy himself.
The time to meet the parents is when the couple decide there is something there and things are coming to a decision (engagement) very soon. If the boy feels that he needs his parents permission to marry a girl and that if they say “no” he will drop her, then he and his parents need to decide at what point in the shidduch process they need to meet her. This should be relayed to the girl before she agrees to go out with him.February 23, 2010 4:30 am at 4:30 am #675559
D”Y tests for I believe 11-13 (not sure of the precise number) of genetic conditions that someone may be carrying, i.e. Tay Sachs, Gaucher’s Disease, etc. They will not tell someone what genes they carry, they will only tell the two parties involved if i.e., #428 and number #957 are genetically compatible(based solely on the genetic markers for which they test, but as I pointed out before, there may be other conditions for which they do NOT test, because they are possibly not life-threatening, or too rare to be cost-effective for testing purposes). My understanding is that they do not want to tell people what conditions they may carry, because it could be very upsetting to know you have a gene for say, Tay Sachs. People tend to forget that carrying a gene is not the same as having a disease. By discouraging kids with certain genetically transmitted ilness from marrying, those conditions can be eradicated completely, and eventually, perhaps even the gene will no longer exist, because every pregnancy carries the possibility that the person is not only free of the diease, but also NOT a carrier. If they are not carriers, they cannot pass that genetic condition onto another child,
even as a carrier.
As to the question of when the girl should meet the boy’s parents or the parents to meet the girl, however you want to express it, I feel that after five or six dates, it would be appropriate, as there clearly seems to be SOMETHING in the works. My daughter actually met her future in-laws VERY soon after she and my son-in-law began dating. it just worked out that way, he had to stop off at his house and she went in with him, when the family was all there. It was love at first sight on all sides, and the rest is history. And yes, we love our son-in-law the same as they love her. B”H.February 23, 2010 9:20 am at 9:20 am #675561a nony musParticipant
Just to clarify things: I had met the parents (both mother and father) before they even agreed for me to go out with their precious son. The boy was not present at the time.
I usually do not voice my opinions very loudly but since I was asked a direct question, I will try to answer it. I was asked my opinions on the shidduch crisis. My answer:
In my, ever so humble, opinion it is not a crisis. It is more of a stupidity. People have stopped using their heads when it comes to shidduchim. Instead, they’d rather blame things like: the age gap or whatever. Unfortunately, too many people are seeing things in black and white. Everything and everybody has to have a place and it can’t be moved once being put there. People don’t seem to realize that not only is there gray also, but Hashem also created a wonderful world of color. Don’t you think that if we were supposed to think in black and white, the world would be black and white? But we have color and shades and hues and no one is the same. That’s what makes the world go round.
I can’t help thinking how stupid it is when people will say no to a shidduch on the most absurd grounds. He/she is from out of town. He/she didn’t go the exact yeshiva/seminary we want. He/she wasn’t on G.O. He/she is too fat/skinny/short/tall… Their married children send their kids to the wrong schools in Lakewood. He doesn’t wear his jacket (white shirt, yes, but not a jacket) when shopping in Home Depot. He/she doesn’t use cloth tablecloths. She doesn’t make more than 50,000 a year. He won’t commit to exactly 6.4 years of learning after they get married. The list goes on and on.
Once you’ve finally found a girl who is not bigger than a size 0, is described by everyone as being drop-dead gorgeous, between the heights of 5’5″ and 5’6″ has a great job making $80,000 a year, has parents who are willing to support for as long as the boy is going to learn (probably 6.4 years) and is more than willing to be a kollel wife, you still have to make sure that the parents of the girl is willing to buy your *special* son. So many parents are putting prices on their children. When did the shidduch scene become an open-air market? Shouldn’t you be more interested in gaining a new son/daughter rather than how much you can sell your child for?
Another issue, is the fact that parents and children don’t always communicate. Or even if the parents know that the boy isn’t looking for a BJJ graduate, or the girl isn’t looking for a learning boy, the parents still have to look for that because that’s what is considered good. There is such a stigma against boys who aren’t learning or girls who work in a real job instead of just pretending to get a degree in special ed that they’re never going to use. Not all boys are learners. I know some boys who are working before marriage whose middos are on such a higher level than some learning boys, that it is scary. Just because you have the label as a “learner” that doesn’t mean that you are a good boy. But of course all boys have to say their learners and all girls have to want to live the “kollel” life because that is the accepted thing.
Only after marriage do so many couple realize that they really aren’t compatible besides for the fact that they both *wanted* the kollel life. And the 6 dates don’t help much since too many boys and girls don’t know how to talk to each other, so even on the dates they can’t. There are so many divorces occurring now, and this is one of the reasons why.
So for the crisis: Stop blaming people. Stop putting name-tags. Stop saying no for stupid reasons (the out of town one really irks me. Just a few years ago it was 2o times harder for people to fly across country or the world to see each other yet so many between-city shidduchim were still made. Now that it is the generation of “instant gratification” if it takes a little bit more time or effort, forget about it. And no, out-of-towners are not hicks, we’re normal people who are just as frum as you in-towners, if not frumer.) Take off your blinders and things might just snap into place.
(Like I said, I usually don’t give my opinions like this, but I guess once I started it was kind-of hard to stop. Please excuse me if I rambled on. And I hope I didn’t insult anybody. This post is a general post to no one in particular.)February 23, 2010 11:35 am at 11:35 am #675562irMember
classofTasham – that’s a very sad story. I know of yeshivish families where the parents of the boy meet the girl on the first day in order to help their son through the process, never in order to nix a shidduch before it even gets off the ground.February 23, 2010 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #675563
If a boy needs to be “helped through the process” he is too young for the process, and should wait to date until he is grown up enough to go out without needing his parents’ (read: Mommy’s) help.February 24, 2010 4:16 am at 4:16 am #675564
Wow, dear a nony mus, I am awed by your eloquence and the clarity of your vision. I couldn’t have said it better myself, so I will now stop typing.February 24, 2010 5:02 am at 5:02 am #675565
A nony mus – props to you for a cogent and well-thought-out post.February 24, 2010 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #675566jewish and working 22Member
a nony mus:
I agree 100%.February 24, 2010 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #675567
There are varieties of various ways to things and not one set standard.
When it comes to whether something is right or wrong, it is quite black and white.
What ‘looks’ grey only looks that way to someone who does not know how to separate out the good from the bad sincve it all mixed these days.
But just like grey picture in a newspaper is made up of black dots on a white background and the grey is darkler or lighter depending on how many black dots there are per square inch so to the apparant grey in right vs wrong, is really make of black and white fine details all mixed in together.
There may be 20 different routes to get from Brooklyn to southern New Jersey and it is not wrong to drive there but it is wrong to drive there over the speed limit and certainly wrong to steal a car to drive there.
Someone might say “what if it’s ife and death and stealing a car is the only to save the life”.
Well what if the car that was stolen was rushing organs to the airport to fly to someone who needed a transplant in Pennsylvania and unless those organs got there in an hour, they would spoil and be useless and the patient would die?
Obviously stealing is wrong, no matter how you slice it.
Right and wrong are clearly black and white.February 24, 2010 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #675568
anonymrs – I agree 100% .
hereorthere – are you trying to say that there is a right seminary/yeshiva/color or type of tablecloth?!?February 25, 2010 12:37 am at 12:37 am #675569
shev143 absolutely not, I am not saying that one particular seminary/yeshiva/color or type of tablecloth, is the ‘one true right one’.
But I am saying that there is a right way to teach students, and that is the Torah way, anything else is wrong and there are no ‘grey’ areas to wonder if “Perhaps in this case (whatever case you want to talk about or think about), following Torah might not be so good”.
That idea is always wrong, and it’s is clear cut Black and White.February 25, 2010 12:50 am at 12:50 am #675570
were you responding to anonymrs post – because I don’t think what you’re saying is relevent. Otherwise could you be more specific? thanksFebruary 26, 2010 12:14 am at 12:14 am #675571jewish and working 22Member
I do believe that you are mistaken. The world, including the Torah world, is made up of MOSTLY gray areas with very little defined “black” and “white”.
Throughout Tenach, there are plethora of examplees where it is mutar to do something that would be considered to be “wrong”. And the Rabbonim all ponder these actions and must come to decisions. There are very little black and white areas that are completely wrong.February 28, 2010 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #675573ihearMember
I heard a similar story where the potential mil asked if the boys head is round or more ovalMarch 1, 2010 8:56 am at 8:56 am #675574
jewishandworking22 that sounds contradictory, could you give examples please?
Also if there is no righht and wrong then what good is learning Halacha or trying to do mitzvohs?March 1, 2010 9:39 am at 9:39 am #675575
Where the Rabbonim come to decisions, they have sifted out the black from the white and told us what is right and what is wrong.March 1, 2010 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #675576
Here or there with halacha there might be a right and wrong, but even then look at some of the different threads here – some rabbis say to drink on Purim some say don’t. In any case people here were mentioning things that people look at for shidduchim that are most definitely not halacha – which seminary/yeshiva, kollell is also not the only right way. So as anonymrs has said the crisis is because at least partly due to peoples own stupidityMarch 1, 2010 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #675577
Shev143; My guess would be that even those who say drink on Purim would not say to get stone drunk to the point of vomiting and certainly not to drive while intoxicated.
In the case of getting drunk that is what is clearly wrong, and I do not know of any Rav who would say otherwise.
As for shidduchim you are right.
I just wanted to make it clear that when it comes to Halacha, what is mutar or assur, there certainly is a right and wrong and when it ‘looks’ grey, it siomply need to be looked at more closely or looked at by a Rav who can sift out the black from the white tell an individual “You should do (whatever he says) in this case”.
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