September 2, 2009 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #658193anon for thisParticipant
artchill, I understand that vouchers are not likely to happen in any of the Jewish communities in NY or NJ anytime soon. I just wanted an explanation of how WI, a state with a Blaine Amendment, could provide vouchers without violating its constitution. So you are saying that the federal government can provide voucher funds & allow parents to override the state constitution if schools in a specific area are very poor, and that this happened in Wisconsin, Indiana, and Ohio?September 2, 2009 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #658194
According to the New York State Unified Court System website (an official NYS Court site), The Constitutional Convention of 1967 was submitted to the voters as entire package, rather than allowing voters to vote on individual iterms proposed to change. In other words, voters could “take it or leave it”. If they had approved it, amongst other things, they would have in addition to any changes to the Blaine Amendment:
* provided for the gradual state takeover of the statewide court system
* added authority for cooperative financing among multiple local governments
* required the gradual transfer to the state of the administration and cost of local welfare programs; and allowed the legislature to incur debt without a voter referendum
In other words, this was far more than just the Blaine Amendment. And voters did not like the package deal.September 6, 2009 3:54 am at 3:54 am #658195Pashuteh YidMember
What yeshivos need to teach their children is that making a parnasa is the most ruchnius thing there is. One uses a brain that Hashem gave him, his eyes and his hands and his legs and has a place to go where he can use these, and does 8 hours of work, using the raw materials Hashem placed on earth, and creates some product or value, and presto, miraculously bread comes down min hashamayim. It is a peleh when you think about it. The biggest nes that there is, that Hashem has created a world that can sustain all creatures with what he put into it. For example, all computer chips are made from silicon. What a miracle that this is basically sand, found everywhere. Millions of people in the computer industry make a living from sand.
Instead of denigrating work, we should teach how much of a ruchnius experience it is and how it creates such simcha when one can bring home a sufficient paycheck. We rob our students of this, and hurt them for life by feeding them propaganda that work and secular studies are treif.
Incidentally In Orach Chaim 306, it says explicitly that one is permitted to arrange a teacher to teach his son a trade even on Shabbos, since it is considered cheftzei shamayim. (Chafatzecha asurim, cheftzei shamayim mutarim.) The Mishna Berurah says that because without a trade, one will turn to theft (based on well-known gemara).
How in the world did the yeshivishe velt manage to invent that a mefurash halacha no longer applies?September 6, 2009 4:19 am at 4:19 am #658196
How in the world did the modernishe velt manage to invent a blatant sheker about the yeshivishe velt?September 6, 2009 4:57 am at 4:57 am #658197
charlie- I have some issues with your statement that chinuch needs to be prioritized over kiruv and kollel. Yes, over kollel, but kiruv needs to be addressed as well. Those iare automatic money-losers and will remain in debt constantly as they cant charge tution or the parents wont send their kids there. What about all those other deserving organizations out there that can’t support themselves but are very necessary? bikur cholim, chai lifeline, schools and organizations for special needs students and adults ect. How can we say that they dont deserve a good deal of our funding?
Also, by stating that any one organization or type is deserving more than others will cause subsequently an increase in the wastefulness and misuse of money as these institutions wont necessarily be as careful in allocating funds. They will realize that they will get most of our funds as “they are the priority”. Its a cycle- state that one thing is priority or will have unlimited funding and they will find a use for the new money. Every cent. Then they will eventually run out of money, will cut back and be about to close and then “priority” status is granted again.September 6, 2009 7:01 am at 7:01 am #658198
hss: How do you come to the conclusion of Kollel – no, Kiruv – yes?September 6, 2009 9:16 am at 9:16 am #658199lesschumrasParticipant
Charlie Hall said: The greatest obstacle to it, by far, are the teacher’s unions. “
This is incorrect;A better method than union-bashing would be to get the unions to join us! Most Catholic schools in NY and NJ are unionized;
The biggest obstacle is the one union you didn’t mention, the United Federation of Teachers, If students are allowed financially to leave public schools, their members lose jobs.
Joseph:How in the world did the modernishe velt manage to invent a blatant sheker about the yeshivishe velt? We’ve learned from youSeptember 6, 2009 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #658200SJSinNYCMember
Joseph, its an easy conclusion.
Kiruv – bring more Jews to be frum
Kollel – frum Jews who will not stop being frum because they aren’t in kollel
The men in kollel may have less time to learn, but I would guarantee that any rel kollel guy would still keep on learning. I would rather bring more Jews back to Judaism and let the kollel guy earn some money.September 6, 2009 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #658201Pashuteh YidMember
Joseph, you know as well as I that the Yeshivishe velt discourages boys from working and wants them to stay in learning, preferably.
You also know that they denigrate secular studies, and many high schools in EY don’t offer any at all. That includes all the mainstream Chareidi yeshivos ketanos. In the USA, it is sometimes as little as 90 minutes a day, or even less in frummer yeshivas. Very rarely do they have proper labs and advanced courses beyond the minimum regents standards (which have been extremely watered down last few years).
You also know that for many years they were opposed to college, even the frum ones.
You know I did not say any sheker.September 6, 2009 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #658202
SJS – Torah learning in being “frum”; so reducing Torah learning is being less frum. So who is to say kiruv over kollel?September 6, 2009 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #658203
“What yeshivos need to teach their children is that making a parnasa is the most ruchnius thing there is”.
Agreed!!!!! Kollel is wonderful, except for the fact that way too high a percentage of those in Kollel, are learning less per week, quantitatively and qualitatively, than many Ehrlich Kovea Itim people. And MANY of those who need help with tuition are of the first category.September 6, 2009 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #658204SJSinNYCMember
Joseph, no you are wrong. Applying Torah 100% of the time is the ikkur. If you just sit and learn and don’t really apply, your Torah is worthless.
A kollel guy working still has the opportunity to apply his Torah and just do different mitzvot at that point, rather than learning.
A non-religious Jew doesn’t have the opportunity to do many mitzvot.September 6, 2009 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #658205
Joseph- I can say that because innocent children who haven’t received a proper education have an extremely hard time getting one. They can’t work to pay for their own tuition, can’t exactly tell their parents to pay for it for them or to send them. They have little choice in the matter…
Kollel, on the other hand, is made up of older, married men who could have the ability to pay for their own learning. They are not required by halacha to sit there every single day if it is at the expense of their own children. Just by working (on the side or full time) does not make them automatically “less frum”. Becoming less frum is a choice and it is not necessarily true in most cases. Men can be kovei eitim and still stay as frum or grow to become “frummer”. Working and being less frum or Learning and being more frum are not proportional in any way. If working=being less frum then how could you take our money? Those with the money to pay for other people’s tuition are working… so you would have “non-frum” money paying for you to learn Torah? isn’t that a little counter-intuitive? How do you know that since “we arent frum” that our money isnt through illicit means?
I would rather pay for a non-frum child to become frum than pay for a guy who is frum to continue being frum…September 6, 2009 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #658206
SJS – Why are you comparing apples to oranges? Where did I mention someone who is not applying Torah. It is someone learning and applying Torah vs. someone not learning Torah but applying it (at least as best he knows how.)September 6, 2009 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #658207jewishsoulMember
Joseph, someone who is part of the workforce and is exposed to so many different nisyonos every day in countless areas, and stays on the same level of yiras shamayim he started out with and is still kovea itim, is accomplishing more than a guy who learns in kollel all day and is not tested by his environment. That might be what SJS means by “applying Torah”.September 6, 2009 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #658208
is accomplishing more than a guy who learns in kollel all day and is not tested by his environment.
Says who?September 6, 2009 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #658209jewishsoulMember
Accomplishing in terms of personal growth. When you are faced with a test, and pass it, you are on a higher madreiga than had you not been faced with the test at all. Think Yosef in Mitrayim.September 6, 2009 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #658210
hss: IOW you are basing it upon your own personal feelings.September 6, 2009 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #658211
Joseph- what does IOW mean, and what does your message to me mean?
“hss: IOW you are basing it upon your own personal feelings.”September 6, 2009 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #658212
IOW = in other words.September 6, 2009 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #658213
Joseph, the Slabodka-Kovna kollel in Europe consisted of 5 years of learning, after which the members left to perform klei kodesh. There was no “lifetime support”. Kollel learning is a great mitzvah. but it is not the priority in tyerms of funds that an elementary school is. Rabbi Yehoshua ben Gamla didn’t make a takanah to have kollels in every city. Lulav and esrog is a big mitzvah too. But stealing someone’s esrog to perform a mitzvah is an aveirah. Pressuring someone to give up money they don’t have so you can buy a mehudar esrog isn’t a kitzvah. Pressuring people to give up money they don’t have so you can learn isn’t a mitzvah either. I’m all for kollel learning, but not on someone else’s cheshbon. Let the gevirim sponsor whatever kollel yungeleit they can afford.
During the National Service for Women controversy, the chazon Ish expressed the opinion that it was worth trading all the yeshiva support to prevent the bill from getting passed. The Chazon Ish knew how vital yeshivos were to the continuation of klal Yisroel. But he also knew how to prioritize. Right now, there’s not enough money for everyone. The community has to prioritize. Health care and education costs have skyrocketed over the last decade. It’s not fair to stay in kollel on the backs of people who don’t want to pay for it. That’s an eveirah, not a mitzvah. Perhaps we can use the “Slabodka” rules- after 5 years, don’t expect to be subsidized.September 6, 2009 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #658214
Jothar, I’m glad to hear how it worked in Slabodka. I’m sure it worked very well there.September 6, 2009 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #658215
Joseph- thank you for explaining what IOW means. Now, can you please explain how your statement fits mine??September 7, 2009 1:30 am at 1:30 am #658216
Joseph, it did. There were no kollels historically until the Kovna and Slabodka kollels which later merged. So they should form the basis of our understanding of kollels. The gemara does say that yaffa talmud torah im derech eretz worked out better for most people than toraso umnaso. Or is that gemara irrleevant?
The modern kollel system is a result of the great financial bounty enjoyed by America and the rest of the world since World War II. With that bounty destroyed by the latest recession, reprioritization is in order.September 7, 2009 2:11 am at 2:11 am #658217
The gemara does say that yaffa talmud torah im derech eretz worked out better for most people than toraso umnaso.
Even in America, at no point were “most people” engaged in Toraso Umnaso. Any way you count “most people”. So I’m not sure what your taaina is.September 7, 2009 2:35 am at 2:35 am #658218
Joseph, you misconstyrued my point. My point was that the gemara recorded a study of those who actively tried Torah im derech eretz vs. those who tried toraso umnaso. The gemara records that toraso umnaso was a failure for most people. It has nothing to do with America.
there are those who view anyone learning in yeshiva as an unproductive benchwarmer and never understand the idea of talmud torah keneged kulam and adam le’amal yulad meaning learning. That’s not what this is about. Kolel is a special type of learning where one is able to learn after marriage for a number of years with his bills being paid for by his wife, parents and in-laws. The realities of olam hazeh (as caused by the sin of Adam) mean that the bill for olam hazeh has to be paid, in some form or another. If people don’t have the means to support a kollel man, then the kolel man is not doing a mitzvah by demanding it. There are plenty of rich baalei battim who are still able to support their sons-in law in comfort despite these harsh economic realities. Good for them. Torah has what to flourish with. I’m not sure part of this you’re disagreeing with, so please clarify what I’m saying that’s wrong.September 7, 2009 2:50 am at 2:50 am #658219
Jothar: “With that bounty destroyed by the latest recession, reprioritization is in order.”
What is the position of Gedolim and Roshei Yeshiva on exactly this question. If someone were to ask them how much of every Tzedaka dollar should be spent on Kollels and how much towards financially weak Chinuch institutions, I wonder what they’d answer.
Unfortunately doubled-up classes causing increased Haskhafic and other issues, it might leave less students interested in further Kollel learning.September 7, 2009 2:58 am at 2:58 am #658220
Jothar, We both seem to agree that Toraso Umnaso is the correct path for a non-majority of our people. And that is in fact what we have today. So what exactly is the problem you seem to see? (After all, you are making an issue of this.) Unless I am mistakenly reading that you have an issue with this, and in fact there is no disagreement. Please clarify.September 7, 2009 3:42 am at 3:42 am #658221
The issue is Torasu umnaso on someone else’s cheshbon, when the other is unwilling or unable to support the party of the first part without significant financial hardship. The original kollels were funded by donations from willing participants. Forcing people to pay exhorbitant tuitions and go into debt to sponsor kollel kids is not exactly derech Yisroel Saba.September 7, 2009 3:55 am at 3:55 am #658222
The original kollels were funded by donations from willing participants.
Not necessarily. Oft-times the Jewish community had the authority, and utilized it, to impose a taxation upon its members which was utilized to support its Torah scholars.September 7, 2009 4:28 am at 4:28 am #658223
“Forcing people to pay exhorbitant tuitions and go into debt to sponsor kollel kids is not exactly derech Yisroel Saba. “
Most Kollel fathers, are unable to find decent employment EVER, and especially in these harsh economic times, even if they want to!!!, because of them being unprepared for work in a secular environment, not because of unwillingness to work. It’s Chinuch causing Chinuch’s problems. A not so merry-go-round.September 7, 2009 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #658224tzippiMember
Five years in kollel now is considered “short term”. You don’t have to go back to Europe; most of the big name forty and fifty somethings learned for five years full time, then found positions. Now kids are coming back from Israel and going to mini kollelim which is lovely, but I worry about this new mindset. It is dependent on serious support from parents and diverting from other causes.September 7, 2009 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #658225
Joseph, The community used its authority as appropriate to support the poor and its chachamim. However, if you notice,there were no kollels until the late 1800’s despite that authority. From Wikipedia:
Until 1877, yeshivas only subsidized students until they got married (at an early age). When the Kollel was established, Rabbi Salanter was attacked by many, precisely for this point. He instituted the practice of paying a small salary to married students to continue their advanced Talmudical studies. He defended this innovation because he said that he was training leaders. His argument was that the need for well-trained communal leaders mandated this drastic action. The justification was that these individuals would eventually serve the community, and it was not that because they sat and learned that they should be supported.
Never was an undue burden placed upon the community. Kollels were limited, designed to produce chachamim of the highest caliber who could then serve in klei kodesh, infused with the chochmas hatorah.
Until a few years ago, America was blessed with an overabundance of wealth. People of all backgrounds and education levels were able to generate wealth at will through various investments, real estate, etc. Many gevirim who bankrolled yeshivas and kolels had minimal secular education. People just spent money like water and tossed it around. So why not have a large cadre of kollel yungeleit learning forever? It was just money. The kollel community grew by leaps and bounds, but it was easily paid for.
The American financial climate took a severe turn for the worse in the last 3 years. Health care and education costs skyrocketed while pay remained the same. Housing prices plummeted, leaving many without the extra cash needed, and without the ability to refinance when the option ARM re-adjusted. The easy money from real estate and finance was gone. Large numbers of gevirim and even well-to-do baalei battim just disappeared.
So now the middle-class and lower middle class are expected to pay exorbitant tuitions to cover kollel kids. And those same families are expected to support children in kollel for many years. This cannot continue. We must go back to kollel as it was implemented by the gedolim of Europe (Rav Yisroel Salanter, Rave Itzele Peterburger, etc). Kollel is 4 or 5 years, after which one is expected to work in klei kodesh or another line of parnassah.
EDITEDSeptember 7, 2009 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #658226
“Undue” burden is a relative term. (And on a side note, Wikipedia is neither authoritative nor necessarily accurate.)September 7, 2009 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #658227
Jothar: “We must go back to kollel as it was implemented by the gedolim of Europe (Rav Yisroel Salanter, Rave Itzele Peterburger, etc). Kollel is 4 or 5 years, after which one is expected to work in klei kodesh or another line of parnassah.”
Not easily accomplished if there is a huge demand and lesser supply of Chinuch/Klei Kodesh jobs, and other lines of Parnasah are out of reach bec of lack of secular eucation.
Not so merry-go-round.September 7, 2009 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #658228starwolfMember
It seems to me that another major change over time was that, at one time, one could find a reasonable parnasa with a minimal level of secular education. You did not need a University education to have a good job. Of course, this became less true with the passage of time.
As I understand it, many Roshei Yeshivot were against higher (secular) education. While I imagine that this also changed with the times (since it was recognized that education is necessary for a good job), how quickly did that change take place? Do the large Hareidi Yeshivot still discourage University education?
Of course, I know that there is large variablity in hashkafot, but if folks here have personal knowledge, please pass it along.September 7, 2009 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #658229
You can still find a reasonable parnasa without a college education.September 7, 2009 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #658230
Joseph, any ideas?September 7, 2009 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #658231
Non-retail sales manager, Real estate broker, Sales Rep, Dental hygienist, Radiation therapist, insurance fraud investigator, Lead carpenter, Chemical supervisor, credit/collection supervisor, Reimbursement recovery specialist Funeral director, Operations manager.
Need any more ideas?September 7, 2009 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #658232
WHAT? Are you sure about those? Fine, funeral director, but Dental hygienist? Radiation therapist? Chemical Supervisor? Maybe years ago… And anyways, anyone applying for such jobs with degrees would get it much faster, unless the employer is looking to pay someone less and get less quality service from the prospective employee.September 7, 2009 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #658233
No college degree required for any of the ones I listed. There are many others as well in that category. And they provide a reasonable parnasa.September 7, 2009 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #658234
So maybe I become a funeral director after all. Listen, they’re never out of business and you claim I can do it without a degree.September 7, 2009 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #658235
What do Microsoft founder Bill Gates, Oracle CEO Larry Ellison and entertainment mogul David Geffen have in common? Huge bank accounts and no student loans. These industry leaders are some of the most successful people in business and none of them has a college degree.
Here are 25 of the top-paying jobs that don’t require a four-year degree and their average salaries, based on data from the BLS and CBSalary.com.
1. Air traffic controller: $102,030
2. Funeral director: $79,517
3. Operations manager: $77,839
4. Industrial production manager: $73,000
5. Transportation manager: $72,662
6. Storage and distribution manager: $69,898
7. Computer technical support specialist: $67,689
8. Gaming manager: $64,880
9. First-line supervisor/manager of police and detective: $64,430
10. Nuclear power reactor operator: $64,090
11. Computer specialist: $59,480
12. First-line, non-retail supervisors/manager: $59,300
13. Nuclear technician: $59,200
14. First-line supervisor/manager of fire fighting and prevention worker: $58,920
15. Real estate broker: $58,720
16. Elevator installer and repairer: $58,710
17. Sales representative, wholesale and manufacturing, technical and scientific products: $58,580
18. Dental hygienist: $59,790
19. Radiation therapist: $57,700
20. Nuclear medicine technologist: $56,450
21. Power plant distributor and dispatcher: $57,330
22. Fashion designer: $55,840
23. Ship engineer: $54,950
24. Detective and criminal investigator: $53,990
25. Commercial pilot: $53,870
For some of these occupations, the highest earners in the field make a significantly higher amount than the national average. For example, the top funeral directors can make $225,500. Some non-retail sales representatives can earn as much as $114,540, nearly double the national average. Operations managers, who already rank highly on the list, can make $132,537. As with any occupations, location factors heavily into how much you earn. (For example, major metropolitan areas will probably pay more than smaller towns.)
“The thing to keep in mind is that there are something like 50 million jobs out there that don’t require a bachelor’s degree and pay upwards of $40,000 a year,” says Harlow Unger, author of “But What If I Don’t Want to Go to College? A Guide to Success Through Alternative Education.”
He goes on to say that according to the U.S. Department of Labor, by 2010, almost two-thirds of all projected job openings will require only on-the-job training.
So while a college degree was de rigueur for the Baby Boom generation, that’s not necessarily the case now. In today’s highly technical and service-related market, workers are judged more on their skills than their sheepskins.
[Anthony Balderrama is a writer and blogger for CareerBuilder.com. He researches and writes about job search strategy, career management, hiring trends and workplace issues.]September 7, 2009 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #658236starwolfMember
Most hospitals that I have experience with would not hire a radiation therapist without an academic degree.
However, that is not what I was asking. I was asking about the attitudes of Hareidi Yeshivot toward college education. Not to provoke an argument, but because I want the information, and I do not wish to prejudge. I have some idea, but I am not sure, and perhaps my information is out-of-date. I imagine that people hon this forum could provide me with some information.September 7, 2009 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #658237
WOW. But come on, a Commercial pilot, doesnt need a degree? How can that be? So like I said, if it might get me a salary of $225,500, maybe I just become a funeral director :-/. (Pretty morbid, though.)September 7, 2009 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #658238
starwolf: Many don’t tolerate it while many others do accept it.September 7, 2009 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #658239EarlyBirdMember
Jothar “We must go back to kollel as it was implemented by the gedolim of Europe “
Who’s we? I can’t talk for everyone else. I just know that MY husband should stay in kollel as long as he wants. And let everyone else go to work.
I don’t think anyone would leave kollel just because there are too many kollel families. You leave kollel when you can’t afford it any more, not for the greater good.September 7, 2009 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #658240EarlyBirdMember
Mepal: I’m sure a pilot has to complete flight school, he just doesn’t need a degree.September 7, 2009 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #658241lesschumrasParticipant
You also need to be able to write and communicate effectively in ENGLISH for many of these positions. You may noy need a four year degree but most of the jobs you have listed require traing of one sort of the other. Youjust don’t walk in of the treet and start repairing elevators and operating nucler power plants.September 7, 2009 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #658242the.nurseMember
May i add another career to joseph’s list.. NURSE! I am an RN and i only have an associates degree (2yrs in college). Depending on where you work, salaries differ, but in NYC, they start at about 65- 70k.
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