Appropriate Workplaces For Women

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  • This topic has 51 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 12 years ago by mw13.
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  • #593305
    candy613
    Member

    I was wonderin what people thought about different workplaces for women obvously a woman might have to work to support her husband if he’s learning or there might be other reasons but thr is disscussion about what type of places are ok and what are not ok… ex: a hospital, being a lawyer, dr

    Are these positions really not ok for a woman?

    #715225
    charliehall
    Participant

    My wife is a doctor and loves it. There are few professions where you have the potential to perform the mizvah of saving lives every day. It isn’t for the squeamish thought, or those who don’t realize that pikuach nefesh absolutely trumps tzniut. And it is definitely NOT for those who see it as a lucrative profession.

    #715226
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    You are correct but to be nit-picky and precise, there is not usually any problem of tznius in a doctor- patient relationship.

    In the context of a real tznius breach, tznius is yehareg v’al yaavor. As the gemara says, yamus v’al taamod l’fanav aruma.

    #715227
    so right
    Member

    A non-Jewish workplace is highly inappropriate for a Jewish woman.

    #715228
    eclipse
    Member

    My h.learned for many years,I taught part-time in frum schools and frum offices in the summer.But if any office situation even began to infringe on proper tznius behavior,I politely quit.

    #715229
    Helpful
    Member

    In addition to the post by so right, even many “Jewish” workplaces are highly inappropriate for a woman.

    #715230
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    IME, the utility industry is a great place for a woman.

    So right, how do you suggest frum families pay tuition for their kids if the wife is only allowed to work in Jewish institutions? There are not enough positions available for all frum women.

    #715231
    ZachKessin
    Member

    My wife just started a job doing court transcription. She really likes it. She works from home and it seems like she will be making decent money. It should really help our family budget!

    #715232
    myfriend
    Member

    A person should not work in a place where yichud issues arise.

    #715233
    charliehall
    Participant

    The burden is on the machmirim here to come up with an economic model that works.

    #715234
    real-brisker
    Member

    One can work where ever they want as long as no Halachos are being compromised on.

    #715235
    kapusta
    Participant

    Just because an office is run by what seems to be super frum, or is in a school with a very frum student body doesn’t make it ok. On the other side, just because a workplace is non-Jewish doesn’t make it automatically bad, (depending on the sort of workplace, how many other frum people work there, her position etc). Basically, don’t assume anything, do your homework.

    *kapusta*

    #715236
    bpt
    Participant

    Anywhere a frum male can work, a frum female can work… as long as they follow the halacha (diff things might apply to each, but rules keep you in the clear).

    EDITED

    #715237
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, let’s discuss places where it is ok for a frum man to work.

    What is going on in the office? Is it ok for a 45 year old frum man to have 20 year old secretaries?

    #715238
    squeak
    Participant

    Popa, what are you saying? If frum men are not allowed to work in yeshivos ktana then where are they allowed to work?

    #715239
    so right
    Member

    popa – why should age even be a question (once we are talking about a halachic adult)? I don’t see any difference in cross gender issue whether they are 45/20, 45/42, 75/18, 58/21, or 92/28.

    #715240

    popa clearly was not making a Halachic distinction, but just painting a paradigmal example

    #715241
    arc
    Participant

    …the kitchen or a classroom (toungue in cheek)

    #715242
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    so right:

    You are correct. Is it ok for a frum man who has a 1 cow wife to have an 8 cow secretary?

    #715243
    LAer
    Member

    ZachKessin, how did your wife get into that? Do you need any training or specific skills? Can you make your own hours? I’d love to do something like that, especially if it pays well, but I can’t put in a full day. I have very good typing and spelling skills, and I think that court transcription would be something I’d enjoy – I didn’t know that it could be done from home!

    #715245
    seeallsides
    Participant

    Our world today is inappropriate for women AND FOR MEN. There are terrible things going on with men in the workplace, it is just that there is no apparent solution since you gotta make a living. Since women in the workplace is a relatively newer phenomenon in our circles, it is still an ‘option’. But with the kollel lifestyle where women have to work, you have to go back to being very strong – if you are going to work in the workplace, you better learn halacha constantly, go to shiurim, reinforce your hashkafos, because whether you are a man or a woman, today’s workplace is INAPPROPRIATE. There have been scandals in bais yaakov offices and of course many many more nisyonos in the standard workplace , ain apotropos l’arayaos – I remember R’Avigdor Miller a”h said that if your husband has a secretary make sure she is very old and looks like a monkey. May we merit Mashiach b’karov and not have these terrible nisyonos.

    #715249
    ZachKessin
    Member

    I forgot how she heard about the job. It might have been on a mailing list. But I think you need to be a US citizen living in Israel to work at this particular place.

    #715253
    yswo
    Member

    I do not see the diff between men and women in this regard. Why is this question specifically geared towards women? Both men and women should try to work in a place where their ruchniyus is perserved, of course nowadays this is usually not too easy.

    #715254
    Josh31
    Participant

    “1 cow wife to have an 8 cow secretary”

    Comparing women is cows is degrading to all women.

    #715255
    so right
    Member

    Truth be told, there are no appropriate workplaces for women.

    #715256
    Helpful
    Member

    A woman’s place is in the home.

    #715258
    TheChevra
    Member

    Josh31, I don’t think popa is comparing women to cow’s. He is talking about how much (in terms of cows) it cost to buy a wife.

    #715259
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Josh, I think you’re misunderstanding me.

    See also: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/johhny-lingos-8-cow-wife

    #715260
    aries2756
    Participant

    That is another thing that Roshei Yeshivas did not consider when they sent our Bnos Yisroel out into the REAL world to make parnasha for their kolel yungerman! Seriously, maybe women who choose to go out to work because they want a career are also a little more savvy about what to expect in the real world and how to handle themselves. They are also aware of Equal Opportunity laws, and laws pertaining to sexual harrassment on the job. But are Kolel wives as informed? Are they trained in these issues? Do they know how to protect themselves and what to do even if they work in a frum environment and are challenged by these issues? YES these things do happen in frum environments and frum men do have problems with “loose hands” so to speak, and loose tongues as well.

    Women who are not prepared to “fend” for themselves are ashamed to come home and tell their husbands because they are afraid of losing the parnasa their husbands are counting on, so they feel they are stuck between a rock and a hard place and don’t know where to turn. They don’t want to “masser” on their employer and they don’t want to dissappoint their husbands.

    #715261
    Yatzmich
    Member

    Many of the problems start in offices where the men & women call each other by their first names. Calling each other Mr. or Mrs. or Miss so & so, keeps that bit of space between the genders.

    #715262
    ronrsr
    Member

    Dear Yatzmich, your suggestion made me think of the late slain civil rights activist Medgar Evers. He and his wife worked in the same office, and during office house it was always, “Mr. Evers” and “Mrs. Evers,” to make sure that the right attitude was maintained at work.

    #715263
    fghij
    Participant

    ZachKessin, Do you have the phone number of whom to contact for this job? I live in Israel, and am a US citizen looking for a job!

    #715264
    mw13
    Participant

    I don’t see why working in general should be any more problematic for women than it is for men. Both genders can be influenced by a inappropriate environment, and both genders must adhere to hilchos negiah, yichud, etc.

    Don’t get me wrong – I do believe that in an ideal world, women should be devoting themselves to running their homes, while their husbands support them. But life is not always so ideal.

    #715265
    Helpful
    Member

    mw13, there is also a tremendous problem with a mixed gender office.

    #715266

    I work for an all female accounting firm, I find that its individual clients who are inappropriate, and in the beginning I would allow it because I didnt know how to react but now I would never let anyone act inappropriately or touch me without my consent.

    #715267
    eclipse
    Member

    Each person must truly know themselves…My friend is a secretary in a boys school– but if anyone gets too friendly with her, the mere look on her face scares the living daylights out of them.

    I, on the other hand,wouldn’t take such a job because I know I will end up being a magnet for the downtrodden who mistake a courteous smile for an invitation to get married.You gotta know your personality and put up gedarim GALORE.You will NEVER BLUNDER WITH GEDARIM…AND DON’T LET ANYONE TALK YOU OUT OF sticking to WHATEVER FENCES YOU SET UP.

    #715268
    aries2756
    Participant

    mw13, it is also more common for men, yes even frum men, to make advances on women than the opposite, not that the opposite doesn’t happen, but it is more common for men.

    #715269
    mdd
    Member

    It would be much better, if women were machmir to cover their hair with something other than a shaitel. Contemporary shaitels are of high quality, and make a woman look 2-3 times better than otherwise she would. It could make an average-looking woman look like a model. And it causes yetser horah!!

    #715270
    eclipse
    Member

    Personally the only time I feel really put-together is with my sheitel on.It is definitely a madreigah to wear the less-glamorous head coverings,and I’m not being sarcastic,but a person needs to feel good about her appearance(esp.when the metabolism goes on strike!).

    #715271

    I am deeply offended by the way this post is going. Instead of talking about certain jobs that are friendly to a working mother, we are talking about gedarim that women need to set up. Why not talk about men who need SELF CONTROL? Maybe those women who are working are smarter, both intellectually and how to handle themselves. Women are allowed to work outside the home- who else will bring in dinner if the husband is learning? Oh, and there are not enough teaching/secretary/special ed jobs out there. Or Speech Therapy jobs- so many people are going into these fields that it is impossible to find a job!

    What about jobs where you can pick your clients? Where you work in an open office-setting without closed rooms (so no yichud issues)- like OT or PT? Most of the time they work in larger rooms that can be curtained off. What about psychology- the psychologist picks their own clients (they can specifically work with children, schools, couples ect) and can refer elsewhere if not comfortable.

    Maybe we should switch the theme of this post to a more friendly atmosphere, where women are not hammered to feel like they must lock themselves in a closet. If men would act appropriate, all frum environments would be safer. Men should watch their eyes and not make women cover themselves up with gedarim beyond gedarim. Maybe men should watch their speech and actions as well!

    mdd- why should women wear something that is beyond halacha- just to solve your problems? see a psychologist if a married woman’s sheitel is causing you trouble.

    #715272
    mw13
    Participant

    Helpful: I’m not sure if you’re agreeing with me or arguing with me.

    aries2756: True, men tend to make the first move (although one could argue that the women often entice them into making the move).

    mdd: Very true. I believe that not too long ago, Rav Eliashav called today’s sheitels “erva” because they are so life-like.

    #715273
    so right
    Member

    hss, Gedarim are appropriate and required. Our Chachomim didn’t institute gedarim, especially in this area of arayos, without very very good reasons.

    #715274

    so right- I am not saying gedarim are not appropriate. I am saying that men should practice “shmiras anayim” as well. Why is it always “women need to do….” instead of how “men should not look, should control their thoughts/eyes/urges”? yes, calling people “mr and ms” is appropriate and should be done- but making the women lock themselves in closets, wear a bag over their head, or dress in potato sacks should not have to be done. If the women are covered (elbows, knees, hair if married ect) and dressed according to halacha then the woman’s job is complete

    Men should not be enticed by little things. Its the man’s problem and he should fix it. teaching tzniyus is important- but the men should protect themselves too.

    #715275
    mdd
    Member

    Of course, men have their obligations. But you can’t totaly avoid seeng women. And it is not good when the women in your office look like a collection of models. If they looked more toned down, it would be much better.

    BTW, if a man is unaffected by the model-looking women, he needs to see a doctor.

    #715276
    eclipse
    Member

    I think I know what the ads “seeking mature(non-nisayon) woman” mean.

    And I think I can finally apply for those!

    #715277
    mw13
    Participant

    havesomeseichel:

    I must admit I’m not sure exactly what you’re so “deeply offended” at. Did somebody suggest men do not need to have self-control? I must have missed it. Actually, the post right before the one you seem to have an issue with seems to put the blame more on men than women (and I can’t help but point out that you’ll notice no men were “deeply offended” at that).

    “If men would act appropriate, all frum environments would be safer.”

    Why are you only mentioning men? If all the women would act appropriately, all frum environments would also be spiritually safer! I’m deeply offended. Why not talk about women who need SELF CONTROL?

    In case it isn’t obvious enough, those last two sentences are meant to be read with a healthy dose of sarcasm. The point I’m trying to get across here is that everybody agrees both men and women must behave themselves – we just happen to be focusing on the opposite sides of the same coin.

    “mdd- why should women wear something that is beyond halacha- just to solve your problems? see a psychologist if a married woman’s sheitel is causing you trouble.”

    Whoa. All mdd said was that it would be nice if “women were machmir to cover their hair with something other than a shaitel.” As in, its a nice thing to do. Not quite the fighting words you’re making them out to be.

    That said, as I mentioned before R’ Elyashiv holds that today’s human-hair sheitels are “erva” and assur… so this is hot necessarily “beyond halacha”.

    “Why is it always “women need to do….” instead of how “men should not look, should control their thoughts/eyes/urges”?”

    OK… men should not look, should control their thoughts/eyes/urges. Period.

    “making the women lock themselves in closets, wear a bag over their head, or dress in potato sacks should not have to be done.”

    I fully agree with you. All the many CR members demanding that woman lock themselves in closets, wear a bag over their head, and/or dress in potato sacks are dead wrong.

    “Men should not be enticed by little things.”

    And it shouldn’t get so cold in the winter. But the reality is what the reality is, whether we like it or not.

    “the men should protect themselves too”

    Of course. Where do you see anybody arguing?

    #715278

    Ok- I understand your point. some of my sarcasm was misunderstood.. haven’t figured out how to italics….

    My main point was I was tired of the blame being put on women. There are numerous shiurim being given on women’s requirements. I have not seen any signs for, nor heard from family members, about rabbonim being so adamant about men and shmiras anayim.

    About sheitels- that debate can go round and round. I do not want to get into that whole question- many sefardim hold that even if not wearing a newer sheitel that they must wear a hat on top of it. Chasidim hold you must wear “double deckers” as I have heard them referred to.

    But I have heard rabbonim in effect say that women should wear bags as clothing to make sure that it isn’t too tight. I am sorry- I have a right for people to see I am not a size 63 when I am a size… (not getting into THAT). Men should not be turned on by the fact that i show about what size I am. I am not saying skin tight clothing. In the same note, I have heard rabbonim say women don’t belong out of the house.period. so how are we to support our husbands?>!?!?

    Bottom line- too much pressure put on women and not enough put on men.

    By the way- I edited this because I accidently clicked submit.

    #715279
    myfriend
    Member

    hss: Both Shulchan Aruch and Rambam say women shouldn’t be out of the house too much. Is Shulchan Aruch too radical, like those other “rabbonim” you are complaining of?

    #715280
    mdd
    Member

    Havesomeseichel, who told you that Rabbonim are not adamant about the shemiras eynaim for the men? And there is not much what to give shiurim about here — they know their obligations. Plus, if someone, chas ve’sholom, does something wrong, it is hard to detect for other people.

    For women ,there are more details to know. Plus, when someone starts steping out of line, everybody can tell right away. Hence, the shiurim.

    And, yes, derech klal, for a married woman: the less attractive she looks in public, the better it is. We can not obligate every woman to uglyfy herself in public, but it is a middas hasidus for her to do so. And trust me, sh’miras eynaim and machshovos is a lot of pressure for the men ( considering the way Goyos are undressed and Bnos Yisroel are pitsed up).

    #715281
    ZachKessin
    Member

    My wife says right now they are not hiring, but try google, there are other firms that might be. Also it should be said, I would not want to try to support a family off of her income doing transcriptions. For us we have my salary which is quite good. The extra money from my wife’s job is going to allow us to cash-flow a wedding. My Step Daughter is getting married next summer so we want to be able to do it without any debt.(we don’t borrow money)

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