September 1, 2011 2:34 am at 2:34 am #599063
If you ask someone for mechila and he doesn’t grant it, you are supposed to ask him again for mechila another two times. If he hasn’t granted it after the third time, you’ve done your duty and needn’t ask again.
At that point what happens? Are you forgiven even though he wasn’t moichel? If not, why shouldn’t you ask a fourth (or more) time?
And where does this point (to ask only three times) come from?
Also, if you are the one being asked for mechila (and assuming the request is sincere), are you obligated to give it? On the first time? The third time? What are the consequences of not granting mechila?September 1, 2011 2:38 am at 2:38 am #805152
I know. I love it.
I hurt people badly, then I ask them for mechila three times before rosh hashana, and when they say no, they are the ones to go to gehenom.
How awesome is that?September 1, 2011 2:58 am at 2:58 am #805153
How long must you wait between asking each time?
I would imagine Are you moichel? No. Are you moichel? No. Are you moichel? … doesn’t cut it.September 2, 2011 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #805155
Anyone?September 2, 2011 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #805156
If you are sincere when asking mechila and the other person does not want to forgive then the “onus” shifts to the other person. The reason being is that Hashem forgives us when we do Teshuva and ask mechila and therefore we must learn from this and be forgiving ben adam l’chaveiro. If a person is so stubborn and wishes to hold on to the pain and not forgive a person who sincerely has done Teshuva and is sincerely asking for forgiveness then that person is the one in the wrong and he carries the “onus” to make it right.September 2, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #805157
Each time needs to be of a different “level”. What that means is the first time go up to him yourself. If he says no, the second time go up to him with two people (which will most likely compel him to say yes). If he still says no, go up to him with more (like 5?).September 2, 2011 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #805158
The point is not to ask for Mechila. The Lashon you’ll find in Shas and Halacha is to be Mefayes him. Piyus means to apologize and to make the person feel better by explaining that you truly regret what you’ve done and you will try to make up for it.
Also, Shaas Kaaso does not count and is actually a form of Onaa. Shaas Kaaso will have to be calculated in each case separately. If the pinch is still hurting do not ask for Mechila. What did you you do for that person that he owes you a Mechila Gemura Beleiv Shalem? Not only did you wrong him, now he owes you for it, too!?September 2, 2011 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #805159
How do you define Shaas Kaaso?September 2, 2011 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #805160
Mechila is one of the toughest things to do.September 2, 2011 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #805161
someone basically stole a large sum of money from me many years ago, at a time that i REALLY needed the money. i wasnt moichel the debt but i was moichel him. eventually i was moichel the debt as well, when i realized he was never going to pay it back, so that it should not be on his record.
certainly my mechilah of his debt was effective, but my mechilah of him was not with a full heart. nevertheless whenever i thought of it i asked the Abishter to please accept my mechilah even though i couldnt quite do it with an open heart. i did this for many years and i the mechilah became fuller each time, especially as time passed. its the best i could do.September 2, 2011 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #805162
This is clearly beyond the halachik requirement of mechila.
“…the mechilah became fuller each time, especially as time passed.“
Sounds like a good way of doing things.September 2, 2011 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #805163
am yisrael chaiParticipant
Thank you both Icot & Dr80 for the inspiration.September 2, 2011 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #805164
It helps to separate and to quantify. To decide that the person was/is wrong, but I won’t remain angry. Often times I look back at those who have wronged me, as a fellow actor in a play. It is now in the past.
When you define something strongly it become academic and unemotional. When you think, he was surely a Baheima for grabbing that out of my hands, you can now stop being angry at that Baheima. You can even be friendly while being careful not to allow him to repeat his prior actions. You can be friendly toward, and even love, an animal, but you won’t trust a sandwich in front of it.
There are people to whom I carry no grudge at all, although I know that they were wrong. I know not to trust their judgement, and I’m also aware of their many fine qualities.September 2, 2011 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #805165
At other times. Sincerely. Not when it is still fresh and they are still angry.September 2, 2011 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #805166
am yisrael chai–
Thank you, but only one of us is worthy of your kind words. Hint – it’s “Moderator-80”, who was actually able to be mochel both the financial and personal offenses.
Your way of thinking works to an extent, and I try to employ it, e.g. “take it from whom it’s coming”, “he/she has issues” and so on.
But I’ll say this too – even good things can have a downside, and a good memory has the disadvantage of being able to recall offenses all too well.
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