May 9, 2021 10:22 am at 10:22 am #1972145
Dear Reb Eliezer,
The majority of people are not Jews. Rov says that they all are Goyim. An outsider who shows up in a community does not have a chezkas kashrus. One who does not keep Shabbos is a mechalel Shabbos. There is no reason to doubt his Jewishness.a tinok shenishba is a Jew.
Whatever you just posted, makes no sense to me. Please explain.May 10, 2021 9:21 am at 9:21 am #1972467
When dressed in Jewish, chassiddish garb why questiion his jewishness. If someone says that he is kohen, do ww say prove it to provide him the aliyah first? Rov goyim don’t come to shul.May 10, 2021 9:40 am at 9:40 am #1972494
It amazes me why in so many Jewish areas, they choose to go to SCI chapels, rather than utilize Jewish owned and operated chapels.
When it comes to funerals, the rabbonim don’t care that the halacha is to patronize Jewish businesses. The SCI chapels are 30-40% MORE expensive than Jewish-owned funeral homes.
In 5 towns, the Vaad goes to Riverside in Hewlett, in Teaneck, to Gutterman Musicant, in Livingston, to Bernheim Apter Kreitzman (where the goy missionary is “Shomer”). All of these places are expensive, with a graveside funeral and plain pine box costing 9000 or so, without the grave opening fees. The removals (hotzaas hameis) is done al ydei akum, not al pi halacha. The goyim handle the meisim to check for ID Tags all throughout the process, and after the tahara, they set the features (sewing the mouth closed with string, or with a wire injector). Meanwhile, the staff is almost all goyim, and the profits go to SCI, a publicly traded company which owns over 2000 funeral homes and crematories.
Frum-owned places like Kehila Chapels, Shomrei haDas, Shomrei Hachomos are much, much cheaper, everything is done al ydei Yehudi, and al pi halacha. Plaza Jewish Community Chapel (owned by the UJA federation) in Manhattan has an Orthodox rav on the staff, and they charge 4000 dollars less than Riverside down the block.May 10, 2021 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1972503ujmParticipant
Dov: So why do any of the frum families choose the goyish owned homes rather than the frum ones?May 10, 2021 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1972582
Dear Reb Eliezer,
Ladies are Jewish. Give them alliyos. Huh? Seriously, let’s say there is someone in our shul whom we know is a safek yisrael. Is there an issur to give him an aliya? I’m aware that we should avoid it.
Jewish dress proves nothing. In halachah there isn’t any concept of Jewish dress. We have been through this one a number of times, and you still have not brought anything real. See the classic interpretations on the verse in Nechemia. The foreigners clothes refer to specific clothes worn for idol worshippers. Rashi etc. did not even consider that there could be a problem with dressing like a non-Jew.
Rov goyim not coming to shul, is not a rov. And if it was, it should prove that this fellow is a goy. He came from those outside the shul.May 10, 2021 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1972585
I don’t know. Ignorance of halacha and metzius, I’m guessing.May 10, 2021 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1972601
Maybe availability?May 10, 2021 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1972647
There’s no shortage in our area of Jewish-owned chapels which do things al pi halacha.
There’s Yereim, Shomrei Hadas, Shomrei Hachomos, the Sons of Israel chapel in Lakewood, Bais Yisroel in New Square, Kehila Chapels, Jewish Memorial Chapel (Clifton), Plaza in Manhattan.
In every case, these chapels are much cheaper than an SCI chapel.
SCI chapels charge 350 dollars for tachrichim, 700 dollars to “use” tahara room (ie. sheets and water, and a 3 dollar packet of afar from Har haZeisim), and a total of 8000-9000 dollars for a basic levaya, minus grave opening charges.
In Plaza, for instance, they charge 5000 dollars for everything minus the grave opening.
Shomrei Hadas and Shomrei Hachomos are also very cheap.May 10, 2021 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1972662
There is no good reason why these chapels turn away niftarim.May 10, 2021 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1972702
n0messorah, I am over seventy and gone to many shuls and was never asked, are you Jewish? All your argument is ridiculous. If someone comes to a shul, we assume he/she is Jewish.May 10, 2021 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1972740
Dear Reb Eliezer,
We assume he is Jewish enough to let him stay. We should not assume he is Jewish to let him marry another Jew.May 11, 2021 8:19 am at 8:19 am #1972845
RebE > as never asked, are you Jewish
n0 > We should not assume he is Jewish to let him marry another Jew.
and this is how it supposed to be, as far as I know. RebE may look more Jewish than I do, as once ina while I run into gabbaim who mumble while walking – Kohen? (me – nodding no), Levi (no), Isroel?
As this last question (whether asked on purpose or without thinking) just is halakhically inappropriate, I would nod a little so that he might think I am again saying “no” and suddenly stops in his track and ponders implications. I then ask back – and why did you ask?
RebE, if you are a Kohen or a Levi, or wear a shtreimel, you may get a different treatment.
An example of the opposite, when I stayed with a Bobover friend for shabbos. When the Rebbe Z’L walked in and saw someone dressed differently, he ran to shake my hand before his followers.May 11, 2021 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1972933
This week we have vayisyaldu al mishpochasom – heviu sefer yechusehem, proving their lineage.May 11, 2021 9:01 am at 9:01 am #1972960
@AAQ, I saw a clip of Michael Elk’s sons bris, he was hardly able to read hebrew and this is someone we buy stam from? podeh our bechorim?
As to the the story with the Bobover Ruf ztl, while he was mechakev everyone including those who disagreed with him he had zero tolerance for breachs of halacha, there was two brothers who left the fold and one of the two married a shiksa when the third brother [who remaind in bobov] made a bris the two brothers came and the one who married Jewish was warmly greeted by the Ruf and he talked with him for a while and he totally ignored the brother who intermarriedMay 11, 2021 9:23 am at 9:23 am #1972976🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
AAQ – i am sorry you felt put down by that experience. I think it is obvious that one can welcome someone warmly on the chance they are a jew, while one passing out sliyahs does not have that luxury. Perhaps if the gabbai saw you at a kiddush he would have responded differentlyMay 11, 2021 10:08 am at 10:08 am #1972998
Common, really? so he was not even good at that? reminds me of a sevorah of a 100 years ago I heard of: some American Jews were suspicious of quality of the Torahs coming from Europe. Of course, Europeans would send worse sifrei to America – where else would they be able to sell those!?
so, it is a consumer fault, not only a producer …
re: Bobover. I did not come to disagree! I just did not own a shtreimel – and could not afford it at a time! According to his nephew R Twersky, Bobover had a party line that cut his conversation off should his neighbors start theirs. It happened frequently, despite reminders. He would suddenly interrupt an intense conversation in the middle of the sentence, sigh, and say quietly, let’s go and remind them again.May 11, 2021 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1973007
thanks for your empathy. I was not put down, I always enjoy coming up with a good tirutz and a teachable moment. Hope that the gabbai learned the lesson and saved someone else from feeling down. Can you imagine if he would ask this of a ger?!
the halakhic point is that you are not supposed to research yichus for an aliya. If someone is not a kohen/levi in shul, he is presumed to be isroel. Please correct me if I am off here. May be different from a kohen, as people might use this as a sign that the person is a kohen.May 11, 2021 11:00 am at 11:00 am #1973011
While we are on stories, once, when a grad student and had a conference on a Friday, I called a local Rav and asked for a place to stay for Shabbos. He asked me nicely whether I am X, Y, or Z group of Jews. I replied “Jewish”. He stopped the questioning and invited me immediately.May 11, 2021 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1973017
In terms of birur yahadus, there are many difficulties.
If a guy comes into a shul wearing a yarmulke, let’s say, there’s no reason to not count them in a minyan or give them an aliyah. If they want to get married, we have to investigate. The problem is, in an era of Reform and Conservative changing the halacha of Jewish status, geirus, intermarriage, mamzerus, etc., how do we really know? How many people can furnish a picture of their maternal grandmother’s matzeivah or kesuba? How many people have a conversion certificate, especially from years ago, when any 3 rabbis did conversions and those rabbis died and their shuls closed down? It takes big shoulders to deal with these issues.
In the case of Elk, the ball was dropped. How did he manage to learn Hebrew well enough to learn safrus and milah, get semicha, and somehow learn in a mekubalishe yeshiva?May 11, 2021 11:17 am at 11:17 am #1973041
Dear Dov Rosenbaum,
The problem here is relying off documents without a real person. In our day it is too easy to fabricate boy picture or document.May 11, 2021 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1973043
So what do you make of that, people just do not care or think? It would follow that it is not a communal failing.May 11, 2021 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1973051
I think I read he relied on a get, which is erroneous, since a beis din woud give a get l’chumrah without doing any verification of the kesubah.May 11, 2021 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1973050
@ Dov R, its amazing what doors open when you flash a piece of paper with Ben Franklin on itMay 11, 2021 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #1973087
Dov: beis din woud give a get l’chumrah without doing any verification of the kesubah.
I heard similar, don’t know whether it is true. If true, this is an even bigger breakdown in one beis din not understanding what the other one is doing, and not asking them. As they say, AAQ!
Maybe, beis din applies irs-like discretion: they would be calling up grandmothers and check their Yiddish for suspicious Russians, but no reason to suspect an Americai who “looks like us”. This is probably decided by who is assigned to the caseMay 26, 2021 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1977612
As reported by YWN, Michael Elk is moving to Bet Shemesh I guess he missed being with English speakersMay 26, 2021 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1977847
Israel should use Al Capone approach – tax him on all the refrigerators that he brought in for his “aliya”.May 27, 2021 7:46 am at 7:46 am #1977952
Everyone he defrauded should sue him for damages and emotional damages. That would destroy him real fast.May 27, 2021 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1978125
This is a great problem which needs prevention:
See https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1977496/another-chareidi-missionary-imposter-messianic-center-in-downtown-jerusalem.htmlMay 27, 2021 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1978063
Another missonary exposed dressing up as a frum yid:
An individual known as Timothy Buckles, Tim Layne, and Ami Ron Buckles, living in Jerusalem and posing as an Orthodox Jew, has been accused of being a covert Messianic Christian missionary.
Maybe we should start being less welcomingMay 27, 2021 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #1978156
More than one individual. They are being trained in a ‘missionary shul center’.May 27, 2021 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #1978287
Who is to say that being less welcoming would keep missionaries out? It would definitely keep out real Jews too. And that would make it even easier for the missionaries…..May 28, 2021 8:05 am at 8:05 am #1978318🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
great answerMay 28, 2021 8:26 am at 8:26 am #1978353
” And that would make it even easier for the missionaries…..” how so?May 28, 2021 9:43 am at 9:43 am #1978385
The easiest pray for missionaries are Jews that do not know much and have a weak connection with other Jews.May 28, 2021 11:00 am at 11:00 am #1978448
The missionaries are already after the unaffilated Jews, the level of Michael Elk and company brings the chutzpah to a whole new level.
PS the word is prey not pray, but I got a good laugh because of the subject matterMay 28, 2021 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1978528
I think these missionaries put an extra value on a Jew v. a heathen. It seems like a transformation of the medieval view that Jews in ghettos is the proof that they are right. Now, they feel that they need our approval. This would explain why they are specifically interested in observant Jews.May 28, 2021 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1978524
They become a mohel but upset afterwards for not getting severance pay.June 3, 2021 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #1980130☕️coffee addictParticipantJune 4, 2021 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1980272
@coffee addict, thats awesome, now what are places like yeshiva chonnen daas that gave this missonary Simicha going to do differently? not a word from this people of saying we messed up.June 6, 2021 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #1980610
Wow the same old guard morons that wanted to force us into the ghettos are now trying to infiltrate them.
It’s a shame they are so insecure with their beliefs, the amount of effort they attempt others to join in that nonsense is astonishing.June 7, 2021 10:52 am at 10:52 am #1980802June 7, 2021 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1980971
common, you seem to presume that Italian Jews volunteered to live a sheltered life behind the walls. You are projecting.June 8, 2021 5:51 am at 5:51 am #1980987mdd1Participant
After one case we should start being very suspicious and start pushing people away?!? Is this the way of Avrohom Avinu? A good way to fulfill the ma’amar Chazal “hevey oheiv es ha’brioyos u’mekarvam le’Torah”? And one wonders why there is no Beis Ha’Mikdash. Also, just a warning — if you treat other Yidden this way, expect being treated similarly by the Beis Din shel Ma’alah.June 8, 2021 9:53 am at 9:53 am #1981040
@mdd1, the same chazal says asay seyug ltorah and yhay mechenecha kodosh, when someone manages to breech the seyug of our commmunity and is a mohel, an aiyd, a sofer some serious look inward is the order of the day. Would you feel the same way if a molester snuck into a school?June 8, 2021 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1981179
> Is this the way of Avrohom Avinu?
2020 pew research shows only 2% of conservatives becoming O-. as well as 1% of Reform and unaffiliated. So, we are definitely not welcoming enough despite well publicized efforts…June 8, 2021 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1981225
@common, unpack your question please unless you are being rhetorical and if so why?June 9, 2021 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #1981577
@lostpark, what countries did your grandparents come from?June 9, 2021 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1981630
@common, no need to be enigmatic, where are you going with this?September 10, 2021 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #2006730
As reported by YWN, the saga continues:
The children of the American missionary “kohen” Michael Cohen, who lived with his family in the Chareidi community in French Hill in Jerusalem before his identity was discovered in April, are attending a religious school in the Jerusalem suburb of Mevaseret Tzion, B’Chadrei Chareidim reported.
The principal of the Gonenim mamlachti dati (state-religious) school, where the children are enrolled, told B’Chadrei that she discovered the true identity of the family only after receiving phone calls from concerned parents of children in the school.
The principal added that although she has made numerous efforts for months to have the children removed, nothing has been done, explaining that the school administration is not permitted to make an independent decision to expel students and the move can only be carried out by the Education Ministry.
“I appealed to the state-religious administration but so far nothing has been done,” she said. “Over the summer I repeatedly appealed to the state-religious education inspector but my hands are tied. I can’t do anything because it’s not within the realm of my responsibility.”
(YWN Israel Desk – Jerusalem)
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