August 24, 2009 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #657939
I do not think that the idea of resource allocation is easy. However,
the alternative is indeed expecting others to bail them out. I like this
idea even less.
One of the things that distinguishes the Hareidi community is that they
look to their Rabbanim for leadership–not only in Torah, but in all matters.
Well, this is the time for such leadership. Resources are fewer, and demands
are not getting less. Some things have to be changed, lest the entire system
I am not Hareidi, and do not send my children to Hareidi schools. Nevertheless,
I would like to see those of my fellow Jews who do choose this way of life to
be able to continue to do so, and would not want the system to break down
I do fear that if any cuts are made, it will be at the elementary education
stage, or at the expense of girls’ education specifically. I persoanlly think
that this would be a disaster. For one thing, since the girls in many cases are expected towork while their husbands learn, cutting their education will inevitably lower their ability as wage-earners, and further deepen the Hareidi world into financial crisis.August 24, 2009 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #657940
GAW: re “There is no reason why someone who planned and has money is Chayiv to give to those who did not plan and are still expecting others to bail them out.”
Those who have discretionary funds in today’s economy, have it 50% due to hard work, and 50% due to Mazel (Yerusha, successful business ventures..). Many of those who don’t have discretionary funds “planned” just as carefully.
The needy institutions are the very same institutions that those who have discretionary funds, need for their own children an grandchildren. Will the schools open and only allow those who can afford to pay full tuition?August 24, 2009 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #657941
1: Agreed. But in order to gain, you have to try (or at least buy a lotto ticket:) I’m not talking about the Gvir who lost his job at Bear Stearns (which may not be someone who sends to BYOBP), who chances are their school is willing to overlook due to past charitable donations.
2: Perhaps the needy institutions should ask their students pay full tuition (or at least some sort of minimum tuition, as I stated earlier in the thread). If those who have extra funds want to support their own children, let them do so, but I (and many others) don’t feel (and am not halachicly) Mechuyav to help them when they are not willing to help themselves.August 24, 2009 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #657942
GAW: ” If those who have extra funds want to support their own children, let them do so, but I (and many others) don’t feel (and am not halachicly) Mechuyav to help them when they are not willing to help themselves. “
The bulk of the parent population of BYOBP, are hardworking individuals, not those whose “plan” is to rely on family members or govt. programs for support. Many people are jobless today, no matter how educated, qualified, or how hard they look for a job.August 24, 2009 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #657943
AZOI.IS: Based on what others have said earlier in the thread (I know nothing about the area), most of the parent body is not paying much, if any, tuition, even before this “crisis”. If they were able to pay full tuition, it would not be a crisis, as they would be able to get into other schools (assuming the situation in NYC is not similar to Lakewood; if so, I feel bad for those in BYOBP who do pay full tuition (and NYC in general)).
Hardworking does not equal a plan to pay tuition for children. As I said, a minimum tuition is in order here.August 24, 2009 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #657944Mezonos MavenMember
anon: Your story is far different than how it operates in Chasidish Yeshivos. The Yeshivos never deny entry to the Yeshiva — either to an existing student or a new applicant — due to any financial considerations. If you cannot afford to pay a dime in tuition, they will accept your child into the school in a heartbeat without batting an eyelash — tuition free. And if you later can no longer pay, your child will neither be threatened nor expelled.
artchill: With all due respect, that sounds like an excuse to avoid charitable giving. Someone coming up with excuses, will find others if that one is alleviated.
gavra: The bottom line fact remains throughout every period of history there have been many poor Jews, who through no fault of their own, cannot afford basic necessities (i.e. food, rent, etc.) let alone tuition. to believe otherwise, is to be victimized by Western secular beliefs in each man for himself and/or everyone can “make it”. Therefore it is incumbant on every Jew who can financially assist, to pony up the charity as much as possible. As a Jew, you should at least as bad for the BYOBP parents who cannot pay any or all tuition, as you do for those who do.August 24, 2009 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #657945
GAW: “most of the parent body is not paying much, if any, tuition, even before this “crisis”
That can’t be accurate. I know many people of my generation who went there and my female children went there and Rabbi Shapiro, the current administrator, is a Mentsch, but he doesnt let anyone get away with anything. You have to pay up, or else…It’s not a freebie school. I wonder where others got the wrong picture.
My feeling is that there are lots of people who regularly do work, and are currently out of work, who honestly can’t pay.August 24, 2009 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #657946
I understand the necessity of supporting yeshivos and bais yaakovs, but we need to come to the bottom line.
When i have a budget and then something unexpectedly comes up (emergencies, medical, car…)I still need to pay all of my expenses. So I need to cut from somewhere to pay back. BYOBP and other institutions should, especially in these tough economic times, cut back on expenses they dont need.
Parents should pay as much tuition as they can, but they cannot be expected to pay for other people’s children. Tzeddaka has no requirement on where to give it, just that “family before others, community before outsiders….” and there are many tzeddaka organizations they may want to help first.August 24, 2009 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #657947
MM: Let them not have their “extras” which they never had over the years, such as meat, chicken, shabbos clothes & heat (let alone vacations and weddings), and then we will talk. If they prioritized they would be able to pay more. They just don’t feel the need to pay as much as they could if they cut back. (and yes, my definition of “cut back” seems crazy to those who live now, but that’s the way it always was). Its still them expecting others to BAIL THEM OUT and they can do other things.
AZOI: In the school by us, there are a number of families that have been “written off” by the executive director as they used to pay full tuition, but the breadwinner lost their jobs. I would much rather help them (and they are local!) then another school. If that is the case for BYOBP as well, and not just bad finances and accepting additional non-payers (as others in the thread have said) then I feel bad for the school as well. I have a concrete idea earlier in the thread regarding how the school can stay open, they can implement that.August 25, 2009 12:00 am at 12:00 am #657948
I know someone who once worked for a school’s scholarship fund, helping to decide who really needs it or not. He looked at past tax records and saw that if the family took a major trip or vacation, bought a fancy car ect in the last year or two then they were not necessarily given a tuition break, as obviously they were able to pay for these other items, so why not tuition?August 25, 2009 1:26 am at 1:26 am #657949
g_a_w, I am actually quite shocked at what you said. How can you call Shabbos and clothes “EXTRAS”!?!? You really need to have compassion and ahava for your fellow jew. What if G-d took away your income and assets and left you desolate? Would you appreciate your fellow jew leaving you penniless on the street without the means to put food on your table for Shabbos, clothes on your children’s back, and the ability to afford to educate them??? You could lose it all in an instant; just like a flash. Should that happen YOU would appreciate the community bailing you out, paying your kids tuition, clothing, Shabbos food, and yes heat so your family wouldn’t freeze in the winter. And I would hope the executive director had the Jewish heart to waive your tuition bill.August 25, 2009 5:37 am at 5:37 am #657950
volvie- I think that GAW was trying to say that they should not be buying New and fancy clothes, red meat ect. Heat, on the other hand, should depend on what the weather is outside. They should not feel frozen, especially if its snowing outside ect. I have a real problem when people who get community assistance are able to live better than my family. There is a store, like many others, who have a tab for the poorer customers and does not force them to pay up. But many of them eat better than my family, who pays their bills and tuition.
I have a heart and try to give money to those who need it. I can’t give much, but I try. So dont say that we dont have a heart and compassion.August 26, 2009 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #657951
First and foremost, I want to apologize for saying something that made you so upset, that was not my intention. You were very harsh on the response, I imagine you are going through something like this now (and can no longer pay full tuition). If you are having problems with your schools due to you losing your (or your spouse’s) job, please let a mod know, perhaps someone here can help.
Second, (although heat may be somewhat extreme, though turning way down is not), what I stated (not having “meat, chicken, shabbos clothes & heat (let alone vacations and weddings)”) is what you are MECHUYAV to do in order to pay full tuition, Al Pi the Psak I got. I also believe if I was out of work (and would not be here) and have a tuition issue, I would homeschool (and that would be a question I would ask my Rav as well).
Where you live, it may be different (I have found “in town” is very different than where I live, which is partially why I am here, to learn) as it may be that no one is expected to pay full tuition and it is only a negotiating point, not a real request. You have to ask your own Rav to see what is Halachicly correct for you to do.
Third, I was not even talking about someone who lost their job or even attemped to earn, but someone who is living “Al Daas” that the community would support them.
B’HatzlachaAugust 26, 2009 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #657952
g_a_w, Thank you for the reply. No, I do not need such. But you’re previous comments were harsh towards the aniyam of klal yisroel. To insist that they freeze in the winter and do without Shabbos clothing in order to pay tuition is out of order and entirely wrong. Klal Yisroel has always been more sympathetic to its poor than that. We have always supported out poor on tuition matters, heating, food, etc.
Regarding someone living “al daas” to be supported, which I take to mean he is able to make a living but refuses to do so, I agree with you 100%.
BTW, if someone out of town loses their job (and their spouse brings in nowhere near enough) and cannot find another job through no fault of their own, who pays his 7 children’s $7,000 per year, per child, tuition? Do they throw these 7 kinderlach on the street? Do they forgo a yiddish chinuch and force them into public school?August 26, 2009 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #657953
Thank you for bringing the tone down, & noting that I may have been too harsh myself.
I may not like certain Halachos, but I still have to follow them. We (as Yirayim) do not practice “Emotional Halacha”. If halacha says go without shabbos clothes, eat Pasta or rice on Shabbos & set your thermostat to 14 or 15 degrees (C), or to work at Wal Mart or similar so that can pay more in tuition you should follow. (The going without heat to pay tuition is from the famous story with the Ridvaz, brought down in the Maggid books).
Those who have more may help, but there are many needs and to take away from those who do need (and sacrifice to subsidize the tuition of those who do not pay, in a situation similar to what havesomeseichel pointed out) is not right either. There are Halachos of Tzedoka that need to be followed as well.
And once again, we are not discussing those who had a job which would have paid the 50K in tuition in the first place (let alone other costs). However, I would expect them to forgo certain luxuries (even though I might be Chayiv to pay for them for him, he is Chayiv to give them up) in order to pay additional tuition funds (if he is a G-d fearing Jew, not someone who doesn’t care for their child’s Chinuch).August 26, 2009 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #657954
You seem to be knowledgeable about how far one is required to go in order to pay full tuition. I am not trying to pick a fight here, I am just curious about the p’sak you were given. Heat is one thing, but is one supposed to go without gas/electric? What if one is c’v in danger of losing their home? Who gets first, the school or the bank?
I was not stating my opinion here.August 26, 2009 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #657955
g_a_w, can you please cite a source in halacha that states that a Jew must do without a certain amount of heat and Shabbos clothing rather than accept tzeddaka? And that someone who can afford to give, shouldn’t give to such a person? My impression was klal yisroel was always more giving (and went “above and beyind” the letter — although in this case it is bare minimums we are discussing.)
You wrote: “we are not discussing those who had a job which would have paid the 50K in tuition in the first place”. I don’t see how this would be any different from someone who was poor all his life, and couldn’t afford it from the onset.
And since you are moida that you are chayiv to pay for them, that is the only concern of yours. Whether he is chayiv to give them up is between him and G-d. Between you and G-d, you are chayiv to assist.August 26, 2009 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #657956YW Moderator-72Participant
i didn’t read all the posts… so maybe this was said already, but I heard but have not confirmed that they are opening… anyone know the scoop?August 26, 2009 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #657957mepalMember
Yes. I’ve heard the same as well.August 26, 2009 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #657958
I already stated I got a Psak. You, as I also stated, may have a different Psak. ASK YOUR RAV! There is the Din of “Asay Shabbatcha Chol V’al Yitztarech Lebriyos”, but I do not ask my Rav to explain his Psakim to me.
As far as the last point, it is a good one, but there is no reason to apply it to tuition costs (as it’s a Chov vs. a personal use, which then and only then are you allowed to pay for extras IF they are used to it. However, actual Tzedaka still comes before extras, which brings me to the final point..).
And once more, if people had infinite sums to use, then these would be paid as well (and I would not be here or working). It’s when there are finite funds then Halacha comes into play; And those who follow halacha (what you might call “frum people”) get before those who don’t (in general). This is not so simple (who decides what Avairos make someone not “Frum”), but for a different thread.August 26, 2009 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #657959
volvie- there is a difference if the family that cannot pay for tuition is eating steak, brisket ect for shabbos every week and if they are eating small portions of chicken ect. I have no problem supporting people who are not eating luxuries… Yes, meat is a luxury. If I pay for my tuition costs and cannot pay for meat all the time, then there is a problem with someone I support having meat on a consistent basis.
Heat- I dont think anyone here is saying that they must freeze. But do they have to set the heat at 75/80 degrees when it is 20 outside? it is ok to put on a sweater inside your house.
Can you please explain why I should pay for someone to have a higher standard of living than I do (and i cannot afford to put them at this place)? Halacha I learned once: You should eat less than you are worth, dress what you are worth and provide for your wife and kids more than you are worth. No one sees what is at your table and you dont want people to think that you are living on a different status than you really are. Re: wife and kids, I think that this is up to a point where you do not need to be supported by others to do it.August 26, 2009 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #657960tzippiMember
To GAW: as inspiring as the Ridvaz story is (and they were going to dismantle the oven altogether) try that trick in the USA and as the kids get sick, social services may come into the picture.August 26, 2009 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #657961
100% agreed. You also have to worry about your pipes freezing, which will cost you even more to repair. Turning the heat down (as to what extent, see end) won’t hurt, but as always, ASK YOUR RAV.August 26, 2009 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #657962squeakParticipant
Nah, you don’t have to turn on the heat to keep your pipes from freezing. Just let the water run in the sink. Much cheaper.August 26, 2009 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #657963
squeak 🙂 Off topic but…
That only helps for the sink pipes. Other pipes can freeze especially if they are on an outer wall.August 26, 2009 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #657964Why Do I Even BotherMember
After all this discussion, noone seems to have any answer for this terrible crisis. Yes, finally something that actually deserves the word crisis. What can we do to fix this problem? Is noone taking this seriously?? I recently spoke to someone at the school and I was told that so far noone really has come forward to help out… What will be?August 26, 2009 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #657965
Why Do I Even Bother (or anyone else:)
If it really would close what would happen? It seems to me that the girls would go elsewhere (there are plenty of schools in NYC, even Boro Park, and schools would open to accept the additional demand (as per laws of supply & demand)), the teachers that are not being paid would have a chance to get a paying job?
Not to be silly, (just ignorant:) but I believe it is a question that needs to be asked. Why is it so bad if the school does fail?
Lo Habayshan Lomed.
Thank you.August 26, 2009 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #657966
gavra, did you notice my post a little higher on the page? If you (or anyone) could answer it, I would appreciate it.August 26, 2009 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #657967
Very good point, sorry. I would ask your own Shaila, as the context which the statement was made (in a “more public” setting) did not attempt to cover those bases. I do know of those who moved to smaller homes or apartments (don’t remember which, part of a speech) to pay more in tuition, but that may be “Lifnim” (or the school would not give them a break as they thought others needed it more, who knows). Also as I stated before, if the school does not expect anyone to pay full tuition, then it may not even a cost point.
I am just as interested as you as per the answer (my guess is home, but as I did not ask and did not hear, so who knows), and would love some help here as well.
Thank you to…
*kapusta*August 26, 2009 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #657968
gavra, I hope I will never need to ask my own shaila. Thank you for the reply.
Anyone else out there have the answer?August 26, 2009 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #657969
why do I even bother– I have listed some ways for the schools to be able to save themselves. Some of these may only work for schools that are feeling the crunch, rather than those who have failed. There are two ways to save a failing institution:
1. Increase revenue- hard to do in this economy. If a donor had the money to donate, wouldn’t he or she have already given it? Many people cannot take on a new institution to support during such a difficult financial time.
2. Cut costs- By cutting the costs, it allows the same amount of income to be spread so everyone gets paid. Can be done in a few ways:
a. Cut out wasteful spending. No need for major trips or activities. Minimize them- dont take as fancy as a trip this year, or take less of them.
b. Stop with the weekly booklets the schools send home. Make one for the month that has all the pictures and extras in it. Give each child one small packet of their class’s dvar torah, homework (Aleph Beis sheets) and “what we did in Morah Shprintzy’s class this week”. No need to give each kid one that is for the entire section (early childhood ect). Give the Pre-1a class theirs’, and the Gan their’s.
c. You dont need beautiful bulletin boards and to change them every month. Kids dont really notice them that much. I grew up without huge colored displays and so did many other people and we came out ok. laminate the signs and save them year to year!
d. cut excess staff. If they arent doing anything- dont hire them! I know there are a lot of people who need jobs, but if you have to split the pay among more staff, each one gets less. If you cant pay for 3 secretaries, only have 2. The last one will have to find a new job. It sounds callous but to save the school, if you dont need the costs- cut them!August 27, 2009 3:09 am at 3:09 am #657970
I doubt the control of use of paper would ease the financial situation in any appreciable way. I think it’s more likely the many Administration people making close to 100,000 a year that might be somewhat problematic, and something tells me there might be some who the school might survive without and replace with volunteers. I doubt they can cut teachers, because everyone knows the Bklyn classrooms are past capacity.August 27, 2009 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #657971Why Do I Even BotherMember
Gavra At Work, I feel bad for your children… This school has over 2000 children ka”h and hundreds of staff. You really think everyone will just be absorbed into the other schools?! What if you send your child to this particular school because that is how you want your child brought up? Etc. Etc.August 27, 2009 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #657972
I do not think that tis is a problem that is correctable with the school system.
Yes, cutbacks are needed, and trimming pennies saves dollars. However, if I understand correctly, the financial problems run deeper than that.
I previously suggested that this is a problem for the Hareidi community at large; they need to determine their priorities. If a limited amount of money is available, people must think about where they wish to allocate. In one of the rplies, I was told “2 Jews, 3 opinions”–i.e. that it’s not gonna happen. I tend to agee with that poster—but that leads me to my next question: why not?
The thing that distinguishes the Hareidi world from, say, Modern Orthodoxy, is the idea of “Daas Torah”–the willingness to obey the Gdolim on each and every question.
In that case, why do these Gdolim not lead? why do they not say that elemetary education is more important than kollel–(or vice versa, if that is their opinion)? why do they not offer their counsel on how to solve the crisis in their own community?
We hear many voices from the Hareidi leadership giving advice to other portions of the Jewish community; whether it is about chilonim driving on Shabbat (assur–big surprise there) girls serving in the IDF (please see above). People in these other communities are hardly likely to pasken (in cas of MO) or listen (in case of chilonim) to Hareidi Rabbannim with different hashkafot from their own. Yet the Hareidi Rabbanim continue to issue proclamations about the lifestyles of other communities.
Why do they not address these crises in their own communities? I am not posting this to be critical of the Hareidi Rabbanim–I am seriously wondering why thye do nto address this and other issues, before their system collapses. People are in such financial trouble that they are faced with the choice of religious schools for their children versus other critical Jewish values. And let’s face it–the closing of a Bet Yaakov will not affect anyone in the MO or chiloni world–we do not send our children there. (However, our hearts go out to our Hareidi brothers and sisters who are faced with these difficult problems.) This affects the Hareidi world. One thing that the Hareidi world has is leadership. In my opinion, leadership comes from above-but I have not seen anything at all in this case.
I understand the difficulties here. Nobody wants to cut back on any educational services. However, the system is stressed to its breaking point, and should be fixed, however painfully, before it collapses completely.August 27, 2009 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #657973
Why Do I Even Bother:
I guess I just feel you are “lucky” to have so many choices.
You did not answer the question. Just because it is your own “flavor” of chinuch does not mean the school deserves to be saved. What would be so bad if the school closed?
And yes, I do believe they will be absorbed into other schools. The other schools need the money too, and for minimal additional fixed costs (and if they want to add to the same class, small variable costs) they can add additional revenue.
Not to be mean, but why don’t you think economics (running the school like a business) will cause the girls to be absorbed?
AZOI: Now I really don’t understand. If the schools are beyond capacity, why are they not making it?August 27, 2009 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #657974tzippiMember
Starwolf, not all MO people eschew daas Torah and value autonomy uber alles. There are MO people who DO ask their rabbis for psak and eitzos, and who take their leadership seriously. Odd that I seem to know of them and you don’t.August 27, 2009 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #657975
I am afraid that I was not clear in my post.
Of course (we) MO people ask our Rabbanim shailot.
There a 2 major differences, as far as I understand:
First of all, they will probably not be the same Rabbanim;
people tend to pick a Rav whose Hashkafa is fitting for them.
Secondly, most MO people that I know tend not to ask shailot
in matters not directly related to Halacha. Of course, there ia a wide
range of hashkafot in the MO world, just as in the Hareidi world.
The point that I was making is, since many Hareidim accept the opinions
of their Gdolim in all matters, this provides a real opportunity
for the Gdolim to solve this (and perhaps other) problems that are critical
to the Hareidi world.August 27, 2009 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #657976
GAW: “Now I really don’t understand. If the schools are beyond capacity, why are they not making it? “
1. They built a new building based on huge pledges of a few remaining (see below) very wealthy people in the community, who were unable to come through with the money. Frankly I’m not sure why they don’t sell this new building, which is prime prime property.
2. Being that Boro Park became overwhelmingly Chassidish, most of the wealthy people living in BP are Chassidish, and don’t need BYOBP. Many of the wealthy previous benefactors, who picked up and moved out of the area when it bcame very Chassidish, are now financing other schools in their new areas.
3. I’m sure they have a small percentage of people who have never paid tuition, and the wealthy people picked up the tab by paying more tuition, and these people are no longer able to.
4. I think there are probably too many very high earning administration people.August 27, 2009 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #657977
I have no idea of what a Jewish school administrator makes in the US,
although the few that I have known do not live a luxurious lifestyle.
I suppose that many here would consider this a crass question–what is
the range of salaries for teachers and administrators in Jewish schools?
By the way, let us keep in mind that these teachers and administrators have
the same financial problems as the rest of us–how to fincance their children’s
tuition, etc.August 27, 2009 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #657978mazal77Participant
So what is the solution?? School is starting shortly. Other schools are already busting out the seams. If BYOBP does close, it will be extremely difficult for other yeshivas to absorb the thousands of girls into their schools. People are having a hard time making ends meet. People have been already cutting back on their expenses. Many did not even send children to camp, because they could not afford it. Simchas have been scaled back. To be able to afford the yeshiva tution for a few children, you need a six figure income,even while living modestly.
Hashem gave a few people wealth to be the ones to share and support others. I am not saying that the poor should not work and try their best to be able to pay something, but it is very hard to pay tution even when living according to modest means means. There are more poor then rich. While the wealthy have the choice to spend how they wish, they have a great responiblity on their shoulders. Do they need to drive a Lexus, rather then a Toyota?? Do they have to shop in Neiman Marcus rather then Daffy’s? Do they need 4 homes? One in the city, one in the country, one in Florida, and one in Israel?? Do you need to go out for dinner a few times a week?? (sorry any restaurant workers, but eating out is very expensive and is a luxury) Do you need manicures and pedicures on weekly basis? Maybe all those luxury expense dollars that people spend on were meant to be put into the yeshivahs. Unfortunately, most of the yeshivahs are in the red.August 27, 2009 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #657979
Thank you. It seems (from what you say) their clientele moved out and there is no demand for that school. It should close & sell the building to a chassidish school, and move elsewhere (perhaps Lakewood?).
I still don’t understand (may just be me) how this fits with what others (Why Do I Even Bother) tell me that there are 2K students. You would think that even at 5K a year average, that’s TEN MILLION dollars, and should cover a girls school even with a mortgage & staff (1/10 ratio (including janitors, office staff, part time, which is still way too much) = 200 staff @ 25K average = 5 Million).
What is the going rate for staff (half day, out of Sem) at a girls school in Brooklyn?August 27, 2009 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #657980
Good point (besides the cost its the showiness which is bad in Galus), but its worse for those who actually do pay full tuition and drive a Yugo, and see those paying only partial driving a Leased Toyota.
A better (and more practical) idea is for everyone to cut back so that YOU can pay YOUR OWN school more, even if you don’t make (or have the education to make, but that’s for a different thread) enough to pay full tuition for your own children.
The yeshivas will make way more if every parent pays an additional 1K than they will make going after donors in these tough times.August 27, 2009 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #657981
If the school moved, it would lave the remaining non-Chassidic students with no school, and most can’t afford to move. If they could have afforded moving they would have moved already.
Teachers were always paid peanuts (if they’re lucky they got min wage). Many of my daughters’ friends taught there. Until the Shidduch crisis and more recently the economic situation, forced girls to get higher degrees (Accounting, Speech, OT, PT….), it was considered statusy to be teaching there. It was rumored at one time, that some wealthy parents paid the school, to hire their daughters.
Tuitions are way lower than the norm for schools across America, because family size is larger in Brooklyn… I think the average is quite a bit under 400 a month, with many unable to pay that at the present time.August 27, 2009 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #657982
I thought homes were more expensive in Boro Park. Perhaps they would move to somewhere further out, thereby lowering their costs?
A similar concept exists im Meah Shearim, where the housing is expensive and the people are less wealthy, and they are moving out to the newer charaidi communities (or at least their children are).
If tuition is so low (avg 2K) then I understand why the school is not making it. Thank you. The new questions are:
1: Why does this school attract low income parents (perhaps something to do with costs to move?), and how can it get current parents to pay more (especially being that they seeem to have “no” alternative). Once again, perhaps a minimum tuition is in order here?
2: Being that Flatbush is so close to Boro Park (10 min according to Google from 13th & New Utrecht to BLOPPY? (thats what came up when I searched for Prospect Park (what sort of name is that?)) why can’t these parents send to Flatbush schools?
Once again please excuse my ignorance.August 27, 2009 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #657983JosephParticipant
gavra, How did you cheshbon $2k/year tuition from $400/month? How much are parents in your area paying tuition? What do poor parents from your area do?August 27, 2009 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #657984
Joseph: Is it more? You tell me.
Mepal: “A parent sending their childrent to BYOB wouldn’t even consider PPY”.
Why not?August 27, 2009 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #657985mepalMember
GAW, I’m only following this thread loosely, but since you asked, the going pay rate for teachers out of sem is 6K a year. They haven’t been paid for the last five months, though.
As far as sending to PPY, the tuition there is WAY higher and the crowd is VERY different. A parent sending their childrent to BYOB wouldn’t even consider PPY. There are other schools, but they are limited with the amount of new students they accept every year. It would be a tragedy of BYOB was forced to shut (although the last I’ve heard, they’re still opening for the coming school year).August 27, 2009 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #657986
1-“I thought homes were more expensive in Boro Park. Perhaps they would move to somewhere further out, thereby lowering their costs?”
The homes are expensive but I suspect that those who are unable to pay tuition are predominantly renters rather than owners, helped by section 8, etc.
“A similar concept exists im Meah Shearim, where the housing is expensive and the people are less wealthy, and they are moving out to the newer charaidi communities (or at least their children are)”.
Almost anything nearby, with Minyanim, schools and Mikvos in the vicinity, is similarly expensive.
“If tuition is so low (avg 2K) then I understand why the school is not making it. Thank you. The new questions are:
1: Why does this school attract low income parents (perhaps something to do with costs to move?), and how can it get current parents to pay more (especially being that they seeem to have “no” alternative). Once again, perhaps a minimum tuition is in order here?”
The school is located in an area where parents were by and large not encouraged to seek higher education.
“2: Being that Flatbush is so close to Boro Park (10 min according to Google from 13th & New Utrecht to BLOPPY? (thats what came up when I searched for Prospect Park (what sort of name is that?)) why can’t these parents send to Flatbush schools?”
You think BLOPPY and other nearby schools can afford to admit hundreds of low/non paying parents?August 27, 2009 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #657987JosephParticipant
gavra, My impression in the NY area, litvish tuition is about $500/month for parents who can afford that, and somewhere between $250/month (i.e. Kollel) to $450/month for parents who cannot afford the list price. And there are often volume discounts for multiple children in a family. The Chasidish Yeshivas seem to charge about $100/month less than this. (These are my impressions.)
My question to you was how does $400/month = $2k/year? $400/month = $4k/year (for 10 month; $4800 if it is paid over 12 months.)
How much, about, is tuition out of town? And how do the poor cope with it?August 27, 2009 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #657989Feif UnParticipant
Out of town schools have much higher tuition. In NJ, I can tell you that YNJ charges something in the area of $13,000 per year for elementary school.
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