Bas Cohen in Halacha

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  • #611437
    Seahorse
    Member

    Are there any rules for who a bas cohen should marry, kinda like there are laws for who a cohen can marry? Thanks.

    #1120970
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    There are no laws regarding who a bas Cohen may not marry*. As for whom she *should* marry, contact your LOR.

    The Wolf

    * Apart from those that apply to every Jewish woman, of course.

    #1120971

    I heard that it’s a chutzpah for a non cohen to marry a bat cohen, but it is permissible…

    #1120972
    MDG
    Participant

    The Gemara in Pesahim 49 says that a Bat Cohen should not marry an Am-haaretz. One of them could die. Rav Ovadia Yosef quotes this as Halacha.

    The Gemara also says that it’s best that a Cohen and Bat Cohen marry.

    #1120974
    Seahorse
    Member

    MDG – what do you mean “one of them could die?” That is a very extreme statement, please explain.

    There are not many cohenim, leviim around, am I really supposed to limit dating to only them? I have heard it is ok for me to marry a Torah scholar.

    #1120975

    I heard that as well, I just didn’t want to say it. A bat cohen should preferably marry a cohen. If he’s a non cohen, than at least he should be a Talmid Chacham. Bad things can happen to them otherwise. I think that it’s different nowadays, but idk.

    #1120976
    Seahorse
    Member

    What bad things? What qualifies someone as a talmid chacham in today’s world? Is is much worse to marry a talmid chacham than a Cohen for me?

    #1120977
    WIY
    Member

    Good luck finding guy in low 20s who can be called a Talmud Chacham while keeping a straight face.

    #1120978
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m gonna go with Wolf on this one. You need a talmid chacham who knows you to weigh whatever inyan there may be in marrying from a limited field vs. the practicality of being able to do so.

    #1120979
    Seahorse
    Member

    Ok.

    #1120980
    writersoul
    Member

    MDG: Everyone dies… it’s hard (if not impossible) to pin down why people die when they do.

    (Sorry, this is a sore subject for me just this second.)

    Yes, this is a nitpick- technically, what you said is pretty much what I heard on the subject.

    #1120981
    MDG
    Participant

    Here is the quote (Soncino translation) from the Gemara Pesahim 49A:

    For R. Johanan said: If the daughter of a priest [marries] an Israelite, their union will not be auspicious. What is it? Said R. Hisda: [She will be] either a widow or a divorced woman, or she will have no seed [children].

    In a Baraitha it was taught: He will bury her or she will bury him, or she will reduce him to poverty. But that is not so, for R. Johanan said: he who desires to become wealthy, let him cleave to the seed of Aaron, [for it is all the more]

    From what I remember from Rav Ovadia, the problem is only if a Bat Cohen marries an Am-Haaretz. If he’s a regular frum baal habayit – e.g. he works and regularly learns – then no problem. All the better if he’s more learned.

    #1120982
    MDG
    Participant

    Here is an online source for what I mentioned from Rav Ovadia:

    this is copied from halacha.com

    Is It Permissible For A Yisrael To Marry The Daughter of A Kohen

    There is interesting Gemara Pesachim on page 49. The Gemara says, [listen to the audio clip for the exact quote,] [listen to the audio clip for the actual negativities,]
    [listen to the audio clip for the exact quote,] that the above Gemara applies currently.

    #1120983
    oomis
    Participant

    If a bas Kohein were NOT permitted to marry a Yisrael, there would be no need for a halacha that states that the firstborn male child of a bas Kohein or bas Levi does not require a pidyon haben. It would be obvious that her bechor would not need a pidyon if she could only marry a Kohein or Levi. Therefore it HAS to follow that she MAY marry a Yisrael, in which case, the Torah tells us, her ben bechor nonetheless does not require pidyon because of her own status.

    #1120984
    oomis
    Participant

    There are many IDEALS in Jewish life. It is IDEAL for all men to be talmidei Chachomim and sit and learn. It is IDEAL for all Yidden to be frum. It is IDEAL for the entire world to see the Light of Torah. It is likewise ideal for a bas Kohein to marry a Talmid Chochom who is also a Kohein. But that does not mean that if one does not live the IDEAL existence, that it cannot still be a wonderful, Torah-filled life. IDEAL was Gan Eden. We do not live in an ideal world; we can only try to perfect it as best we can. There are plenty of guys around who are not Kohanim or Leviim, who are terrific. And a bas Kohein should seek out a terrific, Torah-observant zivug. Is the shidduch crisis not hard enough already, without putting further restrictions on the process?

    #1120985

    I believe based on my research that as a daughter of a kohen, a bas kohen is expected to not tarnish her father and the whole kehuna’s reputation.

    Therefore it is suggested that she marries a fellow child of a kohen or someone who is a Talmud chuchum ie someone who is up there.

    Not that it is the case but if a bas kohen DOES do something wrong in terms of relationships – there is a more severe punishment then the average yiddenet

    #1120986
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    All this discussion is nice, but, at the end of the day, a bas Kohen can marry anyone that a “regular” Jewish woman can marry.

    The Wolf

    #1120987
    MDG
    Participant

    Seahorse,

    It seems from your previous posts that you were engaged. I am sorry to hear that things didn’t work out. I will have you in mind the next time I daven and do Birkat Cohanim, tomorrow IY”H. May Hashem find you a great zivug soon.

    #1120988
    MDG
    Participant

    I was having a bad, unproductive day. Feeling a little depressed, I started davening Mincha in a bad mood with little kavana. Then I realized that I something to concentrate on, Seahorse. My mood and kavana changed instantly.

    #1120989
    newbee
    Member

    I found this thread based on my other discussion with daas yochid based on the gem we were discussing in pesachim.

    oomis, what you said cannot be correct “It is likewise ideal for a bas Kohein to marry a Talmid Chochom who is also a Kohein.”

    Anyway, I think this thread is a pretty good example how we dont take these things literally.

    #1120991
    oomis
    Participant

    What I was trying to say (apparently poorly) was that strictly based on what was being implied or stated in Pesachim, it would seem that the GEMARAH (not I) would view the ideal Bas-Kohein marriage as being to a Kohein is also a Talmid Chochom. Sorry that I did not make myself clearer. I do not personally feel that way. Maybe the ideal would be for her to marry a RICH Kohein who is a Talmid Chochom and a doctor (with no mother-in-law) 😉

    #1120992
    flowers
    Participant

    (with no mother-in-law) 😉

    That is an insult to all Jewish women.

    #1120993
    newbee
    Member

    “strictly based on what was being implied or stated in Pesachim”

    Im saying the gemara in pesachim would not view that as ideal. The gemara in pesachim later says that it is a bracha for a talmid chochom non-kohen to “attach themselves” so to speak to the seed of ahron by marrying a bas kohen so they have both torah and kehuna after. So it seems it would be ideal for such a yisroel or levi to marry a bas kohen according to the gem. What that means, take it as you will and how/if this applies today speak to your tom (trusted orthodox mentor). I just wanted to clarify the basic gem.

    #1120994
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Anyway, I think this thread is a pretty good example how we dont take these things literally.

    BS”D

    Besides, the Rambam has an extreme P’sak of who is considered to be a Talmid Chacham. From Issurei Biah 23:29 (copied from Mechon Mamre):

    ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????–??? ?? ?? ???, ???? ??? ???? ????: ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????. ??? ???? ??? ??? ????–??? ????? ??? ??? ????, ??? ????? ????? ???? ????: ??? ?????, ???? ?? ???? ????. ?????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??, ????? ?? ????? ?????–??? ?? ?? ???, ???? ?????? ?????; ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?????–???? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ????? ?? ????? ?????.

    The Rambam holds L’Halacha that a Talmid Chacham by definition does not have ??? ????? or ?????. As everyone is aware, Rubah D’rubah of people have fights and/or arguments in their homes (with Gedolim such as Rav Schlomo Zalman Aurbach as the exceptions). Therefore, the Talmid Chacham exclusion for a bas Kohen does not apply.

    With this, we can also understand why Chazal and the Rambam hold one should marry a Talmid Chacham exclusively, and why Rav Shteinman holds L’maase there are no Talmidei Chachomim in our generation (that this Halachah would apply).

    flowers – Oomis (as a MIL herself) was saying such “tongue in cheek”, hence the smiley face.

    #1120995
    longarekel
    Member

    lan’d there are talmidei chachamim in this generation. only they don’t advertise. those who know, know.

    #1120996
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    lan’d there are talmidei chachamim in this generation. only they don’t advertise. those who know, know.

    longarekel vs. Pashut P’shat in the Rambam and Rav Shteinman. I know which side I’d go with.

    That being said, I imagine there may be someone like Rav SZA in our generation that no one knows about, so we should start searching!

    #1120997
    longarekel
    Member

    Pashut pshat in the rambam can apply in any generation. And if rav shteinman actually said that, I respectfully disagree. The reasoning behind the rambam’s ruling applies at all times and comparitively speaking there are talmidei chachamim and amei haaretz today as well. One need not be on the level of rsz to qualify.

    #1120998
    MDG
    Participant

    “Anyway, I think this thread is a pretty good example how we dont take these things literally. “

    newbee,

    Perhaps one could say there are different levels of ideal.

    #1120999
    flowers
    Participant

    flowers – Oomis (as a MIL herself) was saying such “tongue in cheek”, hence the smiley face.

    I’m aware it was meant as a joke. There is nothing funny about a chosson or kallah not having a mother. It is never ideal. And it’s a joke in poor taste.

    #1121000
    golfer
    Participant

    Flowers, please don’t take everything so seriously.

    Oomis, is one of our Top 10 Favorite posters.

    I’m positive she meant no harm.

    We’re all aware we’d be spinsters (oops!… that word again…) without our mothers-in-law, and where would that leave our grandchildren?

    #1121001
    Avi K
    Participant

    ????? ???? ??? ???? ?

    ???? ?????

    (?) ??? ?????? ??????: ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?”? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ???’ ?????? ???? ?? ??? ????? (????’ ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????”?) ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??”? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ??”? ???”?:

    As for who is a talmid chacham in our time some say that it relative to the generation (and see Shulchan Aruch Even HaEzer 38):

    ???? ??[

    ?? ??? ???? ?????, ?? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ???????, ??????, ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ???:

    ???? ??

    ?? ??? ???? ???, ?? ??????? ???? ??? ????, ????? ??? ????? ?????, ??? ????, ??????:

    #1121002
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Avi K. FYI comes from a Gemorah Kiddushin, and “talmid” plus “chacham” does not equal “Talmid Chacham”.

    The Rambam that I brought before is explicit in a qualification of who is a talmid chacham for the purposes of having your daughter marry him.

    ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????, ????? ?? ????? ?????

    #1121003
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s not said as a definition, it’s said as a reason.

    #1121004
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I agree with golfer.

    #1121005
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY – It’s a Scotsman.

    #1121006
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    True.

    #1121007
    newbee
    Member

    “Anyway, I think this thread is a pretty good example how we dont take these things literally. “

    “newbee,

    Perhaps one could say there are different levels of ideal.”

    I dont understand how what you quoted is related to what you said after. There can certainly be two ideal things but I dont think there is a way to say this one is more ideal than that.

    Thats why I said after talk to your TOM

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