September 7, 2009 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #658243
Early bird, Finish school-get a degree. Kinda’ goes together.September 7, 2009 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #658244
nurse, good. Now you’ll have what to buy me something with 🙂
Did BY open? I passed the high school and it looked like it was…September 7, 2009 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #658246
Some of these jobs may not require a regular 4 year degree, but they require at least a few years of school. There are training schools to get these degrees but they require you to stay in the program the entire time. You have to be able to prove your academic worth- able to communicate easily in English (writing and verbally) and pass certain entrance tests (essay, math, reasoning ect). Also you need a high school degree- Many frum high schools are not accredited!
OT and PT both do not require 4 years of undergrad to be able to enter the grad school, just the pre-requisite science and othermiscelaneous classes (depends on the school). They are each 2-3 years full time for the grad school. They make quite a bit as well.September 7, 2009 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #658247
Earlybird- just dont require the rest of us to pay your bills. If you want him to stay in kollel, fine, but please dont EXPECT us to pick up the tab. I would rather spend my tzeddeka money on organizations that rely on donations to do their mission and not on people who PREFER to do something regardless of the outcome.September 7, 2009 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #658250
Some careers are more Shabbos friendly than others.
A lot of those jobs listed by Joseph can present real Shimiras Shabbos problems.September 7, 2009 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #658251
And a lot of degree requiring jobs too are not Shabbos friendly. Therefore whether you have a degree or not, choose a job that is Shabbos friendly.September 7, 2009 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #658252
Joseph- But many degree-requiring jobs can be done at other times. Ex: Lawyers: the court is only open monday through friday. There is work that has to be done outside of courts and that can be done sunday or during the week ect. Other medical professionals, like OT, PT, doctors, dentists ect can choose their own hours to work or can arrange to take the hours that others dont want: sunday, goyish holidays ect. Jobs that are obtained through training programs are lower on the totem pole of job-hierarchy and have little choice on when to work. But these things differ based on the particular job or trade. Also, jobs that need little college education may attract a certain segment of the goyish population that we might not want to work with…
Back to a point discussed before: why are some parts of the frum world so against the men and women learning a trade/career? Yes, there are jobs that dont need a lot of schooling, but openings for some of these jobs are few and far between.September 7, 2009 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #658253
hss: Many lawyers, especially fresh out of law school, are expected to put in 7 days weeks. Higher paying jobs typically have higher expectations. Many of the well-paying non-college jobs I mentioned are at least as (if not more) Shabbos friendly as others.
BTW, the Chasidim are not known to be poorer than non-Chasidim. Many of them are B’H quite wealthy, in fact. (Take a look at Boro Park.) I’d venture that 95% of them never set foot in college.September 7, 2009 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #658255
“Many lawyers, especially fresh out of law school, are expected to put in 7 days weeks.”
That may be at the highest pressure law firms. Take an “in house” position at a large firm and you can have a “life”, although the pay is not as high.
Accounting, engineering and law appear to have plenty of “Shabbos friendly” opportunities. I can speak from direct experience for engineering.
The top 11 of the list of 25 by Joseph are relatively well paying in large part because the job requires you to be on call 7/24.September 8, 2009 12:50 am at 12:50 am #658256
Josh, you are incorrect. Very few of the top 11 or 25 from the CareerBuilder article are any less Shabbos friendly than other professional jobs. In fact I would venture to say on balance you will have a harder time being a Shabbos observant employee with a 4 year degree, than with the onces I mentioned.September 8, 2009 1:29 am at 1:29 am #658257
Josh- thank you… I think your post makes the case quite well.
Joseph- I think you are speaking from your personal bias and opinion and you fail to bring facts and/or evidence. Please give some reasons as to why you think that those jobs are more frum-friendly than any that are “with a four year degree”. By the way.. there are many ways to get that 4 year degree in less time and it still be worth something. Many chasidim (and others) who are not working but still have money come from a money-family. They own apartment buildings and collect rent, they own stores or real estate ect. It is very hard to break into that type of market without connections. I can’t just wish it and get a couple buildings the next day to own. It takes money to make money.September 8, 2009 1:43 am at 1:43 am #658258
hss: I still await your “evidence” for your assertions.
Many chasidim (and others) who are not working but still have money come from a money-family.
And how did their “money-family” become a “money-family”?
They own apartment buildings and collect rent, they own stores or real estate ect.
Ahhh. So you are starting to acknowledge there are other lucrative options other than a college education. Very well then.
It is very hard to break into that type of market without connections.
Even with bitachon and Hashem’s help? Did you try?
And I mentioned MANY other possibilities that require no college. Let us be honest and acknowledge college is not for everyone, and college is not necessary for everyone to make a respectable honest parnasa.September 8, 2009 2:06 am at 2:06 am #658259
1. Air traffic controller: $102,030
Planes fly on Saturday in the USA.
2. Funeral director: $79,517
The Malach HaMoves (Angel of Death) does not take Saturday off.
Hysterical families need “hand holding” immediately.
3. Operations manager: $77,839
4. Industrial production manager: $73,000
Production plants run continuously here in the USA.
5. Transportation manager: $72,662
6. Storage and distribution manager: $69,898
Trucks run Friday night & Saturday.
7. Computer technical support specialist: $67,689
11. Computer specialist: $59,480
When the system crashes Friday night, users will not wait until Saturday 9 PM.
8. Gaming manager: $64,880
Friday night and Saturday are probably the casinos’ busyest times.
9. First-line supervisor/manager of police and detective: $64,430
Crime does not take Shabbos off. Crime scenes need to be investigated in a timely manner.
10. Nuclear power reactor operator: $64,090
I believe Chernobyl occured 1 AM Saturday morning.September 8, 2009 2:32 am at 2:32 am #658260
Josh, You never worked in a 24/7 business that accommodated frum Yidden? You never heard of frum Computer tech’s, that work for a 24/7 data operations center? A frum EMT that works for a 24/7 city EMS, that allows Shabbos off?
They all can, and indeed legally must reasonably accommodate a religious Sabbath observer. Whether it is allowing an Air traffic controller off on Shabbos or allowing a Network Administrator for the 24/7 data center off on Shabbos.September 8, 2009 3:03 am at 3:03 am #658261
“Josh, You never worked in a 24/7 business that accommodated frum Yidden?”
Usually that is because the prospective employee has a hard to find skill which requires extensive training and at least a Bachelor’s degree.September 8, 2009 3:58 am at 3:58 am #658262
Yonasan Rosenblum wrote about that- it used to be (before the crash) that a good businessman could make major money without knowing much English just by being good with real estate.
Joseph, the length of the Slabodka kollel time is mentioned in sourced beyond Wikipedia. It’s just the easiest to quote here. Call up Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky Shlit”a and ask him how many years the Slabodka kollel was. There are also sources describing the original kollel of Rav Yisroel Salanter ZT”L.
However, Joseph, you are arguing that those who learn in kollel should stay there no matter the burden on the community, or no matter how burdensome they are on their own family, or no matter how many kids have to go to public school because the tuition got exorbitant to cover their kids. I’m not sure that Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L would agree with this. Derech Eretz Kodmah leTorah Chav Vov Doros…September 8, 2009 4:14 am at 4:14 am #658263
The CareerBuilder article I posted on the previous page of this thread, is a very recent article. And as you can read, it makes clear that whilst once upon a time a college degree was thought necessary for a financially rewarding career, that is no longer the case these days.September 8, 2009 4:50 am at 4:50 am #658264
Joseph: “The CareerBuilder article I posted on the previous page of this thread, is a very recent article. And as you can read, it makes clear that whilst once upon a time a college degree was thought necessary for a financially rewarding career, that is no longer the case these days. “
I know too many people who searched for a job for years until they realized that the only way to have a chance at a decent Parnasa is a degree. Most of the jobs posted above don’t have any/many openings for obviously frum people.September 8, 2009 5:03 am at 5:03 am #658265
Joseph, the Mishpacha article recently on Rabbi Moshe Chait mentioned that the Slabodka kollel was for 5 years. Unless you bring me a source that explicitly says otherwise, 5 years it is.
Joseph, how many of the jobs you mentioned are the type of job a Ben Torah could go into without a good knowledge of English or a high school degree? College may be unnecessary, but a proper command of the English language is imperative. Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz from project YES wrote a column a few months ago about someone who tries to hire frum people exclusively. His exam- they have to write a paragraph about themselves. he rejects 80% of his frum applicants. I’m not talking about spelling and using “syzygy” in a sentence, or even something akin to your rhetorically deft use of the word “whilst” to subtly imply that a college degree is an archaic quest. I’m talking about a basic English vocabulary and understanding of sentence structure. Furthermore, many of the jobs you mention do require training, even if not a 4 year degree. Finally, they all require some kind of entrance exam. The jobs are not just about saying “You want fries with that?”.
Nice rhetorical flourish using the word “whilst” with the mention of a college degree, by the way.September 8, 2009 5:56 am at 5:56 am #658266
“… a Ben Torah could go into without a good knowledge of English…
Nice rhetorical flourish using the word “whilst” with the mention of a college degree, by the way.”
And yet you lament my people’s command of our spoken tongue. When shall you ever comprehend…September 8, 2009 11:28 am at 11:28 am #658267
People can succeed without good spelling skills, the knowledge of language, or academic degrees.
Most important is a strong work ethic.
There still are too many people giving up before they begin, and who are defending a culture of dependency.September 8, 2009 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #658268
I actually agree with Joseph. The worth of a college degree is way overstated (and a little obsessed about), and anyone who is willing to work HARD (look at the laundry owners, or others who work 60-70 hrs a week) should be able to do OK (not pay tuition for ten children, but two or three perhaps in NYC at 5K each) without a degree.
Also realize that many of those being supported have family businesses to go into when the time comes, so education is not as much as an issue.
Joseph: Do you have any additional insight (besides for vouchers and fundraising) on how to prevent tuition from being so high (even 5K) so that a “normal” family with BH many children will not be required to ask for a tuition break?
Also did BYOBP open?September 8, 2009 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #658269
Joseph, what I meant by application, is that going into the world you generally encounter more situations which allow for keeping a variety of halachos than sitting all day learning in a beis medrash. So you aren’t losing out on keeping Torah. Someone who isn’t frum doesn’t have the opportunity…
Back to college – many of those professions require extensive training. Commercial airline pilot? Hundreds of hours of flight time, which is expensive. Most commercial airline pilots I’ve met or talked to have gone through the air force where they logged enough hours to qualify.
I think a college degree itself is not a requirement, but some training of sorts is. And a basic command of the english language. I am in no way an expert at all, but I do a lot of technical writing in my field, so I have to be basically competent.September 8, 2009 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #658270
Joseph, your people = my people. I learn in yeshiva every night and shmooze with my yeshivishe chevra on a regular basis. I’m not advocating the elimination of kollel, and I’m not advocating the elimination of yeshivas. Bnei Torah are even more involved with Yishuv Ha’olam than anyone in the work force. I’m merely advocating a return to the standard established by the European gedolim of the 1800’s, in order to solve the current crisis. I’m not in the same boat as those who want to eliminate yeshivas altogether, although perhaps in this kind of forum such nuances get lost, and I would be better off keeping silent than risk being lumped in with them. I am still waiting to hear a viable solution from you. Until you offer one, please refrain from criticizing mine (ehich is based on the gedolim of the previous generation) without offering a solution of your own.
As for English, I’m merely advocating what Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L used to say, in America you must know English and basic skills. This is what rabbi Yaakov Horowitz of Project YES has been pushing for as well. It is true that many were able to make it without any English skills and without a high school degree. However, you must have a basic math knowledge to calculate things like rates of return and profit, as well as a good business sense. You also correctly pointed out that skills separated from college are just as good. However, you must have those skills. Your English skills are atypical of yeshiva bochurim, as is your choice of ham radio and stamp collecting as hobbies, and your election to use the internet. Most yeshiva bochurim do not know what to do with a ham radio or how to use the internet. they are better off for this as well, as it’s easier to learn without distractions, but that’s irrelevant. The point is that neither you nor I are typical yeshiva bochurim, and trying to pass yourself off as one is a tad disingenuous. That said, I concur that a college education is not as important as real-woprld skills in getting a job.September 8, 2009 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #658271
GAW, yea they opened today.September 8, 2009 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #658272
Baruch Hashem.September 8, 2009 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #658273
…like you were afraid they wouldnt.September 8, 2009 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #658274
Perhaps to someone in Boro Park it was obvious. I still think it was nice (and uncertain) for the community to find someone to support the school. Perhaps some sort of Kavod and/or recognition should be given? Does anyone know who “saved the school”?
Will he save the school next year?September 8, 2009 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #658275
I’m not on the board so I wouldnt really know, although whoever did help the school get back onto their feet (albeit, somewhat) deserves recognition.September 8, 2009 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #658276
The school was NOT saved. Therefore no recognition was given. The Rabonim requested that the school open because so many children’s Jewish education is dependant on BYOBP.
As far as I know, the administration did not want to open, due to the fact that the same problems as before (no money) are still tremendous problems. The teachers still won’t be getting paid in time for Yom Tov.
Yes, some people stepped up and cleared their tuition. Yes, people gave at the Kumzitz some nice donations. Others stepped up and donated what they could. And this is a tremendous zchus for them. However, they are still waiting for that big donor to come along and bail them out of this terrible situation.September 8, 2009 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #658277
“As far as I know, the administration did not want to open”
Many schools are worth alot more closed than open for the owners.September 8, 2009 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #658278
Why Do I Even Bother:
The administration should ask the Rabbonim to take over, if they want to go against the Gadol who was asked(?) and told BYOBP to close. Who are these local Rabbonim to go against a Shaila asked to a Gadol? In addition, the administartive staff should only work with the understanding that they get paid before all others, similar to bankruptcy law that the workers who are liquidating the bankrupt entity get paid before all creditors (or perhaps take a lein on these “Rabbonim” or their homes). Who is anyone to tell these people to work without pay?
I finally read the Hamodia article (on their website). Very enlightening. It seems to me that much more cutting (positions) could be done if they were really desperate (or perhaps its not giving the full picture).September 8, 2009 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #658279
Worth alot more??
Yea, I’m sure Rabbi Shapiro and the rest of the administration would sleep better at night knowing that hundreds of people have no job, (even if you are not getting paid, having a chance at getting paid is better than not) and thousands of children have no school.
And there are no “owners” in this case.
Please.September 8, 2009 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #658280
I would imagine the bank would forclose if there were no funds, and no one would gain (except those who would then be able to get paying jobs, guilt-free).September 8, 2009 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #658281
Why Do I Even Bother:
Remember rule number one in business, the owner always gets fed first!
Working for free doesn’t constitute a “job”. Right now they are working as volunteers. Volunteer teachers ordinarily don’t make it through the year. Let the administration shluf gezunt until they come back from winter vacation!
This should be looked at as a bankruptcy filing in the sense that the administration must figure a way to right the ship, or sink.September 8, 2009 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #658282
Jothar: we don’t live in the 1800’s and can’t imitate what worked well for them. We have to follow what the Gedolim here and now decide is the best strategy for our current situation. Whatever they may decide.September 8, 2009 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #658283
I know that there was a plan to cut many positions there in an attempt to save the rest of the school, however it was met with fierce opposition from within the school staff and the plan was put aside. So in that aspect, they did fail themselves. It is unfortunate that people should have to lose their jobs, but in this case it would save many others.September 9, 2009 12:00 am at 12:00 am #658284
Jothar: “My people” was said in jest and with much “rhetorical flourish.”
To add to PM’s point, have you proposed your 1800’s “solution” to any of the Gedolim, or merely decided to blog about it?September 9, 2009 1:06 am at 1:06 am #658285
PM,” we don’t live in the 1800’s and can’t imitate what worked well for them. We have to follow what the Gedolim here and now decide is the best strategy for our current situation. Whatever they may decide. “
I’m just curious, then, why we imitate and continue here what worked well for them ( chalav yisroel, kitnyos,) and instead now decide the best strategy for our current situation.September 9, 2009 2:11 am at 2:11 am #658286
If parents knew that BYOBP may not open this year, why did people not rush to try to get their kids into another school? Were people all relying on someone else to pay for them? Were they depending on the generosity of “someone else” and “someone who is richer than I am” to pay??September 9, 2009 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #658287
Why Do I Even Bother:
They will sink their own ship. Every business fires workers when there is less demand. Just look at today’s economy. If BYOBP is ruled by the workers instead of the hanhala, the hanhala really should quit and see what happens (Who is John Gault!).
I didn’t think it possible, but I will feel even less bad if and when the school closes. They had the chance to save it, but didn’t have the guts to do so.
Joseph: I am still waiting on you for an idea.
Jothar: My understanding is that there were SOME (not all by a long shot) gedolim who decided that the talmidai chachomim of Europe needed to be repopulated by any means neccessary, creating a situation of “Eis La’asos”, and allowing everyone to accept public funds to only learn (as they “may” become a talmid chachom), not to prepare themselves for community service (which is the only Heter as per the Lechem Mishna (if I remember correctly) on the Rambam quoted on the subject), and not caring about the consequences. This view has become “Mainstream Yeshiva World”, with MO, Chassidim (I think) and others (including our family’s Rosh Yeshiva) rejecting this theory.
PM or Joseph: Can you confirm, or offer an alternate theory why this was allowed.September 9, 2009 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #658288
It was a high member of the hanhala who stopped the plan. Not as simple as you think.
This “Feeling even less bad” stupidity just makes you seem insensitive to something affecting thousands of others lives. Takes any point you might be making and just makes it childish.September 9, 2009 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #658289
Why Do I Even Bother:
Perhaps, but it brings out the point. I believe in planning for adverse events, and there seems (if there was, by all mean please prove me wrong) to have been little or none here. From the Hamodia article, they accepted everyone without payment and are now surpised they have no have no money to pay?
In addition, what gives that hanahla the right to ask for community funds to be an “employment agency” if the school does not need and can’t afford to pay the additional employees?
And once again, if they choose not to take the medicine, they will not get better. Also, feelings don’t come into play when dealing with halacha, which includes paying your suppliers and employees. I do feel somewhat bad for the employees who will not get paid (but not as bad as before your info). If I was one of them, I would consider quitting for a paying job.
I would love to be completly wrong in this case (Please tell me why I am), but it seems the school is (to use a harsh term) “committing suicide”, vs. taking the actions required. They are not even listening to the shaila which they themselves asked and were told to close!
You seem to be “in the know”, which I am not. Please tell us the facts.September 9, 2009 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #658290
They are listening to the shaila which they themselves asked. It was these same Rabonim who now told them to open. Seems pretty pointless to me to tell you the truth.
Yes, there are 2000 children who rely on their education, but they were also relying on it a few weeks ago when they told the school to advertise that they are not opening. I guess we cant ask on their decision. I dont know.
They accepted people without payment. True. But once again, this was after being told by Rabonim to take in these children. I guess they thought the community would pick up the slack? I dont know.
They technically use all their staff and need them. But in times like this, they should be combining classes and getting rid of alot of teachers and their salaries. In this case, the member of the hanhala who opposed this did indeed shoot everyone else in the foot.
On their side, they were promised tuition from alot of their paying customers and these people never came through. Additionally, there were alot of large pledges, some I believe from members of their own board, which never materialized. This could be because of the economy now. I am not placing blame, just laying out the facts.
The school opened today, but it really shouldn’t have.September 9, 2009 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #658291
seichel, since either they didn’t know just how bad it really was, how the danger was so ‘real’, or because they knew that the school just COULD NOT close. No matter what.September 9, 2009 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #658292
Why Do I Even Bother:
I thought they asked a “Gadol” (as posted earlier) not “same rabbonim”. My mistake 🙂
Otherwise, what made these “same rabbonim” change their minds? Have they guaranteed the salaries, perhaps by placing liens on their own homes? How did the halacha or metzius change from when the question was originally asked? I realize you may not know the answer.
How are they getting cash to pay their mortgage & suppliers? Or is it not just the teachers that are not being paid. Perhaps they should send a thank you note to Capitol One, who holds the mortgage (and assignment of rents) for not collecting, in Lieu of Payment? 🙂
I feel you have raised more questions than you have answered. Too many “I don’t know”s. That is fair, as (I assume) you are not Rabbi Shapiro?
Thank you either way.September 9, 2009 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #658293
Rabonim, Gedolim, whatever you want to call them. You saw who signed the letter that they advertised.
I dont know what made them change their minds.
They are not paying their suppliers. They are still being supplied only because these vendors remember when BYOBP was one of the only customers paying on time, each month. I personally know a vendor who is owed over 150,000 and is still supplying them.
I wasn’t looking to answer anything. There is no answer really.
And you assumed correctly that I am not Rabbi Shapiro.September 9, 2009 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #658294
Why Do I Even Bother:
I actually never saw the letter and I think I asked if anyone knows where it can be found online. Do you know where I can find it?
Yikes for the supplier. Tavo Alav Bracha.September 9, 2009 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #658295
Mepal- any school can close, so why could it “not close no matter what”?? It is just a school- others will be made if there is still a need. Just because it has been around for a long time, it doesnt mean that it has to stay open forever. Schools open, schools close. Many people here stated that a problem the school has is that the chasidim moved into the area. So maybe it has to move, or close, and other schools will sprout up in the demographically correct neighborhoods.September 9, 2009 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #658296
I love the John Gault reference!
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