October 25, 2021 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #2020572
@Aviria, In the Chadisher velt and in the vast majority of the yeshivishe velt no one would do a shidduch witth a BT or a ger unless there was a major pegam with that person or family [ie history of mental issues, jailed parent, broken home etc etc] It may not be fair but its fact, one of my neighbors is a great boy whos parents are BTs and the parents dont want BTs for mechetonim, and no one from the mainstream want to do a shidduch with them.October 25, 2021 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #2020579
Aposhitehyid; gazan is a term they use to denote geza’ah, stock; it is exclusive to chabad, and you won’t hear it in the kiruv circles. It’s a status for shiduchim, that even a chabad chossid whose grandparents were chabad, but they originally were skver, belz or whatever, then they will not do a shidduch with someone whose ancestors were originally Russian lubavitchers. This is silly because original chabad chasidim were not always chabad, since beforehand they were Litvish, but it’s more than silly, it’s supremacist and elitist, but much moreso than the norm of lifestyle/rebbishe/rosh yeshivishe families. Those are categories that are made to ensure that the couple get along, or for the kovod of Torah or rebbishe bloodlines. Here it’s simple geography that determines ones worthiness. In chabad, a rosh yeshiva whose grandparents were belz cannot marry an am haaretz whose grandparents were chabad.
Besides that, it runs totally against what they preach in the open about accepting every jew. I totally understand not marrying into families with pgam in their yichus, bnei nidah, gerim, and other things that actually have mekoros in the seforim – happens to be that gedolei yisroel have downplayed these concerns for quite some time, with rav moshe writing to disregard ben nidah as an issue if the boy is a ben Torah with good middos.
What chabad are saying is that the secular jew with the ponytail is no different than one of us, and we’ll get him to become frum, but he IS different regarding who he can marry. He is lower class. He is confined to BTs, no matter how much he’s shteiged. In contrast, a BT in the yeshiva world who has shed his former life and embraced learning fully with no remnant of his past will not be shut out. I know BTs of that caliber who married very choshuve families, because we have a meritocracy to a large degree.
Legitimate criticism doesn’t always come from having bad experiences. The only bad experiences I’ve had have been hearing avodah zara from them and having their missionaries descend on my neighborhood and yeshiva over the years.October 25, 2021 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #2020588
Also commonsaychel…. I’m referring more to BTs who become mainstreamed in early adolescence/childhood. They blend in completely and many don’t even know their background. I agree that with college BTs and above, their shidduch pool is limited to people like themselves… But with those types, you can usually tell within 5 minutes of talking to them that they’re BTs.October 25, 2021 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #2020584
Common, you’re right about chasidim, but here it’s running a lot deeper. By chasidim, it’s more because the BT has no family, and for chasidim checking into the family is like 80% of the shiduch. Here it’s a caste system which lumps all the nachis-dargas together while claiming everyone’s the same – satmar has no problem saying that a BT has a chisaron, and sometimes they’re right!October 25, 2021 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #2020631
@Avira, the problem is much deeper then no family, there maybe a pgam in the yichus, bnai niddah etc. One of my neighbors in a Emunas Yisroel type BT who daughter was a normal frum girl, got married to a satmar working boy “vos hut gerhantin bah gornisht” a strick in chasidish slang, marriage lasted for 6 months, I tell my BT chasidsih friends if they red you someone from the mainstream run for the hillsOctober 25, 2021 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #2020594
Hmmm. So Rabbi Yekusiel Farkash, originally from Satmar, made beautiful shidduch for his children. One of them married the daughter of one of the original shluchim…
I guess your theory isn’t totally watertight.October 25, 2021 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #2020637
It’s not my theory…. Ask someone from crown heights who is on the fence, not out to make a “kidush chabad” and just deny it.October 25, 2021 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #2020646
There was a chushiver lubabiviicher who was gaza and had a son who shall we say was not the prime example of a prized bucher got engaged to a BT plumbers daughter at the vort, the plumber told the chuvisher yid “mechuten zetch zich oyvin un” and the yid replied “nur vil man yungatch hut zich baleebed in din miedel mant min nisht az uz zennin mechutunim”October 25, 2021 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #2020639
Also, when did he get married? Chabad has become a lot more radical in the past few decadesOctober 26, 2021 1:35 am at 1:35 am #2020712
Avira, you seem to be most upset by hypocrisy: Chabad invites people in but does not marry, while other Chasidim do not invite and do not marry. I think both approaches have merits – we have people with very particular minhagim, lifestyles, and values. Outsiders might not feel the same affinity, even if they accept it externally. It takes someone of R Twersky’s stature to advise a non-gebrocht SIL and Talmid of a Rosh Yeshiva to go to the seder of his FIL and eat gebrocht there. (to be precise advise is to the wife/daughter). Most poshute Yidden will be in a pretzel about this (pardon the hametzdik expression). Even more so with Chabad families who are driven both by teachings and practical activities of their group for several generations.October 26, 2021 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #2020880
@avira, “I’m referring more to BTs who become mainstreamed in early adolescence/childhood. They blend in completely and many don’t even know their background.”
I am taling about kids who grew up from but the parents are BTsOctober 26, 2021 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2021002
common > I am talking about kids who grew up from but the parents are BTs
I noticed too. How many generations BTs need to undergo before they will be accepted into your esteemed community – same as mitzrim or more? How about people coming from gerim like R akiva, Ben bag bag and Itzhak Avinu?October 26, 2021 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #2021023
@AAQ, I am not talking about any particular community but the chasidish and black hats, my guess its 3 generationsOctober 26, 2021 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #2021043
CS, sad. Better than Moabites, at least. I suggest we apply the same principle to those unobservant people who flaunted covid regulations.October 26, 2021 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #2021044
CS, do they consider people who were MO but then donned a black hat also BTs, or there are easier acceptance rules for them?October 26, 2021 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #2021126
@AAQ, “I suggest we apply the same principle to those unobservant people who flaunted covid regulations”
Different stroke for diferent folks, if this is what important for you in shiddichim be my guest, just be prepeard for belly laugh in responseOctober 27, 2021 6:34 am at 6:34 am #2021238
I am actually shocked to the core that Lubavitche whose Yiddishkeit seems to revolve around being mekarev Yidden do not marry BTs. I always assumed that they don’t have a problem being zich meshadech with BTs. I think this is extremely unfair.
Chassidishe are generally not meshadech with BTs unless there are issues in the family. Geirim often have an easier time with shiddichim in the Chassidishe world. But Chassidim don’t make baalei teshuvas. If you are not comfortable that your child marry a BT then don’t be mekarev them because you are obviously not comfortable with their yichus so how can you just bring these people in and drop them like hot potatoes as soon as they are frum and let others take care of their issues…that to me sounds horrible.October 27, 2021 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2021480
“Geirim often have an easier time with shiddichim in the Chassidishe world” thats because if the person went to a reliable bais din, there is no issue that he/she is a kosher yid, whereas with a BT there is a good chance the mother/ grandmother is a shiksa, not to mention issues of bnai niddahOctober 27, 2021 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #2021506
I was brought into the chasidishe world and I married a very normal chasidishe person who was always frum. A little bit of an interesting family history, but a healthy, normal person.
Wasn’t dropped like a hot potato.
I think the generalizations should just stop…October 27, 2021 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #2021559
I think there is a difference between a unique non-observant individual who decided to join a chasidishe shtibl and gets special attention and needs to be fully “taken care of” and Chabad approach that brought multitudes to Yiddishkeit, some forming a large sub-community within Chabad or joined general Jewish observant community. None of these 2 groups need to marry an old-time Lubavicher to fulfil themselves (no they are ready to).October 27, 2021 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #2021732
Novelty, what was the “little bit of an interesting family history”?October 28, 2021 10:17 am at 10:17 am #2021878
Nothing too interesting. But that’s getting too personal already, so we’ll leave it at that.October 28, 2021 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #2021888
Its a blat flek in the family for the most part, disfuction, divorice, prison record, history of mental illness etc. and that makes it less desirable.October 28, 2021 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2021912
Novelty, you always take the conversation back to your personal history. I asked you when you became a baal teshuva. Perhaps I missed your answer somewhere, but I do not think you responded to me on that. Not do you have to. But you should know that if you became a baal teshuva 10+ years ago then your personal by history is not relevent to the topic being discussed here about making baal teshuvas nowadays.October 28, 2021 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #2022001
Philosopher, I did answer earlier. I am in my mid-30’s so I’m not very old, but I did become frum in my teens, so it more than ten years.
Whether or not my story is reflective of general societal trends, there will also be roses among the thorns.October 28, 2021 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2022026
Novelty, the point is that you can’t refer to your becoming a BT over 15 years ago, which is not that long ago, but still there’s a huge difference from then to what is the reality today.November 1, 2021 1:24 am at 1:24 am #2023002
Another missionary family was just uncovered in Israel.November 1, 2021 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2023005
Let’s be real for a minute; does anyone here know anyone who has the slightest inclination towards Christianity? Even a hint of curiosity? We grow up knowing what they’ve done to us, I don’t think any frum or even any historically educated chiloni would tolerate it.
What I’m more concerned with, if we’re going to talk about the infiltration of foreign religions, is the proliferation of energy healing practitioners who peddle their wares to desperate frum families beset with woe and pain. There are even rabbis who back them… yidden who would cover their ears if they heard kiekergaard quoted have no problem with eastern bonafide avodah zara – it’s mind boggling and very scary. One prominent figure in Lakewood, a posek for a large constituency said to his talmidim that they can ask “the kochos” for help in healing, because it’s derech refuah and they don’t mean to daven to it. When my rebbe rav belsky heard this his exact word was “crackpot”November 1, 2021 9:31 am at 9:31 am #2023064
Unfortunately, the missionaries target our weakest elements, such as the elderly or teens who’ve had a hard life and haven’t yet “found themselves.” There have been a two conversions to Christianity in my state that I am aware of in the last 5 years.
Are the missionaries wildly successful? No, baruch Hashem, and they never will be. But their tactics have changed over the years. Instead of trying to convert Jews to “Christianity” they now train their missionaries to speak in Jewish terms, trying to convince people belief in Yoshke is supposed to be the most Jewish thing to do… They have whole trainging manuals on how to talk to Jews. They will twist and twist the Torah and confuse people in their attempt to convince them that belief in Yoshke is kosher and, in fact, what Hashem wants.
So many Christians now walk around with a kippah and tallis and speak in Hebrew or Yiddish in order to woo people to their movement. They distance themselves from the crimes of Christianity, saying that it wasn’t Yoshke’s intent for that to happen.
Anything to get Jews to “believe.”
As for alternative medicine, it’s a very iffy area that many people aren’t aware of as being dangerous. Rav Belsky was very against many forms of alternative medicine.November 2, 2021 12:10 am at 12:10 am #2023450
I agree with both Avira and Novelty – eastern stuff is quote mainstream, while some marginal Jews may be affected by the local religion. I once encountered a professional contact who was interested in proselytizing. I replied nicely. He then went to another person who is not shomer shabbos and was told away in a less polite way. He was eventually also shun by his co-religionists because he was not fully frum in business matters also.
A story from a MO Rav – a teenager BT asked him regarding Indian dolls that his mother was keeping at home as a momento. They contacted a frum professor on the topic, who looked at picture and marked up which ones are avodah zara mamash. The guy first moved them inside the house to see if mom would notice. She did not, so they brought these to a workshop and had a real smash at it. Some rebbe brought his class to learn halakha l’maase.November 2, 2021 12:18 am at 12:18 am #2023452
Avram wasn’t worried whether Terach would notice that he smashed his Avoda Zora.November 2, 2021 1:38 am at 1:38 am #2023458
Avram was worried – he came up with the whole story of idols fighting each other. A smart kid.
Also, Terach would obviously notice the loss, as he was in business selling them. This mom just had it stored. I think this was handled perfectly.November 2, 2021 2:26 am at 2:26 am #2023472
I agree with Novelty.
First of all missionaries can easily confuse those who don’t understand to such things, they can put down their ideoligy in a way that doesn’t seem to go against Judaism and many Jews who do not know Judaism well, even if they consider themselves frum, can easily be influenced. Teens at risk can easily be influenced. I know 3 teens from really frum families that have “converted” to Christianity and this was a few years ago, before all these missionaries infiltrated the community posing as Jews. We cannot take these things lightly.November 2, 2021 9:20 am at 9:20 am #2023507
Philosopher; not to be paranoid, but we really don’t know how long ago these infiltrations happened – it could be there have been agents doing these things for decades, preying on the kind of people you described. I still don’t think it’s even a miut she’aino matzui – kids going off happens all the time r”l, but aside from your story, I’ve never heard of any becoming christianNovember 2, 2021 10:23 am at 10:23 am #2023558
Most of the new age drivel such as energy healing etc. was imported to our community by BTsNovember 2, 2021 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #2023606mserenParticipant
Let’s be honest: FFB’s are mostly just living their lifestyles because they happened to be born into and they continue that lifestyle because it’s convenient, comfortable and there’s too much outside pressure to change. BT’s actually made a conscious life-changing decision to join a lifestyle they were unfamiliar with, and is full of crackpot idiots who think BT’s are “lower-class”, simply because they felt it is the right thing to do. They are living with purpose. It’s probably a good thing most FFB’s don’t marry BT’s; The BT’s are too good for them.
FYI: I’m FFB, my spouse is a BT.November 2, 2021 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #2023640
msern: Whilst I cannot argue with your point that your spouse could’ve done better as you’re beneath her, nevertheless your more generalized comment about FFBs is laughably off base and bears no semblance to reality.November 2, 2021 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2023644
Common….i really don’t want to name names, but by and large, BTs are very sensitive to such things, moreso than people who might be closer to frumkeit in action, but never had to undergo an overhaul of hashkofa and emunah. The average BT knows the 13 ikkarim and can rattle off kuzari, rav hirsch, chovos halevavos and more off their fingertips – they had to learn more hashkofa to cleanse themselves of their past. The only people I’ve heard defend such practices have been “unzerer”, usually non-MO too. There is unfortunately a member of the moetzes who actively encourage energy healing – it pains me every time I think about it
Nobody’s listening to BTs that have long hair and are oisvarfs; it seems you have an axe to grind about BTs in general, that they’re the ones responsible for bringing outside influences into the klal. If anyone’s been successful in that regard, it’s been both the “frum” colleges and the age of accessibility of information via the internet, especially the bloggers of the early 2000s. Avi Weiss and his ilk were all FFBs, if you can call them such, as were the orthodox feminists…to a lesser extent, the cultural icons who have had negative influences such as Lipa are likewise almost all FFB.November 2, 2021 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #2023668
Ujm, i have to partially admit that BTs usually bring an enthusiasm that is lacking in us – mitzvos anoshim melumada is an old yatzer hora and the default if you’re not a ben aliyah. There are countless enthusiastic, sincere and growing FFBs, but almost any BT who has become totally frum will have a lot of unique maalos. By and large, they did have to fight hard for their yiddishkeit. That doesn’t mean that they don’t have unique disadvantages too, such as vestigial remains of their former life, not knowing social boundaries, sometimes lacking in sensitivities that FFBs have. However there are other sensitivities that BTs excel in – they can spot goyishe ideas easily, and they also know a lot of hilchos deos, usually more than someone who went through the mainstream system.November 2, 2021 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #2023680mserenParticipant
Sigh. Seems like Joseph is still just as insecure as he always was. How very disappointing.November 2, 2021 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #2023690
Avira, the bloggers were mostly MOs.November 2, 2021 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #2023695
@Avira, there is a female BT writer who spent years in a ashram in fact headed one up who just write a book full of new age drivel.
PS I have nothing against BTs or MOs who flipped, I am close friends with quite a number of them.November 2, 2021 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #2023832
We have just read of a successful marriage between a BT and a FFB – Rivka and Yitzhak (note that the Torah mentions her name, not just Eshes Yirtzhak, but I digress). Both have something to contribute: his davening is apparently more successful, but she seems to be a better judge of childrens’ character.
Anyway, I hope nobody is in the habit of has vesholom saying “I am not a BT”. Everyone should be, as I already quoted The Gerer Rebbe.November 2, 2021 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #2023864
AAQ – how would Hashem have referred to rivka as mrs yitzchok before she was married?
Why the Torah sometimes refers to women as eshes so-and-so, and other times by their name is up for discussion… I’d imagine there are times that their significance is defined by their relationship with their husband, as in the case of eshes potifar, where the whole problem was that she was married, and ohn ben peles’ wife, who is noted for saving her husbandNovember 2, 2021 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #2023881
Avira, if Torah would be a modern book going thru ArtScroll, surely she would be called Mrs Yitzhok and the stories abot her youth would be omitted. could one imagine that Mrs Yitzhak would talk to some eved and even give him a drink and then agree to travel with him despite her mother’s wishes during the shiva for her father zal.
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