July 25, 2021 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1994450July 25, 2021 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1994449
AAQ, I was born after Horthy’s rule in January of 1948, who abdicated to the Arrow Cross October 15, 1944. Whether he was anti-semite see momentmag dot com/horthy-jews-budapest/July 25, 2021 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1994458
AAQ, we did not rely on the farmer but watched him milk the cow usung our pale.July 25, 2021 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1994464
I’m not sure why my post wasn’t accepted, but just bekitzur
We don’t have a chiyuv nowadays to go to eretz yisroel, the bnei yisroel did during the time of the meraglim.
The most prominent rishon who holds there is a chiyuv nowadays is the ramban, who brings the 3 oaths in maamar al hageulah, prohibiting mass immigration or armed force in taking eretz yisroel.
Also, it’s hypocritical to say that anti Zionists are anti eretz yisroel and are too comfortable in galus when the majority of religious zionist supporters are much more comfortable in the upper east side etc
Chait Meraglim was kochi veotzem yadi, much like the Zionists, just invertedJuly 25, 2021 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1994495
Avira, and the other antiZ here, don’t feel so isolated. You sound like choni who fell asleep 70 years ago, while ruled by a government of socialists and communists… Look around at the current Israeli society: lots of religious Jews, some Z, some not, you may disagree with them on many issues, but you can’t say that Hashem wouldn’t want shomer shabbat community in EY
Then, there are traditional Sephardim who respect bet knesset and who were not part of those who hurt you 70 years ago. Add Russian Jews, people who escaped 80 years without shul, yeshivas, subsidies for being Jewish – things that you think are a must to be Jewish and some non Jews who were tzadikim enough to marry Jews in an anti semitic country, and not responsible for Zionism either, plus Arabs who would be there anyway, are even more antiZ than you. With all of them, you have a slither of commies who live in a different city, and who exist in any country except Saudi Arabia… Feel goodJuly 25, 2021 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1994589
Avira, Moshe Rabbenu wanted the meraglim to see the strenght of the residing nations to realize that they need Hashem’s help to conquer them and they cannot do it on their own. According to the Malbim originally every shevet was sent to see the good and what land is their preference, lasur but they changed their mission, leragel seeing the bad its deficiency by thinking that they themselves need to conquer it. Maybe they felt they exhausted their zechusim to be helped but Hashem provides a matnas chinom, free hand even though currently no zechusim exist.July 26, 2021 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1994734EvalimoshavloParticipant
Avira, you keep on proving my point! If Jews are not allowed to come to EY en masse then why are you so annoyed at the zionists that didn’t bring the Jews of Europe to the safe shores of Israel during the war. The zionists helped the frum jews not to defy the 3 oaths by coming en masse.
Chait hameraglim is kochi votzem yadi is a great one!!! How did you dream that one up? The sin was rejecting EY, Hashem’s gift for us. How are you different than them? Just spouting hate against others.
And why do you compare yourself to others?
AAQ is right! You are stuck in the past! suffering the ostrich syndrome!
Why is Hashem sending anti – semitism? I don’t know but maybe it’s time to pack your bags and come HOME.July 26, 2021 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1994792commonsaychelParticipant
@Eval “Why is Hashem sending anti – semitism? I don’t know but maybe it’s time to pack your bags and come”
Or maybe its a message that moshicah is not here yet and stay putJuly 26, 2021 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #1994828
If there’s ever an ostrich syndrome…you claim to not know why there’s abyi semitism…we have very clear mesorah as to why – read the poem! It’s all about thatJuly 26, 2021 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1994827
Let me get this straight…the zionists abandoning jews who were not both young and of their philosophy, cooperating with Nazis to save their own skin and let the European frum jews literally burn..
Are you actually comparing that – even facetiously – to the 3 oaths? You’re not at all bothered by that murderous act? America would have been a viable destination had the zionist leadership said “no! Only to Palestine!”
Who says israel would have been safe? Rommel was 2 days away from eretz yisroel. If not for how the frummer responded, they could have wiped out everyone in a matter of hours.
As to dismissing pashut pshat with laitzonus…. let’s just read the bible. It says that they thought of themselves as grasshoppers in the eyes of the canaanim. They said they are stronger than us. They were afraid of fighting them. Yes, there was an element of ingratitude, but let’s not forget the expression they all shared when they said chazal hu mimenu. That is the inverse of kochi veotzem yadi, it is the belief that your strength – or lack thereof – is kf consequence and should dictate your behavior. It is the belief that it is not Hashem who gives us the koach laasos chayil, but rather our “uzi”, an aptly named israeli firearm. My point was that the meraglim had that element in them, just as the zionists do. They were given a mitzvah, and they should have had the bitachon of the chashmonaim and went to fight anyway.
I’m interested in going “home” when I go to the beis medrash. The chasam sofer says that avira de’ara, (my screename!) Applies in batei medrash. The Torah is my home, and it is portable throughout the generations and the exiles. If Israel fell apart tomorrow, those of you who invested your identity and judaism in jt would be crushed… most would perhaps go off the derech entirely.
We would simply observe and continue to march on, whether we live in eretz yisroel under Israeli, American, UN, or ottoman rule, or if we live in chutz laaretz. I feel home because I have Torah. Sure, I want moshiach to come so we can have the beis hamikdash and have the world acknowledge Hashem, but in the meantime, I can serve Him just fine until that time comes, bemhayroh veyameinu amen.July 27, 2021 11:10 am at 11:10 am #1994547
AAQ – I’m not arguing philosophy like people did years ago, I’m answering the assertion that i am doing something wrong by living in America during galus. I’ve lived in eretz yisroel, and yes, the situation of jews living there has radically changed in the past few decades. I’ve lived in eretz yisroel and the Torah community is flourishing. I can even respect the adherence to mitzvos of the religious zionist community, lacking and incomplete as it may be.
That doesn’t mean the dangers of zionism are defeated just because its progenitors are dead. it doesn’t mean that we must be negligent in protecting the same innocent and uneducated populations that you mentioned; we must stop the government from making Hebrew Nationals out of them and instead show them the light of Torah, whether or not the powers that be are guilty or just raised wrong, or if those powers wear fabric on their head or not bears little weight on the tactics and necessity of saving the disenfranchised populations from zionist assimilation
Having frum jews in eretz yisroel was never contentious; actually, the only opposition came from those who were worried that if frummer yidden settled there, it would strengthen the zionists or that they may be influenced by them. The gedolei yisroel did not agree with that position by and large, and places like komemius and kibutz chofetz chaim, along with the yishuv hayashan testify yo the purity of their motivation.July 27, 2021 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1995059
Avira, I don’t care of arguing where people should live as long it is not Cuba or China, we have bigger problems than that. I quoted Chofetz Chaim before why he didn’t go to EY to avoid making Mishna Berurah political. (He obviously cared about both groups). He also made an utmost effort to get out of Soviet Russia, and then thought that he was wrong as all Rabbis abandoned the remaining Jews… Thetr is also teshuva by r Grozdinski in 1940 Vilno right before USSR occupied and Nazis on Polish border: which Rabbis should get Sugihara visas: older ones who will be arrested immediately, or younger ones whose children will be sent to Soviet schools and be lost. What would you say?July 27, 2021 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1995061GotAGoodPointParticipant
Fir the information of those who have realsied by now how anti-tzioni i am –
i DID do aliya, and I DO vote –
not because i believe in the Medina, but precisely because i do NOT.
I want to counter their force (together with other Cheredim) in the most effective way possible….
I hope my fellow anti-ztionists will follow suit.
If all of us would vote, we would be in a better position with regard to Kashrus, Giyur, Shabbos, Yeshivos and the Army, Funding etc. etc.July 27, 2021 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1995064GotAGoodPointParticipant
I feel home because I have Torah. Sure, I want moshiach to come so we can have the beis hamikdash and have the world acknowledge Hashem, but in the meantime, I can serve Him just fine until that time comes, bemhayroh veyameinu amen.
Avira – You may feel that it’s fine to carry on serving Hashem from where you are, and i’m not going to encourage you to came to EY. I can’t say with certainty that i would live here if it entailed mesirus nefesh. But i CAN say with certainty that the gedolim (and poshute Yidden) thoughout the ages did NOT agree with the sentiment you express, ie that it’s perfectly fine to sit out Golus in a goyshe Medina doing Avodas Hashem. They literally risked their lives to come and live in EY.
Whether it was the mitzva of Yishuv EY, or the Mitzvos Hateluyos bo’Oretz, or the Kedusha of EY – i don’t know, probably all of the above, but the fact is that the Gaon, The Chafetz Chaim, the Maharil Diskin and hundreds, or thousands of Yidden left everything behind, their shtelles, their seforim, their families, their parosso and travelled for months, in the boiling sun, thought rain and snow, on rickety boats – all to come and live in EY.
BUt you suggest that serving Hashem in America or Europe is perfectly fine, it’s ideal.
I’m controlling myself from all the sarcastic, comments my fingers are itching to bang out, but to say that you ‘can serve Him just fine until that time comes’, sounds somewhat erroneous.July 28, 2021 9:35 am at 9:35 am #1995179
There’s a reason why half of the amoraim were not moser nefesh to come to eretz yisroel, nor were most rishonim or achronim. Every tzadik has mitzvos that they are more tied to and that they are moser nefesh for. The gedolei yisroel throughout the generations have NOT championed moving to eretz yisroel for everyone, or even for most people. The gaon sent his prized talmidim to go; he also encouraged rav chaim volozhiner to stay. Eretz yisroel is part of a cheshbon in overall avodah for many tzadikim, but it wasn’t as if they all were itching to go but couldn’t for practical reasons. The baalei tosfos were just fine where they were, as were the chasidei ashkenaz, sefardim and taimonim who never expressed much interest to go even at the behest of Ezra (this was a mistake on their part). There were no laws barring jews from living in EY at any of those times. Immigration quotas only started under the British.
Many, probably the majority of the rishonim hold that there’s no chiyuv; rabbeinu chananel holds there’s no mitzvah at all bizman galus. I think i have a few hundred mitzvos to worry about that are full chiyuvim before i start thinking about yishuv eretz yisroel. Some also hold that the main mitzvah is owning land thereby extricating goyim from it, that’s shitas harivash.
As far as kedushas haaretz, that’s a reason not to go. What we do wrong in chutz”l will be judged harsher in EY. That’s been a fear of many tzadikim. There are tons of mekoros about this in vayoel noshe; I used to know a ton more about this issue in my bochurisher years, when in yeshiva I was “the hashkafa guy”.July 28, 2021 9:35 am at 9:35 am #1995180
Also, the chofetz chaim did not live in eretz yisroel…neither did the Gaon.July 29, 2021 12:32 am at 12:32 am #1995498
We must act differently in EY, in rhe palace of the King.July 29, 2021 12:32 am at 12:32 am #1995501
Yrs, list of those who allegedly moved to EY was mysterious. There seems to be some hint there – both Again and Chofetz CHaim attempted to go to Israel
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