Anyone ever hear of a Simchat Bat?

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  • #600995

    kfb
    Participant

    I know someone who had a baby girl and a couple of weeks later they had a simchat bat for her. They had a big party, recited tehilim, said mi shebeirach and the mother even said a bracha on the girl. The parents are talmidim of Rabbi Weiss, maybe that explains it. But I never hear of such a thing…

    #834577

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    They had a big party, recited tehilim, said mi shebeirach and the mother even said a bracha on the girl.

    Sounds like a good idea, but would be Talui in the Machlokes between R’ Meir & R’ Yehuda whether it is a bracha to have a girl or not.

    #834578

    Jothar
    Member

    sephardim do this. Ashkenazim make a kiddush.

    #834579

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Pathetic.

    Sounds to me like the parents feel as if traditional Judaism doesn’t value women enough. How very sad that they think that way. Maybe if they had gotten a better Jewish education, they would understand.

    #834580

    Holy Shalom Zachor, Batman!

    #834581

    kfb
    Participant

    They’re both big followers of Rabbi Weiss, so I assume those people do that sort of thing.

    #834582

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    The reform and constructionists do this!! It is entirely inappropriate and I would question the frumkeit of someone who makes such a party. A kiddush is all that is approproiate to celebrate the birth of a daughter. This is a feminist attempt at replicating the broo-ha-ha of a Sholom Zochor and Bris. I am not sure that it is against strict halacha, so I wouldn’t call it apikorsis, but it is definitely “amaratzus” at the very least.

    #834583

    Sam2
    Participant

    I don’t understand. Doesn’t the Shulchan Aruch say that you make a Shehechiyanu when you have a baby girl? Doesn’t that mean that it’s a happy time worthy of celebration? It might not have been done in the past, but there shouldn’t be anything wrong with happy parents being happy, should there?

    #834584

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    Nothing at all wrong with celebrating and being happy. Being feminist is chukas hagoyim, and THAT is flat out wrong. The proscribed method of celebrating the birth of a girl is by making a kiddush. Not a female sholom zochor / bris combo.

    #834585

    old man
    Participant

    A simchat bat is a nice idea and can come in various forms. It can be a kiddush. It can be an oneg shabbos, it can be a seudah shlishis, or just cake and cookies on a shabbos afternoon in the summer. All of these are acceptable, and everyone can do what they feel like in this regard. It doesn’t even have to be on a shabbos, it can be any day of the week. It’s a positive thing to acknowledge HKBH when a baby girl is born, and there are no halachos that dictate how it should be celebrated.

    #834586

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t understand. Doesn’t the Shulchan Aruch say that you make a Shehechiyanu when you have a baby girl? Doesn’t that mean that it’s a happy time worthy of celebration? It might not have been done in the past, but there shouldn’t be anything wrong with happy parents being happy, should there?

    Correct. And they should feel happy. And they might even wish to throw a grand royal banquet.

    They have done differently though. They have made it into a religious ritual. Or, you might say, an ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????. They probably won’t be smitten by a fire from the Heavens. We are not really worthy of that today.

    #834587

    RSRH
    Member

    Oh Sam2, you just don’t get it. There is a mesorah on how parents can and cannot be happy upon the birth of a daughter. Clearly this is a break with the mesorah; it has no sanction from the gedolim; it is just a radical – practically conservative – innovation driven by radical feminist agendas. The mesorah dictates that good frumma yidden make a kiddush to celebrate the birht of a daughter. They don’t make a party – just a kiddush – they don’t say tehillim or other teffilos to express their gratitude to God, and they most certainly do not make a bracha to mentally dedicate themselves to the important task of raising their new child in the proper derech.

    For Shame!

    (sorry, couldn’t resist).

    #834588

    BrainwasheD
    Participant

    The concept of a shalom zachor is, according to the Taz, a form of seudas nechama for losing the Torah he learned in the womb. It does not apply to a woman.

    A simchat bat done by those who don’t have the minhag is just another form of feminist revisionism, like women dancing on Simchas Torah.

    #834589

    yichusdik
    Participant

    At first I thought I could scarcely believe what I was reading. But then I realized – this is exactly what I should expect.

    Heimishe Mom, really? Sfardim have been doing it forever, but for you its amaratzus? I submit that amaratzus is ignorance, and you are displaying ignorance of the traditions of half of the world’s Jews. And that is what it is, precisely – a matter of minhag, or tradition, or lack thereof. It isn’t a violation of Halocho to say tehilim, or have a seuda, or to make a brocho or a mi shebeirach. On the contrary, it is a hiddur of the mitzva of bringing more Jews – Male and Female – into the world. You don’t want to do it, rather make a kiddush? Fine. No one is forcing you to do it. No one is passing judgment on your choice within halocho. Why on earth do you think you have the right or responsibility to pass judgment on someone else’s choice within halocho? Reform and reconstructionists participating in positive Jewish experiences IF they aren’t a violation of halocho bother you? Fine. I guess you’ll stop giving tzedoko, because they do. Lots, and often to frum and heimishe institutions. Or stop using Jewish medical referral networks like ECHO, which save heimishe lives every day, because they do, or they are among many of the doctors who are prepared to go to the ends of the earth for other Jews.

    You would question the frumkeit, you say? Of course you would. Every word of your response to this issue screams that your identity as a Jew is completely wrapped up in separating yourself from di andere, no matter if they are reform, reconstructionist, or simply have different minhagim than you. Someone ought to let you know that that is not what yiddishkeit is about.

    And before you ask, I have two wonderful daughters, (ba’h) and when they were born I named them with an aliya and gave a kiddush in shul. That’s my minhag. But I don’t consider those who follow other minhagim within halocho apikorsim, amaratzim, or feminists. I call them brothers and sisters. You ought to give it a try.

    #834590

    Sam2
    Participant

    BrainwasheD: Why not? Show me where it says that a girl doesn’t learn in the womb.

    #834591

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    This is done in many mainstream Modern Orthodox communities.

    #834592

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    There is a mesorah on how parents can and cannot be happy upon the birth of a daughter. Clearly this is a break with the mesorah; it has no sanction from the gedolim; it is just a radical – practically conservative – innovation driven by radical feminist agendas.

    ???? ????? ??????? = not having a Shalom Bat!

    Anyone who disagrees with me is a Kofer! You have no right to even begin to think that I could possibly be wrong!

    #834593

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    yichusdik, I hate to break it to you; though I can take criticism where it is due, I stand on my original post. You are wrong. A kiddush is a kiddush by any name. An affair as kfb described where

    “the mother even said a bracha on the girl”

    is definitely NOT within the parameters of halacha regardless of your heritage.

    #834594

    gefen
    Participant

    Gavra: “Sounds like a good idea, but would be Talui in the Machlokes between R’ Meir & R’ Yehuda whether it is a bracha to have a girl or not.”

    Wait a minute – there’s actually a machlokes on whether it’s a bracha to have a girl??? All of my children are a big bracha to us!!! girl or boy – we are so thankful for them, as i’m sure most parents are.

    #834595

    oomis
    Participant

    Heimish Mom, your remarks, though well-intentioned I am sure, sound a little petty. What do YOU care if someone wants to mark the simcha of having a female child (and it is a PHENOMENAL simcha), by making a Friday night get-together? There is no halacha against this, because it was never an inyan of halacha. It is no more assur or “am haaratzus” than is making a birthday party for a 12 year old girl and calling it her Bas-Mitzvah celebration, though I am sure you have something to say on THAT subject, as well.

    IF something assur is being done at this party, then it is a whole different ballgame. Assur is assur. But please allow those parents who may possibly never have a male child (or even if they do, they are overjoyed to have a healthy female child), the same simple joy of inviting people to their home to sit down, eat nosh, wish them mazel tov, etc. that the ones making a Sholom Zochor do.

    So what if they will make a kiddush? It probably will not take place for a while, unlike the Sholom Zochor which is within a few days. And though they will eventually make a kiddush, the boy gets a S”Z AND a bris seudah. Let them enjoy their little baby girl however they want. It really doesn’t hurt you any. To call it something of the Reconstructionists and Reform, sounds not only judgmental but shows a lack of empathy for another person’s expression of simcha. I know plenty of very frum people who have made and attended these types of celebrations. If you do not want to do it or go to it, then by all means don’t. But please do not disparage people who do. They are doing absolutely nothing halachically, ethically, morally, socially or legally wrong. The worst thing I can say about it is it’s fattening. (And I take that under advisement ’cause I don’t believe you gain weight when you eat on Shabbos).

    #834596

    Sam2
    Participant

    A Heimishe Mom: The Shulchan Aruch says you make a Shehechianu when you have a girl. Assuming that is the Bracha she made, what is the problem exactly?

    #834597

    oomis
    Participant

    “the mother even said a bracha on the girl”

    Maybe it was Baruch… Hatov v’HaMeitiv…

    #834598

    ravshalom
    Participant

    I have seen advertisements for caterers who list “Brita” (read Bris + feminine suffix) as one of the “simchos” they can provide. Pathetic. (not to mention the obvious physiological and grammatical absurdity – Bris is already a feminine noun)

    #834599

    Luke
    Member

    All of my children are a big bracha to us!!!

    How do you have the audacity to involve yourself in a Machlokes between R’ Meir & R’ Yehuda.

    #834601

    Heimish Mom…please tells us how you really feel….I’m not really sure if you are against it 🙂

    #834602

    yichusdik
    Participant

    H mom,

    Frum Mothers give brachos to their kids every Friday night – Yesimcho… Doing so in this environment you describe as outside of the parameters of Halocho…how, exactly?

    #834603

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    gefen:

    ????? (?????? ??) ??’ ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???

    Offen a Gemorah.

    #834604

    lolkatz
    Member

    Wow. Many of the same sn’s who deride the Bal tosif of the simchat bat here have no preoblem with the bal tosif of “penguinism” in the individualism and colored shirt threads.

    #834605

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I never knew members of the reformed movement recited tehilim, ever made a mi shebeirach or said brachos, for any occassion. Live and learn.

    #834606

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    The FATHER makes the brocho!! (I thought it was hatov vehameitiv?)

    Come on people! I obviously don’t care what kind of party you make for whom, when, or what you do. But the concept of Shalom Bat is from the Reform feminists. Davening, making a mishebairach, and making brochos are NOT appropriate. And yes, I made a birthday party for my daughter when she turned 12. It was a BIRTHDAY party done under socail pressure (I do disagree with the party concept in general and don’t succumb to pressures generally, though a seudas mitzvah for the immediate family is deemed appropriate by poskim). I did not make brochos are say special tefilos or pretend it was something which it was not.

    #834607

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    yichusdik: You are DA MAN!

    #834608

    BrainwasheD
    Participant

    Sam2, why would a malach want to teach an innocent bas yisroel Tiflus in the womb?

    To save time and prevent umbrage, I am fully aware of the heteirim to teach women Torah today. However they are heteirim based on an un-ideal condition. In an ideal condition, it’s anashim lilmod, venashim leshmoa. The Taz is lechora being consistent with his views in YD 246 on this.

    Maybe they learn Torah for the first 40 days until the gender is determined.

    #834609

    apushatayid
    Participant

    My sefardi friends make what I think is called a “zeved habat”, (someone help me here with the pronunciation). The last one I attended the grandfather of the baby girl said what I believe were several pizmonim, tefilos and made a bracha. I dont own an “Edut Hamizrach” siddur, but I was told the nusach of this ceremony is in the siddur. Sounds very much like the simchat bat described by the OP with the exception that at the one I attended the grandfather made a (the?) bracha, not the mother of the baby.

    #834610

    RSRH
    Member

    “I did not make brochos are say special tefilos or pretend it was something which it was not.”

    Well done! You really are A Heimishe Mom. Nothing like taking a birthday party in honor of your daughter’s becoming personally obligated to follow halacha and purposely removing every recognition of that fact and instead turning into a meaningless secular party for a secular purpose. You took an opportunity to make Torah real by bringing into EVERY aspect of life – not just beis yaakov, shul, and chessed projects, but something as mundane as a birthday party – and instead pushed the Torah away to the corner of the room as if to say, God has no relevance here.

    But I guess if doing all that is part of the mesorah . . . .

    But go ahead. Continue faulting people for making a definitive recognition of the religious significance of the birth of their daughter. Denigrate them for acknowledging God’s role in their lives and the future life of their daughter, not just in vague thought, but in definite speech and action.

    #834611

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I recently made a BAT MITZVAH and my daughters school has rules about these kinds of parties(She goes to a fairly hemish school) (They allow them, but want them limited) I did not like these rules and made my own party as I saw fit.

    I wanted a special party so my daughter would remember it, but nobody else would

    HEMISH relatives who dont normally go to these parties and if they go, stay for the absolute minimum complimented me on what a hemish party it was, they stayed the whole party ate, gave dvar torahs and had a good time,

    #834612

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    RSRH:

    You are making good cynical comments, but you simply are not correct.

    The argument made by liberal Judaism is that since girls are in every respect as valuable as boys, it does not make sense to have more significant rituals at the birth of a boy than a girl. The fact that chazal did not institute any such rituals merely proves to them that chazal were also prejudiced against women.

    It is this argument which is driving Weiss and his followers to institute parallel rituals.

    And I can tell you that Rav Hirsch, whom you pretend to follow, did not agree with them. They (and apparently you) think that Rav Hirsch was also one of those backward rabbis who didn’t respect women. This is necessarily the case, since Rav Hirsch did not institute this ritual which they create.

    But go ahead. Continue faulting people for making a definitive recognition of the religious significance of the birth of their daughter. Denigrate them for acknowledging God’s role in their lives and the future life of their daughter, not just in vague thought, but in definite speech and action.

    I denigrate them for creating ritual where chazal did not. I denigrate them for their accusations that chazal were backwards chauvinists.

    I denigrate them for not following today’s gedolim also. And with the full knowledge that there is no sanhedrin, that merely means that their status is “idiot” instead of “heretic.” Well, idiot is not really much better than heretic.

    #834613

    mamashtakah
    Member

    I’ve been to a few simchat bat celebrations on our yishuv. The parents weren’t talmidim of Rabbi Weiss; I guess they just felt like having one. It wasn’t like the OP described, it was more of an oneg Shabbat. The only brachot made were over the food; there was no mi shabayrach and no Tehillim. Really just a get-together with some l’chaims over the simcha of a Jewish birth.

    #834614

    bp27
    Participant

    Contrary to what many commentators have said, no where in Shulchan Aruch does it say that you make a Shehechayanu when you have a baby girl. The Mishna Berura says his own chiddush that you do make a Shehechayanu when you see the girl the first time, as it is no different than not seeing a friend for 30 days. However, most poskim disagree and advise not to make a bracha.

    Upon the birth of a son, the bracha is HaTov VeHameitiv, which is said upon hearing about the birth, not seeing the baby.

    #834616

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I think a BAR MITZVAH as practiced today is also a Post WW II American institution .

    An older gentlemen told me in his day. Bar Mitzvah was he got an Aliyah on a Monday or Thursday (Not even Shabbos) and was allowed a shot of Schnapps after davening and that was it (Along with the Bracha by his father)

    #834617

    lammed hey
    Member

    When I had my daughter, I made a siyum on Masechta Kiddushin, as Segulah for my daughter finding a shidduch (at the right time, of course).

    And yes, I did invite others, and said Kaddesh (not Kiddush).

    #834618

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I think a BAR MITZVAH as practiced today is also a Post WW II American institution.

    Highly likely. And in more yeshivish circles, you will find that it is much more played down.

    The main point to be made about that, is that people who make fancy bar mitzvas are not doing it as a statement against chazal.

    #834619

    apushatayid
    Participant

    If a woman wanted to bring a korban toda upon the birth of a child was she allowed to do so? Was a woman allowed to bring a todah as a way of expressing thanks that she survived a dangerous situation (childirth)? Was a husband allowed to bring a korban toda upon the birth of a daughter? I dont know what it is supposed to prove if the answer is yes or no, the questions just popped into my head.

    #834620

    asher1
    Participant

    the bracha is said immediately after she washes her hands and is able to say it. it cannot be said a few weeks later. Perhaps it was birchas hagomel, which some in EY have a minhag to bench? Perhaps it was the newly minted bracha of the aforementioned rabbi’s cohort’s “shelo asani eesh” and the mother doesn’t say it that morning so she can patur her new daughter. Its very touching.

    #834621

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Heimish mom: Even though several people have mentioned this, I wil repeat. This is an old minhag. I own several siddurim from different traditions that have the ceremony in it.

    #834622

    vayeitzei
    Member

    Which siddur, if any, has the mother make a public bracha?

    #834623

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    This mesora is directly from my cleaning woman, so argue that!

    #834624

    mewho
    Participant

    no need to bicker. it’s all for good stuff! B”H

    may we all make many simchas for all good things and keep celebrating.

    #834625

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Itche:

    I don’t know what this practice entails, and I don’t own several old siddurim.

    I only know that Weiss and his kookoos are not motivated by a desire to reinstate old minhagim, but by a desire to make Judaism fit into their notions of morality and values. And that is treifer than chazir. (Because it doesn’t even have split hooves.*)

    *Actually, chazir is more treif than other meat, specifically because it has split hooves. I forgot where I saw this (I think a rishon on the page), that being closer to tahor actually makes it more tamei.

    Perhaps we can say they are exactly like chazir, since they hold up their “split hooves” in the form of old siddurim or the Rambam or other sources, and try to pretend that they are motivated by proper hashkafa.

    #834626

    Or stop using Jewish medical referral networks like ECHO, which save heimishe lives every day, because they do

    not sure how ECHO made it in there, ECHO is definitely not a reform or reconstructionist organization. It was founded and is run by very chashuver frum people.

    #834627

    Sister Bear
    Member

    Ha, my distant cousins had one for their daughter. They’re Conservatives and major feminists (or at least she is..) thank goodness we got there after the ceremony but we found little booklet things that were what they would say by a pidyon haben just feminized, with the whole pillow….

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