September 4, 2009 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #590343
I recently B”H made a simcha. A Rav with whom I’ve had a connection for about 20 years failed to show up depite an invitation both through mail and in person. I don’t take it personally as I know from others that this is his, so to speak, “minhag”.
Nevertheless, I feel that it a shortcoming in his middos to not show up even for 5 minutes and wish us a hearty Mazel Tov.
Which brings me to my topic. I’ve believe I once heard that the Roshei Yeshiva in Lakewood are particular to attend simchas since they have a mesorah from Rav Shnuer z”tl
something to the effect that ‘if you’re invited you attend’. I am interested in your comments on this and things you may have heard about the importance/unimportance of attending anothers simcha.
P.S. This was a local Simcha for that Rav about a 5 minute drive from his house I am not talking about simchas that are a half hour or more away.September 4, 2009 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #657454artchillParticipant
Grow a little tougher skin! This should be your biggest problem in life.September 4, 2009 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #657455
Perhaps the Rav had 9 other Simchas where everyone would have been happy with 5 minutes of his attendance on the same night? Is it possible that he has this minhag because he finds it difficult to travel all over town many times a week, even if only for 5 minutes at a simcha?September 4, 2009 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #657456FunnyBunnyMember
Maybe we could use some Dan L’Kaf Zechus here- perhaps the Rav was sick, or spending time with his family, or attending to one of the hundreds of millions of things a Rav has to take care of. I remember when the Rav of our shul did not show up at my only brother’s Bar Mitzvah, and we found out the next day that his wife had gotten pretty sick. Hopefully, that is not the case here, but until you know for sure why he did not show up, please do not judge him.September 4, 2009 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #657457
artchill, Sheesh! I said I don’t take it personally so don’t worry about the thickness of my skin. I am questioning whether it is derech eretz or not.
jphone, yes, I can also be ‘dan l’caf zchus’. You also missed my point. In any case, he isn’t that popular a Rav to have 9 simchas in one night and when I spoke to him in person he didn’t mention a word about other commitments.September 4, 2009 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #657458
do you respect this Rav?
do you trust his judgment?
do you value his ability to make decisions?
do you think he should make his desicions according to your judgement, or his?
when one questions someone elses’ Middos or actions, sometimes Hashem presents you with that situation and is waiting for your judgement if you so choose, because Hashem is waiting to judge you for the same quality or action. and you will be judged according to how you judge the other.
think this over deeply and be carefulSeptember 4, 2009 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #657459
FunnyBunny, I am well aware of being Dan L’Kaf Zechus. However, as I mentioned it is this Rav’s “minhag” to not show up at simchas of many of his mispallalim. One isn’t required to go out on a limb to be Dan L’Kaf Zechus. If it is a normal possabilty that fits with the nature of the person you are being dan them by all means. However, if the person always does a certain action you don’t have to be Dan L’Kaf Zechus.September 4, 2009 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #657460anon for thisParticipant
Perhaps asking him about this would ease your mind.September 4, 2009 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #657461
Mazel tov on your simcha! May it be one of many many more!
The Rav’s level of derech eretz is not anyone’s business, that fact that you extended an invitation is a nice gesture but that is where your part ends. If the Rav would have come and only stayed for 5 minutes well some would say that was rude. So The Rav is in a no win situation. And if you already know that this is his “minhag” why is this an issue?September 4, 2009 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #657462
Don’t worry about the Rav’s derech eretz, tzaddik’l. Worry about your own.September 4, 2009 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #657463
One isn’t required to go out on a limb to be Dan L’Kaf Zechus.
actually one IS required to go out on a limb to Dan L’Kaf Zechus.
and if you want the RibbonoShelOlam to “go out on a limb” in judging you, you had better “go out on a limb” when judging others, especially a Talmid Chochom.
again, be careful, and listen to what others are telling you
cool-off, ignore your Yetzer. try to remove the feelings from your heart and think about this objectively.
listen to what others are telling youSeptember 4, 2009 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #657464
I wrote above,
“I am interested in your comments on this and things you may have heard about the importance/unimportance of attending anothers simcha.”
I am NOT interest in a mussar schmooze in the details of how/importance of being Dan L’Kaf Zechus or working on my skin thickness and putting my mind at ease. I am interested in what I wrote above, v’ze hoo!!September 4, 2009 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #657465YW Moderator-80Member
We know what you asked. You don’t always get what you ask for.
If you would like me to close this thread for you, just askSeptember 4, 2009 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #657466plangerMember
I don’t understand you all. A yid comes ???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? because his long time Rov hurt his feelings. All you frumacks are busy defending his Rov because you think that a Rov can do no wrong. Where is mussar? ???? ???? ?? ?????. ????! What would R. Yisroel Salanter do?
I’m very disappointed.September 4, 2009 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #657467
Thanks for the offer Mod 80. You can keep it open maybe I’ll be lucky enough to get a reply that is ‘tzim zach’.September 4, 2009 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #657468
Make no mistake – I am NOT defending the Rav.
I believe that this behavior is in very poor taste, classless and rude to not show up to a simcha but this is all presupposing that the Rav sent the RSVP.September 4, 2009 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #657469
All you frumacks are busy defending his Rov because you think that a Rov can do no wrong….I’m very disappointed
how do you know why we are defending his Rov? and calling everyone a derogatory term because we disagree with you? are YOU being dan l chaf zchus?
I am very disappointed.September 4, 2009 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #657470
Is it rude if 2nd cousin yankel doesnt show up? How close are you to this Rav? Are you sending him an invitation to be yotze inviting the Rav? If you are, perhaps he knows this and doesnt feel any achrayus to show up! Did the Rav indicate any commitment to attend when you pesonally invited him?September 4, 2009 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #657471
It is very nice and a real ‘plus’ for a Rabbi to attend a simcha, it is NOT a requirement on thier part! Who knows what the Rabbi could have been busy with? Maybe he’s a very busy posek? Who knows? It is his personal life that we are NOT here to judge. If he decides not to come, that’s his problem he has to deal with. It is not for us to decide if he’s right or wrong for doing so.September 4, 2009 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #657472
ames, thanks for understanding my point.September 4, 2009 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #657473
“The question is “what do you think about rabbis attending or not attending simchas”.
Personally, no different than how I would feel if my brother did or did not attend my Simcha, IF I was close to the Rav. If I was not, then it would “bother” me the same way it would bother me if 2nd cousin yankel didnt show up.
Then again, if I was close to my Rav, and he didnt show up at a Simcha, I would ask him if everything was ok just like i would if my own brother didnt show up at my simcha.September 4, 2009 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #657474
i hate disagreeing with ames but what can i do
this is a forum of free (to some extent anyway) discussion and it “is about” whatever the forum members make it about
all the posts have basically been directly related to the original post, although perhaps the flow didnt go exactly as the OP intended it too. the majority of threads here end up being totally unrelated to the original thread starter. this one is much better than most.September 4, 2009 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #657475
everyone who has responded understands your pointSeptember 4, 2009 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #657476artchillParticipant
If the Rav was supposed to be the Mohel at a bris but didn’t show, then you have a taynah!
But, for a Rav who beshitta doesn’t show up at simchas, (he feels they are Chaval Al Hakessef, and the money could be better spent supporting the poor of the community, etc.) what taynah can you have?
Every Rav and every person has their own comfort level, and no disrespect is intended. Having a photo-op which someone will post online or in a newspaper is not important to your Rav, he deserves endless credit for that. Kol Hakavod to him.September 4, 2009 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #657477
If the Rabbi as with ANY guest is available and sends a reply/RSVP saying that he will attend, he should attend.September 4, 2009 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #657478
i think probably the Rov would go to his brothers simcha. i would. (not the Rovs brother, my brother)
but i dont go to every simcha to which im invited. i have my own considerations when i decide whether to go to a particular simcha.
i would hope that when someone invites me to their simcha, they are INVITING me, not demanding my attendance.
i would hope they would respect my right to consider my own considerations and be considerate. i would hope they would rely on my right and ability to make such a decision about what they are ASKING of me
it is an invitation not a summonsSeptember 4, 2009 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #657479
I too hate disagreeing with ames, but as long as I’m with feivel I know that I’m not wrong.
You want to know whether or not it is derech eretz for a Rav to miss your simcha. And I responded that you have no business deciding whether or not what your Rav does is derech eretz. Actually, you have no business deciding whether or not what someone else does is derech eretz or not, unless you are the parent, rebbi (or rav) of that person and responsible for the person’s chinuch. As far as whether or not you have a right to expect a Rav to show up because you think it is derech eretz for him to do so, you do not have that right. It is for him to decide on his own.
Nevertheless, I feel that it a shortcoming in his middos to not show up
was despicable.September 4, 2009 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #657480kapustaParticipant
By the looks of the way this thread is going, I vote it be closed now and not later.September 4, 2009 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #657481
Maybe the Rav has a policy of either going to all simchos or to none. Since it doesnt work out well for him to go to all, he chooses to go to none.September 4, 2009 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #657482JosephParticipant
Wow, feivel and squeak both hate disagreeing with me?! How much more flattered could I get?
ames: You’re almost on my level – where feivel disagrees with me only about once in two years:
(sorry, it was just too good to pass up!)September 4, 2009 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #657483
So if the rabbi will go to his own brother’s or close friend’s party, I think he should make the effort to show up, even if just for a few minutes, to the simchas of those who respect him so much.
i also think that is a good idea, but in your own words: “it’s your choice.” you dont know why he didnt go. YOU dont know upon what his decision was based. If you claim to repect a certain Rov, then i would hope you actually do respect him and its not just words.
Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tzl went to very few Simchas, even of his Talmidim. do YOU know why? I dont. I can surmise, but i dont know. But I DONT QUESTION HIS DECISION.September 4, 2009 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #657484
If you feel so close to the Rav that you will be hurt enough by his lack of attendance to blog your complaints about it, why wouldn’t you feel close enough to ask him to be mesader kiddushin? What hold do you have on him, and how close are you really, if by accepting your invitation he will only be playing second fiddle anyway? If the choice of siddur kiddushin is not yours (or if it’s a simcha that is not a wedding) then ask him if he will honor you by speaking at your simcha, or offer him a different kibbud in advance of the event.
The way to get your Rav to show up is to be mechabed him. If you just invite him to the party like any Joe Shmoe then he has as much right to decline as any Joe Shmoe.September 4, 2009 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #657485
Halevai all invitations to a Simcha were that the attendee would be honoring the ballei simcha with their attendance.
I was recently at a simcha along with 800 of the ballei simchas “closest friends”. I’m trying to figure out how I honored the baalei simcha with my attendance when they hardly had the time to acknowledge that I was even there.September 4, 2009 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #657486YW Moderator-80Member
the 26 dotSeptember 4, 2009 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #657487AnonymousInactive
LOLSeptember 4, 2009 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #657488
Thanks, 80! 😉September 4, 2009 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #657490JosephParticipant
Rabbi Avigdor Miller, tzl went to very few Simchas, even of his Talmidim. do YOU know why? I dont. I can surmise, but i dont know. But I DONT QUESTION HIS DECISION.
The reason Rav Avigdor Miller ZTV’L almost never attended chasanas (etc.) even for direct family, was because he felt it was bittul Torah (for himself.) Rav Miller never wasted a second and accounted for every moment of his time.September 4, 2009 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #657491
Dont we go to a simcha for the baal simcha? Are we only going for ourselves to be noticed? Are we defeating the real purpose here?September 4, 2009 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #657492
If it’s going to hurt you if the Rav misses it, you can surely tell him beforehand what you would like to honor him with if he attends. He might still say no, it is his right. But maybe that which you mentioned is in itself a slight to his kovod; the fact that you’ve invited other rabbonim who will effectively shunt this Rav to the side. Is he the Rav or is he your buddy?September 4, 2009 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #657493
joseph, thanks, i knew that. it fit in better the other way to make my pointSeptember 4, 2009 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #657494JoseMember
It is somewhat presumptious to assume that a Rav, who it seems was not playing a pivotal role such as mesader kidushin or the like or the like must show up at your simcha. SHowing up for five minutes does not mean just five minutes of his time. It means the time going and coming, there may prepearation time coming. There are a million other things that he is involved in. Did you offer to send a driver to wait for him? Did he say he was coming?
Is this the Rov that you ask your shailos to?
You said he was someone you had a connection with. You do not expect every other person you have had a connection with to come to your simcha nor do you probably even invite all such people to your simcha.
Do you go to every simcha you are invited to?
Why do you think that you have the right to demand of his valuable time?
There are rabbonim who do not go to simchas because otherwise they would not have any time at all to do what they need. Let alone any personal time.
It seems the one lacking midos is the one who is demanding the Rov to show.September 4, 2009 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #657495just meParticipant
I think that if a rav never goes to simchos, it isn’t bad medos because most likely he has a good reason. If a regular person answers that he cannot attend a particular simcha, I don’t think that is bad midos either. If a person says he is attending and then doesn’t, unless he has a very good excuse, it isn’t good midos.
People can’t attend every simcha and as many people pointed out, an invitation, even a personal oral invitation, is not an order.September 6, 2009 10:19 am at 10:19 am #657497onlyemesMember
It would be very simple for the Rov , when personally invited, to simply say, “Mazal Tov and much nachas, I don’t know if I will be able to attend, so please forgive me if you see I didn’t make it. Mazal tov and much nachas again.”
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