- This topic has 194 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
This is the fault of the kiruv movement, something I have been talking about for years. After individuals have been mekareved it is out duty to welcome them. The problem starts with the mistaken misconception that it is our duty to be mekarev people who claimno be Jewish. That is a fallacy. The baal teshuva movement is a relatively new phenomenon, Rabbonim in previous generations never made a mass movement of trying to get people who were non-practing Jews to return. Certainly they didn’t try to get the children and grandchildren and great grandchildren of non-practicing Jews to return to the fold. It is naive to think that from all the tens, and maybe even hundreds, of people that become baal teshuvas every year there won’t be missionaries or non-Jews, who assume that they are Jews, among them.
“when are we going to wake up and realize that we need to be more cautious who we let into our communities.”
Hopefully not.
The story doesn’t pass the smell test. Served as a mohel? He wrote A Sefer Torah cmon That is not an easy task. And to what end ? So he can slip in talk about Yoshka int ocausal conversation, and the listeneer would say “Hey this guy is a mohel and sofer if he believes in Yoshko I guess I should”
A commenter there wrote: “As a resident of Phoenix for almost 10 years, I can confirm this story to be a bunch of hype and lies !!
This guy had no connection to the frum community in Phoenix. He lived in a far out corner of the city where no frum families reside.
The “rabbi” that gave him semicha is a man that is a Notorious scamster in the community. Everyone knows to stay far away. He has 4 followers in his garage on a good week.
As usual, don’t believe everything you read. No frum people where impacted by these idiots!”Obviously I don’t know if the commenter is telling the truth but it is far more likely than the reported story .
Philosopher
You realize you are arguing on gedolim like R’ Freifeld, right?Philosopher, we don’t have much precedent to determine that, because up until the 1920s the majority of klal yisroel were frum.
It’s probably due to a lack of resources that in the early days of American jewry, there wasn’t a massive kiruv movement. The chazon ish encouraged kiruv in eretz yisroel, and even instructed yungerleit who were fit for the job to remove their yarmulkahs in kibutzim, knowing that people would listen to them more if they didn’t look too frum.
To think that we should abandon the millions of secular jews to be lost forever is not something I’ve seen advocated by anyone
Avira, we had haskalah and Reform a little earlier than 1920. Maybe this is when they arrived to Brisk and even that is not so. There were probably always people not interested in observance, but they often did not have any good options, so they stayed quiet, and maybe their children or grand-children straighten out .. In cases when they could – Greeks, Spain, Germany, they left.
And I don’t think majority of “klal” has a lot of urgency about the issue. How many BTs are in regular shuls? how many ever meet or talk to secular reform Jews, Israelis or Russians? How often do Rabbis talk about outside other than about the danger? In most places, not often.
The issue of non-Jews (who may consider themselves to be “Jewish”) being mekareved and becoming “frum” is a real phenomenon.
Avirah, actually it is in the toichacha that a large number of Jews will fall away.
I’m not saying to do away the kiruv movement in Israel where the majority of people who say that they are Jewish are truly Jewish (at this time) . I am talking specifically of kiruv in the US.
It is absolutely not the duty of frum Jews to place their own and their family’s ruchnius and children’s education at second place to make find people who SAY that their grandmother was Jewish and even spoke a word or two of Yiddish. That is no guarantee that they are Jewish.
Kiruv has been a concept since the days of Avraham Avinu, and Hashem even had Noach build the teva for 130 years in order to give people the time to do teshuvah. Noach, despite being a tzadik in his days, did not go out and actively encourage them to do teshuvah. He should have.
It is wrong to put blame on people who are m’karev other Yidden. They are doing what we all should be doing on some level. To blame those in kiruv is to blame the Skulener Rebbe zt”l, Rav Meir Shushter zt”l, the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt”l, etc. One who is not on the level of a gadol should never open their mouth against one is.
I, for one, know that I would have benefitted tremendously from those who put themselves out there for others. Where would I be without them? My Torah, is their Torah. My family, is their zechus. I became frum because of those wonderful souls who shared their love of that which is Pure and Perfect.
The real answer to why there are missionaries sneaking into the frum community is that we are very clearly in the Messianic era, and the Sitra Achra is upping its battle, trying to prevent Yidden from cleaving to Hakadosh Barush Hu.
Missionaries have been developing apologetics and tactics to worm their way in. You can blame Artscroll just as much as you can blame those putting tefillin on people; the doors to our Torah became open to them. Is Artscroll wrong for helping those who want to learn able to learn in the language they know best? Of course not.
The missionaries who go undercover are just following the teachings of their religion, which instruct them to present themselves as a Jew to the Jew, and a gentile to the gentile. It’s evil and corrupt, and sheker v’chazir. Like a pig, they stretch forth their feet — in this case, a tallis and peyos — and claim kosher. But inside they worship a man-made man-god.
Don’t blame the kosher for the unkosher who worm their way in.
“There were probably always people not interested in observance, but they often did not have any good options”
That was much better and the proper way. People should have no options to quit observance.
The Christians who become fake frum Jews is a completely separate issue (and a much much smaller problem quantity-wise) from the very real problem of halachic Goyim who think they’re Jews (descended from Conservative/Reform maternal “converts”, paternal descent, etc.) and then become Orthodox Jews even though they’re gentiles.
Novelty, Avraham Avinu did not do kiruv rechokim, there was no Judaism at the time. The converts he made were not Jewish converts, they were pagans who served idols and he taught them to serve Hashem. Noach also didn’t have to find specifically Jews and make them specifically Torah observant. That was completely different than bringing people who are supposed to be Jewish.
Now the Lubavitche Rebbe, the Skulene Rebbe and even Rav Meir Shutter made baal teshuvas in a different world. The world of today is another 2-4 generations removed from their Jewish observant ancestor. It is a world of trans and gays and we don’t want these people within our midst. To deny reality is be delibertely blind and chase a goal that will bring disaster in our midst.
If I may ask, did you become frum in the last decade or earlier? From how you write I am guessing that you are a long-time baal teshuva. This generation of secular Jews ( and yet again today it’s much harder to know if those who claim to be are Jews are truly Jews) are completely and totally different to ones decades ago when people still had moral values despite being secular.
Philosopher; as someone who has placee children in kiruv yeshivos, I can say that they are careful to only take verified Jewish children…to a fault. I say this because many parents who are proud of their jewish identity despise being interrogated and forced to provide evidence of their yahadus. They already think that the frum don’t consider them Jewish…lehavdil, imagine the umbrage we would have if someone wanted us to prove who we were… This insensitive attitude I’m sure has resulted in many lives lost. One may wonder; if one jewish child will be deprived of Torah, isn’t it worth the wasted resources on a few others who are not actually yidden?
This has been a gripe of mine for quite some time.
Like I said above, the chazon ish supported kiruv in eretz yisroel. Gedolei yisroel such as rav pam, the novominsker rebbe, rev yaakov, and many others, oversaw kiruv yeshivos in America – rav pam started shuvu in eretz yisroel. Kiruv is far from limited to Aish and “kiruv professionals”, it has the backing of the full gamut kf gedolei yisroel. The satmar rov famously held a shitah that is somewhat similar to philosopher; we need to be sure that our own are taken care of fully before branching out….he did however, say that in post war America, where people barely could keep shabbos and kashrus without great mesirus nefesh.
Would he say it in our time? That’s anyone’s guess…i personally think he wouldn’t.
I do agree however, that placing one’s family at risk – even a little – is outside the bounds of hishtadlus. Chayecha kodmin.
Kiruv kollelim usually operate in groups; they ensure that the yungerleit have accesa to charedishe mosdos, and proper standards of yiddishkeit for their families. Every local kiruv family that I know insulates their kids from exposure to the chevra they are mekarev. Campus kiruv is something i personally feel is mishandled. Mike moskowitz supposedly became pro LGBT because of his discussions with college kids who he was supposed to be being mekarev. The dangers of immersing one’s self in such an environment should be enough for us to take stock of how we do kiruv at colleges.
‘”One may wonder; if one jewish child will be deprived of Torah, isn’t it worth the wasted resources on a few others who are not actually yidden?”
If you bring non-Jews into Orthodox Judaism you run the real risk of inadvertent intermarriage, among many other serious problems. (Yayin nesech would be one of the “smaller” ones.)
AviraDeArah, many years ago, when I was still a teenager, so we are talking over twenty years ago, a girl worked in my family business. She was from Russia and supposedly a baalei teshuva. But we found out later that due to an error she was really non-Jewish. So when I asked someone who knew about the case why she still dressed and acted Jewish and stayed within the community they claimed that they invested too much money to just let her go…thinking about this I get mad! I have no clue what ended up with that girl. This was over twenty years ago!
There was a story in Hamodia about a Russian teenage boy whose mother, who was an alcoholic, claimed that she’s Jewish and therefore was allowed to attend avJewish camp. He wanted to travel to a yeshiva in England but for whatever reason that I can’t remember now his mother didn’t give permission for him to go. However they had a yeshiva ready for him and would he be able to travel to England he’d be accepted into Yeshiva simply because his alcoholic mother claimed that she was a Jew. The article clearly enunciated that point that they had no way of verifying his Jewishness so they checked with a Rav who ruled that they could believe his mother…
Recently there was a story of a baal teshuva who found out after already having einklach that he was a non-Jew! Since he’s a make his family didn’t have to undergo conversion but can you imagine a believing he’s Jewish, wife wife marrying him as a Jew, bringing up a Jewish family… I have no doubt, as generations have moved further from their Jewish ancestry, that many people assume they are Jewish, whether due to adoption, or their grandparents converting through the Reform movement, that such stories will be much more frequent if this “baal teshuva movement” does not stop.
Whom are we trying to bring into our communities? The secular world today is worlds away from the society it was 15+ years ago. This has to stop.
We have unfortunately lost millions of nefashos throughout the millenias, Jews taken into slavery, forced conversions, the Enlightenment, assimilation, etc. The Jewish nation has survived and will continue to survive because Hashem promised us we will stay a nation despite losing so many of our people. We daven that Hashem should send Moshiach and return all the lost people to our nation. From our part, is not right to mess with a situation that cannot be rectified at this time
Ujm, if they become frum they will at some point be checked out, certainly before they are married. If they don’t, then being in the yeshiva hasn’t helped or harmed them in terms of intermarriage, because while whoever they marry might think they’re Jewish, if they or their children ever marry into klal yisroel, there will be a bedikah, and it will not harm the klal.
I personally know a case where a boy thought he was jewish, but it turned out thar his maternal grandmother converted through reform/conservative. The kid was learning full time, he was 20ish, and underwent a giur immediately.
If you’re worried about yayin nesech, bishul akum, etc while they’re not observant, then the same halacha applies(mostly) to secular jews as well.
Philosopher; it’s like I said above – a jewish life is worth the wasted resources. It also happens that when such mistakes occur, anyone who became frum would want a giur, and should indeed get one if they are sincere.
As for the “worthiness” of kiruv targets, there need not be any. Morasha kehilas yaakov; their great grandparents cried biterer treren for them to come back, and many have b”h. I brisk I learned lf the background of many, many choshuve bochurim who grew up with nothing. Do most become frum? No. Do the ones who become frum always become bnei Torah? Again no. But are they ruining klal yisroel? Absolutely not! More harm is done by the likes of Avi Weiss who have a rabbinic position to exploit, or by the social media women who spread treif among bnos yisroel. More harm is done by the people in our own “unzerer” who facilitate and enable disgusting things, by the MO world which incubates apikorsus and znus, the list goes on…the dreadlock wearing hitchiker who enjoys a shabbos seudah and is inching towards observance isn’t hurting nearly as many, because he’s an “oisvarf”.
“What are we letting into our community” – being steeped in gen z garbage does not remove the yiddishe neshoma and our obligation to save them as much as possible. The ones who are not up to par anyways don’t want to assimilate into the charedi world, and the MO world is just as “veit” as they are
This thread is heartbreaking.
While I agree that one in kiruv has to be extremely careful about what his family is exposed to, that doesn’t mean one should avoid kiruv completely. Let’s get back to Skulen. I’m rather familiar with the family, and back in Romania, they adopted more than a 1,000 war orphans. Their doors were open to everyone, whether or not they were frum. Even now, Chesed L’Avraham takes in so many Jewish kids that even the secular authorities don’t want to deal with, raising them up into fine, erliche Yidden.
There’s a fine balance between protecting one’s family and ignoring the plight of tinokei shenishba. There’s a time and place — and a way — to do kiruv rechokim.
Back to Avraham Avinu and Noach:
Who cares if there were no “Jews” as that time? They still had the obligation to bring creations close to the Creator. Kal v’chomer, how much more do WE have to be mindful of those who ARE Jewish, helping them to return home?As for me, I’m not so old — only mid-30’s — though I’ve been fully frum since I was a teen.
So it has been a while since I’ve been out of the secular world, however, I don’t believe for a second that the because of the changes in the world there is no hope for Jewish souls.
To say so it to say that Hashem is not stronger than the forces of tumah, chas v’shalom.We already have a couple of firsthand stories, just by the less than tiny number of people in this very thread, of Goyim who become “Orthodox” and married real Jews.
How many more there are that others (not in this thread) are aware of. And how many untold thousands more there are that haven’t yet been discovered (and may never be discovered), that are halachic Goyim, many of them female, married to frum Jews and giving birth to more Goyim who will intermarry frum Yidden, and no one realizing.
Novelty, I am all for sending a message to society that there’s a Creator of this universe and we cannot live a life of immorality. When I see Jews supporting politicians that are pro-toiava I become very upset because it defeats the purpose of our existance. It is our job to send a message to the world of the purpose of creation. I think we should protest immorality, whether it is through ads or protests. That is not the same as kiruv.
What I’m trying to say is: Don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Those missionaries preyed on Yidden — most likely on those doing kiruv — in order to learn how to present themselves as Orthodox Jews. Don’t blame the victims for the actions of the evil.I grew up with one of the biggest leaders in the Messianic movement, and his biggest pride was that he had learned in “an Orthodox yeshiva.” He had attended a Chabad yeshiva for 6 months and then brought what he learned back to the rest of his crew, training them in.
Is it an issue? Yes. It’s a very big issue. But the blame doesn’t fall on those who are giving water to the those who are truly thirsty. The blame falls on those who are deceptive and twisting our Torah and abusing our kindness.
Commonsaychel; not that I think it matters, but I do have a shaychus to people who are “shem davar”s in satmar…the version I’ve heard a lot from one of my rebbeim, who grew up in Williamsburg, is that the satmar rov said to the lubavitcher rebbe, that if a house is on fire, do you save the broken furniture or the intact pieces? The lubavitcher rebbe supposedly said that we’re dealing with neshomos, not furniture. My understanding is that the satmar rov’s opposition to kiruv was more because we needed to rebuild our kehilos rather than spend resources on helping others. Can you bring a source to the contrary?
For the record, many people who are related to gedolim cannot be used as evidence of what that gadol held. Some of Rav Moshe’s einiklach are a very, very good example of this.
Novelty, your story is just proving my point. We need to protect what we have and not open the door to missionaries as is becoming more common these days. It is not about throwing out the baby with the bathwater, we need to protect our kids and our communities, not lower our defenses to a world that is looking to devour us.
And again, we cannot have people claiming to have Jewish grandmothers, and then becoming frum and integrating in our communities when they can just as well be equally non-Jewish or Jewish. And on top of that, kids who were bought up in the secular society of pro-lgtbq have serious mental and emotional issues that can be a virus c”v, and on top of that, frum families doing kiruv in today’s secular world is a danger to them. It is beyond our capabilities to do kiruv without endangering our own children and communities.
I have been talking against kiruv for years already. As time goes by I see more and more how right I am about this issue. And I’m right simply because I’m realistic. I don’t let people guilt me into changing the awareness of reality with the hype of “we need to love our fellow Jews”. There’s a place for that too in Yiddishkeit of course, but this is not what Hillel meant, to let the dangers in within our midst. We are not smarter than our gedolim of previous centuries when so many assimilated for many reasons and there was no mass kiruv movements. While 15+ years ago kiruv was doable for many reasons, today, outside of Israel, kiruv is not a viable option anymore.
Avira, the way you talk about baalei teshuva is nauseating
CS: The Satmar Rebbe ZT’L brought Teimani Yidden to Kiryas Yoel.
ujm, how is that relevent to the conversation? The Teimani were 100% frum.
I don’t believe it was the previous Satmer Rebbe who bought the ALREADY FRUM Teimanah to America and Kiryas York, I think it was the current Satmere Rebbe. But it doesn’t matter which Satmer Rebbe it was, the Teimanah were already frum, there was no seeking to make them baalei teshuvas, only to give them an opportunity to continue their mesorah. I think the previous Rebbe bought some Argentinians to KJ, but again, they were frum people prior to their arrival in KJ as well.
Teimanah and Argentinians who didn’t shtell zich tzi to the Satmere rules, they couldn’t fit into the Satmer mold, weren’t welcome anymore. I’m not saying it in a way to bring out any negative aspects of either the Teimanah, Argentinians or the Satmere, I’m just saying that the Satmere are very on top of keeping out influences they don’t desire.
Avira, your reference to the furniture discussion matches the one I brought between Satmarer and Chazon Ish that yeshivas are the midbar away from negative influence. At some point, it is not fire or midbar any more, observant Jews need to look for the whole nation.
People here bring examples of confused people coming in.. by definition, if you stay inside, you don’t see millions of those who are getting lost. By some knowledgeable people, 4 out of current 6 mln Jews in USA are on the way to extinction. Definite statistics is that currently only 2% of Jews change denomination, the growth of O Jews is solely internal
In the place where Baelei Teshuvah stand, even perfect tzadikim do not.
Chiming in again.
The smart thing that many rabbonim do when someone claims Jewish identity is to have the person in question undergo a safek geirus if there is not concrete proof of Jewish lineage. That means the person must have a strong kesher with a community, affirm their beliefs as being 100% kosher, and that they are knowledgeable as to how to live as a Jew. This clears up problems with lineage.
One of the questions that, IMO, should be asked is if they reject Yoshke as being the messiah and as being divine. No believer in him would dare risk their so-called “eternal life” by rejecting him.yid > In the place where Baelei Teshuvah stand,
this is why I frankly don’t like the word “kiruv”, a little snobbish implying you are better than him and trying to bring to the same place as you are. And you are in a perfect place already (I believe Chabad is not using this word and is able to do the job somehow)
Some Hosid was explaining to Gerer Rebbe that he is davening in a particular shul of baalei teshuva “although I am not one of them”. Rebbe replied – “why not?”
I guarantee you, if they want in badly enough, they’ll get in — without or without the kiruv movement.
Do you not recall the story of the “kohen” who wanted the fat tail of the korban?
There was no kiruv movement then… Unless, of course, we’d like to call our naviim as kiruv leaders, which they were.
They may not have been inviting people to their Shabbos tisches, but they were spreading the word of Hashem in a dark and sinful world. The entire Nach is about people who were worshipping Baal and committing the most heinous of averos.
Eliyahu HaNavi had to orchestrate a drought in order to for the people to be willing to listen to his words, and then he had to demonstrate the greatness of Hashem.
He didn’t just ignore the Yidden who were far away.We Jews are one organism. You can’t let the foot get cut off and expect the rest of the body to not suffer. At the same time, you can’t let gangrene spread up and affect the rest of the body.
Kiruv has to be done carefully, with guidance. But it has to be done.The Christian missionary fake Jews are examples of real symptoms of this problem. But quantity-wise they are a tiny subset of the issue. The far larger issue is with the Reform/Conservative, where a large percentage of their members are gentiles.
AAQ:
“(I believe Chabad is not using this word and is able to do the job somehow)”
Yep. Look at these stories from Chabad.org
“Take the case of the rabbi who wrote to the Rebbe boasting that he was involved in outreach. He used the Hebrew term kiruv rechokim, which translates as “bringing close those who are distant.” The poor rabbi must have really regretted that letter. The Rebbe wrote back indignantly:You call them “distant”?! What gives you the right to say that you are close and they are far? You must approach each one of them as though you are the King’s servant sent with a message to His most precious child!
Others who spoke with the Rebbe on the subject have similarly groped and fallen. One Chabad supporter told the Rebbe about a Shabbaton he had sponsored for over forty couples who “had no Jewish background.”
“No what?” the Rebbe responded, as though in shock.
“No Jewish background,” was the hesitant response.
“Tell them that they have a background! Their background is that they are children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!” the Rebbe replied.”
Aposhitehyid – so please tell us why in chabad, if you’re not a “gazan” you can’t marry “gazan* families, or if you’re a BT, you can only marry other BTs and gerim?
Chabad says outwardly that all jews are the same, but inwardly, they separate classes of people more than most groups.
Avira, marriage is a whole different ballgame than anything else. That’s the case by almost everyone and every group. Rabbonim seek to marry their children to children of Rabbonim rather than the working class. Rebbe’s with Rebbishe families. Sefardim with Sefardim. Rich families with other wealthy families, etc. Sure, there are exceptions. But this was always the case thoroughout history.
Novelty, indeed if a Jew wants to return Hashem will guide them in the right direction.
What’s a gazan? Never heard that word.
Novelty, actually I misunderstood. I didn’t realize you were talking about missionaries getting in
Ujm, this is why I said “more than other groups”. It’s a contradiction to stress the whole “you’re no different than a frei jew” party line while simultaneously discriminating against anyone who’s not an original Russian lubavitcher. No other group does that. Rebbishe families, yes; rich and poor….somewhat, but that’s not the case in the yeshivishe world, where being a ben torah usually assures a bochur a shidduch from a family more well off than his own. Rav belsky took a sefardi son in law, as did rav aharon shechter, because these aren’t the biggest concerns for most of klal yisroel. Sefardim is more of a cultural thing, but the are plenty of mixed marriages (aside from the Syrian community).
Belz, vizhnitz, satmar, ger, munkatch, bialeh, boyan….name it; chasidim don’t have a problem with marrying someone whos parents aren’t from the town of their chasidus. We’re not talking about personal status; they discriminate based entirely on the town from which one’s forebears come from. Satmar did make an issue chitun, and it was earth shattering…it made a huge rift between chasidim of both sides, but it was along ideological lines, not “gazanus” – any chasidus which advocated voting was included.
It’s pure supremacism; and it’s everywhere, not just in Shidduchim…. that’s just where you can see it more.openly.
Novelty – uht azoi; you never heard of that word because only chabad discriminates so much as to group people by who is from “original chabad stock” and who isn’t
Hmmm. I differ on this one, Avira. People choose others similar to them not because there is supremacism, but because different groups value different things. Some people run after money and smartphones, others go for learning and higher levels of erlichkeit.
A rebbish family taking a modern boy for a rebbish girl just makes no sense. They wouldn’t be on the same page, wouldn’t understand each other, wouldn’t want the same things.
It would be introducing conflict where there should be none.
I get the divisions in shidduchim, even though I didn’t when I was in shidduchim. I wanted rebbish… And now, I realize that I’m pashut not on that level. That’s fine. I wasn’t created to be the same.Back to welcoming – where does it actually succeed? Below are my observations that are limited to several OOT areas, so please correct me.
Discussion here was about elementary schools. I know that many Israelis and Russians send their kids to O- schools for K- and then go to public. In the 80s, early Russian arrivals in NY would go to O- schools until they earn enough money and get to suburbs with better public schools. I’ve seen some of those kids later at Chabad houses – they definitely did not become observant from that school experience, but some got enough background to stop by. So, partial, very limited success.
As to MO schools that have a mixture of observant and non-observant kids, I met many ehriche yidden who graduated from such schools, but all of them seem to have observant and knowledgeable parents. I do not recall meeting anyone whose non-observant family sent them to a MO school and they are observant now. This may be an observation bias, as I would have less chances of meeting such parents.
Seems like chabad houses on campuses have high success rate. Hillels to some degree.
Do we have places where adults can go. In most places, it is hard to imagine an outsider coming in and getting involved in a community. I quoted here a report from the 80s, where most newly arrived Russians were reporting that they were not finding their places in shuls. Do we meet all those Jews anywhere, or we just waiting for them to show up at our school doors so that we can verify their Jewishness?!
aposhiteyid, thanks, you made my day. I did not know it was said explicitly. Makes sense, goes back to Rambam who write to a Ger that he can refer to Avraham even as he is not from the family – but on par with him.
Avira, I apologize, did not mean this to get into flame war. Should not have disregarded Ch.Chaim halakha not to say anything good about someone not universally accepted as tzadik, as there will an immediate negative story about them. I don’t think Lubavich marriage habits hurt many people – as if there are many volunteers to move with the family to Peoria, IL to have kiddush with the 9 Jews there. Hope I did not offend anyone from Peoria here.
Avirahdarah:
Just wondering, have you had some kind of negative experience with Chabad?
In more than one thread you seem to disprove of ChabadAlso Avirahdara:
What does Gazan mean?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.